Re: DIS: reality check

[Edward Murphy]

G. wrote:


FRC launched around Feb-Mar 1993 (it's listed with other committees in the
"Seventh Month" summary here:
http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/nomicworld/norrish/
which matches my memory of writing the Nomic World committee rules over
the 92-93 winter holidays).

A question would be whether its gameplay was truly continuous when Nomic
World ended (or whether it "restarted" like NW -> Agora).  I also don't
know if it was continuous throughout the 90s - Murphy might know that.


As far as I know, it's been continuous since NW -> FRC, though it's gone
through lulls up to several months at a time.

Re: BUS: Re: DIS: reality check

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Sun, 27 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:


The unundead


Running on ununennium...

Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: BUS: Re: DIS: reality check

[Cuddle Beam]

The unundead

On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 6:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> Will also make it retroactive to cover PSS and anyone else who decides
> to dezombify before it's adopted.
>
> On Sat, 26 May 2018, C. V. wrote:
> > ​Sorry PSS, but I think all of your assets have been thoroughly siphoned
> > off by VJ Rada. (We seriously need to get that welcome package for former
> > zombies thing going)
> >
> > ~Corona
> >
> > On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 8:52 AM, Ned Strange 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Noo! MY POWER IN THIS GAME IS GONE.
> > >
> > > welcome back
> > >
> > > On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Kerim Aydin 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes it was possible and yes you just did so.
> > > >
> > > > Great to have you (almost or in summer) back!!
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, 25 May 2018, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> > > > > Given my imminent return, if it is possible to do so, I flip my
> master
> > > > > switch to myself.
> > > > > On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 19:29 Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> > > > > p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Just saw this thread and wanted to mention that as the summer
> rolls
> > > > > > around, I may return.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 19:08 Kerim Aydin <
> ke...@u.washington.edu>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOO
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> though I think the software we're using was actually a MUD:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Sat, 26 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > What's MOO?
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 12:45 AM, Kerim Aydin <
> > > > ke...@u.washington.edu>
> > > > > >> > wrote:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > It wouldn't work over email, but this conversation also had
> me
> > > > > >> wondering
> > > > > >> > > whether the MOO and its final state lived on a disk
> anywhere!
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > The rules and the MOO structure (rooms and programming) were
> > > very
> > > > > >> > > intertwined,
> > > > > >> > > e.g. the rules assume a MOO-programmed-solution for voting
> and
> > > all
> > > > > >> other
> > > > > >> > > interactions.  IMO it wouldn't be worth the effort even as a
> > > > gimmick
> > > > > >> UNLESS
> > > > > >> > > the MOO was actually brought online.  It wouldn't be worth
> the
> > > > effort
> > > > > >> > > of porting to a mailing list because that's already been
> done -
> > > > and
> > > > > >> that's
> > > > > >> > > Agora.  In a way, moving to the mailing list freed Agorans
> from
> > > > their
> > > > > >> > > "physical restrictions" and allowed them to be platonic
> > > idealists
> > > > they
> > > > > >> > > wanted to be, so Agora is more an evolution of that spirit
> and
> > > > the MOO
> > > > > >> > > would be an archaic step backward (though as you say it
> would be
> > > > fun
> > > > > >> to
> > > > > >> > > revisit as a novelty).
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > We had a brief fling with a new MOO circa 2004-2005, and it
> was
> > > > > >> abandoned
> > > > > >> > > fairly quickly probably in part because it was restrictive
> like
> > > > that.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > On Fri, 25 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > It would definitely strip it of a lot of its former
> "spirit"
> > > > > >> although
> > > > > >> > > isn't
> > > > > >> > > > nomic about change in the first place?
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > But yeah, it more about the formal gimmick. Not
> "reviving" the
> > > > > >> spirit of
> > > > > >> > > > Nomic World itself.
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Alex Smith <
> > > > > >> ais...@alumni.bham.ac.uk>
> > > > > >> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > On Fri, 2018-05-25 at 18:07 +0200, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > > > OH MAN.
> > > > > >> > > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > > What if we managed to "hack" the defunct NW via FRC,
> to
> > > then
> > > > > >> pull it
> > > > > >> > > > > into a
> > > > > >> > > > > > better place (like a mailing list or Discord server)
> so
> > > > that it
> > > > > >> can
> > > > > >> > > be
> > > > > >> > > > > > played again?
> > > > > >> > > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > > Does anyone have FRC's old rules? How difficult could
> it
> > > be?
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > Nomic World on a mailing list would defeat the entire
> point
> > > > of it
> > > > > >> being
> > > > > >> > > > > Nomic World. (You'd also quickly discover that most of
> the
> > > > rules
> > > > > >> > > > > wouldn't work in that context.)
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > There's a reason that Agora started as its own nomic.
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > --
> > > > > >> > > > > ais523
> > > > 

Re: BUS: Re: DIS: reality check

[Kerim Aydin]

Will also make it retroactive to cover PSS and anyone else who decides
to dezombify before it's adopted.

On Sat, 26 May 2018, C. V. wrote:
> ​Sorry PSS, but I think all of your assets have been thoroughly siphoned
> off by VJ Rada. (We seriously need to get that welcome package for former
> zombies thing going)
> 
> ~Corona
> 
> On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 8:52 AM, Ned Strange 
> wrote:
> 
> > Noo! MY POWER IN THIS GAME IS GONE.
> >
> > welcome back
> >
> > On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Kerim Aydin 
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes it was possible and yes you just did so.
> > >
> > > Great to have you (almost or in summer) back!!
> > >
> > > On Fri, 25 May 2018, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> > > > Given my imminent return, if it is possible to do so, I flip my master
> > > > switch to myself.
> > > > On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 19:29 Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> > > > p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Just saw this thread and wanted to mention that as the summer rolls
> > > > > around, I may return.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 19:08 Kerim Aydin 
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOO
> > > > >>
> > > > >> though I think the software we're using was actually a MUD:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Sat, 26 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > What's MOO?
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 12:45 AM, Kerim Aydin <
> > > ke...@u.washington.edu>
> > > > >> > wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > It wouldn't work over email, but this conversation also had me
> > > > >> wondering
> > > > >> > > whether the MOO and its final state lived on a disk anywhere!
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > The rules and the MOO structure (rooms and programming) were
> > very
> > > > >> > > intertwined,
> > > > >> > > e.g. the rules assume a MOO-programmed-solution for voting and
> > all
> > > > >> other
> > > > >> > > interactions.  IMO it wouldn't be worth the effort even as a
> > > gimmick
> > > > >> UNLESS
> > > > >> > > the MOO was actually brought online.  It wouldn't be worth the
> > > effort
> > > > >> > > of porting to a mailing list because that's already been done -
> > > and
> > > > >> that's
> > > > >> > > Agora.  In a way, moving to the mailing list freed Agorans from
> > > their
> > > > >> > > "physical restrictions" and allowed them to be platonic
> > idealists
> > > they
> > > > >> > > wanted to be, so Agora is more an evolution of that spirit and
> > > the MOO
> > > > >> > > would be an archaic step backward (though as you say it would be
> > > fun
> > > > >> to
> > > > >> > > revisit as a novelty).
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > We had a brief fling with a new MOO circa 2004-2005, and it was
> > > > >> abandoned
> > > > >> > > fairly quickly probably in part because it was restrictive like
> > > that.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > On Fri, 25 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > > > >> > > > It would definitely strip it of a lot of its former "spirit"
> > > > >> although
> > > > >> > > isn't
> > > > >> > > > nomic about change in the first place?
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > But yeah, it more about the formal gimmick. Not "reviving" the
> > > > >> spirit of
> > > > >> > > > Nomic World itself.
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Alex Smith <
> > > > >> ais...@alumni.bham.ac.uk>
> > > > >> > > > wrote:
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > > On Fri, 2018-05-25 at 18:07 +0200, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > > > >> > > > > > OH MAN.
> > > > >> > > > > >
> > > > >> > > > > > What if we managed to "hack" the defunct NW via FRC, to
> > then
> > > > >> pull it
> > > > >> > > > > into a
> > > > >> > > > > > better place (like a mailing list or Discord server) so
> > > that it
> > > > >> can
> > > > >> > > be
> > > > >> > > > > > played again?
> > > > >> > > > > >
> > > > >> > > > > > Does anyone have FRC's old rules? How difficult could it
> > be?
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > > Nomic World on a mailing list would defeat the entire point
> > > of it
> > > > >> being
> > > > >> > > > > Nomic World. (You'd also quickly discover that most of the
> > > rules
> > > > >> > > > > wouldn't work in that context.)
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > > There's a reason that Agora started as its own nomic.
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > > --
> > > > >> > > > > ais523
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > From V.J. Rada
> >
>

