Re: Unloading tapes when task done ?
Its sorta like when you go to your kar mechanic. The job is not complete till you put all of your tools away, and cleaned your work area for the next job. That would be the mechanics responsibility, and not the cleaning staff that follows in the evening. But at this moment, some 18hours after amanda started, it is still going, and only on the third ( of an estimated 6 tape backup ). So the unload/eject is the least of my current concerns with regard to getting a backup to happen. Right now the most efficient system i have would be to run tar cMf remoteHost:/dev/st0 / directly on the remote system. after each EOT i will run a shell script to change to the next tape. AFTER I DO THIS CORRECTLY, only then will I get a TRUE feel of the time needed to do this phase of the task. /gat John R. Jackson wrote: Maybe they can OPT-OUT of the feature ... It's just as easy for someone to opt-in and do their own tape operations when Amanda is done. Amanda will currently support both camps -- unload it when done vs. leave it alone. Why add more complexity? We already have too many options (and lots of other things on the TODO list). btw, what do u mean each operation. ... I meant amdump and amflush. John R. Jackson, Technical Software Specialist, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Unloading tapes when task done ?
DLT's are not flying head technology. They are like 9trk, QIC, i think travan, colorado. The heads do not spin ( i had to think about it ), as the heads move up down to change tracks. But the DLT 8000, now, also place the heads at an angle to tape direction, as well as going up and down. I dont even think there is an idler pully, just a tach. I'd like to know if there is 'continual' tension on the tape while it is loaded ( on a dlt )( Like that of a DEC Tape, or 9trk ) but I do not know. But for whatever technology reasons the schemes that tape mechanisms have evolved, they all rely on knowing what 'state' that they are in. When you have a power outage, turn off the drive, lightning, whatever, you may find that the tape left inside the mechanism to be of little use to you. Quantum says dont do that, AND i'd bet that the legal staff of the other drive manufacturers will never certify that you will always recover a tape left inside the mechanism. Gene Heskett wrote: I'd love to see the tapes stored and used at or slightly below 50 degrees F, and 50% relative humidity as the tape is many times less abrasive then. Some TV stations have even gone so far as to store their tapes in a small room adjacent to the control room which is maintained in the 40 degree and 40% range. Everyting lasts longer, a lot longer. But i suppose that if you needed a tape right away, you'd have to wait for the temp rise, otherwise ud get condensation on the kolder tapes. The tape makers themselves recommend it too, and have data to
Re: Unloading tapes when task done ?
On Thursday 04 April 2002 07:33 am, Uncle George wrote: DLT's are not flying head technology. They are like 9trk, QIC, i think travan, colorado. The heads do not spin ( i had to think about it ), as the heads move up down to change tracks. But the DLT 8000, now, also place the heads at an angle to tape direction, as well as going up and down. I dont even think there is an idler pully, just a tach. I'd like to know if there is 'continual' tension on the tape while it is loaded ( on a dlt )( Like that of a DEC Tape, or 9trk ) but I do not know. I see, thanks. Interesting to see that asimuth changes are also being used to pack tracks tighter in the linear drives too these days. But for whatever technology reasons the schemes that tape mechanisms have evolved, they all rely on knowing what 'state' that they are in. When you have a power outage, turn off the drive, lightning, whatever, you may find that the tape left inside the mechanism to be of little use to you. Quantum says dont do that, AND i'd bet that the legal staff of the other drive manufacturers will never certify that you will always recover a tape left inside the mechanism. Since *you* are the tape changer in this case, I can see why the requested operations would be to your advantage. Gene Heskett wrote: I'd love to see the tapes stored and used at or slightly below 50 degrees F, and 50% relative humidity as the tape is many times less abrasive then. Some TV stations have even gone so far as to store their tapes in a small room adjacent to the control room which is maintained in the 40 degree and 40% range. Everyting lasts longer, a lot longer. But i suppose that if you needed a tape right away, you'd have to wait for the temp rise, otherwise ud get condensation on the kolder tapes. As the control room in this case was handled by yet another duct from the same AC, and therefore pretty dry too, it wasn't a problem. Commercials came out, got loaded, played, and put away with not more than 5 minutes between the time they were brought out, and loaded into the players. With spinning head tech, any dew will tell you right quick as you'll load up a tape, and have 20 feet of it wrapped around the drum as the dew film will make it grab the spinning head. Its messy, and as our newsroom folks recently found, expensive. The locked up head drum proceeded to burn up the servo boards so badly we had to replace them, at $700 a copy, 3 copies, knocking out 3 of the 5 cameras they had. 14 pin tsop chips got so hot they burned halfway thru the epoxy board under them. We have at this point, discussed this well enough that the rest of the readers can make intelligent decisions based on the technology of their individual drives. -- Cheers, Gene AMD K6-III@500mhz 320M Athlon1600XP@1400mhz 512M 98.7+% setiathome rank, not too shabby for a hillbilly
Unloading tapes when task done ?
