[amsat-bb] Re: Orbitron help please
On 10/27/2012 07:31 PM, John Heath wrote: Hi All, Just updated keps for noaa weather satellites from Celestrak and find the the file contains mostltly birds that are no longer operational. How can I delete the unwanted birds. Using GNU grep 2.5.4 on Linux: grep -F -f wanted.sat -A 2 weather.txt use_this.tle The file 'wanted.sat' is a simple text file with a list of desired satellites, one per line. Example (using amateur satellites): 8-8-- OSCAR 7 EYESAT-1 JAS-2 PCSAT HAMSAT 8-8-- Grep picks any satellites that matches your listed names, and outputs the name and the two-line data immediately following. It adds a separator line between each, but I've never had a problem. AAMOF (and correct me if I'm wrong) but the TLE format is specifically supposed to ignore additional lines that don't conform to the TLE format. Not running Linux? Start today! ;-) Or, look for 'grep' for Windows here: http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/grep.htm -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: In space no one can hear you scream
On 10/26/2012 04:39 PM, Trevor . wrote: The UK STRaND-1 Nanosat being built by volunteers in Guildford will host a several Android Apps. One of the Apps was developed by Cambridge University Spaceflight, see http://www.uk.amsat.org/?p=11267 Angry birds? -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: fund raising for Fox
On 10/20/2012 06:46 PM, K4FEG wrote: The fee schedule would be as follows: Members; $1.00 per post, Non-members; $1.50 per post, a monthly charge for members of $60.00 per month for unlimited posts for that month and non-members a monthly charge $100.00 for the same unlimited monthly posting. Then there could be an annual charge to members of $500.00 for 1 year of unlimited postings or for non-members an annual charge of $750.00 for unlimited postings. This begs the question (one that is of interest for more than this reason): Who is a member, as far as this list is concerned? I mean, would members of AMSAT-DL have to pay the member rate, or the non-member rate? AMSAT-UK? AMSAT-NZ? AMSAT-VK? CAMSAT? What if I form AMSAT-BB? I realize that the list is operated by AMSAT-NA, but it doesn't call itself the AMSAT-NA-BB. So is this list supposed to be for all AMSAT members, globally? Or are members of other AMSAT groups to consider themselves outsiders, from the point of view of posting privileges, fees, credibility, etc, etc? -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: CAS-2A1 and CAS-2A2 Linear Transponder Amateur Radio Satellites
On 10/18/2012 04:45 PM, Trevor . wrote: I like the look of these two satellites. See http://www.uk.amsat.org/?p=11108 This pair would give a theoretical max comms distance of around 13,430 kliometers or 8,345 miles. -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: OH2AUE P3E transponder demo video
On 10/18/2012 02:47 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: On 18/10/12 03:28, Gus 8P6SM wrote: On 10/17/2012 05:38 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: We're going to have to try coming up with clever satellites, rather than flying a bent-pipe box the size of a fridge. No-one is going to want to lift that, without us paying full price. I may not be 100% on the 'bent pipe' definition, but if it means hams 'talk' on the UP and other hams 'listens' on the DOWN, then that's what What I am referring to is linear transponders. They're heavy and consume a lot of power. We need to either devise a new way of doing that, that doesn't involve heavy inefficient linear amplifiers, or stick to something like FM or GMSK where a little lightweight PA that doesn't dissipate most of the input power as heat will do the job. A full-duty-cycle FM transponder that eats up the entire bandwidth of the satellite to allow a single ham to communicate strikes me as far less sensible than an efficient linear transponder that allows multiple simultaneous contacts and does not run the PA at full duty cycle. But never the less, I don't really care what the operating mode for communication is, so long as there actually *IS* an operating mode for communication. Satellites that DON'T allow hams to communicate are not of any interest to me, and (IMHO) are not relevant in any discussion of AMATEUR satellites. we need. Whether it be the size of a fridge of a matchbox, if ham radio operators can't use it to communicate, then it's pretty pointless. It If it's big it won't fly, unless you pay for the whole flight. Have you noticed how airlines have stopped carrying children for free, too? And most people have long ago stopped whining about it and now simply pay for their children to fly. So let's pay for a flight and stop whinging about how we can't get a free one. don't matter how much telemetry it sends, how many LEDs it blinks, how clever the beacons, or what purty pictures it downlinks. If hams can't use it to QSO, then why bother? It depends what you're trying to achieve. I'll respond to Domenico's comments here, too. Most satellites are not built