Re: DIS: To repair listlessness v0.2
On Mon, 2010-08-16 at 17:20 -0600, Sean Hunt wrote: This leads to another question: Does Win by Clout really need to be repealed? I'd say so. The odds of it being triggered are practically nil except in the event of a scam (actually, that's basically the case right now too). It was good when it was possible to win legitimately with it (as both ais523 and I did). I kind-of like the idea of leaving it there for future voting systems; it's a win that has a different meaning with each voting system that comes along. (Not to mention, that both your and my wins by Clout had scam elements, with both of us using submarine inactivity contracts, and me tipping people up to Alpha just before the month ended.) -- ais523
DIS: To repair listlessness v0.2
Proto: Reinventing The List v0.2 (AI-2) [Changes: 1. Made cost of list movement equal to number of votes over which one jumps. Makes it very expensive to get to the top of the list unless the Speaker puts yo7u there. 2. The Speaker's position becomes very like the Grand Poobah in the last caste system; a lot of power to determine voting once per month. This was a Very Interesting Power (remember the competition for that position) and so it's a good monthly perk for winning. 3. Moved the office-tracking to the granulator (associated with Leadership, I suppose, and I'm willing to get it started). 4. Made the theme Court and Courtiers (not super-inspired, but hey). ] Create the following rule, The List of Succession, Power=2: The List of Succession is an ordered list of all current players except the current Speaker. The first (1st) position is the highest (top) position on the list and the last (Nth position, where N is the number of players on the list), is the lowest (bottom) position. The List of Succession is part of the Granulator's weekly report, and is self-ratifying. When a person is moved up P places on the list, they are moved to be just above (immediately higher than) the person P places ahead of em on the list - if there are not P players higher than em, e is moved to the top of the list. When a person is moved down P places on the list, they are moved to be just below (immediately lower than) the person B places behind em on the list - if there are not B players lower than em, e is moved to the bottom of the list. Movement on the list is Secured. Any attempt to move the Speaker on the list fails, as e is not on the list. Whenever a player other than the Speaker is not on the list, or eir position on the list is found by judicial declaration to be UNDETERMINED or UNDECIDABLE, e is added to the list below the lowest player whose position on the list is known. Increase the power of Rule 402 (Identity of the Speaker) to 2. Amend Rule 402 (Identity of the Speaker) to read: A Coronation (crowning) is initiated by announcing that a player other than the Speaker is crowned as Speaker, provided the rules explicitly permit the announcing player (the crowner) to crown another player (the Speaker-to-be). When an Coronation is initiated, the current Speaker is removed from office and placed on the bottom of the list of succession, and immediately thereafter the Speaker-to-be is removed from the list of succession and becomes the Speaker. If no player has been crowned in the previous 90 days, or the current Speaker is inactive or the office is vacant, than any player CAN crown the highest active player on the List of Succession. Destiny is a player switch tracked by the Granulator with values Unmarked (default) and Marked. When a player wins the game, e becomes Marked. If no player has been crowned in the previous 14 days, than any player CAN crown any single specified Marked player. When a player is crowned, e becomes Unmarked. [When multiple players win, they can cycle through speakership at 7-day intervals with order of winning not mattering] Increase the power of Rule 103 (Role of the Speaker) to 2. Amend Rule 103 (Role of the Speaker) to read: The Speaker is an imposed office and a figurehead of Agora. The Speaker is a person who has proven themselves to be worthy of the title, and for a time can direct Agoran government affairs. If e has not already done so this month, or if e hasn't done so since e gained office, the Speaker CAN Bestow Favors, by announcement. An announcement Bestowing Favors is a list of other Players, one (different) name per Courtier position. The bestowing of favors has the effect of moving each named player to the indicated courtier position on the List of Succession. Amend Rule 2255 (Cards) by changing its title to The Court Amend Rule 2255 to read: A rule with a power equal to or greater than this rule may associate a Position Name with numbered position on the List of Succession. The player occupying a named position on the list is considered to be the holder of the names position and have the powers and duties described by the Rules for that position. The holder of a so-named position is a Member of the Court, (a Courtier). Additionally, a rule with a power equal to or greater than this rule may associate an integer Influence Level with a specific numbered position on the List of Succession. The
