Re: [arr] - Zindagi Zindagi (Gulzarji and Javedji).. to lalisingh

[Vinayakam Murugan]

:) :) :)

Warm Regards
~~~
Vinayak



On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 9:38 PM, V S Rawat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   On 10/19/2008 12:31 PM India Time, _Gomzy_ wrote:
>
> > I am surprised with your comments below. Initially you just said that
> > Gulzar's poetry is senseless.
> > And now all the explanation. You do see that Javed Akhtar is being
> > crticised here right?
> > Hasnt he worked with ARR now? Infact more than anyone i guess.
>
> Even the great Vairamuthu got criticized in this list when he gave bad
> lyrics.
>
> :-) :-) :-)
>
> (running away to shelter)
> --
> Rawat
>
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 9:55 PM, lalisingh20 <[EMAIL 
> > PROTECTED]
> > > wrote:
> >
> > Thank you Kamal and thank you Neetika for the translation of Chalka.
> > That is exactly the point I was trying to make. Javed ji or Prasoon
> > Joshi lyrics are simple and very effective, you don't need a dictionry
> > to find out the meaning. Infact Javed ji's lyrics set the mood of the
> > song and already tell you what is happening in the song without
> > watching it.
> >
> > Anyway, I knew critisizing rahman in this group does not go well, but
> > I didn't know critisizing anyone who has worked with him will do the
> > same. I was actually talking about the sell-ability of the song.
> > your average person out there is not going to understand the lyrics or
> > have time to go find the meaning, therefore I was saying it may hurt
> > the popularity of the songs. it's much easier to remember and humm a
> > song if you know the meaning and understand it. Gulzar is a legend,
> > who am I, but I think it hurts RAhmans music if only some elite group
> > of people understand it. Like kaissiom said, it's open to
> > interpretation -based on how much you understand. I like how he
> > translated "do-peher" to "half of life". Even I was thinking why is
> > this guy so depressed about the afternoon? but who knows may be he is
> > depressed about waiting from morning to afternoon.
> >
> > I"m from north india too, i have had good exposure to hindi and also
> > exposure to urdu, so it does help me understand some of gulzars
> > lyrics. I think gulzar tries to be like Mirza Galib, but uses hindi
> > words also. I also love Rahman gulzar combo, it's just I have to
> > listen the song in confusion for some time before I fully understand
> > the meaning of it. I mean who can forget Ae Ajnabi, dil se re, etc.
> > Gulzar is amazing,a legend, he's different, yes, but all I said was he
> > was "overrated" compared to javed sahab and that brought these flood
> > of messages. should Rahman work with Gulzar - absolutely, I would
> > love hear gulzars lyrics in RAhmans private albums, it would give it a
> > different height all together, but for commercial stuff, I would go
> > with javed sahab or Prasoon joshi. If it's gulzar lyrics, the weight
> > heavily lies on Music to carry the lyrics. In case of Javed sahab the
> > weight is somewhat evenly carried by music and lyrics. Dil se was a
> > superhit mostly because it has out of the world music, even if Himesh
> > Reshmaiya had sang Chaiya and Surma Bhopali had written the lyrics for
> > it, it would still be a super hit.
> >
> > May be I should do this in future or Gopal can do this every post that
> > way we know when to attack and when not to:
> >
> > Message: About lyrics not music
> > ARR/non-ARR: Related to ARR but not directly.
> > Positive/Negative: Positive (concerned about the
> > popularity/sell-ability of Rahman's songs)
> > Opinion/Fact: One person's opinion
> > Group attack [yes/no]: No, not required. because it says LYRICS is
> > 'overrated' not MUSIC.
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In arrahmanfans@yahoogroups.com 
> > ,
> "Leslie D" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Although slightly off topic for a ARR group, this is the best post I
> > have
> > > seen in ages.. Very well said .. Exactly what I felt like but to be
> > true, I
> > > would have never been able to write it so beautifully. Great Job ..