by radio amateurs. They're not there so you can talk to your friends. They are built so the engineering students that will build the satellites and spacecraft of the future. Most satellites have nothing whatsoever to do with the engineering students of the future. But we don't get all goo-goo eyed over the launch of some military spy-sat because it has nothing to do with amateur radio. And neither do most of the cubesats. Like it or not, amateur radio is a secondary service on 70cm. We don't own that chunk of band. If you want to work a band free from beep sats, stick to 2m and good luck with your build. Uh-oh! As a recent posting leads us to understand, UMSATS TSat-1 uses 437 *and* 145 MHz amateur radio bands. Is the 2 meter band a secondary service as well? -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: shoe box sats
On 10/18/2012 06:55 AM, Nick Pugh wrote: I believe the amateur community is well served by the shoe box designers. If we want amateur payloads we should do 1. Have off the shelf radios in their form factor that are very cheap I agree. I'd even say very cheap as in completely free. 2. Be ready to mentors most school lack radio resources I agree again. Sign me up. 3. Team up with schools that are developing propulsion systems ( our ride to HEO) Three times is a charm! -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: CAS-2A1 and CAS-2A2 Linear Transponder Amateur Radio Satellites
On 10/18/2012 04:45 PM, Trevor . wrote: I like the look of these two satellites. See http://www.uk.amsat.org/?p=11108 Me too! I especially like the idea of the 1260/2400 MHz transponder with 200 kHz of bandwidth! -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: LEO to HEO
On 10/18/2012 06:16 PM, STeve Andre' wrote: It absolutely could be done -- with the right amount of money. I'm not sure that a kick motor would ultimately be cheaper than a flight designed to get something into HEO, nor as safe. I think the problem with traditional kick motors is that they're big and heavy. Pretty much mandating a Fridge-Sat, not a Rubik-Sat. Other propulsion systems may be better suited to a small format. I wonder what would happen if you electrically detonated a large firearms cartridge in a small satellite. I mean, exactly how much of a 'kick' do you need to get a small satellite up to a reasonable height? Perhaps this is an experiment some university should conduct. -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: OH2AUE P3E transponder demo video
On 10/17/2012 05:38 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: We're going to have to try coming up with clever satellites, rather than flying a bent-pipe box the size of a fridge. No-one is going to want to lift that, without us paying full price. I may not be 100% on the 'bent pipe' definition, but if it means hams 'talk' on the UP and other hams 'listens' on the DOWN, then that's what we need. Whether it be the size of a fridge of a matchbox, if ham radio operators can't use it to communicate, then it's pretty pointless. It don't matter how much telemetry it sends, how many LEDs it blinks, how clever the beacons, or what purty pictures it downlinks. If hams can't use it to QSO, then why bother? -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM, Evil DXing ragchewer! ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: space rated thread lock
On 10/14/2012 10:23 PM, Howie DeFelice wrote: Can someone suggest a thread locking liquid that can be used in space and possibly a source. Not trying to be funny, but what about solder? Or some sort of adhesive like epoxy or CA? I mean, it's not like you're going to need to unfasten it (whatever) at some later date, right? -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: OH2AUE P3E transponder demo video
On 10/15/2012 05:55 PM, Clayton Coleman wrote: I don't agree with these elitist arguments for intentionally making things difficult. This anti-easy-sat mentality doesn't buy us anything. Let the dead horse decompose. I don't think anybody actually wants to make things deliberately harder. But hams have always pushed the boundaries. Going further with less power and less bandwidth. Fooling around with useless frequencies above 1 MHz. And so forth. And the satellite operator is no different. It may be easy to reliably work a future generation of satellites with an HT and a rubber duckie. But that won't be challenging. And we (the operators) won't be learning anything new. Driving innovation and spawning a new generation of experimenters is a more realistic vision. Create opportunities for people to step outside their box and homebrew equipment. That excites people. Which is a long way of saying I want hard sats! :-) -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: OH2AUE P3E transponder demo video
sound all that hard! -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Newbie in Satellite for Amateur Com
