DIS: Re: BUS: Future of Agora
On 19 June 2016 at 23:13, omd wrote: > It’s not that I want it to be over. My interest, presumably like many other > players’, has waxed and waned over the years, and after such a long hiatus I > for one would probably be pretty active if there were a new spurt of > activity. If some of the usual cadre of longtime players showed up, and we > could somehow recruit a bunch of new players, Agora could rise again. Belatedly joining this thread. I'm just starting a long university vacation and have very little to do until October, so I'm willing to join in with a new burst of activity. However, I've overcommitted and dropped out several times in the past, so I'd be wary of taking on too much responsibility. I don't have the programming skills that many Agorans do, but I can help with parts two and three of your masterplan (simplifying/explaining the rules and getting the word out). > But that’s really the issue - new players. We’ve never really been > effective in actively recruiting new players, as long as I’ve been around, > despite proposals over the years (may I call them slacktivist? :) to solve > the problem by defining an office responsible for solving it. I also remember proposing that there be some economic benefit for recruiting a player. This never produced results either. > We have to use methods that will let us reach a large audience of > potentially interested people, not just rely on word of mouth, which will > never work very well in our player count range. IIRC, at least one of > Agora’s big bursts came after getting linked on Slashdot. Today there are > Reddit and Hacker News, and Agora might well reach the frontpage of an > appropriate subreddit or of HN, if submitted, but those aren’t sustainable. > As an alternative, why not go for real Internet ads? I could pay for a > Reddit ad campaign, or even Google ads. Target programmers. Of course we’d > need to improve the website first, as I described above. Happy to chip in a little towards advertising. Perhaps we could set up a donations page? I understand that there are certain things about nomic which attract programmers, but is there not also a certain element of like recruiting like? I'm sure there are other demographics (law students, philosophers?) likely to be interested, and Agora would probably benefit from a little diversification. The web interface is probably a prerequisite for getting the less technically-inclined involved, though. Charles
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Future of Agora
I started watching just at the time that the drop off occurred. My plan was to lurk for a while before plunging into the scary culture-water. Ironically, this (possible) revival is starting up just as I'm about to be unable to watch/participate in it for a while. -gp > On Jun 20, 2016, at 4:09 AM, Noé Rubinstein wrote: > > FYI, the email arrived in the spam folder of my GMail account :( > > As for actually reviving Agora, I'm in the category of players who joined the > game once or twice, but ended up doing nothing, and I do not really have a > suggestion on what to do from here. If there was such a plan to revive Agora, > I might join again, with hopefully more success than on my previous tries, > but that's about it. > > OTOH I've been a long time watcher and even if most of the time I ignored the > game, each time I actually took some time to follow the current events or to > read some of the rules it has been a source of great enjoyment. IOW, thanks > for everything! > >> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 12:13 AM, omd wrote: >> So, on the off-chance you haven’t heard already, over the last few days >> there’s been quite a hubbub in the cryptocurrency community, owing to the >> theft of around $50 million in “ether” (the Ethereum system’s currency) from >> something called The DAO (Decentralized Autonomous Organization). Brief >> explanation: The DAO, like all Ethereum “smart contracts”, is in fact a >> small piece of code launched into the Ethereum blockchain. Once a contract >> is launched, anyone can pay a small fee to call any public function it >> declares, specifying the arguments and potentially including a payment of >> some amount of ether; and the contract’s code is executed to determine how >> it should react, potentially including updating its internal state, sending >> people ether, and/or performing its own function calls on other contracts. >> The actual program execution occurs on the machine of any “miner” who wants >> to earn money by dedicating their CPU resources to the network: the code and >> state is public, so anyone can execute it; the Ethereum VM is deterministic, >> so everyone will agree on the result; and the blockchain achieves >> decentralized consensus on the new state of the system. >> >> Once launched, a contract’s code cannot be changed by anyone, even the >> creator - unless it contains explicit provisions for self-amendment, which >> many do. I’m a bit embarrassed that I didn’t realize, until seeing it >> mentioned on Hacker News, that this amounts to a codenomic. An improved >> codenomic, which doesn’t have to trust an administrator to host the service >> without meddling. And in the case of the DAO, a codenomic in which tens of >> millions of dollars were invested - which turned out to have a trivial >> vulnerability allowing anyone