Re: DIS: reality check

[Nicholas Evans]

I've been reading and have a proposal I want to get out in June (not
concerning to current economic game), but need to wait for an updated
ruleset, and don't have any plans to do anything in the interim. So feel
free to continue to use my zombieness.

On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 9:07 PM, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:

> On Fri, 25 May 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>
> The age-old refugee problem - that's kind of like arguing about whether
>> Battlestar Galactica starting a colony is a "true" continuation of its
>> homeworld.  IIRC (just from some conversations back then), even while in
>> NW, FRC just wanted to play its own game as a departure from NW/Agora
>> nomic play style, and so in spirit was an independent game hosted within
>> NW even back then (Ørjan, I'm thinking of conversations with Storm in
>> particular...).  The fact they put the ability to change fora into the
>> ordinances shows they were definitely thinking independently (unless that
>> was put in as an emergency change under the impending collapse?)
>>
>
> The provision was definitely already there, otherwise there may not even
> have been time enough to make a change... I don't think Nomic World stayed
> up for as long as a week, which I vaguely think was the standard time
> period for voting.  Whether someone suspected such a thing could happen
> when they created the ordinances, I don't know...  I for one don't recall
> suspecting Nomic World's death before this happened.
>
> Greetings,
> Ørjan.
>

Re: BUS: Re: DIS: reality check

[C. V.]

​Sorry PSS, but I think all of your assets have been thoroughly siphoned
off by VJ Rada. (We seriously need to get that welcome package for former
zombies thing going)

~Corona

On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 8:52 AM, Ned Strange 
wrote:

> Noo! MY POWER IN THIS GAME IS GONE.
>
> welcome back
>
> On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Yes it was possible and yes you just did so.
> >
> > Great to have you (almost or in summer) back!!
> >
> > On Fri, 25 May 2018, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> > > Given my imminent return, if it is possible to do so, I flip my master
> > > switch to myself.
> > > On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 19:29 Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> > > p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Just saw this thread and wanted to mention that as the summer rolls
> > > > around, I may return.
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 19:08 Kerim Aydin 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOO
> > > >>
> > > >> though I think the software we're using was actually a MUD:
> > > >>
> > > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD
> > > >>
> > > >> On Sat, 26 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > What's MOO?
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 12:45 AM, Kerim Aydin <
> > ke...@u.washington.edu>
> > > >> > wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > It wouldn't work over email, but this conversation also had me
> > > >> wondering
> > > >> > > whether the MOO and its final state lived on a disk anywhere!
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > The rules and the MOO structure (rooms and programming) were
> very
> > > >> > > intertwined,
> > > >> > > e.g. the rules assume a MOO-programmed-solution for voting and
> all
> > > >> other
> > > >> > > interactions.  IMO it wouldn't be worth the effort even as a
> > gimmick
> > > >> UNLESS
> > > >> > > the MOO was actually brought online.  It wouldn't be worth the
> > effort
> > > >> > > of porting to a mailing list because that's already been done -
> > and
> > > >> that's
> > > >> > > Agora.  In a way, moving to the mailing list freed Agorans from
> > their
> > > >> > > "physical restrictions" and allowed them to be platonic
> idealists
> > they
> > > >> > > wanted to be, so Agora is more an evolution of that spirit and
> > the MOO
> > > >> > > would be an archaic step backward (though as you say it would be
> > fun
> > > >> to
> > > >> > > revisit as a novelty).
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > We had a brief fling with a new MOO circa 2004-2005, and it was
> > > >> abandoned
> > > >> > > fairly quickly probably in part because it was restrictive like
> > that.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > On Fri, 25 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > > >> > > > It would definitely strip it of a lot of its former "spirit"
> > > >> although
> > > >> > > isn't
> > > >> > > > nomic about change in the first place?
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > But yeah, it more about the formal gimmick. Not "reviving" the
> > > >> spirit of
> > > >> > > > Nomic World itself.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Alex Smith <
> > > >> ais...@alumni.bham.ac.uk>
> > > >> > > > wrote:
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > > On Fri, 2018-05-25 at 18:07 +0200, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > > >> > > > > > OH MAN.
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > What if we managed to "hack" the defunct NW via FRC, to
> then
> > > >> pull it
> > > >> > > > > into a
> > > >> > > > > > better place (like a mailing list or Discord server) so
> > that it
> > > >> can
> > > >> > > be
> > > >> > > > > > played again?
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > Does anyone have FRC's old rules? How difficult could it
> be?
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > Nomic World on a mailing list would defeat the entire point
> > of it
> > > >> being
> > > >> > > > > Nomic World. (You'd also quickly discover that most of the
> > rules
> > > >> > > > > wouldn't work in that context.)
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > There's a reason that Agora started as its own nomic.
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > --
> > > >> > > > > ais523
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: BUS: Re: DIS: reality check

[Ned Strange]

Noo! MY POWER IN THIS GAME IS GONE.