On 10/10/2012 02:19 AM, situs...@bshellz.net wrote: Hi, I'm a newbie for amateur satellite stuff, and I want to gain a deep knowledge and experience in it. It's very old and hard to find, but The Satellite Experimenters Handbook by Martin Davidoff K2UBC will give you fundamental knowledge on satellites, orbits, tracking, antennas, feedlines, etc. The book is old, but the laws of celestial mechanics haven't changed. I have a 2-meter band VHF transceiver handheld radio, and has 5 watt for the output power. Can I use the radio to communicate with any satellites that support VHF? You will need to operate on two bands, to work satellite. I can't think of any satellites offhand that operate on a single band. You will use one band to transmit TO the bird (uplink) and a separate band to receive sigs FROM the bird (downlink). Can you get some 70cm gear? If you can transmit/receive both VHF 2M and UHF 70cm, you can operate Mode-B (70cm UPlink and 2M DOWNlink) or Mode_J (2M UPlink and 70cm DOWNlink). Some birds operate FM, some use a linear transponder for use with CW/SSB. It's *possible* to run FM through a linear transponder but it's frowned upon because it hits the satellite batteries harder, not to mention bogarts the passband. Failing this, if you have an HF rig and know CW, you could try AO-7 via Mode-A (VHF 2M up, HF 10M down). Put a key across the PTT line of an FM rig, disconnect the mic (no modulation of the carrier) and you have a poor-man's CW rig on 2M. Listen to your sigs and hopefully a few replies on your HF rig. And please direct me to the resource that I need to start building my first small station. Thank you in advance. Well, once you have gear for two bands, you will need antennas. A rubber duckie is workable, but far from ideal. Popular these days are small, hand-held yagis, of various designs. But you could experiment with other designs, such as the quadrifilar helix, the turnstile, the lindenblad, and so forth. How do you wish to operate? Portable, from all over the place? From your own back yard? Out of your shack? -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: EU members - UHF contest tonight?
On 10/09/2012 04:13 PM, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote: Just now on AO-7 I heard a terrestrial station (DL on LSB) working a contest of some sort. He was pretty weak here, but thought I copied G4VF? His frequency would have been 432.160 or so. Always interesting hearing the unintentional sat ops...reminds me of RS-12/13. 73, Drew KO4MA I can recall (many years ago) during a perigee pass of AO-13 over SA, I could clearly hear SA stations working terrestrial UHF FM, mobile, with the satellite on the omni antennas. Perhaps I should have sent out QSL cards with SWL reports, just to encourage those operators to consider the possibility of raising their eyes above the horizon. -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: [Bod] Experimental COMMERCIAL spacecraft on 2meters
On 10/03/2012 08:52 PM, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote: http://www.amsatuk.me.uk/iaru/finished_detail.php?serialnum=220 And evidently coordinated by IARU! Sent from my iPhone On Oct 3, 2012, at 8:47 PM, Andrew Glasbrennerglasbren...@mindspring.com wrote: https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=currentapplication_seq=50076RequestTimeout=1000 Am I reading this right? A commercial s/c operating on 145.825 This is the camels nose under the tent, using our own packet network for automated telemetry? I can understand the uni cubesats on UHF, butthis is OUR primary allocation. We really need to protest this vehemently if they were approved. 73, Drew KO4MA Sent from my iPhone ___ Via the BOD mailing list at AMSAT.ORG courtesy of AMSAT-NA http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/bod Seems like we're all about to receive an education! -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: maximum AO-7 distance
On 10/01/2012 02:47 AM, Bob- W7LRD wrote: to my AO-7 afictionados...what is the maximum distance one can work edge to edge, and how did you figure that out? 73 Bob W7LRD Maximum communications distance: MCD = 2 R arccos [ R / (R + h) ] where R = Radius of earth (Spherical earth: 6371 Km) h = Height at apogee (Eq 12.4, Sat. Experimenters Handbook 2nd Ed; Davidoff) All you need is the apogee height for the satellite in question, and a calculator. For AO-7 the apogee height USED to be 1460 Km, and probably hasn't altered much over the years. Therefore: MCD = 2 * 6371 * arccos [ 6371 / (6371 + 1460) ] = 12756 * arccos [ 6371 / 7831 ] = 12756 * arccos [ 0.8135614864 ] = 12756 * 0.620545318575 = 7915.7 Km (4918.59 miles) What is the official distance? With a good station, the non-spherical earth working for you at your QTH and hoping for some sub-horizon love, who knows? -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: maximum AO-7 distance
On 10/01/2012 02:47 AM, Bob- W7LRD wrote: to my AO-7 afictionados...what is the maximum distance one can work edge to edge, and how did you figure that out? 73 Bob W7LRD Did you spot the error in my math, deliberately made to test you? :) No? Well Steve did. Hard to believe I actually used a calculator and STILL got that multiplication wrong. Thanks, Steve! The correct calculations are: MCD = 2 * 6371 * arccos [ 6371 / (6371 + 1460) ] = 12742 * arccos [ 6371 / 7831 ] = 12742 * arccos [ 0.8135614864 ] = 12742 * 0.620545318575 = 7,906.98 Km (4913.16 miles) -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