> > Thanks
> > >
> > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Kamal Aakarsh Vishnubhotla <
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear Lalisingh,
> > > >
> > > > i beg to differ. Gulzar is a very, very different lyricist. he is
> > special,
> > > > because he uses words, different words for sure, to give a
> > different
> > > > sensibility. and more importantly, he is probably the only
> > lyricist who is
> > > > fascinated by and who emphasizes on the sound of the words. his
> > poetry is
> > > > something which involves aesthetic imaginatin rather than pure word
> > > > meanings. Like if he writes "Saansein Uljhi hui hain", it doesnt
> > mean that
> > > > someone is having breathing problems..it is more indepth...in the
> > sense that
> > > > the 'vitality of survival seems to be disturbed'. I agree that the
> > lyrics
> > > > are not as direct as other lyricists, but then thats a different
> > style he
> > > > has go

Re: [arr] - Zindagi Zindagi (Gulzarji and Javedji).. to lalisingh

[V S Rawat]

On 10/19/2008 12:31 PM India Time, _Gomzy_ wrote:

> I am surprised with your comments below. Initially you just said that 
> Gulzar's poetry is senseless.
> And now all the explanation. You do see that Javed Akhtar is being 
> crticised here right?
> Hasnt he worked with ARR now? Infact more than anyone i guess.

Even the great Vairamuthu got criticized in this list when he gave bad 
lyrics.

:-) :-) :-)

(running away to shelter)
-- 
Rawat

> 
> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 9:55 PM, lalisingh20 <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
> 
> Thank you Kamal and thank you Neetika for the translation of Chalka.
> That is exactly the point I was trying to make. Javed ji or Prasoon
> Joshi lyrics are simple and very effective, you don't need a dictionry
> to find out the meaning. Infact Javed ji's lyrics set the mood of the
> song and already tell you what is happening in the song without
> watching it.
> 
> Anyway, I knew critisizing rahman in this group does not go well, but
> I didn't know critisizing anyone who has worked with him will do the
> same. I was actually talking about the sell-ability of the song.
> your average person out there is not going to understand the lyrics or
> have time to go find the meaning, therefore I was saying it may hurt
> the popularity of the songs. it's much easier to remember and humm a
> song if you know the meaning and understand it. Gulzar is a legend,
> who am I, but I think it hurts RAhmans music if only some elite group
> of people understand it. Like kaissiom said, it's open to
> interpretation -based on how much you understand. I like how he
> translated "do-peher" to "half of life". Even I was thinking why is
> this guy so depressed about the afternoon? but who knows may be he is
> depressed about waiting from morning to afternoon.
> 
> I"m from north india too, i have had good exposure to hindi and also
> exposure to urdu, so it does help me understand some of gulzars
> lyrics. I think gulzar tries to be like Mirza Galib, but uses hindi
> words also. I also love Rahman gulzar combo, it's just I have to
> listen the song in confusion for some time before I fully understand
> the meaning of it. I mean who can forget Ae Ajnabi, dil se re, etc.
> Gulzar is amazing,a legend, he's different, yes, but all I said was he
> was "overrated" compared to javed sahab and that brought these flood
> of messages. should Rahman work with Gulzar - absolutely, I would
> love hear gulzars lyrics in RAhmans private albums, it would give it a
> different height all together, but for commercial stuff, I would go
> with javed sahab or Prasoon joshi. If it's gulzar lyrics, the weight
> heavily lies on Music to carry the lyrics. In case of Javed sahab the
> weight is somewhat evenly carried by music and lyrics. Dil se was a
> superhit mostly because it has out of the world music, even if Himesh
> Reshmaiya had sang Chaiya and Surma Bhopali had written the lyrics for
> it, it would still be a super hit.
> 
> May be I should do this in future or Gopal can do this every post that
> way we know when to attack and when not to:
> 
> Message: About lyrics not music
> ARR/non-ARR: Related to ARR but not directly.
> Positive/Negative: Positive (concerned about the
> popularity/sell-ability of Rahman's songs)
> Opinion/Fact: One person's opinion
> Group attack [yes/no]: No, not required. because it says LYRICS is
> 'overrated' not MUSIC.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In arrahmanfans@yahoogroups.com
> , "Leslie D" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>  >
>  > Although slightly off topic for a ARR group, this is the best post I
> have
>  > seen in ages.. Very well said .. Exactly what I felt like but to be
> true, I
>  > would have never been able to write it so beautifully. Great Job ..
> Thanks
>  >
>  > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Kamal Aakarsh Vishnubhotla <
>  > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  >
>  > > Dear Lalisingh,
>  > >
>  > > i beg to differ. Gulzar is a very, very different lyricist. he is
> special,
>  > > because he uses words, different words for sure, to give a
> different
>  > > sensibility. and more importantly, he is probably the only
> lyricist who is
>  > > fascinated by and who emphasizes on the sound of the words. his
> poetry is
>  > > something which involves aesthetic imaginatin rather than pure word
>  > > meanings. Like if he writes "Saansein Uljhi hui hain", it doesnt
> mean that
>  > > someone is having breathing problems..it is more indepth...in the
> sense that
>  > > the 'vitality of survival seems to be disturbed'. I agree that the
> lyrics
>  > > are not as direct as other lyricists, but then thats a different
> style he
>  > >

Re: [arr] - Zindagi Zindagi (Gulzarji and Javedji).. to lalisingh

[Gomzy]

I am surprised with your comments below. Initially you just said that
Gulzar's poetry is senseless.
