Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples
As a nurseryman with a stake in East Africa, I find the discussion fascinating. Here GMO is being used to slightly modify a cosmetic flaw in an apple for marketing purposes; where I work with in Uganda, it is being used to give resistance to plantain bananas to a devistating disease that is wiping out their food supply, with people starving as a result. The Arctic Apple folks claim that their product is the most tested apple in history, and this is why APHIS had to approve it; their conclusion cannot be affected by public opinion or demand, but on science. What if it indeed proves in the long run to be safe? (I've seen zero research stating otherwise). I wish with you guys that the first GMO apple released would have been something that's actually useful to us, such as reducing the 12-20 sprays necessary to bring an apple to market, but as far as GMO actions go, this one is pretty benign; switching off a gene already in the apple and not imported from a moth or potato, for a minor alteraion. But maybe this was the place they had to start to address a very important question; is this indeed safe, and should it be used to protect the world's food supply? Kevin Hauser Kuffel Creek Apple Nursery Riverside, California Nakifuma, Uganda On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 15:09:33 +, Shoemaker, William H wshoe...@illinois.edu wrote: I like your comment David, and I agree. I don't want to carry water for them anyway. All of these companies pay big money for the best lawyers and lobbyists. They need to help defending their actions. I take the position when pressed by folks who are not familiar with genetic engineering that I'm comfortable with the technique, but that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with how its being employed. I'd like to see more caution and more effort to give the public real answers to their questions about these products and about the way these techniques are used. I think they companies which employ GMOs don't feel they need to be accountable for the products they are putting into the marketplace. Every direct-market growers knows that they face accountability, like it or not, and must reconcile with it in some way. And while these companies do to, like it or not, I don't think they are being fair to the consumer in the marketplace by failing to make more effort to address their questi ons about their products. So I tell those folks who ask that I can't defend the products, not because I think they are unsafe, but because I don't agree with the way they are being introduced into the market. Bill William H. Shoemaker Retired fruit and vegetable horticulturist University of Illinois wshoe...@illinois.edu From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] on behalf of David Doud [david_d...@me.com] Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 8:53 AM To: Apple-Crop Subject: [apple-crop] arctic apples Well, I have been to two social events since the GMO 'Arctic apples' have been in the news - and that is what people want to talk to me about - and pretty much only that... How are you all handling this? My personal opinions aside, I don't want to 'carry water' for these guys - they aren't going to let me grow them even if I wanted to and I don't feel inclined to spend my time and credibility providing them cover and fighting their marketing struggle for them - This is going to be a frequently reoccurring issue this season - I've got an event to go to this afternoon and I am dreading this aspect of it - David Doud grower, IN below 0*F, way behind on pruning ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples
Thank you, Kevin, for your comments on how GMOs are needed in many countries to ensure a reliable food supply. At our national plant pathology meetings last summer, we heard a keynote speaker, a female scientist from South Africa, address that same issue. In fact, she pointed out that glyphosate-resistant crops provided female emancipation on many small farms because it was the women who were expected to provide the family food supply from small gardens, and before glyphosate resistant crops became available they had to spend incredible amounts of time hand-hoeing crops in the heat of summer. She also mentioned how incorporating disease resistance into cassava via genetic modification could drastically improve food stability. After listening to her impassioned presentation, I pretty much decided that the anti-GMO folks in Europe and North America are really just neocolonialists and male chauvinists who lack compassion for the less fortunate members of the human race. Genetically modified foods, at least GMOs that do not include DNA from other organisms, will eventually be broadly accepted because they offer so many advantages over conventional breeding. Those who are totally opposed to GMOs are, in my opinion, very similar to those who were convinced that motorized vehicles should not be allowed to displace horses. Motorized vehicles have certainly brought with them a host of human health and environmental issues, but I doubt that there are any GMO-phobes willing to live without any of the advantages that we gain from using motorized vehicles. Instead, we have learned to live with motorized vehicles by regulating their manufacture and use. However, I doubt that Arctic Apples will have the revolutionary impact of the Model-T Ford. Instead, I am more interested in watching the progression of Simplot’s GMO potato because it offers the consumer a potato that, when fried, will contain less of a compound that is recognized as a potential carcinogen. This should eventually force consumers to choose between “safer” potato products (as in reduced carcinogen risk) or non-GMO products with higher carcinogen risk. How/if Simplot eventually capitalizes on this GMO potato will be instructive for other commodity groups. On Feb 26, 2015, at 11:45 AM, kuffelcr...