welcome back

On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> Yes it was possible and yes you just did so.
>
> Great to have you (almost or in summer) back!!
>
> On Fri, 25 May 2018, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> > Given my imminent return, if it is possible to do so, I flip my master
> > switch to myself.
> > On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 19:29 Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> > p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Just saw this thread and wanted to mention that as the summer rolls
> > > around, I may return.
> > >
> > > On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 19:08 Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOO
> > >>
> > >> though I think the software we're using was actually a MUD:
> > >>
> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, 26 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > What's MOO?
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 12:45 AM, Kerim Aydin <
> ke...@u.washington.edu>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > It wouldn't work over email, but this conversation also had me
> > >> wondering
> > >> > > whether the MOO and its final state lived on a disk anywhere!
> > >> > >
> > >> > > The rules and the MOO structure (rooms and programming) were very
> > >> > > intertwined,
> > >> > > e.g. the rules assume a MOO-programmed-solution for voting and all
> > >> other
> > >> > > interactions.  IMO it wouldn't be worth the effort even as a
> gimmick
> > >> UNLESS
> > >> > > the MOO was actually brought online.  It wouldn't be worth the
> effort
> > >> > > of porting to a mailing list because that's already been done -
> and
> > >> that's
> > >> > > Agora.  In a way, moving to the mailing list freed Agorans from
> their
> > >> > > "physical restrictions" and allowed them to be platonic idealists
> they
> > >> > > wanted to be, so Agora is more an evolution of that spirit and
> the MOO
> > >> > > would be an archaic step backward (though as you say it would be
> fun
> > >> to
> > >> > > revisit as a novelty).
> > >> > >
> > >> > > We had a brief fling with a new MOO circa 2004-2005, and it was
> > >> abandoned
> > >> > > fairly quickly probably in part because it was restrictive like
> that.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Fri, 25 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > >> > > > It would definitely strip it of a lot of its former "spirit"
> > >> although
> > >> > > isn't
> > >> > > > nomic about change in the first place?
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > But yeah, it more about the formal gimmick. Not "reviving" the
> > >> spirit of
> > >> > > > Nomic World itself.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Alex Smith <
> > >> ais...@alumni.bham.ac.uk>
> > >> > > > wrote:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > > On Fri, 2018-05-25 at 18:07 +0200, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > >> > > > > > OH MAN.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > What if we managed to "hack" the defunct NW via FRC, to then
> > >> pull it
> > >> > > > > into a
> > >> > > > > > better place (like a mailing list or Discord server) so
> that it
> > >> can
> > >> > > be
> > >> > > > > > played again?
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Does anyone have FRC's old rules? How difficult could it be?
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > Nomic World on a mailing list would defeat the entire point
> of it
> > >> being
> > >> > > > > Nomic World. (You'd also quickly discover that most of the
> rules
> > >> > > > > wouldn't work in that context.)
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > There's a reason that Agora started as its own nomic.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > --
> > >> > > > > ais523
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> >
>
>


-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: reality check

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Fri, 25 May 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote:


The age-old refugee problem - that's kind of like arguing about whether
Battlestar Galactica starting a colony is a "true" continuation of its
homeworld.  IIRC (just from some conversations back then), even while in
NW, FRC just wanted to play its own game as a departure from NW/Agora
nomic play style, and so in spirit was an independent game hosted within
NW even back then (Ørjan, I'm thinking of conversations with Storm in
particular...).  The fact they put the ability to change fora into the
ordinances shows they were definitely thinking independently (unless that
was put in as an emergency change under the impending collapse?)


The provision was definitely already there, otherwise there may not even 
have been time enough to make a change... I don't think Nomic World stayed 
up for as long as a week, which I vaguely think was the standard time 
period for voting.  Whether someone suspected such a thing could happen 
when they created the ordinances, I don't know...  I for one don't recall 
suspecting Nomic World's death before this happened.


Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: reality check

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Fri, 25 May 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote:


Nice!  With legally contiguous ordinances, it might even be argued that FRC
is still the last legal remnant of NW and dates to the start of NW.  (If NW
was just taken down from access without a legal Rules-statement that it ended,
it could be a platonic existing nomic that thinks "the universe has been
destroyed" with the exception of FRC).


As far as I remember there was no legal Rules-statement, the announcement 
was pretty much "We don't have the time to maintain this any more so the 
next time the MUD crashes it won't be brought up again."


Greetings,
Ørjan.


On Fri, 25 May 2018, Ørjan Johansen wrote:

On Thu, 24 May 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote:


FRC launched around Feb-Mar 1993 (it's listed with other committees in the
"Seventh Month" summary here:
http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/nomicworld/norrish/
which matches my memory of writing the Nomic World committee rules over
the 92-93 winter holidays).

A question would be whether its gameplay was truly continuous when Nomic
World ended (or whether it "restarted" like NW -> Agora).  I also don't
know if it was continuous throughout the 90s - Murphy might know that.


It was continuous as long as I followed it closely.  The Ordinances had a
provision allowing the Judge to change where posts should be made, which I
did, being the Judge when the announcement that Nomic World was ending
happened.

IIRC it then went from being played on the Yoyo list (where Agora later
started), to being played by direct mail to all members, to being played on a
mailing list hosted at NVG in Trondheim where I may have been the list
administrator (my memory is vague, although I was definitely not sysadmin).
I'm not sure what happened after that.

Greetings,
Ørjan.

[snip]

Re: BUS: Re: DIS: reality check

[Kerim Aydin]

Yes it was possible and yes you just did so.

Great to have you (almost or in summer) back!!

On Fri, 25 May 2018, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> Given my imminent return, if it is possible to do so, I flip my master
> switch to myself.
> On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 19:29 Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Just saw this thread and wanted to mention that as the summer rolls
> > around, I may return.
> >
> > On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 19:08 Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOO
> >>
> >> though I think the software we're using was actually a MUD:
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD
> >>
> >> On Sat, 26 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> >>
> >> > What's MOO?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 12:45 AM, Kerim Aydin 
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > It wouldn't work over email, but this conversation also had me
> >> wondering
> >> > > whether the MOO and its final state lived on a disk anywhere!
> >> > >
> >> > > The rules and the MOO structure (rooms and programming) were very
> >> > > intertwined,
> >> > > e.g. the rules assume a MOO-programmed-solution for voting and all
> >> other
> >> > > interactions.  IMO it wouldn't be worth the effort even as a gimmick
> >> UNLESS
> >> > > the MOO was actually brought online.  It wouldn't be worth the effort
> >> > > of porting to a mailing list because that's already been done - and
> >> that's
> >> > > Agora.  In a way, moving to the mailing list freed Agorans from their
> >> > > "physical restrictions" and allowed them to be platonic idealists they
> >> > > wanted to be, so Agora is more an evolution of that spirit and the MOO
> >> > > would be an archaic step backward (though as you say it would be fun
> >> to
> >> > > revisit as a novelty).
> >> > >
> >> > > We had a brief fling with a new MOO circa 2004-2005, and it was
> >> abandoned
> >> > > fairly quickly probably in part because it was restrictive like that.
> >> > >
> >> > > On Fri, 25 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> >> > > > It would definitely strip it of a lot of its former "spirit"
> >> although
> >> > > isn't
> >> > > > nomic about change in the first place?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > But yeah, it more about the formal gimmick. Not "reviving" the
> >> spirit of
> >> > > > Nomic World itself.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Alex Smith <
> >> ais...@alumni.bham.ac.uk>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > On Fri, 2018-05-25 at 18:07 +0200, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> >> > > > > > OH MAN.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > What if we managed to "hack" the defunct NW via FRC, to then
> >> pull it
> >> > > > > into a
> >> > > > > > better place (like a mailing list or Discord server) so that it
> >> can
> >> > > be
> >> > > > > > played again?
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Does anyone have FRC's old rules? How difficult could it be?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Nomic World on a mailing list would defeat the entire point of it
> >> being
> >> > > > > Nomic World. (You'd also quickly discover that most of the rules
> >> > > > > wouldn't work in that context.)
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > There's a reason that Agora started as its own nomic.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > --
> >> > > > > ais523
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
>

