Re: DIS: a relief valve

[Nic Evans]

Combining this idea with a separate discussion: Make the Speaker
electable, but the only valid options are people with a certain karma
threshold. If the current holder drops below that, e can be impeached.


On 09/13/17 14:25, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>
> [Talked about several times recently, but inspired by Quazie's apology - we 
> need a 
> formal way to express approval/disapproval short of deregistration and 
> crimes, IMO].
>
> Proposal draft
>
> Create the following Rule, Karma:
>
>   Karma is a person switch tracked by the Herald, with a default of 0 and 
>   with any integer being a possible value.
>
>   A Player CAN publish a Notice of Honour.  For a Notice of Honour to be
>   valid, it must:
>1.  Be the first Notice of Honour that player has published in the
>current week;
>2.  Specify any other player to gain karma, and provide a reason 
> for
>specifying that player; and
>3.  Specify any player to lose karma, and provide a reason for
>specifying that player.
>
>   When a valid Notice of Honour is published, the player specified to gain
>   karma has eir karma flipped to be one integer higher than it was, and 
> the
>   player specified to lose karma has eir karma flipped to be one integer
>   lower than it was.
>
> [can't remember, can we use natural language like "increase by 1" and 
> "decrease
> by 1" for integer/natural switches?]
>
>   - Any player with a karma of 5 or greater is a Samurai.
>
>   - Any player with a karma of -5 or less is a (Japanese term for serf?).
>
>   - The player with the highest karma (if any) is the Shogun.
>
>   - The player with the lowest karma (if any) is the Honourless Worm.
>
>
> [Future rewards for holding these positions possible].
>
> [Once per week allows people to express satisfaction/dissatisfaction in a 
> meaningful
> way without it being a true "piling on"].
>
>
>




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Re: DIS: a relief valve

[Cuddle Beam]

On a related note for thematics, the Shogun was a warlord who was in power
because of military-into-political might, not really because of honor or
anything. The "formal" ruler was the Emperor but he kinda didn't do
anything. The Shogun was the real person in control.

On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 9:58 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> Thanks!  If you were picking one, which would you pick?  (And what's the
> singular
> version of that, does it match "is a Samurai" as both singular and plural)
>
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Josh T wrote:
> > The Japanese term for a (western) serf is *noudo*, literally meaning
> farm servant. If you want something from the historical Japanese caste
> system, since they took after Confucian ideas, peasant was was actually
> > the highest commoner class (above craftsmen and merchants); the outcasts
> of the Japanese feudal system were the *eta* (historical name, somewhat
> derogatory today, means "full of defilement"), *hinin*
> > ("non-humans"), or the modern politically correct term in English,
> *burakumin* ("hamlet people", referring to how they were exiled from towns
> and cities to have their own hamlets). Hopefully that helped.
> > 天火狐
> >
> > On 13 September 2017 at 15:38, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >   On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> >   >   - Any player with a karma of -5 or less is a (Japanese
> term for serf?).
> >
> >   Just as an addendum, if 天火狐 or anyone with better knowledge of
> Japanese
> >   feudal/cultural terms than me wants to suggest flavor improvements
> (in English
> >   alphabet please), I'd gratefully add them.  Maybe we should call
> the whole
> >   thing a tea ceremony...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: DIS: a relief valve

[Josh T]

Japanese as a general rule doesn't distinguish between singular and plural,
and English tends to keep the original language's plurals. It's one piece
of sushi, two pieces of sushi etc.; one samurai, two samurai, etc.

I'd probably pick eta because it's historical and short. We can pretend
people are Greek letters if some future person gets offended.

I do agree there should be some way to "recenter" the karma spread. I don't
have a good suggestion at the moment as to how to accomplish this.

天火狐

On 13 September 2017 at 15:58, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> Thanks!  If you were picking one, which would you pick?  (And what's the
> singular
> version of that, does it match "is a Samurai" as both singular and plural)
>
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Josh T wrote:
> > The Japanese term for a (western) serf is *noudo*, literally meaning
> farm servant. If you want something from the historical Japanese caste
> system, since they took after Confucian ideas, peasant was was actually
> > the highest commoner class (above craftsmen and merchants); the outcasts
> of the Japanese feudal system were the *eta* (historical name, somewhat
> derogatory today, means "full of defilement"), *hinin*
> > ("non-humans"), or the modern politically correct term in English,
> *burakumin* ("hamlet people", referring to how they were exiled from towns
> and cities to have their own hamlets). Hopefully that helped.
> > 天火狐
> >
> > On 13 September 2017 at 15:38, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >   On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> >   >   - Any player with a karma of -5 or less is a (Japanese
> term for serf?).
> >
> >   Just as an addendum, if 天火狐 or anyone with better knowledge of
> Japanese
> >   feudal/cultural terms than me wants to suggest flavor improvements
> (in English
> >   alphabet please), I'd gratefully add them.  Maybe we should call
> the whole
> >   thing a tea ceremony...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: DIS: a relief valve

