Re: [android-developers] Re: App Inventor to Market

[Jonas Petersson]

Kostya,

On 07/17/2010 11:36 AM, Kostya Vasilyev wrote:

Still think it would work well for games / social apps, but for
productivity apps it can actually be the opposite of what's intended.

Consider two productivity apps, one of which helps get the same work
done in half the time. Which one of them deserves a ratings boost?


Theoretically, this is indeed bad if you only measure on-screen time, 
but if we also assume that it is started once per "task" you have to do 
(and assume the number of task for a "productivity" type of app is 
endless) you will most likely compensate by launching it more times.


However, in reality I suspect you would be unable to not notice everyone 
else ranting and raving about a productivity app that is twice as fast 
as what you are using and hence you would switch anyway... ;-)


Still, we're talking mobile phones here (for now anyway), and I suspect 
there is time limit to how much you use it in a day (basically battery). 
You are unlikely to spend very much time producing Word documentsm 
Powerpoints and Excel sheets, right?


As for my own type of productivity (coming back to the subject of the 
thread?), I'd just launch ConnectBot as I settle on the beach next to 
the pub in the morning, login to my work computer and keep coding all 
day, right?


Cheers / Jonas

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Re: [android-developers] Re: App Inventor to Market

[Kostya Vasilyev]

Jonas,

Still think it would work well for games / social apps, but for 
productivity apps it can actually be the opposite of what's intended.


Consider two productivity apps, one of which helps get the same work 
done in half the time. Which one of them deserves a ratings boost?


-- Kostya

17.07.2010 13:23, Jonas Petersson пишет:

On 07/17/2010 10:48 AM, Kostya Vasilyev wrote:

<>

Right, but how do you come up with alternative applications, given the
variety of apps?[...]


Yeah, it's hardly trivial, but hey, this is Google - if anyone can 
find relations in statistics, it's them...


Also, for Google (Ad-based income) time on screen should be a very 
important factor. Hmm, there's another interesting thought: with AdMob 
being part of Google it would be easy to include shown ads in the 
popularity equation too - hardly fair, though.



Like your idea for showing apps that haven't been used for a while. It's
like IRL - if you find something you haven't needed for a few years, you
can throw it away ;)


Good to agree ;-). Time to lobby for a new feature...

/ Jonas




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Re: [android-developers] Re: App Inventor to Market

[Jonas Petersson]

On 07/17/2010 10:48 AM, Kostya Vasilyev wrote:

<>

Right, but how do you come up with alternative applications, given the
variety of apps?[...]


Yeah, it's hardly trivial, but hey, this is Google - if anyone can find 
relations in statistics, it's them...


Also, for Google (Ad-based income) time on screen should be a very 
important factor. Hmm, there's another interesting thought: with AdMob 
being part of Google it would be easy to include shown ads in the 
popularity equation too - hardly fair, though.



Like your idea for showing apps that haven't been used for a while. It's
like IRL - if you find something you haven't needed for a few years, you
can throw it away ;)


Good to agree ;-). Time to lobby for a new feature...

/ Jonas

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Re: [android-developers] Re: App Inventor to Market

[Kostya Vasilyev]

God Dag Jonas,

<>

Right, but how do you come up with alternative applications, given the 
variety of apps? There are categories defined for Android Market apps, 
but they are quite broad. It would be possible to define more 
categories, but I sincerely hope there will be apps that don't fit any 
existing category.


Even apps that seem to fit in the same category (say, "social") can vary 
quite a bit in their usage patterns.


Just playing Devil's advocate here.

Like your idea for showing apps that haven't been used for a white. It's 
like IRL - if you find something you haven't needed for a few years, you 
can throw it away ;)


-- Kostya

17.07.2010 11:46, Jonas Petersson пишет:

Privet Kostya,

On 07/17/2010 08:09 AM, Kostya Vasilyev wrote:

Time spent and number of launches are poor metrics for app quality.
Maybe it makes some sense for games.