On 09/26/2012 10:06 AM, Trevor . wrote: Ion motor, see http://www.uk.amsat.org//p=5153 This 404'd. -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
On 09/26/2012 01:38 AM, Tony Langdon wrote: And of someone wanted to try out a new propulsion system on a live satellite, I'm sure AMSAT would be more than happy to help with the comms side of things. One can understand the reluctance to allow an explosive kick-motor on a launch vehicle. But is that the only way? What about a trebuchet? Springs? Rubber bands? Cylinders of compressed gas? Gas produced when needed by mixing two stable chemicals together? A motor that spins up an arm to 'throw' the payload? A magnetic railgun that fires a slug down out of orbit, resulting in recoil pushing the satellite up? Or the payload up, while deorbiting the railgun? Surely someone smarter than I can come up with a scheme that might actually work? And someone with a smoother tongue than I can persuade a university that this is valuable research to be pursued by their space science department? -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat
On 09/24/2012 10:56 AM, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote: Their original 3u design included a transponder. Hopefully they will overlook the boorish behavior and consider it for follow on projects. Or maybe we will consider denying them the use of ham frequencies? -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat
On 09/24/2012 12:39 PM, John Spasojevich wrote: Or maybe they will be reallocated to them. The chances of which increases, with every satellite launched that uses the amateur bands but carries no amateur payload. They use them more than we do. Whose fault is that? Maybe hams in your world own frequencies but in tge USA their use is a privilege not a right. In my world, hams have a RIGHT to properly use the frequencies that are ALLOCATED for their use. And a RIGHT to complain when they are misused. -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat
On 09/24/2012 01:32 PM, John Spasojevich wrote: If I could launch a cube sat for my experimental interests it would use ham bands and may only send back tlm. So am I prohibited from that? I, for one, would oppose the launch of, and object to your Cube Sat's use of amateur frequencies, if it used those frequencies for non-ham purposes. Perhaps you should read ITU Radio Regulations – Article 1, specifically parts 55 thru 57: 1.55 Space research service A radiocommunication service in which spacecraft or other objects in space are used for scientific or technological research purposes. 1.56 Amateur service A radiocommunication service for the purpose of self-training, intercommunication and technical investigations carried out by amateurs, that is, by duly authorized persons interested in radio technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest. 1.57 Amateur-satellite service A radiocommunication service using space stations on earth satellites for the same purposes as those of the amateur service. We need to be VERY careful to maintain a DISTINCTION between 1.55 and 1.57. Otherwise, all those who currently operate under 1.55 can simply start freely using our frequencies and claim to be operating under 1.57 without let or hindrance. To say that whatever you do, if you simply claim it is self-training or technical investigation you get free use of the ham bands is to open a particularly nasty can of worms. -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat
On 09/24/2012 02:56 PM, John Spasojevich wrote: I fail to see where your references prohibit such activity as long as hams are involved. Would a school ham radio club be prohibited ? Of course. IF what they were doing was not ham-related. Just because you have a ham license doesn't mean you can get on the air and use the frequencies for whatever you like. Would it be OK for NASA to use ham frequencies for their Mars Rover project, just because someone at NASA went out and got themself a ham ticket? After all, the Mars Rover programme is undoubtedly educational, and also a technical investigation. I think the main issue is that these birds don't satisfy YOUR personal interest. Just as ragchewing and dx-ing don't satisfy the schools exerimental goals. And neither should the schools assume that the amateur radio community automatically stands ready to satisfy THEIR needs, no matter what those needs are. So maybe helping them build a transponder would satisfy both. Yes, I think it would, as a reasonable compromise. In fact, maybe we should PROVIDE them with a working comms board that gives them the data pathways they need to fulfill their experimental needs AND at the same time provides US with something that provides OUR needs. It seems the entire