Re: DIS: reality check

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

Just saw this thread and wanted to mention that as the summer rolls around,
I may return.
On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 19:08 Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOO
>
> though I think the software we're using was actually a MUD:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD
>
> On Sat, 26 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
>
> > What's MOO?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 12:45 AM, Kerim Aydin 
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > It wouldn't work over email, but this conversation also had me
> wondering
> > > whether the MOO and its final state lived on a disk anywhere!
> > >
> > > The rules and the MOO structure (rooms and programming) were very
> > > intertwined,
> > > e.g. the rules assume a MOO-programmed-solution for voting and all
> other
> > > interactions.  IMO it wouldn't be worth the effort even as a gimmick
> UNLESS
> > > the MOO was actually brought online.  It wouldn't be worth the effort
> > > of porting to a mailing list because that's already been done - and
> that's
> > > Agora.  In a way, moving to the mailing list freed Agorans from their
> > > "physical restrictions" and allowed them to be platonic idealists they
> > > wanted to be, so Agora is more an evolution of that spirit and the MOO
> > > would be an archaic step backward (though as you say it would be fun to
> > > revisit as a novelty).
> > >
> > > We had a brief fling with a new MOO circa 2004-2005, and it was
> abandoned
> > > fairly quickly probably in part because it was restrictive like that.
> > >
> > > On Fri, 25 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > > > It would definitely strip it of a lot of its former "spirit" although
> > > isn't
> > > > nomic about change in the first place?
> > > >
> > > > But yeah, it more about the formal gimmick. Not "reviving" the
> spirit of
> > > > Nomic World itself.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Alex Smith <
> ais...@alumni.bham.ac.uk>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Fri, 2018-05-25 at 18:07 +0200, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > > > > > OH MAN.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What if we managed to "hack" the defunct NW via FRC, to then
> pull it
> > > > > into a
> > > > > > better place (like a mailing list or Discord server) so that it
> can
> > > be
> > > > > > played again?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does anyone have FRC's old rules? How difficult could it be?
> > > > >
> > > > > Nomic World on a mailing list would defeat the entire point of it
> being
> > > > > Nomic World. (You'd also quickly discover that most of the rules
> > > > > wouldn't work in that context.)
> > > > >
> > > > > There's a reason that Agora started as its own nomic.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > ais523
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>

Re: DIS: reality check

[Kerim Aydin]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOO

though I think the software we're using was actually a MUD:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD

On Sat, 26 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:

> What's MOO?
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 12:45 AM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > It wouldn't work over email, but this conversation also had me wondering
> > whether the MOO and its final state lived on a disk anywhere!
> >
> > The rules and the MOO structure (rooms and programming) were very
> > intertwined,
> > e.g. the rules assume a MOO-programmed-solution for voting and all other
> > interactions.  IMO it wouldn't be worth the effort even as a gimmick UNLESS
> > the MOO was actually brought online.  It wouldn't be worth the effort
> > of porting to a mailing list because that's already been done - and that's
> > Agora.  In a way, moving to the mailing list freed Agorans from their
> > "physical restrictions" and allowed them to be platonic idealists they
> > wanted to be, so Agora is more an evolution of that spirit and the MOO
> > would be an archaic step backward (though as you say it would be fun to
> > revisit as a novelty).
> >
> > We had a brief fling with a new MOO circa 2004-2005, and it was abandoned
> > fairly quickly probably in part because it was restrictive like that.
> >
> > On Fri, 25 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > > It would definitely strip it of a lot of its former "spirit" although
> > isn't
> > > nomic about change in the first place?
> > >
> > > But yeah, it more about the formal gimmick. Not "reviving" the spirit of
> > > Nomic World itself.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Alex Smith 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Fri, 2018-05-25 at 18:07 +0200, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > > > > OH MAN.
> > > > >
> > > > > What if we managed to "hack" the defunct NW via FRC, to then pull it
> > > > into a
> > > > > better place (like a mailing list or Discord server) so that it can
> > be
> > > > > played again?
> > > > >
> > > > > Does anyone have FRC's old rules? How difficult could it be?
> > > >
> > > > Nomic World on a mailing list would defeat the entire point of it being
> > > > Nomic World. (You'd also quickly discover that most of the rules
> > > > wouldn't work in that context.)
> > > >
> > > > There's a reason that Agora started as its own nomic.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > ais523
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>

Re: DIS: reality check

[Cuddle Beam]

> Does anyone have FRC's old rules?

I meant NW's old rules, sorry. Derp.

On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:07 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:

> OH MAN.
>
> What if we managed to "hack" the defunct NW via FRC, to then pull it into
> a better place (like a mailing list or Discord server) so that it can be
> played again?
>
> Does anyone have FRC's old rules? How difficult could it be?
>
> On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 3:40 PM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 25 May 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>> > On Fri, 25 May 2018, Alex Smith wrote:
>> > > The FRC /is/ probably still part of Nomic World's gamestate, though.
>> > > It's just that Nomic World itself is no longer a nomic because there's
>> > > no way to change its rules.
>> > >
>> > > (That said, the culture at the FRC is such that trying to make any
>> > > radical change to the game is almost guaranteed to be voted down, and
>> > > I'd agree with that. Although its ruleset theoretically allows
>> > > arbitrary rules changes, it's unlikely that most such changes will
>> ever
>> > > be made.)
>> >
>> > The age-old refugee problem - that's kind of like arguing about whether
>> > Battlestar Galactica starting a colony is a "true" continuation of its
>> > homeworld.  IIRC (just from some conversations back then), even while
>> in
>> > NW, FRC just wanted to play its own game as a departure from NW/Agora
>> > nomic play style, and so in spirit was an independent game hosted within
>> > NW even back then (Ørjan, I'm thinking of conversations with Storm in
>> > particular...).  The fact they put the ability to change fora into the
>> > ordinances shows they were definitely thinking independently (unless
>> that
>> > was put in as an emergency change under the impending collapse?)
>>
>> And just to continue the analogy, Agora was definitely the last leaders
>> of NW fleeing its destruction, founding a distinctly new colony but in
>> spirit the continuation of NW-in-exile.
>>
>> Well if nothing else there's a few good FRC round themes in there
>> somewhere...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: reality check

[Cuddle Beam]

What's MOO?