Well, "quality" is not at all what I was after, "popularity" more so. 
There certainly are apps that automatically start a service at boot 
time and perform their splendid task that will not show up at all for 
the measurement I suggested.



But consider a car navigation app, or an Office document viewer - their
use time/count is dependent on factors that have nothing to do with how
much users like them.


When compared to alternative applications for the same task, those 
indicators should still be quite relevant. Launching nav A more often 
or using it for longer than than nav app B clearly indicates that 
which one I prefer even though I have both installed.


Part of the reason I brought it up is that I think it would be a good 
thing for the user to know about - a bit like the Battery stats, this 
would indicate whether an app is mostly just wasting storage space 
since I have not actually made any use of it for XXX days. The system 
could quite easily keep stats on this, but writing an app for it isn't 
that easy.


Best / Jonas




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Re: [android-developers] Re: App Inventor to Market

[Jonas Petersson]

Privet Kostya,

On 07/17/2010 08:09 AM, Kostya Vasilyev wrote:

Time spent and number of launches are poor metrics for app quality.
Maybe it makes some sense for games.


Well, "quality" is not at all what I was after, "popularity" more so. 
There certainly are apps that automatically start a service at boot time 
and perform their splendid task that will not show up at all for the 
measurement I suggested.



But consider a car navigation app, or an Office document viewer - their
use time/count is dependent on factors that have nothing to do with how
much users like them.


When compared to alternative applications for the same task, those 
indicators should still be quite relevant. Launching nav A more often or 
using it for longer than than nav app B clearly indicates that which one 
I prefer even though I have both installed.


Part of the reason I brought it up is that I think it would be a good 
thing for the user to know about - a bit like the Battery stats, this 
would indicate whether an app is mostly just wasting storage space since 
I have not actually made any use of it for XXX days. The system could 
quite easily keep stats on this, but writing an app for it isn't that easy.


Best / Jonas

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Re: [android-developers] Re: App Inventor to Market

[Kostya Vasilyev]

Johnas,

Time spent and number of launches are poor metrics for app quality. Maybe it
makes some sense for games.

But consider a car navigation app, or an Office document viewer - their use
time/count is dependent on factors that have nothing to do with how much
users like them.

I have a data backup program on my phone that I liked well enough to pay
for. Yet it runs in automatic mode just once a day and only for a few
seconds.

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17.07.2010 3:41 пользователь "Jonas Petersson" 
написал:

On 07/16/2010 05:35 PM, String wrote:
>
> On 16 July, 16:14, "Maps.Huge.Info (Maps API Guru)">  From my analysis, the key metric in market position is acceleration,
>> not total downloads, c...
Since this is all speculation, perhaps there is an even simpler method: It
is obvious that the phone reports back what is still installed now and then
(presumably when it looks for updates). To also report back how many times
that application has been (manually) launched and/or number of seconds on
screen since last report wouldn't be particularly hard to implement (though
it probably would trigger a bit of paranoia). I'm not saying it DOES, but
such stats might be a reasonably fair indication of actual popularity.

   Best / Jonas



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Re: [android-developers] Re: App Inventor to Market

[Jonas Petersson]

On 07/16/2010 05:35 PM, String wrote:

On 16 July, 16:14, "Maps.Huge.Info (Maps API Guru)"
wrote:

(Pardon the continued hijack)

Likewise. ;^)

+1


 From my analysis, the key metric in market position is acceleration,
not total downloads, comments or anything else.


I respectfully disagree... if this were the case there wouldn't be
nearly so much stability at the top of every category. While I don't
deny that "acceleration" may be part of the equation, I doubt it's
key. My guess is that some metric like "downloads per week" is more
likely; this would account for both hot new arrivals and old-timers
with continuing popularity.


Since this is all speculation, perhaps there is an even simpler method: 
It is obvious that the phone reports back what is still installed now 
and then (presumably when it looks for updates). To also report back how 
many times that application has been (manually) launched and/or number 
of seconds on screen since last report wouldn't be particularly hard to 
implement (though it probably would trigger a bit of paranoia). I'm not 
saying it DOES, but such stats might be a reasonably fair indication of 
actual popularity.