to steal all the money. Which someone did, >> and now there’s a big philosophical debate about intent vs. letter, soft >> forks, and all sorts of other things you can Google. >> >> Sorry, I’m being a bit long-winded. I’m not here to propose starting a >> nomic on Ethereum, although that might be fun (to make a contract designed >> to be a game rather than the custodian of a significant amount of money), >> and I think there have been attempts to do so already. >> >> But this email is titled “Future of Agora”. And I’m not suggesting Agora >> become a codenomic. Rather, hearing about the DAO finally gave me the >> impulse to write what I’ve wanted to write for a while - to point out that, >> for the nth time, Agora is dead. But this time, really really dead. >> >> I made a graph of mailing list activity by month: >> >> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19e6QdFa6-AtFDc4sRKe1jVKCa4rS_fF0gDWwSLD7Y7k/edit#gid=1646044457 >> >> I joined in April 2007. In retrospect, it was a good time to join: the >> start of a yearslong trend of thousands of messages per month, the biggest >> period of activity in Agora’s history since the mailing list started. After >> that things declined a bit, but still no single month fell under 100, and in >> 2013, due to the bidecennial, there was another spurt lasting about half a >> year. >> >> Since then, for three years or so, we’ve muddled along without much >> activity, with the message count often falling under 100 or even under 50. >> And now, for the first time ever since 2002, it’s reached 0 - for two full >> months in a row, April and May, plus June (not in the chart) up to today. >> >> When I joined it was my 15th birthday. Now I’m 24. >> >> Does there ever come a time to call a game over, to put Agora out of its >> misery? >> >> It’s not that I want it to be over. My interest, presumably like many other >> players’, has waxed and waned over the years, and after such a long hiatus I >> for one would probably be pretty active if there were a new spurt of >> activity. If some of the usual cadre of longtime players showed up,
DIS: Re: BUS: Future of Agora
On Sun, 19 Jun 2016, omd wrote: > We have to use methods that will let us reach a large audience of potentially > interested people, not just rely on word of mouth, which will never > work very well in our player count range. IIRC, at least one of Agora’s big > bursts came after getting linked on Slashdot. Today there are Reddit > and Hacker News, and Agora might well reach the frontpage of an appropriate > subreddit or of HN, if submitted, but those aren’t sustainable. As an > alternative, why not go for real Internet ads? I could pay for a Reddit ad > campaign, or even Google ads. Target programmers. Of course we’d > need to improve the website first, as I described above. What are the pros/cons of starting by using a Reddit sub as a straightforward additional forum? Details of whether it's public/discussion on Agora side and public/private and Mods on the Reddit side can be hashed out. But if it's a simple step, we can set up first then use it as the landing stage for newbies... Oh heck, I've just made a sub: https://www.reddit.com/r/agoranomic Let's see if anyone uses it. (in case anyone's curious, made it from a lightly-used alt not my main reddit username :) ).
DIS: Re: BUS: Future of Agora
On Sun, 19 Jun 2016, omd wrote: > Does there ever come a time to call a game over, to put Agora out of its > misery? When there's a committed amount of Officers/GMs/a Speaker (or whatever) it works, regardless (almost) of complexity of rules. When there's not, it doesn't matter how simple the rules are, IMO. In other nomic games I've followed (from very simple rulesets), they've 99% crapped out when the Officer(s) In Charge crap out. I don't doubt, for example, if someone today caught up the Ruleset, proposals, and judgements, that we'd pick up again somewhat. Recognizing this, I think we've made the mistake several times of having a new player join, then encouraging them too soon to become an officer, then when they overcommit and disappear, it's a setback. So I wouldn't put too much hope on New Players until there's at least a few hands that go up of "yes I'd be willing to help run this" for a while. > If it’s going to be rebirth, I want a real process. As a case in point, I bet if a Leader took it upon themselves to start the process you suggest through the straightforward means (proposals and what not) that others would follow. The question isn't "could we get new players again" but "could we get enough officers for stability"? I was hoping to attempt a revival around the time of Agora's Birthday, just by getting stuff up to date. I was thinking the Big Proposal would be, in fact, gutting the complex Officer system to a simple "the Speaker does everything... BUT the Speaker can appoint set Delegates for some duties". But that's the question: is there a reliable Leader/Team that's willing to do this? I'd be in, but not without a small similarly committed group... Also, I agree with you that 20 is about the sweet spot, and it's technology dependent (i.e. 20 is what you need for activity at the speed of email, and more than that strains manual tracking/email methods). Heck, even at our side, helper apps are needed (e.g. I think CotC role fell apart when no system was put in place to replace Murphy's database).