On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 12:45 AM, Kerim Aydin 
wrote:

>
>
> It wouldn't work over email, but this conversation also had me wondering
> whether the MOO and its final state lived on a disk anywhere!
>
> The rules and the MOO structure (rooms and programming) were very
> intertwined,
> e.g. the rules assume a MOO-programmed-solution for voting and all other
> interactions.  IMO it wouldn't be worth the effort even as a gimmick UNLESS
> the MOO was actually brought online.  It wouldn't be worth the effort
> of porting to a mailing list because that's already been done - and that's
> Agora.  In a way, moving to the mailing list freed Agorans from their
> "physical restrictions" and allowed them to be platonic idealists they
> wanted to be, so Agora is more an evolution of that spirit and the MOO
> would be an archaic step backward (though as you say it would be fun to
> revisit as a novelty).
>
> We had a brief fling with a new MOO circa 2004-2005, and it was abandoned
> fairly quickly probably in part because it was restrictive like that.
>
> On Fri, 25 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > It would definitely strip it of a lot of its former "spirit" although
> isn't
> > nomic about change in the first place?
> >
> > But yeah, it more about the formal gimmick. Not "reviving" the spirit of
> > Nomic World itself.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Alex Smith 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, 2018-05-25 at 18:07 +0200, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > > > OH MAN.
> > > >
> > > > What if we managed to "hack" the defunct NW via FRC, to then pull it
> > > into a
> > > > better place (like a mailing list or Discord server) so that it can
> be
> > > > played again?
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone have FRC's old rules? How difficult could it be?
> > >
> > > Nomic World on a mailing list would defeat the entire point of it being
> > > Nomic World. (You'd also quickly discover that most of the rules
> > > wouldn't work in that context.)
> > >
> > > There's a reason that Agora started as its own nomic.
> > >
> > > --
> > > ais523
> > >
> >
>
>

Re: DIS: reality check

[Kerim Aydin]

It wouldn't work over email, but this conversation also had me wondering
whether the MOO and its final state lived on a disk anywhere!

The rules and the MOO structure (rooms and programming) were very intertwined,
e.g. the rules assume a MOO-programmed-solution for voting and all other 
interactions.  IMO it wouldn't be worth the effort even as a gimmick UNLESS
the MOO was actually brought online.  It wouldn't be worth the effort
of porting to a mailing list because that's already been done - and that's
Agora.  In a way, moving to the mailing list freed Agorans from their
"physical restrictions" and allowed them to be platonic idealists they
wanted to be, so Agora is more an evolution of that spirit and the MOO
would be an archaic step backward (though as you say it would be fun to
revisit as a novelty).

We had a brief fling with a new MOO circa 2004-2005, and it was abandoned
fairly quickly probably in part because it was restrictive like that.

On Fri, 25 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> It would definitely strip it of a lot of its former "spirit" although isn't
> nomic about change in the first place?
> 
> But yeah, it more about the formal gimmick. Not "reviving" the spirit of
> Nomic World itself.
> 
> 
> On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Alex Smith 
> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 2018-05-25 at 18:07 +0200, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > > OH MAN.
> > >
> > > What if we managed to "hack" the defunct NW via FRC, to then pull it
> > into a
> > > better place (like a mailing list or Discord server) so that it can be
> > > played again?
> > >
> > > Does anyone have FRC's old rules? How difficult could it be?
> >
> > Nomic World on a mailing list would defeat the entire point of it being
> > Nomic World. (You'd also quickly discover that most of the rules
> > wouldn't work in that context.)
> >
> > There's a reason that Agora started as its own nomic.
> >
> > --
> > ais523
> >
>

Re: DIS: reality check

[Cuddle Beam]

It would definitely strip it of a lot of its former "spirit" although isn't
nomic about change in the first place?

But yeah, it more about the formal gimmick. Not "reviving" the spirit of
Nomic World itself.


On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Alex Smith 
wrote:

> On Fri, 2018-05-25 at 18:07 +0200, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > OH MAN.
> >
> > What if we managed to "hack" the defunct NW via FRC, to then pull it
> into a
> > better place (like a mailing list or Discord server) so that it can be
> > played again?
> >
> > Does anyone have FRC's old rules? How difficult could it be?
>
> Nomic World on a mailing list would defeat the entire point of it being
> Nomic World. (You'd also quickly discover that most of the rules
> wouldn't work in that context.)
>
> There's a reason that Agora started as its own nomic.
>
> --
> ais523
>

Re: DIS: reality check

[Alex Smith]

On Fri, 2018-05-25 at 18:07 +0200, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> OH MAN.
> 
> What if we managed to "hack" the defunct NW via FRC, to then pull it into a
> better place (like a mailing list or Discord server) so that it can be
> played again?
> 
> Does anyone have FRC's old rules? How difficult could it be?

Nomic World on a mailing list would defeat the entire point of it being
Nomic World. (You'd also quickly discover that most of the rules
wouldn't work in that context.)

There's a reason that Agora started as its own nomic.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: reality check

[Cuddle Beam]

OH MAN.

What if we managed to "hack" the defunct NW via FRC, to then pull it into a
better place (like a mailing list or Discord server) so that it can be
played again?

Does anyone have FRC's old rules? How difficult could it be?

On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 3:40 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, 25 May 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> > On Fri, 25 May 2018, Alex Smith wrote:
> > > The FRC /is/ probably still part of Nomic World's gamestate, though.
> > > It's just that Nomic World itself is no longer a nomic because there's
> > > no way to change its rules.
> > >
> > > (That said, the culture at the FRC is such that trying to make any
> > > radical change to the game is almost guaranteed to be voted down, and
> > > I'd agree with that. Although its ruleset theoretically allows
> > > arbitrary rules changes, it's unlikely that most such changes will ever
> > > be made.)
> >
> > The age-old refugee problem - that's kind of like arguing about whether
> > Battlestar Galactica starting a colony is a "true" continuation of its
> > homeworld.  IIRC (just from some conversations back then), even while in
> > NW, FRC just wanted to play its own game as a departure from NW/Agora
> > nomic play style, and so in spirit was an independent game hosted within
> > NW even back then (Ørjan, I'm thinking of conversations with Storm in
> > particular...).  The fact they put the ability to change fora into the
> > ordinances shows they were definitely thinking independently (unless that
> > was put in as an emergency change under the impending collapse?)
>
> And just to continue the analogy, Agora was definitely the last leaders
> of NW fleeing its destruction, founding a distinctly new colony but in
> spirit the continuation of NW-in-exile.
>
> Well if nothing else there's a few good FRC round themes in there
> somewhere...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: reality check

[Kerim Aydin]

On Fri, 25 May 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> On Fri, 25 May 2018, Alex Smith wrote:
> > The FRC /is/ probably still part of Nomic World's gamestate, though.
> > It's just that Nomic World itself is no longer a nomic because there's
> > no way to change its rules.
> > 
> > (That said, the culture at the FRC is such that trying to make any
> > radical change to the game is almost guaranteed to be voted down, and
> > I'd agree with that. Although its ruleset theoretically allows
> > arbitrary rules changes, it's unlikely that most such changes will ever
> > be made.)
> 
> The age-old refugee problem - that's kind of like arguing about whether 
> Battlestar Galactica starting a colony is a "true" continuation of its 
> homeworld.  IIRC (just from some conversations back then), even while in 
> NW, FRC just wanted to play its own game as a departure from NW/Agora  
> nomic play style, and so in spirit was an independent game hosted within
> NW even back then (Ørjan, I'm thinking of conversations with Storm in 
> particular...).  The fact they put the ability to change fora into the
> ordinances shows they were definitely thinking independently (unless that
> was put in as an emergency change under the impending collapse?)

And just to continue the analogy, Agora was definitely the last leaders
of NW fleeing its destruction, founding a distinctly new colony but in 
spirit the continuation of NW-in-exile.