Best / Jonas

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Re: [android-developers] Re: App Inventor to Market

[Mark Carter]

Here's an idea for ordering:
http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=6995

On 16 July 2010 17:35, String  wrote:

> On 16 July, 16:14, "Maps.Huge.Info (Maps API Guru)" 
> wrote:
>
> > (Pardon the continued hijack)
>
> Likewise. ;^)
>
> > From my analysis, the key metric in market position is acceleration,
> > not total downloads, comments or anything else.
>
> I respectfully disagree... if this were the case there wouldn't be
> nearly so much stability at the top of every category. While I don't
> deny that "acceleration" may be part of the equation, I doubt it's
> key. My guess is that some metric like "downloads per week" is more
> likely; this would account for both hot new arrivals and old-timers
> with continuing popularity.
>
> Unfortunately, this would mean that appealing-sounding crapps could
> achieve relatively high visibility, if uninstalls aren't removed from
> the total used for ranking. It'd be nice if star-ratings were more
> highly factored in - it'd make it easier to find hidden gems - but
> then, some idiot would game that system too.
>
> String
>
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Re: [android-developers] Re: App Inventor to Market

[Mark Carter]

@John very interesting

I have a few apps with several tens of thousands of downloads but now
unpublished. But later I will republish them. That would give a lot of
acceleration (depending how they calculate it)... Will report back when I
republish!

On 16 July 2010 17:14, Maps.Huge.Info (Maps API Guru) wrote:

> (Pardon the continued hijack)
>
> From my analysis, the key metric in market position is acceleration,
> not total downloads, comments or anything else.
>
> A good example is the new Fox app. It zoomed into the #2 slot in
> overall popularity after two days on the market. Why? Acceleration. It
> went from zero downloads/zero comments to 50,000 in one day (or
> something like that). The acceleration from 0 to 50,000 put it in the
> first spot. I've seen this happen many times. I was tracking apps and
> their position for a while on a spreadsheet (http://maps.huge.info/
> blog/2009/12/android_market_app_movement.html) http://bit.ly/bpLaQ3 -
> note how an app can come out of nowhere, swing to the top rating then
> gradually slip back up? That's because the rate of download
> acceleration leveled off and the app floated to its rightful place.
>
> Here's my take on market position factors:
> Acceleration
> Total downloads
> active install percentage
> rating count
> rating
>
> User comments don't have an effect, good or bad.
>
> -John Coryat
>
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Re: [android-developers] Re: App Inventor to Market

[Mark Carter]

Not in my case. All these visible metrics are in my app's favour (compared
to apps immediately above):

Rating
Downloads
Number of ratings
Number of comments
Number of comments recently

The only things I can think of is the feedback the user gives when
uninstalling or the Active Installs %...

On 16 July 2010 16:09, Shane Isbell  wrote:

> There could be all sorts of reasons for this. For example, google may be
> increasing the visibility on the app based on user comment activity and
> detail views, so even a lot of 'This sucks' comments helps it out. Do these
> crapps with better visibility have a lot more comments?
>
> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 1:33 AM, Kaj Bjurman wrote:
>
>> Probably not, I updated my application less than 1 week ago, and had
>> another release a month prior to that.
>>
>>
>> On 16 Juli, 10:16, Mark Carter  wrote:
>> > (Also, apologies for continuing the tangential discussion)
>> >
>> > Same thing happening to one of my apps. Even though the download count
>> > is increasing healthily (and a 4.5 rating), I think its because I
>> > haven't updated it for a couple of months.
>> >
>> > Could that be it?
>> >
>> > On Jul 16, 8:41 am, Kaj Bjurman  wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > (Sorry for the hijacking)
>> >
>> > > I don't agree at all. I don't have a clue on how Google apply their
>> > > sorting, but the result is neither sorted by rating nor downloads. I
>> > > got an app with 4.39 in rating, and about 77000 downloads.
>> >
>> > > I now did a market search of parts of my application name, and my
>> > > application came rather low in that search, and there were many apps
>> > > with a rating of 2-4 and much fewer downloads that had a higher
>> > > ranking, and didn't even contain my search criteria in the name.
>> >
>> > > I think Market search sucks big time.
>> >
>> > > On 15 Juli, 23:53, Greg Donald  wrote:
>> >
>> > > > On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 3:39 PM, TreKing 
>> wrote:
>> > > > > Your definition of "filter" confuses me.
>> >
>> > > > I apologize for the confusion.  I meant it in the sense of "sorting"
>> > > > more than filtering.  Low quality Android apps appear near the
>> bottom
>> > > > of the lists while higher quality apps appear closer to the top.
>>  The
>> > > > filtering occurs when the user gets tired of scrolling down.
>> >
>> > > > --
>> > > > Greg Donald
>> > > > destiney.com | gregdonald.com
>>
>> --
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>
>
>
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Re: [android-developers] Re: App Inventor to Market