focus these days is upon leveraging educational opportunities. The theory goes, as I understand it: Since we can't afford to pay for a launch of our own, we COOPERATE with educational institutions (who do seem able to get launches) to provide useable frequencies -- and potentially a global network of groundstations -- IN EXCHANGE for some sort of communications functionality that can be used BY US. Except it isn't happening. One satellite after another, they get what we have to offer (bandwidth), and they offer us... NOTHING in return. But then its not HEO so maybe just let the freqs die until funding is there for the appropriate use. By then thiae freqs will have long since been reallocated I used to enjoy working HEO, but I am not against LEO satellites, and have worked quite a few myself. But low orbit or highly elliptical, the more people that end up using our frequencies for non-amateur purposes, the greater the case that is being made for the reallocation of those frequencies. Its beating a dead horse. That want HEO dx-ing and ragchewing are free to build one. You don't need AMSAT anywhere do do that. I thought that's exactly what AMSAT was created for. The construction, launch, care and feeding of satellites for use by the community of amateur radio operators. Guess not, eh? Channel your energy into such a constructive project. I seriously doubt the complaining will get anything done. Neither, apparently, will AMSAT. -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat
On 09/24/2012 04:22 PM, John Spasojevich wrote: Well Gus, I'm guessing you read Barry's comments regarding launch cost. I did, and the number is exactly what I previously thought it was. So write the check and we'll be ready. Believe you me, if I had the cash, I would do exactly that. By the time $10M is raised, the cost will have tripled. Well, that depends upon how fast it is raised. How much have we raised so far? In the nearly twelve years since the last HEO launch? We are talking about hams, not sure how their wallets are where you are but here in the states, if something is listed at 50 cents they'll try and screw you down to 5. Same here. But we will still pay 10 grand for a rig if we really want to. Isn't it the same where you live? It's the bread and water principle. You eat bread and water, and save up for what you want. Enough bread and water and you can afford anything! :-) So good luck raising that kind of cash in the a reasonable amount of time. Until a school or someone else needs a HEO bird, the path is pretty clear for now. One way to make sure that you never raise the funds is to keep saying We can't afford it! and never save up. I seem to have given the impression that I am against LEO birds. I am not. As it happens, I believe that HEO birds are better. In that they generally offer more facilities for hams generally, and my selfish, ragchewing, DX-chasing butt in particular. Where I live, LEO satellites mostly give me an opportunity to make contact with fish, swimming in the mid Atlantic. So yes, I have a preference for HEO satellites. But I'm not against LEO birds per se. I AM against any satellite, HEO or LEO, that uses our frequencies as a free alternative to the Space Research Band and GIVE NOTHING BACK IN RETURN. Neither a functioning transponder that hams can use, nor a financial donation towards the launch of a bird of our own. Not even, in most cases, research of particular interest to the broader ham community. As for paying for an HEO launch, I can't afford to cough up that much. I can't even afford to cough up 1% of the required sum towards a launch fund. Even 0.1% would be a financial strain, but it might be doable. As it turns out there IS no launch fund for any HEO satellite for me to contribute to. -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat
On 09/24/2012 04:07 PM, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote: Yes, I think it would, as a reasonable compromise. In fact, maybe we should PROVIDE them with a working comms board that gives them the data pathways they need to fulfill their experimental needs AND at the same time provides US with something that provides OUR needs. It seems the entire focus these days is upon leveraging educational opportunities. The theory goes, as I understand it: Since we can't afford to pay for a launch of our own, we COOPERATE with educational institutions (who do seem able to get launches) to provide useable frequencies -- and potentially a global network of groundstations -- IN EXCHANGE for some sort of communications functionality that can be used BY US. We could even call it AMSAT Fox! And take donations on the front page of the website via PayPal! And use the same avionics on projects with other entities, and apply for free educational launches! Excellent idea! When do we start? Because it seems there are a LOT of birds up there that DON'T actually give anything back. What ratio of satellites that DON'T to satellites that DO must we reach, before someone points out that it is in fact, no longer our band? More seriously: I see the FOX PayPal applet saying a little under $7.5k at the present. How long has it taken to raise that amount? How much do we actually need? Or to get to the crux of the matter, at the current rate, when will we hit the required target, in comparison to when we need to pay for the launch? -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