[Kerim Aydin]

Thanks!  If you were picking one, which would you pick?  (And what's the 
singular
version of that, does it match "is a Samurai" as both singular and plural)

On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Josh T wrote:
> The Japanese term for a (western) serf is *noudo*, literally meaning farm 
> servant. If you want something from the historical Japanese caste system, 
> since they took after Confucian ideas, peasant was was actually
> the highest commoner class (above craftsmen and merchants); the outcasts of 
> the Japanese feudal system were the *eta* (historical name, somewhat 
> derogatory today, means "full of defilement"), *hinin*
> ("non-humans"), or the modern politically correct term in English, 
> *burakumin* ("hamlet people", referring to how they were exiled from towns 
> and cities to have their own hamlets). Hopefully that helped. 
> 天火狐
> 
> On 13 September 2017 at 15:38, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
>   On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>   >       - Any player with a karma of -5 or less is a (Japanese term for 
> serf?).
> 
>   Just as an addendum, if 天火狐 or anyone with better knowledge of Japanese
>   feudal/cultural terms than me wants to suggest flavor improvements (in 
> English
>   alphabet please), I'd gratefully add them.  Maybe we should call the 
> whole
>   thing a tea ceremony...
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: DIS: a relief valve

[Quazie]

The Karmaster [Or whoever tracks these switches] Should be able to prune
from the top/bottom if: Total karma abs([Positive - Negative]) Exceeds some
threshold - that way you don't need a proposal to fix it later.

On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 12:56 PM Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> Thought about that a bit... technically it's always 0 sum among *persons*,
> to have
> an average go that high you'd need a lot of low-karma players to
> deregister.  I think
> that's a case of "let's re-center by proposal if it proved later that we
> need to".
>
> I also thought about linking Samurai, etc. to standard deviations from the
> mean
> rather than set values, but that's the sort of calculation that would
> require exact
> full knowledge all the time, so that's a bit of a pain.
>
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > I suggest Karma rubber-banding of some sort so that Karma just doesn't
> continuously drift upwards. Otherwise we may have for example:
> > [Current Date]: Newcomer arrives with 0 Karma, General populace has an
> average of 20 Karma.
> > [Current Date + 2 months]: Newcomer arrives with 0 Karma, General
> populace has an average of 40 Karma.
> > [Current Date + 1 year]: Newcomer arrives with 0 Karma, General populace
> has an average of 140 Karma.
> >
> > And then gerontocracy, yadda yadda, what have you.
> >
> > I suggest a social ranking. Gaining Karma swaps you with the person
> above who has been in that position for the most time. Losing Karma does
> the opposite. Like that, it's always "relative" and we don't get into
> > problems of drift.
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 9:39 PM, Josh T 
> wrote:
> >   The Japanese term for a (western) serf is *noudo*, literally
> meaning farm servant. If you want something from the historical Japanese
> caste system, since they took after Confucian ideas, peasant was
> >   was actually the highest commoner class (above craftsmen and
> merchants); the outcasts of the Japanese feudal system were the *eta*
> (historical name, somewhat derogatory today, means "full of
> >   defilement"), *hinin* ("non-humans"), or the modern politically
> correct term in English, *burakumin* ("hamlet people", referring to how
> they were exiled from towns and cities to have their own
> >   hamlets). Hopefully that helped.
> > 天火狐
> >
> > On 13 September 2017 at 15:38, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >   On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> >   >   - Any player with a karma of -5 or less is a (Japanese
> term for serf?).
> >
> >   Just as an addendum, if 天火狐 or anyone with better knowledge of
> Japanese
> >   feudal/cultural terms than me wants to suggest flavor improvements
> (in English
> >   alphabet please), I'd gratefully add them.  Maybe we should call
> the whole
> >   thing a tea ceremony...
>
>