[Shane Isbell]

There could be all sorts of reasons for this. For example, google may be
increasing the visibility on the app based on user comment activity and
detail views, so even a lot of 'This sucks' comments helps it out. Do these
crapps with better visibility have a lot more comments?

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 1:33 AM, Kaj Bjurman  wrote:

> Probably not, I updated my application less than 1 week ago, and had
> another release a month prior to that.
>
>
> On 16 Juli, 10:16, Mark Carter  wrote:
> > (Also, apologies for continuing the tangential discussion)
> >
> > Same thing happening to one of my apps. Even though the download count
> > is increasing healthily (and a 4.5 rating), I think its because I
> > haven't updated it for a couple of months.
> >
> > Could that be it?
> >
> > On Jul 16, 8:41 am, Kaj Bjurman  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > (Sorry for the hijacking)
> >
> > > I don't agree at all. I don't have a clue on how Google apply their
> > > sorting, but the result is neither sorted by rating nor downloads. I
> > > got an app with 4.39 in rating, and about 77000 downloads.
> >
> > > I now did a market search of parts of my application name, and my
> > > application came rather low in that search, and there were many apps
> > > with a rating of 2-4 and much fewer downloads that had a higher
> > > ranking, and didn't even contain my search criteria in the name.
> >
> > > I think Market search sucks big time.
> >
> > > On 15 Juli, 23:53, Greg Donald  wrote:
> >
> > > > On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 3:39 PM, TreKing 
> wrote:
> > > > > Your definition of "filter" confuses me.
> >
> > > > I apologize for the confusion.  I meant it in the sense of "sorting"
> > > > more than filtering.  Low quality Android apps appear near the bottom
> > > > of the lists while higher quality apps appear closer to the top.  The
> > > > filtering occurs when the user gets tired of scrolling down.
> >
> > > > --
> > > > Greg Donald
> > > > destiney.com | gregdonald.com
>
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Re: [android-developers] Re: App Inventor to Market

[Wayne Wenthin]

I think another thing that is missing is the ability to see the ratings of
users that rated it but didn't comment.   But then we have hijacked this
thread so I'm gonna be quiet now.

On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Jonas Petersson wrote:

> On 07/16/2010 01:31 AM, Maps.Huge.Info (Maps API Guru) wrote:
>
>> One thing that mitigates the occasional unhappy and misinformed user
>> is time. Once your app has been on the market for a while, those
>> comments won't affect your overall rating nor your position in the
>> popularity rankings. All you have to be is patient and keep working to
>> improve your app. Our app "Radar Now!" has nearly 5,000 ratings after
>> about a year. We still get the occasional "Sux uninstall" one star
>> rating but those are overwhelmed by the "Love it" and "Fantastic app"
>> five stars.
>>
>
> This is true as such, but it would be very interesting if you have
> statistics that would give a ratio to indicate a percentage how many of your
> happy daily users that have submitted a 3+ rating or a positive comment as
> opposed to those who run it once and leave a "sux"+single star. Then compare
> that to the ratio of positive/negative emails sent to you.
>
> In theory the ratios should be similar, but I certainly don't see that.
>
>Best / Jonas
>
>
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Re: [android-developers] Re: App Inventor to Market