@kuffelcreek.com wrote: As a nurseryman with a stake in East Africa, I find the discussion fascinating. Here GMO is being used to slightly modify a cosmetic flaw in an apple for marketing purposes; where I work with in Uganda, it is being used to give resistance to plantain bananas to a devistating disease that is wiping out their food supply, with people starving as a result. The Arctic Apple folks claim that their product is the most tested apple in history, and this is why APHIS had to approve it; their conclusion cannot be affected by public opinion or demand, but on science. What if it indeed proves in the long run to be safe? (I've seen zero research stating otherwise). I wish with you guys that the first GMO apple released would have been something that's actually useful to us, such as reducing the 12-20 sprays necessary to bring an apple to market, but as far as GMO actions go, this one is pretty benign; switching off a gene already in the apple and not imported from a moth or potato, for a minor alteraion. But maybe this was the place they had to start to address a very important question; is this indeed safe, and should it be used to protect the world's food supply? Kevin Hauser Kuffel Creek Apple Nursery Riverside, California Nakifuma, Uganda On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 15:09:33 +, Shoemaker, William H wshoe...@illinois.edu wrote: I like your comment David, and I agree. I don't want to carry water for them anyway. All of these companies pay big money for the best lawyers and lobbyists. They need to help defending their actions. I take the position when pressed by folks who are not familiar with genetic engineering that I'm comfortable with the technique, but that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with how its being employed. I'd like to see more caution and more effort to give the public real answers to their questions about these products and about the way these techniques are used. I think they companies which employ GMOs don't feel they need to be accountable for the products they are putting into the marketplace. Every direct-market growers knows that they face accountability, like it or not, and must reconcile with it in some way. And while these companies do to, like it or not, I don't think they are being fair to the consumer in the marketplace by failing to make more effort to address their questi ons about their products. So I tell those folks who ask that I can't defend the products, not because I think they are unsafe, but because I don't agree with the way they are being introduced into the market. Bill William H. Shoemaker Retired fruit and
[apple-crop] arctic apples
Well, I have been to two social events since the GMO 'Arctic apples' have been in the news - and that is what people want to talk to me about - and pretty much only that... How are you all handling this? My personal opinions aside, I don't want to 'carry water' for these guys - they aren't going to let me grow them even if I wanted to and I don't feel inclined to spend my time and credibility providing them cover and fighting their marketing struggle for them - This is going to be a frequently reoccurring issue this season - I've got an event to go to this afternoon and I am dreading this aspect of it - David Doud grower, IN below 0*F, way behind on pruning ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples
I like your comment David, and I agree. I don't want to carry water for them anyway. All of these companies pay big money for the best lawyers and lobbyists. They need to help defending their actions. I take the position when pressed by folks who are not familiar with genetic engineering that I'm comfortable with the technique, but that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with how its being employed. I'd like to see more caution and more effort to give the public real answers to their questions about these products and about the way these techniques are used. I think they companies which employ GMOs don't feel they need to be accountable for the products they are putting into the marketplace. Every direct-market growers knows that they face accountability, like it or not, and must reconcile with it in some way. And while these companies do to, like it or not, I don't think they are being fair to the consumer in the marketplace by failing to make more effort to address their questi ons about their products. So I tell those folks who ask that I can't defend the products, not because I think they are unsafe, but because I don't agree with the way they are being introduced into the market. Bill William H. Shoemaker Retired fruit and vegetable horticulturist University of Illinois wshoe...@illinois.edu From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] on behalf of David Doud [david_d...@me.com] Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 8:53 AM To: Apple-Crop Subject: [apple-crop] arctic apples Well, I have been to two social events since the GMO 'Arctic apples' have been in the news - and that is what people want to talk to me about - and pretty much only that... How are you all handling this? My personal opinions aside, I don't want to 'carry water' for these guys - they aren't going to let me grow them even if I wanted to and I don't feel inclined to spend my time and credibility providing them cover and fighting their marketing struggle for them - This is going to be a frequently reoccurring issue this season - I've got an event to go to this afternoon and I am dreading this aspect of it - David Doud grower, IN below 0*F, way behind on pruning ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples
David, I think the easy solution at markets might be a variation of your last paragraph. Nice signage stating all of our apples are non-GMO. It could even turn out to be a plus in terms of direct marketing. Perhaps a good non-gmo sign will make the sale before I have to explain why I can't produce marketable fruit organically. Wishful thinking anyway. On 2/26/2015 11:42 AM, David Doud wrote: Well argued David - now will you attend my markets with me and repeat that to every third customer? If I spend my time making these points will Arctic apples reimburse me? Will Arctic apples let me grow their material in return for 'carrying their water'? This dialog is being forced on me, the front line representative - I resent it - I particularly resent being expected to defend it on the basis of cosmetic issues that were/are addressable by conventional breeding - You know what the short easy answer is for me and people in my position? My opinion is GMO apples will give you cancer and cause your kids to be autistic. Here - let's have a taste of what I am offering, no GMO herethat bag is $7, thanks very much - It's tempting - D On Feb 26, 2015, at 11:07 AM, David A. Rosenberger wrote: Thank you, Kevin, for your comments on how GMOs are needed in many countries to ensure a reliable food supply. At our national plant pathology meetings last summer, we heard a keynote speaker, a female scientist from South Africa, address that same issue. In fact, she pointed out that glyphosate-resistant crops provided female emancipation on many small farms because it was the women who were expected to provide the family food supply from small gardens, and before glyphosate resistant crops became available they had to spend incredible amounts of time hand-hoeing crops in the heat of summer. She also mentioned how incorporating disease resistance into cassava via genetic modification could drastically improve food stability. After listening to her impassioned presentation, I pretty much decided that the anti-GMO folks in Europe and North America are really just neocolonialists and male chauvinists who lack compassion for the less fortunate members of the human race. Genetically modified foods, at least GMOs that do not include DNA from other organisms, will eventually be broadly accepted because they offer so many advantages over conventional breeding. Those who are totally opposed to GMOs are, in my opinion, very similar to those who were convinced that motorized vehicles should not be allowed to displace horses. Motorized vehicles have certainly brought with them a host of human health and environmental issues, but I doubt that there are any GMO-phobes willing to live without any of the advantages that we gain from using motorized vehicles. Instead, we have learned to live with motorized vehicles by regulating their manufacture and use. However, I doubt that Arctic Apples will have the revolutionary impact of the Model-T Ford. Instead, I am more interested in watching the progression of Simplot’s GMO potato because it offers the consumer a potato that, when fried, will contain less of a compound that is recognized as a potential carcinogen. This should eventually force consumers to choose between “safer” potato products (as in reduced carcinogen risk) or non-GMO products with higher carcinogen risk. How/if Simplot eventually capitalizes on this GMO potato will be instructive for other commodity groups. On Feb 26, 2015, at 11:45 AM, kuffelcr...@kuffelcreek.com wrote: As a nurseryman with a stake in East Africa, I find the discussion fascinating. Here GMO is being used to slightly modify a cosmetic flaw in an apple for marketing purposes; where I work with in Uganda, it is being used to give resistance to plantain bananas to a devistating disease that is wiping out their food supply, with people starving as a result. The Arctic Apple folks claim that their product is the most tested apple in history, and this is why APHIS had to approve it; their conclusion cannot be affected by public opinion or demand, but on science. What if it indeed proves in the long run to be safe? (I've seen zero research stating otherwise). I wish with you guys that the first GMO apple released would have been something that's actually useful to us, such as reducing the 12-20 sprays necessary to bring an apple to market, but as far as GMO actions go, this one is pretty benign; switching off a gene already in the apple and not imported from a moth or potato, for a minor alteraion. But maybe this was the place they had to start to address a very important question; is this indeed safe, and should it be used to protect the world's food supply? Kevin Hauser Kuffel Creek Apple Nursery Riverside, California Nakifuma, Uganda On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 15:09:33 +, Shoemaker, William H wshoe...@illinois.edu wrote: I like your comment David, and I agree. I don't want to carry water for
Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples
That's the thing, it seems to me, roughly the same arguments of implicit fear used against GMO apples are also used against conventional apple growers by organic marketing. I completely understand the frustration resulting from the short term focus of club releases, but it seems to me that is different than the GMO/Non GMO debate. I think playing on unwarranted fear is destructive to any industry. The organic folks haven't figured this out yet because they are riding a wave, but I remember someone posting some time ago a link which showed some unhappy news anchors about DPA. I recall the anchors didn't say they were going to start eating organic apples, which would have been the conclusion organic growers would have been looking for, rather the anchors said they were going to switch to chocolate! Of course it's possible to differentiate one part of a market segment from another via clever marketing, but I doubt narrow market segmentation based on fear is successful in the long term. Mark Angermayer Tubby Fruits orchard On 2/26/15, Brian Heatherington beechcreekfa...