Re: DIS: a relief valve

[Quazie]

Sorry - Karmastor

On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 12:58 PM Quazie  wrote:

> The Karmaster [Or whoever tracks these switches] Should be able to prune
> from the top/bottom if: Total karma abs([Positive - Negative]) Exceeds some
> threshold - that way you don't need a proposal to fix it later.
>
> On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 12:56 PM Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Thought about that a bit... technically it's always 0 sum among
>> *persons*, to have
>> an average go that high you'd need a lot of low-karma players to
>> deregister.  I think
>> that's a case of "let's re-center by proposal if it proved later that we
>> need to".
>>
>> I also thought about linking Samurai, etc. to standard deviations from
>> the mean
>> rather than set values, but that's the sort of calculation that would
>> require exact
>> full knowledge all the time, so that's a bit of a pain.
>>
>> On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Cuddle Beam wrote:
>> > I suggest Karma rubber-banding of some sort so that Karma just doesn't
>> continuously drift upwards. Otherwise we may have for example:
>> > [Current Date]: Newcomer arrives with 0 Karma, General populace has an
>> average of 20 Karma.
>> > [Current Date + 2 months]: Newcomer arrives with 0 Karma, General
>> populace has an average of 40 Karma.
>> > [Current Date + 1 year]: Newcomer arrives with 0 Karma, General
>> populace has an average of 140 Karma.
>> >
>> > And then gerontocracy, yadda yadda, what have you.
>> >
>> > I suggest a social ranking. Gaining Karma swaps you with the person
>> above who has been in that position for the most time. Losing Karma does
>> the opposite. Like that, it's always "relative" and we don't get into
>> > problems of drift.
>> >
>> > On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 9:39 PM, Josh T 
>> wrote:
>> >   The Japanese term for a (western) serf is *noudo*, literally
>> meaning farm servant. If you want something from the historical Japanese
>> caste system, since they took after Confucian ideas, peasant was
>> >   was actually the highest commoner class (above craftsmen and
>> merchants); the outcasts of the Japanese feudal system were the *eta*
>> (historical name, somewhat derogatory today, means "full of
>> >   defilement"), *hinin* ("non-humans"), or the modern politically
>> correct term in English, *burakumin* ("hamlet people", referring to how
>> they were exiled from towns and cities to have their own
>> >   hamlets). Hopefully that helped.
>> > 天火狐
>> >
>> > On 13 September 2017 at 15:38, Kerim Aydin 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >   On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>> >   >   - Any player with a karma of -5 or less is a (Japanese
>> term for serf?).
>> >
>> >   Just as an addendum, if 天火狐 or anyone with better knowledge of
>> Japanese
>> >   feudal/cultural terms than me wants to suggest flavor
>> improvements (in English
>> >   alphabet please), I'd gratefully add them.  Maybe we should call
>> the whole
>> >   thing a tea ceremony...
>>
>>

Re: DIS: a relief valve

[Kerim Aydin]

Thought about that a bit... technically it's always 0 sum among *persons*, to 
have
an average go that high you'd need a lot of low-karma players to deregister.  I 
think
that's a case of "let's re-center by proposal if it proved later that we need 
to".

I also thought about linking Samurai, etc. to standard deviations from the mean
rather than set values, but that's the sort of calculation that would require 
exact
full knowledge all the time, so that's a bit of a pain.

On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> I suggest Karma rubber-banding of some sort so that Karma just doesn't 
> continuously drift upwards. Otherwise we may have for example:
> [Current Date]: Newcomer arrives with 0 Karma, General populace has an 
> average of 20 Karma.
> [Current Date + 2 months]: Newcomer arrives with 0 Karma, General populace 
> has an average of 40 Karma.
> [Current Date + 1 year]: Newcomer arrives with 0 Karma, General populace has 
> an average of 140 Karma.
> 
> And then gerontocracy, yadda yadda, what have you.
> 
> I suggest a social ranking. Gaining Karma swaps you with the person above who 
> has been in that position for the most time. Losing Karma does the opposite. 
> Like that, it's always "relative" and we don't get into
> problems of drift.
> 
> On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 9:39 PM, Josh T  wrote:
>   The Japanese term for a (western) serf is *noudo*, literally meaning 
> farm servant. If you want something from the historical Japanese caste 
> system, since they took after Confucian ideas, peasant was
>   was actually the highest commoner class (above craftsmen and 
> merchants); the outcasts of the Japanese feudal system were the *eta* 
> (historical name, somewhat derogatory today, means "full of
>   defilement"), *hinin* ("non-humans"), or the modern politically correct 
> term in English, *burakumin* ("hamlet people", referring to how they were 
> exiled from towns and cities to have their own
>   hamlets). Hopefully that helped. 
> 天火狐
> 
> On 13 September 2017 at 15:38, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
>   On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>   >       - Any player with a karma of -5 or less is a (Japanese term for 
> serf?).
> 
>   Just as an addendum, if 天火狐 or anyone with better knowledge of Japanese
>   feudal/cultural terms than me wants to suggest flavor improvements (in 
> English
>   alphabet please), I'd gratefully add them.  Maybe we should call the 
> whole
>   thing a tea ceremony...

