Re: [Apertium-stuff] Genitives in apertium-eng

[Tommi A Pirinen]

[Replies inline]
On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 13:58:15 +0200
Marc Riera Irigoyen
 wrote:

> Add the  tag without a blank between it and the previous lemma:
> 
> 
>   
> 
>   
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
>   
> 
>   
> 
> 
> This should do the trick.

Yep, works neatly now, thanks again. I had used lu stuff earlier I
probably had had difficulties with + or something that I thought it was
magical.


--
Doktor Tommi A Pirinen, Computational Linguist,
, Universität
Hamburg, Hamburger Zentrum für Sprachkorpora . CLARIN-D
Entwickler.  President of ACL SIGUR SIG for Uralic languages
.
I tend to follow inline-posting style in desktop e-mail messages.



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Re: [Apertium-stuff] Genitives in apertium-eng

[Francis Tyers]

El 2017-07-25 13:58, Marc Riera Irigoyen escribió:

Add the  tag without a blank between it and the previous lemma:


  

  
  






  

  

  




Alternatively:


   
 
 
 
   


 
   


F.

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Re: [Apertium-stuff] Genitives in apertium-eng

[Marc Riera Irigoyen]

Add the  tag without a blank between it and the previous lemma:


  

  
  






  

  

  


This should do the trick.

2017-07-25 12:46 GMT+02:00 Tommi A Pirinen <
tommi.antero.piri...@uni-hamburg.de>:

> [Replies inline]
> On Mon, 24 Jul 2017 23:15:15 +0200
> Marc Riera Irigoyen
>  wrote:
>
> > Sorry, I made a mistake in the reference bidix entry in the last
> > message that could break pairs already using genitives. The good
> > entry should be like this (what I originally said in a previous
> > message):
> >
> > 's
> >
> > I have tweaked the CG rules and now everything should work even
> > better. Thanks!
>
> Thanks for the update. I have changed fin-eng a bit and set up some
> tests using Apertium's canonical standard testing methods like[1]. The
> only issue I have is generating, I use:
>
> 
>   
> 
> 
>   
>   
> 
>   
> 
> 
>   
> 
>   
> 
> 
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
>   
>   
>
> But I seem to get:
>
> fin-eng   Jamesin kissa.
> - James' cat.
> + James's/' cat.
>
>
> fin-eng   Jackin kissa.
> - Jack's cat.
> + Jack's/' cat.
>
>
> fin-eng   pojan kissa.
> - boy's cat.
> + boy's/' cat.
>
> Other way it goes almost right, except for the lexical selection:
>
> eng-fin   James' cat.
> - Jamesin kissa.
> + James’ kolli.
>
>
> eng-fin   Jack's cat.
> - Jackin kissa.
> + Jackin kolli.
>
>
> eng-fin   boy's cat.
> - pojan kissa.
> + pojan kolli.
>
>
> [1]
> 
>
> --
> Doktor Tommi A Pirinen, Computational Linguist,
> , Universität
> Hamburg, Hamburger Zentrum für Sprachkorpora . CLARIN-D
> Entwickler.  President of ACL SIGUR SIG for Uralic languages
> .
> I tend to follow inline-posting style in desktop e-mail messages.
>
>
>
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff
>



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Re: [Apertium-stuff] Genitives in apertium-eng

[Tommi A Pirinen]

[Replies inline]
On Mon, 24 Jul 2017 23:15:15 +0200
Marc Riera Irigoyen
 wrote:

> Sorry, I made a mistake in the reference bidix entry in the last
> message that could break pairs already using genitives. The good
> entry should be like this (what I originally said in a previous
> message):
> 
> 's
> 
> I have tweaked the CG rules and now everything should work even
> better. Thanks!

Thanks for the update. I have changed fin-eng a bit and set up some
tests using Apertium's canonical standard testing methods like[1]. The
only issue I have is generating, I use:


  


  
  

  


  

  


  
  
  
  
  
  
  





  

  
  

But I seem to get:

fin-eng   Jamesin kissa.
- James' cat.
+ James's/' cat.


fin-eng   Jackin kissa.
- Jack's cat.
+ Jack's/' cat.


fin-eng   pojan kissa.
- boy's cat.
+ boy's/' cat.

Other way it goes almost right, except for the lexical selection:

eng-fin   James' cat.
- Jamesin kissa.
+ James’ kolli.


eng-fin   Jack's cat.
- Jackin kissa.
+ Jackin kolli.


eng-fin   boy's cat.
- pojan kissa.
+ pojan kolli.