is the justification for launches. NASA and others (such as the National Science Foundation) will support launch opportunities if the proposal meets THEIR strategic goals. Consequently, the most effective way to hitch a ride is to put something in an amateur radio space frame that meets their expectations, such as a scientific/educational payload and/or provide educational outreach.For example: 1. ARISSat-1/Kedr deployed by RSC/Energia from the ISS in August 2011 with a student scientific payload developed by Kursk State University. AMSAT developed ground based software to capture telemetry from both the satellite and the payload, with amateurs forwarding captured data to a central server. ARISSat-1/Kedr was considered to be a prototype for deploying student payloads. Education outreach was also part of our efforts with ARISSat-1, where, for example, telemetry data is available for student analysis. Whether there are future opportunities for more ARISSat deployments remains to be seen. 2. AMSAT-UK developed FunCube (funcube.org.uk) under the model where educational outreach is the justification (to be launched in 2013). The satellite has received financial support from the Radio Communications Foundation and is being developed in collaboration with ISIS-Innovative Solutions in Space BV (a Dutch small satellite company that is a spin-off from Delft University of Technology). AMSAT-UK is developing ground-based software with an easy-to-use receiver (FunCube Dongle developed by Howard Long, G6LVB) to encourage use of the satellite in the classroom. 3. FOX-1 will have a student scientific payload (MEMS Gyro originally developed by Penn State-Erie students) as justification for NASA to pay for our launch under the ELaNA grant. Ground-based software for capture of satellite telemetry and payload data is also being developed using a central server for data to be forwarded. AMSAT is also focused on creating education outreach materials focused on Fox-1 that will be appropriate for future missions as well. 4. The appointment of Mark Hammond, N8MH as AMSAT's VP-Educational Relations and the subsequent work that he is doing to develop relationships with outside organizations (including ARRL and NASA Education), develop an educational outreach capability in support of AMSAT's scientific and education mission, and work to foster support of STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics) as part of more traditional engineering work on space craft is in recognition of the fact that we are dependent upon the support of other organizations to be able to afford to fly. Education outreach is the new cost (one that AMSAT can hopefully afford) that we must bear to keep amateur radio in space. Clearly, it is launch costs that is driving much of what AMSAT can afford to accomplish. In addition, we must recognize that those that pay for the launch will only do so if the satellite provides a benefit that meets their goals/expectations.Clearly, future opportunities for placing amateur radio transponders in HEO will be dependent upon finding partners who have a need to place THEIR payload(s) in those orbits AND have the major funding to support the launch. In essence, that is what AMSAT-DL attempted to do by persuading the German government to fund P3-E as part of a larger mission to Mars. Unfortunately, their attempts did not pan out. BTW, we'd be happy to accept your $44.00 to renew your AMSAT membership; you can renew online at www.amsat.org... ;-) Regards, Barry Baines, WD4ASW President-AMSAT ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb Barry, I truly welcome the launch of 1.) ARISSat-1, 2.) FunCube and also 3.) FOX-1. Can you give me an idea when 4.) Mark Hammond, N8MH will be launched, and what amateur capability he will host while in orbit? :-) Jokes aside, I am happy to see ham satellites carry educational packages. But I want to see amateur packages as well (as per 1, 2 and 3 above). Satellites that carry ONLY educational packages and NO ham packages are of no particular interest to me, since I am a ham and not a student. What concerns me is this: As more satellites carry education-only packages, the harder it becomes to 'sell' the idea that an amateur package should be included. How will you answer when someone says The last ten satellites carried no amateur package. Why should we? -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
On 09/24/2012 05:18 PM, Trevor . wrote: If we look at the Kickstarter site we can see satellite projects that between them have raised almost $300,000 yet the online Fundraising by the projects took just 30 days. Pity we can't obtain funding by the same means. It isn't as if we wouldn't be able to include most of the functionality provided by these satellites as part of a secondary payload. -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat
On 09/24/2012 08:07 PM, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote: As it turns out there IS no launch fund for any HEO satellite for me to contribute to. Incorrect. http://www.amsat-dl.org/index.php/spendendonations-topmenu-125 I've given to AMSAT-NA, -DL, and -UK, and am members of -NA and -UK. I'd be a member of -DL, but my wife gets tired of me asking what this and that means in Deutsch. 73, Drew KO4MA I will admit, I was speaking about AMSAT-NA specifically, but failed to say so. I have also hesitated to join AMSAT-DL simply because I can't understand the language. I've previously been a member of AMSAT-NA and AMSAT-UK. I am not averse to rejoining AMSAT-NA (because NA is closer to me than UK) but frankly, I am not convinced that the policies being followed will result in more/better/any satellites that I can actually use. As has been pointed out here very recently, the new AMSAT-NA mission statement does not even mention the word communications. -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Satellites
On 09/22/2012 06:55 PM, K4FEG wrote: WORK 'EM TIL THEY FALL OUT OF THE SKY! Absolutely! When I was active on satellite, we had multiple, digital, store 'n' forward PacSats, each with several simultaneous uplink frequencies. We had single-channel FM birds operating at LEO so people could work them with HTs. We had LEO and HEO birds with linear transponders with pass-bands 100k wide or more. You could QSO with Russian Robots. You could work Mode-A, -B, -J, -L and -S. Even, as I did a few times, B/S (no BS!). Some of these birds would come up over the hill and hang there in the sky for 4, 6, maybe even 8 hours at a time. There were birds with communications ranges of more than 15,000 Km. Over and above the communications capabilities, most satellites were also experimental platforms of some sort or another. Testing memory error correction software. Testing tantalum and brass shielding for delicate circuitry. Running beacons at extremely high frequencies. All of this TWENTY years ago. Nowadays... what? We have a handful of single-channel FM birds, and a handful of linear transponders, all at LEO. The youngest of these is seven years old. The remainder are all in double-digits, with La Grande Dame an incredible THIRTY EIGHT years old! Ok, so forgive me if I suffer from OFS (Old Fart Syndrome) which occasionally causes a droplet to fall from my eye. But it is embarrassing to consider how much PROGRESS we've made in the last twenty years. The amateur satellite community were the first to try lots of new launch technology, and to bear the risk of those tests. Those technologies now earn millions for the launch providers every year, but we don't earn a cent and we certainly don't rate even the occasional free ride. We have no friends in those launch providers. We have no friends in NASA, apparently. We have no friends in government. We have nothing much, really. Except we have a spectrum allocation. One that every Tom, Dick and Harry seems to want to use. Yet we can't leverage this into anything of any particular value to us? Year after year, launch after launch, we hear about educational Yawn-Sats with amateur payloads that are really the satellite operators running telemetry and telecommand on OUR frequencies and giving nothing back in return. How that continues to happen, I can't even begin to guess. If it were up to a dummy like me there would be NO MORE LAUNCHES using amateur frequencies, unless they carried a GENUINE amateur payload as part of the flight hardware. (Or at least made a fat donation to a launch-fund, but that's probably illegal.) Thank goodness there are smarter people out there who wouldn't make the sort of mistake I would! Because allowing them to use our frequencies entirely for their own purposes, year after year, is hailed as the best and only way forward. So yes, my friend. Work 'em while they're there! Because it sure don't look like we are going to get any more. And even if we do, don't expect to get anything even REMOTELY as advanced as we used to have, two decades ago. Nowadays, ker-chunking a flying repeater is the absolute height of satellite sophistication! Sorry, gotta go. Droplets are leaking from my eyes again. -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: 22% votes