Re: DIS: a relief valve

[Kerim Aydin]

Not optional, IMO.

If your primary goal is to be negative about someone, you have to find someone 
other
than yourself to be positive about.

If your primary goal is to be positive, you can (1) donate it from yourself, and
feel good about it, or (2) if there's some non-participant players hanging
around refusing to be deregistered, ding them on principle, (3) for balance, 
pick
someone with lots of karma who won't miss it too much, or of course (4) find
someone to be negative about.

Requiring people to "give reasons" is an additional (though minor) social 
barrier
to misuse, and to explain (e.g. if you're taking from someone with lots, to say
"nothing personal").

On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Quazie wrote:
> What if I don't like anyone?  Can i Honor myself?  Can 2) or 3) be optinal?
> 
> On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 12:38 PM Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
>   On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>   >       - Any player with a karma of -5 or less is a (Japanese term for 
> serf?).
> 
>   Just as an addendum, if 天火狐 or anyone with better knowledge of Japanese
>   feudal/cultural terms than me wants to suggest flavor improvements (in 
> English
>   alphabet please), I'd gratefully add them.  Maybe we should call the 
> whole
>   thing a tea ceremony...
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: DIS: a relief valve

[Cuddle Beam]

I suggest Karma rubber-banding of some sort so that Karma just doesn't
continuously drift upwards. Otherwise we may have for example:

[Current Date]: Newcomer arrives with 0 Karma, General populace has an
average of 20 Karma.
[Current Date + 2 months]: Newcomer arrives with 0 Karma, General populace
has an average of 40 Karma.
[Current Date + 1 year]: Newcomer arrives with 0 Karma, General populace
has an average of 140 Karma.

And then gerontocracy, yadda yadda, what have you.

I suggest a social ranking. Gaining Karma swaps you with the person above
who has been in that position for the most time. Losing Karma does the
opposite. Like that, it's always "relative" and we don't get into problems
of drift.

On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 9:39 PM, Josh T  wrote:

> The Japanese term for a (western) serf is *noudo*, literally meaning farm
> servant. If you want something from the historical Japanese caste system,
> since they took after Confucian ideas, peasant was was actually the highest
> commoner class (above craftsmen and merchants); the outcasts of the
> Japanese feudal system were the *eta* (historical name, somewhat derogatory
> today, means "full of defilement"), *hinin* ("non-humans"), or the modern
> politically correct term in English, *burakumin* ("hamlet people",
> referring to how they were exiled from towns and cities to have their own
> hamlets). Hopefully that helped.
>
> 天火狐
>
> On 13 September 2017 at 15:38, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>> >   - Any player with a karma of -5 or less is a (Japanese term for
>> serf?).
>>
>> Just as an addendum, if 天火狐 or anyone with better knowledge of Japanese
>> feudal/cultural terms than me wants to suggest flavor improvements (in
>> English
>> alphabet please), I'd gratefully add them.  Maybe we should call the whole
>> thing a tea ceremony...
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: a relief valve

[Josh T]

The Japanese term for a (western) serf is *noudo*, literally meaning farm
servant. If you want something from the historical Japanese caste system,
since they took after Confucian ideas, peasant was was actually the highest
commoner class (above craftsmen and merchants); the outcasts of the
Japanese feudal system were the *eta* (historical name, somewhat derogatory
today, means "full of defilement"), *hinin* ("non-humans"), or the modern
politically correct term in English, *burakumin* ("hamlet people",
referring to how they were exiled from towns and cities to have their own
hamlets). Hopefully that helped.