Well if nothing else there's a few good FRC round themes in there 
somewhere...

Re: DIS: reality check

[Kerim Aydin]

On Fri, 25 May 2018, Alex Smith wrote:
> The FRC /is/ probably still part of Nomic World's gamestate, though.
> It's just that Nomic World itself is no longer a nomic because there's
> no way to change its rules.
> 
> (That said, the culture at the FRC is such that trying to make any
> radical change to the game is almost guaranteed to be voted down, and
> I'd agree with that. Although its ruleset theoretically allows
> arbitrary rules changes, it's unlikely that most such changes will ever
> be made.)

The age-old refugee problem - that's kind of like arguing about whether 
Battlestar Galactica starting a colony is a "true" continuation of its 
homeworld.  IIRC (just from some conversations back then), even while in 
NW, FRC just wanted to play its own game as a departure from NW/Agora  
nomic play style, and so in spirit was an independent game hosted within
NW even back then (Ørjan, I'm thinking of conversations with Storm in 
particular...).  The fact they put the ability to change fora into the
ordinances shows they were definitely thinking independently (unless that
was put in as an emergency change under the impending collapse?)

Re: DIS: reality check

[Alex Smith]

On Fri, 2018-05-25 at 05:55 -0700, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> Nice!  With legally contiguous ordinances, it might even be argued that FRC 
> is still the last legal remnant of NW and dates to the start of NW.  (If NW
> was just taken down from access without a legal Rules-statement that it ended,
> it could be a platonic existing nomic that thinks "the universe has been 
> destroyed" with the exception of FRC).

Given that FRC is a nomic, I wonder if recreating Nomic World from
inside it would count as a continuation of Nomic World.

I guess it'd be a similar situation to Agora "dying" because nobody
could track the gamestate any more (the equivalent of Nomic World's
server disappearing), and then a contract being amended in an attempt
to revive it. That wouldn't work due to Power, though. I guess the
Nomic World situation would be similar; you can't make proposals there
because the server isn't up, so you can't change the rules, as the
mechanism defined to do that isn't accessible.

The FRC /is/ probably still part of Nomic World's gamestate, though.
It's just that Nomic World itself is no longer a nomic because there's
no way to change its rules.

(That said, the culture at the FRC is such that trying to make any
radical change to the game is almost guaranteed to be voted down, and
I'd agree with that. Although its ruleset theoretically allows
arbitrary rules changes, it's unlikely that most such changes will ever
be made.)

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: reality check

[Kerim Aydin]

Nice!  With legally contiguous ordinances, it might even be argued that FRC 
is still the last legal remnant of NW and dates to the start of NW.  (If NW
was just taken down from access without a legal Rules-statement that it ended,
it could be a platonic existing nomic that thinks "the universe has been 
destroyed" with the exception of FRC).

On Fri, 25 May 2018, Ørjan Johansen wrote:
> On Thu, 24 May 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> 
> > FRC launched around Feb-Mar 1993 (it's listed with other committees in the
> > "Seventh Month" summary here:
> > http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/nomicworld/norrish/
> > which matches my memory of writing the Nomic World committee rules over
> > the 92-93 winter holidays).
> > 
> > A question would be whether its gameplay was truly continuous when Nomic
> > World ended (or whether it "restarted" like NW -> Agora).  I also don't
> > know if it was continuous throughout the 90s - Murphy might know that.
> 
> It was continuous as long as I followed it closely.  The Ordinances had a
> provision allowing the Judge to change where posts should be made, which I
> did, being the Judge when the announcement that Nomic World was ending
> happened.
> 
> IIRC it then went from being played on the Yoyo list (where Agora later
> started), to being played by direct mail to all members, to being played on a
> mailing list hosted at NVG in Trondheim where I may have been the list
> administrator (my memory is vague, although I was definitely not sysadmin).
> I'm not sure what happened after that.
> 
> Greetings,
> Ørjan.
> 
> > 
> > On Wed, 23 May 2018, Aris Merchant wrote:
> > > We may not even be the world's longest running internet nomic. Presuming
> > > the current FRC broke off directly from the original (which is pretty
> > > likely, given the nomenclature and traditions), that's been up longer than
> > > us.
> > > 
> > > -Aris
> > > 
> > > On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 10:56 PM Ned Strange 
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > are we the world's longest running internet game?
> > > > 
> > > > On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 7:57 AM, Kerim Aydin 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I was wondering a couple months back if a 25-year anniversary was an
> > > > > occasion for posting on various forums (e.g. a "hey check out a nomic
> > > > > that's been going for 25 years).
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Wed, 23 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > > > > > Aside from poaching other nomics for players lol, what is a good
> > > > approach
> > > > > > for recruiting? Posting in reddits/forums I guess?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > We could make a common copypasta for advertisement and go around
> > > > > > with
> > > > > that.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 11:35 PM, Kerim Aydin
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > On Thu, 24 May 2018, Ned Strange wrote:
> > > > > > > > Can we recruit new players lol? I miss o for one. And the
> > > > > > > > japanese
> > > > > > > > character guy. 6-7 is far less than we once had.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Yah it kind of got lost in the last exchange but that was a
> > > > > > > point...
> > > > > > > PSS too...
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --
> > > > From V.J. Rada
> > > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
>

Re: DIS: reality check

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Thu, 24 May 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote:


FRC launched around Feb-Mar 1993 (it's listed with other committees in the
"Seventh Month" summary here:
http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/nomicworld/norrish/
which matches my memory of writing the Nomic World committee rules over
the 92-93 winter holidays).

A question would be whether its gameplay was truly continuous when Nomic
World ended (or whether it "restarted" like NW -> Agora).  I also don't
know if it was continuous throughout the 90s - Murphy might know that.


It was continuous as long as I followed it closely.  The Ordinances had a 
provision allowing the Judge to change where posts should be made, which I 
did, being the Judge when the announcement that Nomic World was ending 
happened.


IIRC it then went from being played on the Yoyo list (where Agora later 
started), to being played by direct mail to all members, to being played 
on a mailing list hosted at NVG in Trondheim where I may have been the 
list administrator (my memory is vague, although I was definitely not 
sysadmin).  I'm not sure what happened after that.


Greetings,
Ørjan.



On Wed, 23 May 2018, Aris Merchant wrote:

We may not even be the world's longest running internet nomic. Presuming
the current FRC broke off directly from the original (which is pretty
likely, given the nomenclature and traditions), that's been up longer than
us.

-Aris

On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 10:56 PM Ned Strange 
wrote:


are we the world's longest running internet game?

On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 7:57 AM, Kerim Aydin 
wrote:




I was wondering a couple months back if a 25-year anniversary was an
occasion for posting on various forums (e.g. a "hey check out a nomic
that's been going for 25 years).

On Wed, 23 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:

Aside from poaching other nomics for players lol, what is a good

approach

for recruiting? Posting in reddits/forums I guess?

We could make a common copypasta for advertisement and go around with

that.


On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 11:35 PM, Kerim Aydin 
wrote:




On Thu, 24 May 2018, Ned Strange wrote:

Can we recruit new players lol? I miss o for one. And the japanese
character guy. 6-7 is far less than we once had.


Yah it kind of got lost in the last exchange but that was a point...
PSS too...