[1]


--
Doktor Tommi A Pirinen, Computational Linguist,
, Universität
Hamburg, Hamburger Zentrum für Sprachkorpora . CLARIN-D
Entwickler.  President of ACL SIGUR SIG for Uralic languages
.
I tend to follow inline-posting style in desktop e-mail messages.



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Re: [Apertium-stuff] Genitives in apertium-eng

[Marc Riera Irigoyen]

Sorry, I made a mistake in the reference bidix entry in the last message
that could break pairs already using genitives. The good entry should be
like this (what I originally said in a previous message):

's

I have tweaked the CG rules and now everything should work even better.
Thanks!

2017-07-24 13:03 GMT+02:00 Marc Riera Irigoyen <
marc.riera.irigo...@gmail.com>:

> The changes are now live. I've finally not included the apostrophe form in
> the paradigms; instead, it's a form of the 's lemma that is removed via CG
> when the previous lemma is not a noun or proper noun ending in "s". I'm
> currently training the apertium-eng tagger, so I'll add some forbids
> related to genitives in the TSX files to rely less on CG.
>
> In order to add support for genitives in any pair using apertium-eng,
> simply add the following entry (change LR to RL if English is on the right
> side of the bidix):
>
> 
>
> To generate the genitive form of any noun or proper noun, add "+'s"
> after the noun. The correct form of the genitive will be generated
> automatically. Example:
>
> house+'s = house's
> house+'s = houses'
>
> Thank you!
>
> 2017-07-19 0:35 GMT+02:00 Marc Riera Irigoyen <
> marc.riera.irigo...@gmail.com>:
>
>> Fran, I agree with your suggestion, I'll do it this way.
>>
>> Flammie, the only change you need to do in the bidix is to add an entry
>> like this:
>>
>> 's
>>
>> This will allow your pair to get a  lemma after the word in genitive
>> that can be used in transfer rules when translating from English. The other
>> way round is simpler, just make the rules add an extra  tag to a lemma
>> to get its genitive form (e.g. house will show up as "house's").
>>
>> I will wait until the end of the week (in case someone else has any
>> suggestion) and notify you all when I commit the changes. Thanks!
>>
>> 2017-07-18 20:34 GMT+02:00 Flammie Pirinen :
>>
>>> 2017-07-18, Francis Tyers sanoi:
>>>
>>> > El 2017-07-18 14:44, Marc Riera Irigoyen escribió:
>>> > > Hello! I'm working on apertium-eng-cat and I've been having some
>>> > > issues with genitives. Currently, many noun paradigms in
>>> > > apertium-eng (mostly irregular nouns) have a  form with the
>>> > > genitive. Not all nouns have it, so apertium-eng also includes a
>>> > > specific lemma for the regular genitive ('s) to add the  tag
>>> > > in the analysis.
>>> > >
>>> > > However, when using apertium-eng for generation, it is impossible to
>>> > > know in advance whether or not a lemma has the genitive form, so
>>> > > generation for lemmas without the  form is broken.
>>> > >
>>> > > I'm considering adding a  form to all the affected paradigms to
>>> > > fix this issue. Any objections?
>>> >
>>> > Are there other pairs relying on apertium-eng ? Would this break
>>> > them ?
>>>
>>>
>>> I’ve genitives and apertium-eng set up for e.g. fin-eng, but I’m ok with
>>> whichever solution, if you can post a bidix formula for that once
>>> you’ve updated the eng.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Flammie, computer scientist bachelor + linguist master = computational
>>> linguist doctor, free software Finnish localiser,
>>> and more! 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> ___
>>> Apertium-stuff mailing list
>>> Apertium-stuff@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Marc Riera Irigoyen*
>> Freelance Translator EN/JA>CA/ES
>>
>> (+34) 652 492 008 <+34%20652%2049%2020%2008>
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Marc Riera Irigoyen*
> Freelance Translator EN/JA>CA/ES
>
> (+34) 652 492 008 <+34%20652%2049%2020%2008>
>



-- 

*Marc Riera Irigoyen*
Freelance Translator EN/JA>CA/ES

(+34) 652 492 008
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Re: [Apertium-stuff] Genitives in apertium-eng

[Marc Riera Irigoyen]

The changes are now live. I've finally not included the apostrophe form in
the paradigms; instead, it's a form of the 's lemma that is removed via CG
when the previous lemma is not a noun or proper noun ending in "s". I'm
currently training the apertium-eng tagger, so I'll add some forbids
related to genitives in the TSX files to rely less on CG.

In order to add support for genitives in any pair using apertium-eng,
simply add the following entry (change LR to RL if English is on the right
side of the bidix):



To generate the genitive form of any noun or proper noun, add "+'s"
after the noun. The correct form of the genitive will be generated
automatically. Example:

house+'s = house's
house+'s = houses'

Thank you!