[Jonas Petersson]

On 07/16/2010 01:31 AM, Maps.Huge.Info (Maps API Guru) wrote:

One thing that mitigates the occasional unhappy and misinformed user
is time. Once your app has been on the market for a while, those
comments won't affect your overall rating nor your position in the
popularity rankings. All you have to be is patient and keep working to
improve your app. Our app "Radar Now!" has nearly 5,000 ratings after
about a year. We still get the occasional "Sux uninstall" one star
rating but those are overwhelmed by the "Love it" and "Fantastic app"
five stars.


This is true as such, but it would be very interesting if you have 
statistics that would give a ratio to indicate a percentage how many of 
your happy daily users that have submitted a 3+ rating or a positive 
comment as opposed to those who run it once and leave a "sux"+single 
star. Then compare that to the ratio of positive/negative emails sent to 
you.


In theory the ratios should be similar, but I certainly don't see that.

Best / Jonas

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Re: [android-developers] Re: App Inventor to Market

[Jonas Petersson]

On 07/16/2010 12:25 AM, Wayne Wenthin wrote:

This is not entirely correct.   I have an app rated at 3.5 + stars and
there are tons of crapware above me because I have less downloads.
(and probably because I'm not ripping off disney either but that was in
another thread)


I would tend to agree on this. Judging from usage statistics on my own 
applications I see that those that are satisfied will often use my email 
address to contact me with positive feedback but forget to use the 
Market for rating while those who are unsatisfied (typically because 
they've misunderstood something) quickly put a single star and a 
negative comment before they disappear - leaving me with no way to help 
them or let them know when I've implemented the feature they asked for.


This scews the rating IMHO - in particular initially when the average is 
easily affected by a single vote.


My few EURcents / Jonas

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Re: [android-developers] Re: App Inventor to Market

[Wayne Wenthin]

This is not entirely correct.   I have an app rated at 3.5 + stars and there
are tons of crapware above me because I have less downloads.   (and probably
because I'm not ripping off disney either but that was in another thread)

On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Greg Donald  wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 3:39 PM, TreKing  wrote:
> > Your definition of "filter" confuses me.
>
> I apologize for the confusion.  I meant it in the sense of "sorting"
> more than filtering.  Low quality Android apps appear near the bottom
> of the lists while higher quality apps appear closer to the top.  The
> filtering occurs when the user gets tired of scrolling down.
>
>
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> destiney.com | gregdonald.com
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Re: [android-developers] Re: App Inventor to Market

[Greg Donald]

On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 3:39 PM, TreKing  wrote:
> Your definition of "filter" confuses me.

I apologize for the confusion.  I meant it in the sense of "sorting"
more than filtering.  Low quality Android apps appear near the bottom
of the lists while higher quality apps appear closer to the top.  The
filtering occurs when the user gets tired of scrolling down.


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Re: [android-developers] Re: App Inventor to Market

[TreKing]

On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Greg Donald  wrote:

> There is already a filter in place.  Bad apps get low star ratings.


Your definition of "filter" confuses me.

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TreKing  - Chicago
transit tracking app for Android-powered devices

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Re: [android-developers] Re: App Inventor to Market

[Dan Sherman]

Unfortunately, thats more of a sort, and less of a filter...

Now, if we could only say "Only items 4 stars and above", thats a different
story..

On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 3:52 PM, Greg Donald  wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 2:31 PM, mah  wrote:
> > at least, if they can provide a
> > way to filter out the crapps better.
>
> There is already a filter in place.  Bad apps get low star ratings.
>
>
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Re: [android-developers] Re: App Inventor to Market

[Greg Donald]

On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 2:31 PM, mah  wrote:
> at least, if they can provide a
> way to filter out the crapps better.

There is already a filter in place.  Bad apps get low star ratings.


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