@earthlink.net wrote: David, I think the easy solution at markets might be a variation of your last paragraph. Nice signage stating all of our apples are non-GMO. It could even turn out to be a plus in terms of direct marketing. Perhaps a good non-gmo sign will make the sale before I have to explain why I can't produce marketable fruit organically. Wishful thinking anyway. On 2/26/2015 11:42 AM, David Doud wrote: Well argued David - now will you attend my markets with me and repeat that to every third customer? If I spend my time making these points will Arctic apples reimburse me? Will Arctic apples let me grow their material in return for 'carrying their water'? This dialog is being forced on me, the front line representative - I resent it - I particularly resent being expected to defend it on the basis of cosmetic issues that were/are addressable by conventional breeding - You know what the short easy answer is for me and people in my position? My opinion is GMO apples will give you cancer and cause your kids to be autistic. Here - let's have a taste of what I am offering, no GMO herethat bag is $7, thanks very much - It's tempting - D On Feb 26, 2015, at 11:07 AM, David A. Rosenberger wrote: Thank you, Kevin, for your comments on how GMOs are needed in many countries to ensure a reliable food supply. At our national plant pathology meetings last summer, we heard a keynote speaker, a female scientist from South Africa, address that same issue. In fact, she pointed out that glyphosate-resistant crops provided female emancipation on many small farms because it was the women who were expected to provide the family food supply from small gardens, and before glyphosate resistant crops became available they had to spend incredible amounts of time hand-hoeing crops in the heat of summer. She also mentioned how incorporating disease resistance into cassava via genetic modification could drastically improve food stability. After listening to her impassioned presentation, I pretty much decided that the anti-GMO folks in Europe and North America are really just neocolonialists and male chauvinists who lack compassion for the less fortunate members of the human race. Genetically modified foods, at least GMOs that do not include DNA from other organisms, will eventually be broadly accepted because they offer so many advantages over conventional breeding. Those who are totally opposed to GMOs are, in my opinion, very similar to those who were convinced that motorized vehicles should not be allowed to displace horses. Motorized vehicles have certainly brought with them a host of human health and environmental issues, but I doubt that there are any GMO-phobes willing to live without any of the advantages that we gain from using motorized vehicles. Instead, we have learned to live with motorized vehicles by regulating their manufacture and use. However, I doubt that Arctic Apples will have the revolutionary impact of the Model-T Ford. Instead, I am more interested in watching the progression of Simplot’s GMO potato because it offers the consumer a potato that, when fried, will contain less of a compound that is recognized as a potential carcinogen. This should eventually force consumers to choose between “safer” potato products (as in reduced carcinogen risk) or non-GMO products with higher carcinogen risk. How/if Simplot eventually capitalizes on this GMO potato will be instructive for other commodity groups. On Feb 26, 2015, at 11:45 AM, kuffelcr...@kuffelcreek.com wrote: As a nurseryman with a stake in East Africa, I find the discussion fascinating. Here GMO is being used to slightly modify a cosmetic flaw in an apple for marketing purposes; where I work with in Uganda, it is being used to give resistance to plantain bananas to a devistating disease that is
Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples
On Feb 26, 2015, at 9:53 AM, David Doud wrote: Well, I have been to two social events since the GMO 'Arctic apples' have been in the news - and that is what people want to talk to me about - and pretty much only that... How are you all handling this? My personal opinions aside, I don't want to 'carry water' for these guys - they aren't going to let me grow them even if I wanted to and I don't feel inclined to spend my time and credibility providing them cover and fighting their marketing struggle for them - This is going to be a frequently reoccurring issue this season - I've got an event to go to this afternoon and I am dreading this aspect of it - David Doud grower, IN below 0*F, way behind on pruning I am just a consumer, and don't have to sell apples. But my guess is, if you are fielding this question at parties, that people are just asking you because they are curious, and perceive you as an expert on the subject. If it comes up at parties, I think you can say whatever you want -- between talking about how wonderful the arctic apples will be, or whining about how you aren't going to be able to get them, and then talking about the economics of apple growing, or bemoaning the lack of regulation, or, you know, pretty much anything. If you are asked by a potential customer, I would advise replying something non-commital, like those aren't available to grow, yet, so I haven't researched it, or none of the apples I am selling are GMO. You might want to grow GMO apples a few years down the line, and you might not want to box yourself into an anti-GMO stance. And of course, you don't want to waste your time arguing in favor of a product you don't have. Again, I'm just a consumer. But I don't think you need to engage at all with consumers on the topic if you don't want to. Ginda Fisher buried in snow in eastern MA ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples
I was an orchard worker, picking and pruning and teaching others the same, in NH for 30 years. Organic apples were a rarity and certainly not an economic proposition for a grower. Then I discovered wild blueberries and moved to Maine, where organic blueberries are quite profitable and so I became a grower . Oddly enough, most of the retailers I serve would really rather I was not organic, because I get a premium price. But they are willing to pay it for superior service and a guarantee of condition which other growers do not offer. I became orga nic very early in my growing career, only partly as a marketing tool (to those retailers who demanded it) but primarily to avoid having to work in a chemical environment. Imagine my surprise, then, when about 5 years ago Pediatrics published a study by some professors, based on USDA surveys. 1) among all pesticide residues, malathion was present to the largest degree on two crops, strawberries and blueberries. 2) in a random collection of 1000 children whose urine was analyzed, the group which showed above average amounts of malathion metabolite also showed twice the incidence of ADHD.I realize this can not be treated as Gospel, but it certainly makes me feel that my organic certification is not a waste of money. I do plan to write a short educational leaflet setting forth these facts to encourage all my retailers. As for GMOs, I can almost endorse the sentiments of the Cornell prof. My main objection is that the argument in favor of GMOs always boils down to the lack of studies showing any harm from GMOs. The unspoken assumption then becomes that the burden of proof is on the opponents. In my view, that is a false version of the scientific method. Testing of a new GMO would in many cases, if not almost all, require independent study by a multi-discipline group over a period of two or three decades. Nobody wants to do that, or can afford it. Arthur Harvey, Hartford, Maine On Thu, 2/26/15, Ginda Fisher l...@ginda.us wrote: Subject: Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples To: Apple-crop discussion list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Date: Thursday, February 26, 2015, 7:04 PM On Feb 26, 2015, at 9:53 AM, David Doud wrote: Well, I have been to two social events since the GMO 'Arctic apples' have been in the news - and that is what people want to talk to me about - and pretty much only that... How are you all handling this? My personal opinions aside, I don't want to 'carry water' for these guys - they aren't going to let me grow them even if I wanted to and I don't feel inclined to spend my time and credibility providing them cover and fighting their marketing struggle for them - This is going to be a frequently reoccurring issue this season - I've got an event to go to this afternoon and I am dreading this aspect of it - David Doud grower, IN below 0*F, way behind on pruning I am just a consumer, and don't have to sell apples. But my guess is, if you are fielding this question at parties, that people are just asking you because they are curious, and perceive you as an expert on the subject. If it comes up at parties, I think you can say whatever you want -- between talking about how wonderful the arctic apples will be, or whining about how you aren't going to be able to get them, and then talking about the economics of apple growing, or bemoaning the lack of regulation, or, you know, pretty much anything. If you are asked by a potential customer, I would advise replying something non-commital, like those aren't available to grow, yet, so I haven't researched it, or none of the apples I am selling are GMO. You might want to grow GMO apples a few years down the line, and you might not want to box yourself into an anti-GMO stance. And of course, you don't want to waste your time arguing in favor of a product you don't have. Again, I'm just a consumer. But I don't think you need to engage at all with consumers on the topic if you don't want to. Ginda Fisher buried in snow in eastern MA ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples
I can appreciate your frustration, David, and your “easy answer” gave me a good chuckle. I certainly would NOT attempt to relay the concepts in my last post to the average consumer while attempting to sell them apples. What would be the point? Most consumers arrive with very pre-concieved ideas about GMOs and I don’t think that the point of sale is the best time to attempt re-education (if that is even remotely possible). I suspect that the best approach is to be non-commital, and perhaps to note that none of the apples currently available for sale are GMOs. When non-ag folks ask me about GMOs, I usually tell them that, as with any technology, GMOs bring exciting new possibilities but also pose dangers that need to be carefully regulated. I am not particularly excited about the advantages of Arctic Apples, although it will be interesting to see if they eventually play a role in expanding the shelf life of sliced apples. On the other hand, if I encountered a loud-mouthed GMO-phobe preaching the evils of GMOs at a party, I probably would point out to them that their opinions may be forcing less fortunate folks around the world into difficult subsistence life styles that could be, at least to some extent, remedied via GMO technology. Since any discussion of GMOs can generate heated arguments, it may be best if none of you ever invite me to your parties! On Feb 26, 2015, at 11:42 AM, David Doud david_d...@me.com wrote: Well argued David - now will you attend my markets with me and repeat that to every third customer? If I spend my time making these points will Arctic apples reimburse me? Will Arctic apples let me grow their material in return for 'carrying their water'? This dialog is being forced on me, the front line representative - I resent it - I particularly resent being expected to defend it on the basis of cosmetic issues that were/are addressable by conventional breeding - You know what the short easy answer is for me and people in my position? My opinion is GMO apples will give you cancer and cause your kids to be autistic. Here - let's have a taste of what I am offering, no GMO herethat bag is $7, thanks very much - It's tempting - D On Feb 26, 2015, at 11:07 AM, David A. Rosenberger wrote: Thank you, Kevin, for your comments on how GMOs are needed in many countries to ensure a reliable food supply. At our national plant pathology meetings last summer, we heard a keynote speaker, a female scientist from South Africa, address that same issue. In fact, she pointed out that glyphosate-resistant crops provided female emancipation on many