Re: DIS: To repair listlessness v0.2
On 08/16/2010 04:28 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: 3. Moved the office-tracking to the granulator (associated with Leadership, I suppose, and I'm willing to get it started). I think this belongs to the Herald and, honestly, Herald is currently in track-the-random-bits-of-the-gamestate-no-one-else-does mode, so making it a more active office would probably be good. Any attempt to move the Speaker on the list fails, as e is not on the list. Might as well say any player not on the list, given the next paragraph. Whenever a player other than the Speaker is not on the list, or eir position on the list is found by judicial declaration to be UNDETERMINED or UNDECIDABLE, e is added to the list below the lowest player whose position on the list is known. Judicial declarations need not reference specific judgments, it would probably be clearer by saying 'unknown or ambiguous' or something similar. Increase the power of Rule 402 (Identity of the Speaker) to 2. Amend Rule 402 (Identity of the Speaker) to read: A Coronation (crowning) is initiated by announcing that a player other than the Speaker is crowned as Speaker, provided the rules explicitly permit the announcing player (the crowner) to crown another player (the Speaker-to-be). Initiating something instantaneous is a bit weird. Destiny is a player switch tracked by the Granulator with values Unmarked (default) and Marked. When a player wins the game, e becomes Marked. If no player has been crowned in the previous 14 days, than any player CAN crown any single specified Marked player. When a player is crowned, e becomes Unmarked. [When multiple players win, they can cycle through speakership at 7-day intervals with order of winning not mattering] 7 or 14? I like that there may be a ratrace to crown other people so as to get the Speakership when the dust settles. Also, Fated or Unfated? If e has not already done so this month, or if e hasn't done so since e gained office, the Speaker CAN Bestow Favors, by announcement. An announcement Bestowing Favors is a list of other Players, one (different) name per Courtier position. The bestowing of favors has the effect of moving each named player to the indicated courtier position on the List of Succession. If ever the Court becomes defined so that it is not the consecutive top N positions, then exactly how to move everyone simultaneously might be ambiguous. I haven't looked through it. A rule with a power equal to or greater than this rule may associate a Position Name with numbered position on the List of Numbered seems bad here. Additionally, a rule with a power equal to or greater than this rule may associate an integer Influence Level with a specific numbered position on the List of Succession. Numbered seems even worse here The following positions on the List of Succession are named, and have inidicated Influence Levels. All other positions on the list have an Influence Level of 2. This isn't a numbered position! First Position: Justiciar. Influence Level: 10 Position: The Justiciar is granted particular abilities or privileges associated with the judicial process as described elsewhere in the Rules. Why does the Justiciar get such high votes? Right now, I think it's pretty clear that the Chief Whip is the most coveted position, so perhaps there should be an equivalent Courtier with a really high voting limit and no other powers. Second Position: Grand Vizier Influence Level: 7 Position: The Minister without Portfolio CAN, With Notice, perform any action that an officer both CAN and MAY (or SHALL) perform by virtue of holding that office. This should totally be the guy who gets to start coups. Also, MwoP is still there. Fourth Position: Head Gardener. Influence Level: 5 Position: the Head Gardener CAN rubberstamp a specified decision by announcement. I want to be the Head Gardener. Also, this made me think that the position of the guy with lots of votes should be the First Minister, in honor of two of Asimov's best characters. Nth Position, where N is the last position on the list: Privateer. Influence Level: 7 Position: The Privateer CAN begin a coup by announcing the ceremonial shelling of the palace, provding no coup has been resolved in the last 14 days. The effects of the coup (if any) are as described elsewhere in the rules. First, I don't think this should be last; this means a former Speaker is automatically the Privateer. Second, I don't like way of defining it - second-from-last position should do, or at least N, where N is the number of positions on the
Re: DIS: To repair listlessness v0.2