天火狐

On 13 September 2017 at 15:38, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> >   - Any player with a karma of -5 or less is a (Japanese term for
> serf?).
>
> Just as an addendum, if 天火狐 or anyone with better knowledge of Japanese
> feudal/cultural terms than me wants to suggest flavor improvements (in
> English
> alphabet please), I'd gratefully add them.  Maybe we should call the whole
> thing a tea ceremony...
>
>
>

Re: DIS: a relief valve

[Quazie]

What if I don't like anyone?  Can i Honor myself?  Can 2) or 3) be optinal?

On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 12:38 PM Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> >   - Any player with a karma of -5 or less is a (Japanese term for
> serf?).
>
> Just as an addendum, if 天火狐 or anyone with better knowledge of Japanese
> feudal/cultural terms than me wants to suggest flavor improvements (in
> English
> alphabet please), I'd gratefully add them.  Maybe we should call the whole
> thing a tea ceremony...
>
>
>

Re: DIS: a relief valve

[Kerim Aydin]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>   - Any player with a karma of -5 or less is a (Japanese term for serf?).

Just as an addendum, if 天火狐 or anyone with better knowledge of Japanese
feudal/cultural terms than me wants to suggest flavor improvements (in English
alphabet please), I'd gratefully add them.  Maybe we should call the whole
thing a tea ceremony...

Re: DIS: a relief valve

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I like this.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 13, 2017, at 3:25 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> [Talked about several times recently, but inspired by Quazie's apology - we 
> need a
> formal way to express approval/disapproval short of deregistration and 
> crimes, IMO].
> 
> Proposal draft
> 
> Create the following Rule, Karma:
> 
>  Karma is a person switch tracked by the Herald, with a default of 0 and
>  with any integer being a possible value.
> 
>  A Player CAN publish a Notice of Honour.  For a Notice of Honour to be
>  valid, it must:
>   1.  Be the first Notice of Honour that player has published in the
>   current week;
>   2.  Specify any other player to gain karma, and provide a reason for
>   specifying that player; and
>   3.  Specify any player to lose karma, and provide a reason for
>   specifying that player.
> 
>  When a valid Notice of Honour is published, the player specified to gain
>  karma has eir karma flipped to be one integer higher than it was, and the
>  player specified to lose karma has eir karma flipped to be one integer
>  lower than it was.
> 
> [can't remember, can we use natural language like "increase by 1" and 
> "decrease
> by 1" for integer/natural switches?]
> 
>  - Any player with a karma of 5 or greater is a Samurai.
> 
>  - Any player with a karma of -5 or less is a (Japanese term for serf?).
> 
>  - The player with the highest karma (if any) is the Shogun.
> 
>  - The player with the lowest karma (if any) is the Honourless Worm.
> 
> 
> [Future rewards for holding these positions possible].
> 
> [Once per week allows people to express satisfaction/dissatisfaction in a 
> meaningful
> way without it being a true "piling on"].
> 
> 
> 



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DIS: a relief valve

[Kerim Aydin]

[Talked about several times recently, but inspired by Quazie's apology - we 
need a 
formal way to express approval/disapproval short of deregistration and crimes, 
IMO].

Proposal draft

Create the following Rule, Karma:

  Karma is a person switch tracked by the Herald, with a default of 0 and 
  with any integer being a possible value.

  A Player CAN publish a Notice of Honour.  For a Notice of Honour to be
  valid, it must:
   1.  Be the first Notice of Honour that player has published in the
   current week;
   2.  Specify any other player to gain karma, and provide a reason for
   specifying that player; and
   3.  Specify any player to lose karma, and provide a reason for
   specifying that player.

  When a valid Notice of Honour is published, the player specified to gain
  karma has eir karma flipped to be one integer higher than it was, and the
  player specified to lose karma has eir karma flipped to be one integer
  lower than it was.

[can't remember, can we use natural language like "increase by 1" and "decrease
by 1" for integer/natural switches?]

  - Any player with a karma of 5 or greater is a Samurai.

  - Any player with a karma of -5 or less is a (Japanese term for serf?).

  - The player with the highest karma (if any) is the Shogun.

  - The player with the lowest karma (if any) is the Honourless Worm.


[Future rewards for holding these positions possible].

[Once per week allows people to express satisfaction/dissatisfaction in a 
meaningful
way without it being a true "piling on"].