small farms because it was the women who were expected to provide the family food supply from small gardens, and before glyphosate resistant crops became available they had to spend incredible amounts of time hand-hoeing crops in the heat of summer. She also mentioned how incorporating disease resistance into cassava via genetic modification could drastically improve food stability. After listening to her impassioned presentation, I pretty much decided that the anti-GMO folks in Europe and North America are really just neocolonialists and male chauvinists who lack compassion for the less fortunate members of the human race. Genetically modified foods, at least GMOs that do not include DNA from other organisms, will eventually be broadly accepted because they offer so many advantages over conventional breeding. Those who are totally opposed to GMOs are, in my opinion, very similar to those who were convinced that motorized vehicles should not be allowed to displace horses. Motorized vehicles have certainly brought with them a host of human health and environmental issues, but I doubt that there are any GMO-phobes willing to live without any of the advantages that we gain from using motorized vehicles. Instead, we have learned to live with motorized vehicles by regulating their manufacture and use. However, I doubt that Arctic Apples will have the revolutionary impact of the Model-T Ford. Instead, I am more interested in watching the progression of Simplot’s GMO potato because it offers the consumer a potato that, when fried, will contain less of a compound that is recognized as a potential carcinogen. This should eventually force consumers to choose between “safer” potato products (as in reduced carcinogen risk) or non-GMO products with higher carcinogen risk. How/if Simplot eventually capitalizes on this GMO potato will be instructive for other commodity groups. On Feb 26, 2015, at 11:45 AM, kuffelcr...@kuffelcreek.com wrote: As a nurseryman with a stake in East Africa, I find the discussion fascinating. Here GMO is being used to slightly modify a cosmetic flaw in an apple for marketing purposes; where I work with in Uganda, it is being used to give resistance to plantain bananas to a devistating disease that is
Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples
We have returned from attendance at our event and mercifully Arctic apples did not come up - likely because of the stimulating program that was enjoyed by a room full of scientists - David R., you state and ask I certainly would NOT attempt to relay the concepts in my last post to the average consumer while attempting to sell them apples. What would be the point?.. - I see the point being respect for my customers - they have concerns and they are insulted and discouraged by paternalistic attitudes of those who would talk down to them - they have questions and I am (for better or worse) the expert because I grow apples and stand on the opposite side of the table from them every week (everyday, actually) - I am willing to do my best to explain the methods I use and measures I take to get my apples on that table - it gets complicated and takes lots of time, but I'll keep after it as long as there is communication and understanding - I don't want to, and am trying to plan how I will not, spend my time answering questions about Arctic apples - the people that stand to profit need to deal with this - the conundrum is doing this without adding to irrational anti-science sentiment and without disrespecting my customers. David Doud On Feb 26, 2015, at 6:50 PM, David A. Rosenberger wrote: I can appreciate your frustration, David, and your “easy answer” gave me a good chuckle. I certainly would NOT attempt to relay the concepts in my last post to the average consumer while attempting to sell them apples. What would be the point? Most consumers arrive with very pre-concieved ideas about GMOs and I don’t think that the point of sale is the best time to attempt re-education (if that is even remotely possible). I suspect that the best approach is to be non-commital, and perhaps to note that none of the apples currently available for sale are GMOs. When non-ag folks ask me about GMOs, I usually tell them that, as with any technology, GMOs bring exciting new possibilities but also pose dangers that need to be carefully regulated. I am not particularly excited about the advantages of Arctic Apples, although it will be interesting to see if they eventually play a role in expanding the shelf life of sliced apples. On the other hand, if I encountered a loud-mouthed GMO-phobe preaching the evils of GMOs at a party, I probably would point out to them that their opinions may be forcing less fortunate folks around the world into difficult subsistence life styles that could be, at least to some extent, remedied via GMO technology. Since any discussion of GMOs can generate heated arguments, it may be best if none of you ever invite me to your parties! On Feb 26, 2015, at 11:42 AM, David Doud david_d...@me.com wrote: Well argued David - now will you attend my markets with me and repeat that to every third customer? If I spend my time making these points will Arctic apples reimburse me? Will Arctic apples let me grow their material in return for 'carrying their water'? This dialog is being forced on me, the front line representative - I resent it - I particularly resent being expected to defend it on the basis of cosmetic issues that were/are addressable by conventional breeding - You know what the short easy answer is for me and people in my position? My opinion is GMO apples will give you cancer and cause your kids to be autistic. Here - let's have a taste of what I am offering, no GMO herethat bag is $7, thanks very much - It's tempting - D On Feb 26, 2015, at 11:07 AM, David A. Rosenberger wrote: Thank you, Kevin, for your comments on how GMOs are needed in many countries to ensure a reliable food supply. At our national plant pathology meetings last summer, we heard a keynote speaker, a