Kerim Aydin wrote: Proto: Reinventing The List v0.2 (AI-2) AI should be 2.1 because of Create the following Rule, Leader Bootstrap, power-2.1:, shouldn’t it? I like most of the idea, but I don’t want DICE rolls here. The Rebbel system should work differently. 1/3 of all active Players could be a nice value? Additionally, couldn’t Leader Bootstrap work without a Rule? I don’t like these Do something, wait and repeal me-rules. Besides, the current government should occupy the first positions. And I really like the current voting system. Maybe we could combine Chamber with this list? For example: Player who occupy a Position with modulo 3 = 0, 1 or 2 have a green, red or purple chamber, respectively and the Speaker can chose eir Chamber. The Courtiers could have some additional advantage, but not that much, because they have already some special power. The voting advantage in your portosal is - in my opinion - much too high. This leads to another question: Does Win by Clout really need to be repealed? -- Keba
Re: DIS: To repair listlessness v0.2
On 08/16/2010 05:06 PM, Keba wrote: Kerim Aydin wrote: Proto: Reinventing The List v0.2 (AI-2) AI should be 2.1 because of Create the following Rule, Leader Bootstrap, power-2.1:, shouldn’t it? I like most of the idea, but I don’t want DICE rolls here. The Rebbel system should work differently. 1/3 of all active Players could be a nice value? Agora has a system for random rolls, and generally accepts them if they aren't too frequent (see, for instance, the team rolls). I like the idea of a game of chance in Agora; gameplay is far too regular. Additionally, couldn’t Leader Bootstrap work without a Rule? I don’t like these Do something, wait and repeal me-rules. Besides, the current government should occupy the first positions. And I really like the current voting system. Maybe we could combine Chamber with this list? For example: Player who occupy a Position with modulo 3 = 0, 1 or 2 have a green, red or purple chamber, respectively and the Speaker can chose eir Chamber. The Courtiers could have some additional advantage, but not that much, because they have already some special power. The voting advantage in your portosal is - in my opinion - much too high. Nah, Chamber doesn't work that well anyways. This leads to another question: Does Win by Clout really need to be repealed? I'd say so. The odds of it being triggered are practically nil except in the event of a scam (actually, that's basically the case right now too). It was good when it was possible to win legitimately with it (as both ais523 and I did). -coppro
Re: DIS: To repair listlessness v0.2
On Mon, 16 Aug 2010, Sean Hunt wrote: waitwhat? This does nicely solve the rapid Court manipulation problem, I think. I would give you a prop for this idea, but I'd end up taking it from you for suggesting the current system, so it's a wash. Hey now hooold on there...the last system but one for succession was a Work of Art, some other folks beat it to pieces with platonicness or something, I said so at the time, but no...
Re: DIS: To repair listlessness v0.2
On Mon, 16 Aug 2010, Sean Hunt wrote: [When multiple players win, they can cycle through speakership at 7-day intervals with order of winning not mattering] 7 or 14? I like that there may be a ratrace to crown other people so as to get the Speakership when the dust settles. Does that mean you prefer 7? It was 7 in the original and I changed it to 14 (but forgot to edit the comment).
Re: DIS: To repair listlessness v0.2
On 08/16/2010 05:32 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: On Mon, 16 Aug 2010, Sean Hunt wrote: waitwhat? This does nicely solve the rapid Court manipulation problem, I think. I would give you a prop for this idea, but I'd end up taking it from you for suggesting the current system, so it's a wash. Hey now hooold on there...the last system but one for succession was a Work of Art, some other folks beat it to pieces with platonicness or something, I said so at the time, but no... I voted for it because at any time, I didn't have a clue who the Speaker was because it was that confusing. -coppro
Re: DIS: To repair listlessness v0.2
On 08/16/2010 05:36 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: On Mon, 16 Aug 2010, Sean Hunt wrote: [When multiple players win, they can cycle through speakership at 7-day intervals with order of winning not mattering] 7 or 14? I like that there may be a ratrace to crown other people so as to get the Speakership when the dust settles. Does that mean you prefer 7? It was 7 in the original and I changed it to 14 (but forgot to edit the comment). I prefer 14, given that the switch (good idea) makes it easy to track. -coppro
Re: DIS: To repair listlessness v0.2
coppro wrote: Nah, Chamber doesn't work that well anyways. What about that change that ehird suggested, where you got 5 votes on some chamber other than your own?
Re: DIS: To repair listlessness v0.2
On 08/16/2010 11:05 PM, Ed Murphy wrote: coppro wrote: Nah, Chamber doesn't work that well anyways. What about that change that ehird suggested, where you got 5 votes on some chamber other than your own? I'm a fan. I suppose we could leave it in with this proposal - though it would mean changing the influence mechanic somewhat and I'm a fan of its current form. -coppro