2017-07-19 0:35 GMT+02:00 Marc Riera Irigoyen :

> Fran, I agree with your suggestion, I'll do it this way.
>
> Flammie, the only change you need to do in the bidix is to add an entry
> like this:
>
> 's
>
> This will allow your pair to get a  lemma after the word in genitive
> that can be used in transfer rules when translating from English. The other
> way round is simpler, just make the rules add an extra  tag to a lemma
> to get its genitive form (e.g. house will show up as "house's").
>
> I will wait until the end of the week (in case someone else has any
> suggestion) and notify you all when I commit the changes. Thanks!
>
> 2017-07-18 20:34 GMT+02:00 Flammie Pirinen :
>
>> 2017-07-18, Francis Tyers sanoi:
>>
>> > El 2017-07-18 14:44, Marc Riera Irigoyen escribió:
>> > > Hello! I'm working on apertium-eng-cat and I've been having some
>> > > issues with genitives. Currently, many noun paradigms in
>> > > apertium-eng (mostly irregular nouns) have a  form with the
>> > > genitive. Not all nouns have it, so apertium-eng also includes a
>> > > specific lemma for the regular genitive ('s) to add the  tag
>> > > in the analysis.
>> > >
>> > > However, when using apertium-eng for generation, it is impossible to
>> > > know in advance whether or not a lemma has the genitive form, so
>> > > generation for lemmas without the  form is broken.
>> > >
>> > > I'm considering adding a  form to all the affected paradigms to
>> > > fix this issue. Any objections?
>> >
>> > Are there other pairs relying on apertium-eng ? Would this break
>> > them ?
>>
>>
>> I’ve genitives and apertium-eng set up for e.g. fin-eng, but I’m ok with
>> whichever solution, if you can post a bidix formula for that once
>> you’ve updated the eng.
>>
>> --
>> Flammie, computer scientist bachelor + linguist master = computational
>> linguist doctor, free software Finnish localiser,
>> and more! 
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> --
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> ___
>> Apertium-stuff mailing list
>> Apertium-stuff@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Marc Riera Irigoyen*
> Freelance Translator EN/JA>CA/ES
>
> (+34) 652 492 008 <+34%20652%2049%2020%2008>
>



-- 

*Marc Riera Irigoyen*
Freelance Translator EN/JA>CA/ES

(+34) 652 492 008
--
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Re: [Apertium-stuff] Genitives in apertium-eng

[Marc Riera Irigoyen]

Fran, I agree with your suggestion, I'll do it this way.

Flammie, the only change you need to do in the bidix is to add an entry
like this:

's

This will allow your pair to get a  lemma after the word in genitive
that can be used in transfer rules when translating from English. The other
way round is simpler, just make the rules add an extra  tag to a lemma
to get its genitive form (e.g. house will show up as "house's").

I will wait until the end of the week (in case someone else has any
suggestion) and notify you all when I commit the changes. Thanks!

2017-07-18 20:34 GMT+02:00 Flammie Pirinen :

> 2017-07-18, Francis Tyers sanoi:
>
> > El 2017-07-18 14:44, Marc Riera Irigoyen escribió:
> > > Hello! I'm working on apertium-eng-cat and I've been having some
> > > issues with genitives. Currently, many noun paradigms in
> > > apertium-eng (mostly irregular nouns) have a  form with the
> > > genitive. Not all nouns have it, so apertium-eng also includes a
> > > specific lemma for the regular genitive ('s) to add the  tag
> > > in the analysis.
> > >
> > > However, when using apertium-eng for generation, it is impossible to
> > > know in advance whether or not a lemma has the genitive form, so
> > > generation for lemmas without the  form is broken.
> > >
> > > I'm considering adding a  form to all the affected paradigms to
> > > fix this issue. Any objections?
> >
> > Are there other pairs relying on apertium-eng ? Would this break
> > them ?
>
>
> I’ve genitives and apertium-eng set up for e.g. fin-eng, but I’m ok with
> whichever solution, if you can post a bidix formula for that once
> you’ve updated the eng.
>
> --
> Flammie, computer scientist bachelor + linguist master = computational
> linguist doctor, free software Finnish localiser,
> and more! 
>
>
>
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
> Apertium-stuff mailing list
> Apertium-stuff@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff
>



-- 

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(+34) 652 492 008
--
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Re: [Apertium-stuff] Genitives in apertium-eng

[Flammie Pirinen]

2017-07-18, Francis Tyers sanoi:

> El 2017-07-18 14:44, Marc Riera Irigoyen escribió:
> > Hello! I'm working on apertium-eng-cat and I've been having some
> > issues with genitives. Currently, many noun paradigms in
> > apertium-eng (mostly irregular nouns) have a  form with the
> > genitive. Not all nouns have it, so apertium-eng also includes a
> > specific lemma for the regular genitive ('s) to add the  tag
> > in the analysis.
> > 
> > However, when using apertium-eng for generation, it is impossible to
> > know in advance whether or not a lemma has the genitive form, so
> > generation for lemmas without the  form is broken.
> > 
> > I'm considering adding a  form to all the affected paradigms to
> > fix this issue. Any objections?  
> 
> Are there other pairs relying on apertium-eng ? Would this break
> them ?


I’ve genitives and apertium-eng set up for e.g. fin-eng, but I’m ok with
whichever solution, if you can post a bidix formula for that once
you’ve updated the eng.

-- 
Flammie, computer scientist bachelor + linguist master = computational
linguist doctor, free software Finnish localiser,
and more! 



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Re: [Apertium-stuff] Genitives in apertium-eng

[Francis Tyers]

El 2017-07-18 19:04, Marc Riera Irigoyen escribió:

I hadn't considered the other uses, but I've come up with a better
solution that takes them into consideration and shouldn't break pairs
relying on apertium-eng.

Basically, the genitive form would be added as generation-only for
paradigms with a regular ('s) genitive. The would allow apertium to
detect the 's as both a genitive and a verb during analysis, and at
the same time provide an easy way to generate the genitive when
needed. Example:


   
  's
 s 
 s'


Verb contractions are currently limited to pronoun+verb combinations,
so I'd have to add 's independently as both a form of is and has.
Nothing would be removed, only added, so other pairs should be
unaffected.


I really think it would be better to not use  like that, and 
instead use:




   's'sn="gen"/>

  s 
  s''sn="gen"/>

 


Note, if you did want to do analysis of those two, you'd need to also 
add:


  s''n="apos"/>


And disambiguate it in CG.

Fran

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Re: [Apertium-stuff] Genitives in apertium-eng

[Marc Riera Irigoyen]

I hadn't considered the other uses, but I've come up with a better solution
that takes them into consideration and shouldn't break pairs relying on
apertium-eng.

Basically, the genitive form would be added as generation-only for
paradigms with a regular ('s) genitive. The would allow apertium to detect
the 's as both a genitive and a verb during analysis, and at the same time
provide an easy way to generate the genitive when needed. Example:


   
  's
 s 
 s'


Verb contractions are currently limited to pronoun+verb combinations, so
I'd have to add 's independently as both a form of is and has. Nothing
would be removed, only added, so other pairs should be unaffected.

2017-07-18 17:10 GMT+02:00 Francis Tyers :

> El 2017-07-18 14:44, Marc Riera Irigoyen escribió:
>
>> Hello! I'm working on apertium-eng-cat and I've been having some
>> issues with genitives. Currently, many noun paradigms in apertium-eng
>> (mostly irregular nouns) have a  form with the genitive. Not all
>> nouns have it, so apertium-eng also includes a specific lemma for the
>> regular genitive ('s) to add the  tag in the analysis.
>>
>> However, when using apertium-eng for generation, it is impossible to
>> know in advance whether or not a lemma has the genitive form, so
>> generation for lemmas without the  form is broken.
>>
>> I'm considering adding a  form to all the affected paradigms to
>> fix this issue. Any objections?
>>
>
> Are there other pairs relying on apertium-eng ? Would this break them ?
>
> Otherwise, I don't see a problem, go ahead. Although I'd make it like
>
> house:house
> house:houses
> house+s:house's
> house+s:houses'
>
> Instead of:
>
> house:house
> house:houses
> house:house's
> house:houses'
>
> Note  that would will also probably need to include the other uses of 's
> too (is / has):
>
> e.g. "The cat's around the corner", "That cat's had his last fish supper".
>
> F.
>



-- 

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(+34) 652 492 008
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[Apertium-stuff] Genitives in apertium-eng

[Marc Riera Irigoyen]

Hello! I'm working on apertium-eng-cat and I've been having some issues
with genitives. Currently, many noun paradigms in apertium-eng (mostly
irregular nouns) have a  form with the genitive. Not all nouns have
it, so apertium-eng also includes a specific lemma for the regular genitive
('s) to add the  tag in the analysis.

However, when using apertium-eng for generation, it is impossible to know
in advance whether or not a lemma has the genitive form, so generation for
lemmas without the  form is broken.

I'm considering adding a  form to all the affected paradigms to fix
this issue. Any objections?


Marc Riera
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