female scientist from South Africa, address that same issue. In fact, she pointed out that glyphosate-resistant crops provided female emancipation on many small farms because it was the women who were expected to provide the family food supply from small gardens, and before glyphosate resistant crops became available they had to spend incredible amounts of time hand-hoeing crops in the heat of summer. She also mentioned how incorporating disease resistance into cassava via genetic modification could drastically improve food stability. After listening to her impassioned presentation, I pretty much decided that the anti-GMO folks in Europe and North America are really just neocolonialists and male chauvinists who lack compassion for the less fortunate members of the human race. Genetically modified foods, at least GMOs that do not include DNA from other organisms, will eventually be broadly accepted because they offer so many advantages over conventional breeding. Those who are totally opposed to GMOs are, in my opinion, very similar to those who were convinced that motorized vehicles
Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples
I think you present an interesting example Claude. I'm not sure how many people remember the irradiation technology anymore. Ginda presents evidence that it is still used, but it seems to me that for all its potential, it is used at a very minimal level. Yet it had such potential for addressing an issue that still plagues us today; safe food. It wonderful to have a technology that guarantees safe food, or more productive food, or reduced use of pesticides, or more money in the pocket for producers, packagers, processors and purveyors. Now, if we could only get those darn consumers to eat this stuff!!! What's wrong with them?!! Why don't they just accept what we have to say?!! It's safe, darn it Of course it is. But really, we don't pay for the product in the marketplace. Consumers do. So convincing each other on this list will be fine and dandy. If only we could just buy each others product, make our profits and sleep well at night. Who will convince consumers that GMOs are safe? Government regulators? Local growers? University researchers? News anchors? Leading politicians? I will submit that those most responsible for making the case for the safety of GMOs is none of the above. It must be done by those who stand to profit most from it; the corporate entities which are licensing it and introducing it to the marketplace. Even if all of those other stellar folks I suggested as alternatives made wonderful arguments in favor of these products, consumers want to hear from those who are actually using the technology and introducing the food they are expected to purchase, eat and tell their neighbors about (What a wonderful time they had with this delightful GMO!). Now you may be getting the impression I don't like genetic engineering. You'd be wrong. I think its a fantastic technology with enormous promise. I think I've watched every GMO fruit and vegetable variety that was introduced to the market since the Flavor Savor tomato, back in the early 90's. I was stunned when it wasn't accepted by consumers. It was followed by several other products. A few have survived but those are generally handled in the market without consumers knowing that they are buying and eating a genetically engineered food. Flavor Savor was withdrawn pretty quickly. Why? Consumers didn't accept it. Its been a couple of decades since, and consumers generally are still not buying the argument that GMOs are safe. What is wrong with these people?!! What is wrong is that, in the marketplace, where people are free to make the choices they want to make, based on their best understanding of the choices before them, no one has managed to make the case that this is a better product. Its really not difficult. Until someone convinces them, they will remain,.unconvinced. Who will step forward and convince these poor people? Don't you think it ought to be the people who have the most to gain from convincing them? I think that would be the people who license the technology. You can try to make the case its safe to your consumers. They'll decide for themselves. But the bottom line is that, whoever is supposed to make that case has done a pretty poor job of it. Do you want to take that problem on? Again, you may not need to. You can get by just fine without Arctic Apple I would guess. There are lots of other choices out there that would probably be better for your customers anyway. Besides, its not really being introduced as a fresh market apple. Still, its being introduced and the marketplace will reckon with it. It always does. Will the consumer be better off? I think that's the question that needs to be answered. Those who license the technology should be up front in answering that question and win the marketplace with their own resources. David R. brings up good points about the potential of this safe technology to address so many pressing issues facing food and agriculture locally and globally. Its just a crying shame that the brand of GMO has been so mishandled by those making most of the money from it. Bill William H. Shoemaker Retired fruit and vegetable horticulturist University of Illinois wshoe...@illinois.edumailto:wshoe...@illinois.edu From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] on behalf of Claude Jolicoeur [cj...@gmc.ulaval.ca] Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 6:57 PM To: Apple-crop Subject: Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples Le 18:50 2015.02.26, vous avez écrit: I am not particularly excited about the advantages of Arctic Apples, although it will be interesting to see if they eventually play a role in expanding the shelf life of sliced apples. There was a discussion on those apples on another forum recently, and one person had a very interesting argument, which I think makes a lot of sense. It would be that these apples are not intended to be sold direct to consumers...
Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples
Keeping with the Arctic Apple discussion. The Arctic Apple is supposed to be like no other apple in that they have turned off a gene so that it does not turn brown like all other apples. That statement is misleading since there are apple varieties/cultivars among the thousands of varieties that can be sliced and the pieces do not turn brown. These are natural bee pollinated genetics, not scientifically manipulated. I wonder why they would spend so much money developing a non-browning apple when they could easily do it the benign way? I think there is more cost in marketing hype here than in the actual genetic work. For example, here in New Brunswick, Canada we have the Tangowine apple, dark purplish skin, snow white sweet flesh with attractive pink streaks, and cut pieces can be set on a table for days without turning brown. It is also very resistant to scab. It was an open pollinated apple found growing in a gravel pit. In their promotion of the Arctic apple they added a challenge, Now if we could just get rid of the seeds! Well, we have seedless apples here in New Brunswick too. Daryl Hunter ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples
At the risk of being my usual terse self: 1.) I would be a lot more worried about this http://www.the-open-mind.com/mit-estimates-half-of-all-children-autistic-in-10-years-due-to-monsanto-1/#fsWKjef2oeh3k4OW.01 (FWIW), and this http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/26/us/food-waste-is-becoming-serious-economic-and-environmental-issue-report-says.html?_r=1, and this, http://fruitgrowersnews.com/index.php/news/release/44207, and long URL's :-). 2.) Don't forget the apple-crop posts are archived here: http://www.mail-archive.com/apple-crop@virtualorchard.net/ I hope that does not give anyone pause to post, however, you might get a call from NPR. David Doud, your 'water carrying' may have only just begun... 3.) I do think spraying (synthetic, inorganic pesticides to be clear, see #1.) and ladders are the bane of this industry. I am convinced on the latter, could be swayed on the former. That being said, clearly eating apples is healthier than eating (GMO'd) Fritos®. 4.) I read somewhere that the only way the public is going to accept GMO's is if it has a demonstrable benefit to them. Makes sense. They don't give a hoot about any benefit to the farmer. (Well, at least the average public doesn't?) Don't Arctic® Apples fit this scenario? Of course, if we can engineer GMO's so their apples aren't sprayers with synthetic chemical pesticides (see #1.), wouldn't they like that and be of obvious benefit to them? (See #1. again, is there a pattern here?) 5.) How can you argue the fact that if you could offer your customers a better experience by giving them an apple (slice) that does not brown, why would you not endorse that? 6.) What ever happened to BST/BGH push-back and labeling? Ginda, I will let you look that one up. 7.) I do think the apple industry reaction to this is a bit NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard). I will have to admit, sometimes the NIMBY's are correct, sometimes they are off-base IMHO. Only the future will tell, and I am through trying to predict that. Good night. Jon On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 10:53 AM, David Doud david_d...@me.com wrote: Well, I have been to two social events since the GMO 'Arctic apples' have been in the news - and that is what people want to talk to me about - and pretty much only that... How are you all handling this? My personal opinions aside, I don't want to 'carry water' for these guys - they aren't going to let me grow them even if I wanted to and I don't feel inclined to spend my time and credibility providing them cover and fighting their marketing struggle for them - This is going to be a frequently reoccurring issue this season - I've got an event to go to this afternoon and I am dreading this aspect of it - David Doud grower, IN below 0*F, way behind on pruning ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop -- Jon Clements aka 'Mr Honeycrisp' UMass Cold Spring Orchard 393 Sabin St. Belchertown, MA 01007 413-478-7219 umassfruit.com ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