DIS: Re: BUS: Future of Agora
FYI, the email arrived in the spam folder of my GMail account :( As for actually reviving Agora, I'm in the category of players who joined the game once or twice, but ended up doing nothing, and I do not really have a suggestion on what to do from here. If there was such a plan to revive Agora, I might join again, with hopefully more success than on my previous tries, but that's about it. OTOH I've been a long time watcher and even if most of the time I ignored the game, each time I actually took some time to follow the current events or to read some of the rules it has been a source of great enjoyment. IOW, thanks for everything! On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 12:13 AM, omd wrote: > So, on the off-chance you haven’t heard already, over the last few days > there’s been quite a hubbub in the cryptocurrency community, owing to the > theft of around $50 million in “ether” (the Ethereum system’s currency) > from something called The DAO (Decentralized Autonomous Organization). > Brief explanation: The DAO, like all Ethereum “smart contracts”, is in fact > a small piece of code launched into the Ethereum blockchain. Once a > contract is launched, anyone can pay a small fee to call any public > function it declares, specifying the arguments and potentially including a > payment of some amount of ether; and the contract’s code is executed to > determine how it should react, potentially including updating its internal > state, sending people ether, and/or performing its own function calls on > other contracts. The actual program execution occurs on the machine of any > “miner” who wants to earn money by dedicating their CPU resources to the > network: the code and state is public, so anyone can execute it; the > Ethereum VM is deterministic, so everyone will agree on the result; and the > blockchain achieves decentralized consensus on the new state of the system. > > > Once launched, a contract’s code cannot be changed by anyone, even the > creator - unless it contains explicit provisions for self-amendment, which > many do. I’m a bit embarrassed that I didn’t realize, until seeing it > mentioned on Hacker News, that this amounts to a codenomic. An improved > codenomic, which doesn’t have to trust an administrator to host the service > without meddling. And in the case of the DAO, a codenomic in which tens of > millions of dollars were invested - which turned out to have a trivial > vulnerability allowing anyone to steal all the money. Which someone did, > and now there’s a big philosophical debate about intent vs. letter, soft > forks, and all sorts of other things you can Google. > > > Sorry, I’m being a bit long-winded. I’m not here to propose starting a > nomic on Ethereum, although that might be fun (to make a contract designed > to be a game rather than the custodian of a significant amount of money), > and I think there have been attempts to do so already. > > > But this email is titled “Future of Agora”. And I’m not suggesting Agora > become a codenomic. Rather, hearing about the DAO finally gave me the > impulse to write what I’ve wanted to write for a while - to point out that, > for the nth time, Agora is dead. But this time, really really dead. > > > I made a graph of mailing list activity by month: > > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19e6QdFa6-AtFDc4sRKe1jVKCa4rS_fF0gDWwSLD7Y7k/edit#gid=1646044457 > > > I joined in April 2007. In retrospect, it was a good time to join: the > start of a yearslong trend of thousands of messages per month, the biggest > period of activity in Agora’s history since the mailing list started. > After that things declined a bit, but still no single month fell under 100, > and in 2013, due to the bidecennial, there was another spurt lasting about > half a year. > > > Since then, for three years or so, we’ve muddled along without much > activity, with the message count often falling under 100 or even under 50. > And now, for the first time ever since 2002, it’s reached 0 - for two full > months in a row, April and May, plus June (not in the chart) up to today. > > > When I joined it was my 15th birthday. Now I’m 24. > > > Does there ever come a time to call a game over, to put Agora out of its > misery? > > > It’s not that I want it to be over. My interest, presumably like many > other players’, has waxed and waned over the years, and after such a long > hiatus I for one would probably be pretty active if there were a new spurt > of activity. If some of the usual cadre of longtime players showed up, and > we could somehow recruit a bunch of new players, Agora could rise again. > > > But that’s really the issue - new players. We’ve never really been > effective in actively recruiting new players, as long as I’ve been around, > despite proposals over the years (may I call them slacktivist? :) to solve > the problem by defining an office responsible for solving it. They’ve > always just seemed to show up one by one, not that often, maybe as a friend > of a