On 09/19/2012 06:09 PM, John Spasojevich wrote: If you are going to push education, it's not real easy to sell someone like NASA who has launchers available, that their interest in education is served by launching an AO-40 replacement when it'll be full of real hams and little opportunity for students. The road to reduced cost launches lies with the education card and that is the path AMSAT-NA is on and until one of the real hams wants to step up and head a drive to raise several million dollars, I think you'll all be dead a buried before another AO-40 flies. I fear you are correct. About the likelihood of another HEO launch. But I disagree about the rest. The education card may gain us cheaper launches, but why are we bothering? A recent post here mentioned a five-satellite CubeSat launch, concluding that Four of the CubeSats carry Amateur Radio payloads... Excuse me? F-1 transmits on 145.980 MHz and 437.485 MHz which are both ham frequencies. But hams can't use this bird, because unless you want to look at earth images (and live in the vicinity of the ground-station) or you are interested in the spacecraft's obscure telemetry, there is nothing for you here. And if you ARE interested, you don't have to be a ham radio operator to use the satellite. All you need is the appropriate receiver and no license. FITSAT-1 transmits on 437.250 MHz, 437.445 MHz and 5.840 GHz. Again, all ham frequencies, and again, useable by ANYONE, with or without a ham license, because all you need is a receiver (seeing as all you can do is listen to some more obscure telemetry). The Hi-Brite LEDs writing CW in the sky is really neet... but you won't see it unless you live near the ground-station which I don't WE-WISH (apparently) downlinks on ham frequency 437.505 MHz. It seems to have a thermal imager on it, and presumably lots more obscure telemetry. Once again, non-hams can use this as easily as hams because it only requires you have a receiver, no interaction being possible. TechEdSat will allow you (and any non-ham with a receiver) to listen to the obscure telemetry (hereinafter ObsTel) on ham frequency 437.465 MHz. Why you would want to, I can't imagine. So. Is this the sort of Amateur Radio Payload that we should hope for, if we continue to play the education card? Personally, I can't see why we should bother. Judging by these satellites, the phrase carries an amateur radio payload really means usurps amateur radio frequencies for non-amateur use for telemetry and telecommand on non-amateur satellites. Let me make it plain. I have no objection to (and indeed, I support) satellites being launched for educational reasons. I suppose that I really don't even object to the HamSat frequencies being used for non-ham purposes, seeing as WE aren't using those frequencies for anything much. But what are we gaining from playing this education card? The hope that occasionally, we can arrange the launch of some short lifespan, low range, fast pass, single channel FM bird that I get to shout callsign and gridsquare at for 6-8 minutes at a time, on a good day? You know, I don't have 10M to spare, to pay for a HEO launch. If I did, I would. I might scrape together 10K to donate. But honestly now, why should I? Apparently there will never be another AO-13 for me (and real hams) to enjoy, because such a bird will offer little opportunity for students. But of course, I am nobody special, and not even an AMSAT member (I'll tell you why, if you want me to) so you can safely ignore my post. -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Satellite location prediction weeks away and JOTA
On 09/20/2012 12:42 AM, James Luhn wrote: I will be working with a Boy Scout troop on October 20 participating with JOTA (Jamboree On The Air). Is there an easy way to predict when the various satellites and ISS will be passing overhead on October 20? It would be nice to know the times and locations for October 20 weeks ahead. Tracking software should be able to give you an 'ephemeris' table for each pass for the day. For example, the software I use lists FOUR passes on 20th October, for ISS. The best of these is 11:59:20 to 12:09:55 (nearly 13 minutes!). If I drill down on that pass, it lists times, AZ/EL angles, range, doppler correction, etc, from AOS (314°/0°) thru TCA (233°/40°) to LOS (157°/0°) in increments of 30-40 seconds. I would expect any halfway decent tracking software should be able to give the same sort of info. So, tell us what software you want to use, ande maybe someone who uses that particular software can tell you how to get the ephemeris info for the particular date, QTH and satellite(s) you want. But consider that weeks ahead means that you are using elements that are weeks old! (Or, they will be, weeks from now when you need to use the data.) So any ephemeris data generated weeks ahead should be regenerated periodically as new elements become available, so your ephemeris becomes more accurate the closer you get to the date of interest. -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: ITAR Spanish Lunar Robot Launch
On 09/11/2012 06:16 PM, Trevor . wrote: Moon Daily has just reported on the announcement in August of a Spanish Lunar robot launch by Beijing in 2014. I suspect it uses amateur frequencies but I don't know for certain, anyone have any information ? Why wouldn't it? It seems anyone building a small satellite for any purpose these days automatically uses the ham bands for their telemetry and telecommand channels. No actual amateur functionality need necessarily be included. -- 73, de Gus 8P6SM The Easternmost Isle ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