It seems like when the whole procedure ( whether its labeling tape(s), amchecking tape, or amdumping ) is complete, the tape is left in the tape drive in an on-line state. Is there some reason why the tape is not at least rewind-offlined, or for tape changer folks rewoffl/unload'ed back to the carousel slot when the job/task is finished? Just my 2 cents
Re: Unloading tapes when task done ?
* Uncle George [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 06:19:19AM -0500) It seems like when the whole procedure ( whether its labeling tape(s), amchecking tape, or amdumping ) is complete, the tape is left in the tape drive in an on-line state. Is there some reason why the tape is not at least rewind-offlined, or for tape changer folks rewoffl/unload'ed back to the carousel slot when the job/task is finished? Dunno, my crontab sez: 0 18 * * 1-5 /volume/amanda/sbin/amdump lto; mt -f /dev/rmt/3h rewoffl works like a charm. Currently listening to: Helloween - If I Could Fly Gerhard, @jasongeo.com == The Acoustic Motorbiker == -- __O Some say the end is near. =`\, Some say we'll see armageddon soon (=)/(=) I certainly hope we will I could use a vacation
Re: Unloading tapes when task done ?
I dunno either, will it work on a 6 drive auto changer/tape library? /gat Dunno, my crontab sez: 0 18 * * 1-5 /volume/amanda/sbin/amdump lto; mt -f /dev/rmt/3h rewoffl works like a charm.
Re: Unloading tapes when task done ?
On Wednesday 03 April 2002 06:19 am, Uncle George wrote: It seems like when the whole procedure ( whether its labeling tape(s), amchecking tape, or amdumping ) is complete, the tape is left in the tape drive in an on-line state. Is there some reason why the tape is not at least rewind-offlined, or for tape changer folks rewoffl/unload'ed back to the carousel slot when the job/task is finished? Just my 2 cents I'd druther it didn't. By leaving the tape online, the display on the front of the changer tells me what slot is loaded. If its the last slot, and its after the runtime for amdump, then I know to change tapes. -- Cheers, Gene AMD K6-III@500mhz 320M Athlon1600XP@1400mhz 512M 98.7+% setiathome rank, not too shabby for a hillbilly
Re: Unloading tapes when task done ?
Is there some reason why the tape is not at least rewind-offlined ... Because other users specifically asked for it to be left alone (we had to remove code that used to rewind after each operation). I assume they run something else after amdump (for instance) to tack on a little more data to the tape. And in the case of a changer, offlining the drive may cause other things to happen, such as dropping the stack and loading the next tape, which might not be what you want. Better that we leave things alone and if a particular setup needs something different, it's easy for them to do. John R. Jackson, Technical Software Specialist, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Unloading tapes when task done ?
Guess I'm from old school. Older 9trk drives when left on, continually have the vacuum on, and under constant tension. Its not healthy for the tape. Does that happen with a DLT tape, how about the DDS tapes. I would NOT like a live tape to be left in the drive for long periods of time. Who knows when a power failure will hit, who knows when the drive will go awol. An unloaded tape, immediately after backup, is safe from other folks, as well as the server, writing onto it. Gene Heskett wrote: I'd druther it didn't. By leaving the tape online, the display
Re: Unloading tapes when task done ?
Maybe they can OPT-OUT of the feature, but on a busy site, allowing the customers to access the tape drives, would appear to make good business sense. Particularily when the drives are doing just nothing. /gat btw, what do u mean each operation. Each run? If funny things happen, maybe they should be addressed. After all, you got all these logs, and status files hanging around. John R. Jackson wrote: Is there some reason why the tape is not at least rewind-offlined ... Because other users specifically asked for it to be left alone (we had to remove code that used to rewind after each operation). I assume they run something else after amdump (for instance) to tack on a little more data to the tape. And in the case of a changer, offlining the drive may cause other things to happen, such as dropping the stack and loading the next tape, which might not be what you want. Better that we leave things alone and if a particular setup needs something different, it's easy for them to do. John R. Jackson, Technical Software Specialist, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Unloading tapes when task done ?