--
From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: reality check

[Kerim Aydin]

FRC launched around Feb-Mar 1993 (it's listed with other committees in the 
"Seventh Month" summary here: 
http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/nomicworld/norrish/ 
which matches my memory of writing the Nomic World committee rules over 
the 92-93 winter holidays).

A question would be whether its gameplay was truly continuous when Nomic
World ended (or whether it "restarted" like NW -> Agora).  I also don't
know if it was continuous throughout the 90s - Murphy might know that.

On Wed, 23 May 2018, Aris Merchant wrote:
> We may not even be the world's longest running internet nomic. Presuming
> the current FRC broke off directly from the original (which is pretty
> likely, given the nomenclature and traditions), that's been up longer than
> us.
> 
> -Aris
> 
> On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 10:56 PM Ned Strange 
> wrote:
> 
> > are we the world's longest running internet game?
> >
> > On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 7:57 AM, Kerim Aydin 
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I was wondering a couple months back if a 25-year anniversary was an
> > > occasion for posting on various forums (e.g. a "hey check out a nomic
> > > that's been going for 25 years).
> > >
> > > On Wed, 23 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > > > Aside from poaching other nomics for players lol, what is a good
> > approach
> > > > for recruiting? Posting in reddits/forums I guess?
> > > >
> > > > We could make a common copypasta for advertisement and go around with
> > > that.
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 11:35 PM, Kerim Aydin 
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, 24 May 2018, Ned Strange wrote:
> > > > > > Can we recruit new players lol? I miss o for one. And the japanese
> > > > > > character guy. 6-7 is far less than we once had.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yah it kind of got lost in the last exchange but that was a point...
> > > > > PSS too...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > From V.J. Rada
> >
>

Re: DIS: reality check

[Aris Merchant]

We may not even be the world's longest running internet nomic. Presuming
the current FRC broke off directly from the original (which is pretty
likely, given the nomenclature and traditions), that's been up longer than
us.

-Aris

On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 10:56 PM Ned Strange 
wrote:

> are we the world's longest running internet game?
>
> On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 7:57 AM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I was wondering a couple months back if a 25-year anniversary was an
> > occasion for posting on various forums (e.g. a "hey check out a nomic
> > that's been going for 25 years).
> >
> > On Wed, 23 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > > Aside from poaching other nomics for players lol, what is a good
> approach
> > > for recruiting? Posting in reddits/forums I guess?
> > >
> > > We could make a common copypasta for advertisement and go around with
> > that.
> > >
> > > On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 11:35 PM, Kerim Aydin 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 24 May 2018, Ned Strange wrote:
> > > > > Can we recruit new players lol? I miss o for one. And the japanese
> > > > > character guy. 6-7 is far less than we once had.
> > > >
> > > > Yah it kind of got lost in the last exchange but that was a point...
> > > > PSS too...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: reality check

[Ned Strange]

are we the world's longest running internet game?

On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 7:57 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> I was wondering a couple months back if a 25-year anniversary was an
> occasion for posting on various forums (e.g. a "hey check out a nomic
> that's been going for 25 years).
>
> On Wed, 23 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > Aside from poaching other nomics for players lol, what is a good approach
> > for recruiting? Posting in reddits/forums I guess?
> >
> > We could make a common copypasta for advertisement and go around with
> that.
> >
> > On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 11:35 PM, Kerim Aydin 
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 24 May 2018, Ned Strange wrote:
> > > > Can we recruit new players lol? I miss o for one. And the japanese
> > > > character guy. 6-7 is far less than we once had.
> > >
> > > Yah it kind of got lost in the last exchange but that was a point...
> > > PSS too...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>


-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: reality check

[Kerim Aydin]

I was wondering a couple months back if a 25-year anniversary was an
occasion for posting on various forums (e.g. a "hey check out a nomic
that's been going for 25 years).

On Wed, 23 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> Aside from poaching other nomics for players lol, what is a good approach
> for recruiting? Posting in reddits/forums I guess?
> 
> We could make a common copypasta for advertisement and go around with that.
> 
> On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 11:35 PM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 24 May 2018, Ned Strange wrote:
> > > Can we recruit new players lol? I miss o for one. And the japanese
> > > character guy. 6-7 is far less than we once had.
> >
> > Yah it kind of got lost in the last exchange but that was a point...
> > PSS too...
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: DIS: reality check

[Cuddle Beam]

Aside from poaching other nomics for players lol, what is a good approach
for recruiting? Posting in reddits/forums I guess?

We could make a common copypasta for advertisement and go around with that.

On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 11:35 PM, Kerim Aydin 
wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 24 May 2018, Ned Strange wrote:
> > Can we recruit new players lol? I miss o for one. And the japanese
> > character guy. 6-7 is far less than we once had.
>
> Yah it kind of got lost in the last exchange but that was a point...
> PSS too...
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: reality check

[Kerim Aydin]

On Thu, 24 May 2018, Ned Strange wrote:
> Can we recruit new players lol? I miss o for one. And the japanese
> character guy. 6-7 is far less than we once had.

Yah it kind of got lost in the last exchange but that was a point...
PSS too...

Re: DIS: reality check

[Ned Strange]

Can we recruit new players lol? I miss o for one. And the japanese
character guy. 6-7 is far less than we once had.

On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 7:17 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, 23 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > What could maybe be done is have Offices be "self-service" in a way. If
> you
> > want to do something related to it, you look for the last mail and
> continue
> > the chain.
> >
> > It would be a different Office paradigm though. But maybe it works. With
> > the current system, Offices don't scale well with low activity (but scale
> > really well into massive activity).
>
> How does it work with tracking microtransactions in a dozen currencies
> along with land production of same currencies?  In particular if we allow
> people to transfer "all their currencies" or similar not-immediately-
> determinate conditionals?)  Or if transfer success/failure depends on
> other game circumstances (e.g. you try to pay for pending a proposal but
> it's already pended).
>
> Self-service websites might work for basic transactions, but this drops
> flexibility (like allowing act-on-behalfs, contracts, etc.), and even if
> such a site captures 90% of the transactions, someone would still have to
> do the remaining 10% by hand and then the time savings are lost.
>
> The underlying issue is that part of "Flavor of Agora" to preserve is
> figuring out how you can use (or abuse) language to do all these
> complicated things within the constraints of announcements. And since we
> like to do that kind of thing, having "the next person in line" have to
> figure out whether your transaction succeeded before doing theirs is a
> recipe for uncertainty. (with an Officer, you get a consistent viewpoint
> and a single source of CFJ calling when the Officer can't sort it out).
>
> I'm not meaning to be negative here at all just thinking through the
> possibilities.  I'd *love* to do Land through a web interface with
> instant feedback.
>
>
>
>


-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: reality check

[Kerim Aydin]

On Wed, 23 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> What could maybe be done is have Offices be "self-service" in a way. If you
> want to do something related to it, you look for the last mail and continue
> the chain.
> 
> It would be a different Office paradigm though. But maybe it works. With
> the current system, Offices don't scale well with low activity (but scale
> really well into massive activity).