Jay Lessert wrote: On Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 06:19:19AM -0500, Uncle George wrote: It seems like when the whole procedure ( whether its labeling tape(s), amchecking tape, or amdumping ) is complete, the tape is left in the tape drive in an on-line state. Is there some reason why the tape is not at least rewind-offlined, or for tape changer folks rewoffl/unload'ed back to the carousel slot when the job/task is finished? 1) You would piss off people that are already doing: amdump DAILY; amverify DAILY ...from cron on a non-changer drive. Maybe a visit to the toilet facility would do wonders to your disposition. Its exceptionally arrogant of you to speak for us all. Since you dont know how it will be implemented, i can only wonder how you or god know that this will be true. 2) Since it's already so easy to do any of: amdump DAILY; amtape DAILY eject amdump DAILY; amtape DAILY slot next amdump DAILY; amtape DAILY slot advance ...or anything else that makes sense for your particular installation, why hardwire some particular behavior into amdump (which would then inevitably be exactly the wrong behavior for some other poor schmoe's particular installation)? Amazingly arrogant. I might think that on a power failure, as Quantum points out, they will not be responsible for the tape left inside the drive. AND i agree with their, slightly over stated, belief. The purpose of a backup is not just to do a backup, but be able to restore that data - generally when Kaos strikes. A trashed tape, even to the poor schlep who believes in you, is of no use to anyone. When you are finished, take the tape out, and put it in a safe place. BTW who said it was, or has to be hardwired. it need not be any more 'hardwired' than dumpcycle 0, or compress none, or simply a EjectWhenDone yes . BTW#2 you should be doing an amdump BACKUP; amtape BACKUP physically_set_write_protect_tab; amverify BACKUP
Re: Unloading tapes when task done ?
I Beleive you are in error. 4mm dds simply have the head stop spinning, the tape is still wrapped around in the mechanism. The DLT I have does not unload at all, unless specifically directed to. Maybe you can show me where u got your information from ? Maybe i can find the quantum docs that say 'dont do that'. Jay Lessert wrote: On Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 08:58:29AM -0500, Uncle George wrote: Guess I'm from old school. Older 9trk drives when left on, continually have the vacuum on, and under constant tension. Its not healthy for the tape. Does that happen with a DLT tape, how about the DDS tapes. 8mm, AIT*, DDS*, DLT*, LTO* drives all unload the tape (unwrap the tape from around the head and power down the servos) after some hardwired time period. I would NOT like a live tape to be left in the drive for long periods of time. Then don't. Is there something you need to do that amtape doesn't know how to do? -- Jay Lessert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Accelerant Networks Inc. (voice)1.503.439.3461 Beaverton OR, USA(fax)1.503.466-9472
Re: Unloading tapes when task done ?
Maybe they can OPT-OUT of the feature ... It's just as easy for someone to opt-in and do their own tape operations when Amanda is done. Amanda will currently support both camps -- unload it when done vs. leave it alone. Why add more complexity? We already have too many options (and lots of other things on the TODO list). btw, what do u mean each operation. ... I meant amdump and amflush. John R. Jackson, Technical Software Specialist, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Unloading tapes when task done ?
On Wednesday 03 April 2002 08:58 am, Uncle George wrote: Guess I'm from old school. Older 9trk drives when left on, continually have the vacuum on, and under constant tension. Its not healthy for the tape. Does that happen with a DLT tape, how about the DDS tapes. I'd have to assume that the DLT, which I know nothing about, shares such a feature with which nearly all other drives, including professional vcr's, that has a timeout of a minute or so, and, like the DDS drives I have, does a backout of the loading mechanism thereby removing the tape from contact with the scanner drum, usually with one supply or takeup spindle braked, and shuts the head drum down at the same time. The drive then gradually cools to match its resting temps and the tape is mostly protected and not subjected to the internal heat rise the drive does when its active. I do not consider the roughly 80 degree temps my tapes have when I eject the magazine as being that hard on the tape if the tape is not in motion. I'd love to see the tapes stored and used at or slightly below 50 degrees F, and 50% relative humidity as the tape is many times less abrasive then. Some TV stations have even gone so far as to store their tapes in a small room adjacent to the control room which is maintained in the 40 degree and 40% range. Everyting lasts longer, a lot longer. The tape makers themselves recommend it too, and have data to show that a tape used and stored at 90/90 for temp and RH, is not just marginally more abrasive, but dozens of times more abrasive. That effect was brought home to me many years ago when a headwheel failed in a now old 2 broadcast vtr. The wheel had over 7000 hours of runtime on it, and the failure was in a rotary transformer. We sent it back for repair. It was re-installed and ran till something over 9000 runtime hours was used and it was worn out. That headwheel came with a 200 hour prorated warranty as it had soft tips. No, I didn't forget a decimal there. The machine was in a precipitron clean, dry, cold room. Under more usual conditions I've seen them fail in 125 hours. But we don't have those conditions inside the typical computers case, not by a long shot. I would NOT like a live tape to be left in the drive for long periods of time. Who knows when a power failure will hit, who knows when the drive will go awol. An unloaded tape, immediately after backup, is safe from other folks, as well as the server, writing onto it. I'd consider that a problem only in those drives like older QIC's, that leave everything engaged for long periods of time, thereby denting the drive rollers etc. -- Cheers, Gene AMD K6-III@500mhz 320M Athlon1600XP@1400mhz 512M 98.7+% setiathome rank, not too shabby for a hillbilly