How does it work with tracking microtransactions in a dozen currencies 
along with land production of same currencies?  In particular if we allow
people to transfer "all their currencies" or similar not-immediately-
determinate conditionals?)  Or if transfer success/failure depends on
other game circumstances (e.g. you try to pay for pending a proposal but
it's already pended).

Self-service websites might work for basic transactions, but this drops 
flexibility (like allowing act-on-behalfs, contracts, etc.), and even if
such a site captures 90% of the transactions, someone would still have to 
do the remaining 10% by hand and then the time savings are lost.   

The underlying issue is that part of "Flavor of Agora" to preserve is 
figuring out how you can use (or abuse) language to do all these 
complicated things within the constraints of announcements. And since we
like to do that kind of thing, having "the next person in line" have to
figure out whether your transaction succeeded before doing theirs is a
recipe for uncertainty. (with an Officer, you get a consistent viewpoint
and a single source of CFJ calling when the Officer can't sort it out).

I'm not meaning to be negative here at all just thinking through the
possibilities.  I'd *love* to do Land through a web interface with
instant feedback.

Re: DIS: reality check

[Kerim Aydin]

On Wed, 23 May 2018, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > So the only one to attribute balance/needing a reset as a reason for not 
> > playing
> was CuddleBeam?
> 
> Also, to clarify, I much prefer a reset to a nerf. I don't like nerfs. From
> my point of view, you earned the power you have. Game balance is totally
> not a problem for me - because I believe that it's been balanced all along.
> It's just that I haven't been able to benefit from the fruits of early
> participation and I feel bad for missing out on that, so the solution is to
> wait for a new round before going for it again.
> 
> Nerfs to try to incentivize activity annoys me lol. It's like if the
> players who want it (those who are suffering from what they want nerfed)
> are holding activity hostage and won't give any until the rest comply to
> their demands. It doesn't feel right and I'd feel guilty for participating
> in it.

That's a more BlogNomic or FRC mentality where "full resets" are an official
and regular part of play that end in well-specified rounds.  We've never had
that setup.  Almost all win conditions outside of Contests don't reset the
state for everyone else (Ribbons are the perfect example).  We've been going 
for more of an "economy" feel which means if a sector of the economy gets
out of control, you tax/regulate ("nerf") it going forward while not
stealing everything from those who got ahead.

I mean we do scrap entire systems for new ones but it's because we're 
collectively tired of the system, not because the "round is over".  When we 
tried a bit of that mechanic (via "Eras") no one ever agreed to reset.

Re: DIS: reality check

[Cuddle Beam]

> So the only one to attribute balance/needing a reset as a reason for not 
> playing
was CuddleBeam?

Also, to clarify, I much prefer a reset to a nerf. I don't like nerfs. From
my point of view, you earned the power you have. Game balance is totally
not a problem for me - because I believe that it's been balanced all along.
It's just that I haven't been able to benefit from the fruits of early
participation and I feel bad for missing out on that, so the solution is to
wait for a new round before going for it again.

Nerfs to try to incentivize activity annoys me lol. It's like if the
players who want it (those who are suffering from what they want nerfed)
are holding activity hostage and won't give any until the rest comply to
their demands. It doesn't feel right and I'd feel guilty for participating
in it.

On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 5:38 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:

> What could maybe be done is have Offices be "self-service" in a way. If
> you want to do something related to it, you look for the last mail and
> continue the chain.
>
> It would be a different Office paradigm though. But maybe it works. With
> the current system, Offices don't scale well with low activity (but scale
> really well into massive activity).
>
> On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 2:41 PM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 22 May 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>> > VJ. Rada and PSS voted FOR, Trigon, Aris, ATMunn, G. (counted twice),
>> > and o voted AGAINST, and Murphy voted PRESENT.
>>
>> ok, looking at this voting list, these are all the folks that have kept
>> playing recently, and those frustrated with the current gameplay have
>> Said
>> Something instead of vanishing (and we're trying to fix that stuff).
>>
>> On our players list, the missing are Galean (who has disappeared a couple
>> times before), Ouri (who was basically a drive-by) and Kenyon.  I find it
>> odd that Kenyon would implement Rulekeeping and then vanish because of
>> gameplay frustration without saying anything (more likely just RL though
>> dunno of course).
>>
>> So the only one to attribute balance/needing a reset as a reason for not
>> playing was CuddleBeam? (who mentioned that the Agoran gameplay other
>> than long essays/CFJs is not eir style in general, anyway).
>>
>> Not that we don't need to fix imbalances but it doesn't seem to be the
>> major barrier to participation.  At this size (6 or 7) keeping the
>> offices going is a real struggle (and I was hoping for a bit of a break
>> in June honestly tho I guess if it's slow that can just happen...)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: reality check

[Cuddle Beam]

What could maybe be done is have Offices be "self-service" in a way. If you
want to do something related to it, you look for the last mail and continue
the chain.

It would be a different Office paradigm though. But maybe it works. With
the current system, Offices don't scale well with low activity (but scale
really well into massive activity).

On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 2:41 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, 22 May 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> > VJ. Rada and PSS voted FOR, Trigon, Aris, ATMunn, G. (counted twice),
> > and o voted AGAINST, and Murphy voted PRESENT.
>
> ok, looking at this voting list, these are all the folks that have kept
> playing recently, and those frustrated with the current gameplay have Said
> Something instead of vanishing (and we're trying to fix that stuff).
>
> On our players list, the missing are Galean (who has disappeared a couple
> times before), Ouri (who was basically a drive-by) and Kenyon.  I find it
> odd that Kenyon would implement Rulekeeping and then vanish because of
> gameplay frustration without saying anything (more likely just RL though
> dunno of course).
>
> So the only one to attribute balance/needing a reset as a reason for not
> playing was CuddleBeam? (who mentioned that the Agoran gameplay other
> than long essays/CFJs is not eir style in general, anyway).
>
> Not that we don't need to fix imbalances but it doesn't seem to be the
> major barrier to participation.  At this size (6 or 7) keeping the
> offices going is a real struggle (and I was hoping for a bit of a break
> in June honestly tho I guess if it's slow that can just happen...)
>
>
>
>

DIS: reality check

[Kerim Aydin]

On Tue, 22 May 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote: 
> VJ. Rada and PSS voted FOR, Trigon, Aris, ATMunn, G. (counted twice), 
> and o voted AGAINST, and Murphy voted PRESENT.  

ok, looking at this voting list, these are all the folks that have kept
playing recently, and those frustrated with the current gameplay have Said 
Something instead of vanishing (and we're trying to fix that stuff).  

On our players list, the missing are Galean (who has disappeared a couple 
times before), Ouri (who was basically a drive-by) and Kenyon.  I find it
odd that Kenyon would implement Rulekeeping and then vanish because of 
gameplay frustration without saying anything (more likely just RL though 
dunno of course).

So the only one to attribute balance/needing a reset as a reason for not 
playing was CuddleBeam? (who mentioned that the Agoran gameplay other
than long essays/CFJs is not eir style in general, anyway).

Not that we don't need to fix imbalances but it doesn't seem to be the 
major barrier to participation.  At this size (6 or 7) keeping the
offices going is a real struggle (and I was hoping for a bit of a break
in June honestly tho I guess if it's slow that can just happen...)