And now all the explanation. You do see that Javed Akhtar is being crticised
here right?
Hasnt he worked with ARR now? Infact more than anyone i guess.

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 9:55 PM, lalisingh20 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   Thank you Kamal and thank you Neetika for the translation of Chalka.
> That is exactly the point I was trying to make. Javed ji or Prasoon
> Joshi lyrics are simple and very effective, you don't need a dictionry
> to find out the meaning. Infact Javed ji's lyrics set the mood of the
> song and already tell you what is happening in the song without
> watching it.
>
> Anyway, I knew critisizing rahman in this group does not go well, but
> I didn't know critisizing anyone who has worked with him will do the
> same. I was actually talking about the sell-ability of the song.
> your average person out there is not going to understand the lyrics or
> have time to go find the meaning, therefore I was saying it may hurt
> the popularity of the songs. it's much easier to remember and humm a
> song if you know the meaning and understand it. Gulzar is a legend,
> who am I, but I think it hurts RAhmans music if only some elite group
> of people understand it. Like kaissiom said, it's open to
> interpretation -based on how much you understand. I like how he
> translated "do-peher" to "half of life". Even I was thinking why is
> this guy so depressed about the afternoon? but who knows may be he is
> depressed about waiting from morning to afternoon.
>
> I"m from north india too, i have had good exposure to hindi and also
> exposure to urdu, so it does help me understand some of gulzars
> lyrics. I think gulzar tries to be like Mirza Galib, but uses hindi
> words also. I also love Rahman gulzar combo, it's just I have to
> listen the song in confusion for some time before I fully understand
> the meaning of it. I mean who can forget Ae Ajnabi, dil se re, etc.
> Gulzar is amazing,a legend, he's different, yes, but all I said was he
> was "overrated" compared to javed sahab and that brought these flood
> of messages. should Rahman work with Gulzar - absolutely, I would
> love hear gulzars lyrics in RAhmans private albums, it would give it a
> different height all together, but for commercial stuff, I would go
> with javed sahab or Prasoon joshi. If it's gulzar lyrics, the weight
> heavily lies on Music to carry the lyrics. In case of Javed sahab the
> weight is somewhat evenly carried by music and lyrics. Dil se was a
> superhit mostly because it has out of the world music, even if Himesh
> Reshmaiya had sang Chaiya and Surma Bhopali had written the lyrics for
> it, it would still be a super hit.
>
> May be I should do this in future or Gopal can do this every post that
> way we know when to attack and when not to:
>
> Message: About lyrics not music
> ARR/non-ARR: Related to ARR but not directly.
> Positive/Negative: Positive (concerned about the
> popularity/sell-ability of Rahman's songs)
> Opinion/Fact: One person's opinion
> Group attack [yes/no]: No, not required. because it says LYRICS is
> 'overrated' not MUSIC.
>
>
> --- In arrahmanfans@yahoogroups.com ,
> "Leslie D" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Although slightly off topic for a ARR group, this is the best post I
> have
> > seen in ages.. Very well said .. Exactly what I felt like but to be
> true, I
> > would have never been able to write it so beautifully. Great Job ..
> Thanks
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Kamal Aakarsh Vishnubhotla <
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Lalisingh,
> > >
> > > i beg to differ. Gulzar is a very, very different lyricist. he is
> special,
> > > because he uses words, different words for sure, to give a different
> > > sensibility. and more importantly, he is probably the only
> lyricist who is
> > > fascinated by and who emphasizes on the sound of the words. his
> poetry is
> > > something which involves aesthetic imaginatin rather than pure word
> > > meanings. Like if he writes "Saansein Uljhi hui hain", it doesnt
> mean that
> > > someone is having breathing problems..it is more indepth...in the
> sense that
> > > the 'vitality of survival seems to be disturbed'. I agree that the
> lyrics
> > > are not as direct as other lyricists, but then thats a different
> style he
> > > has got, which no one else has got. he has got his own grammar,
> > > sensibilities etc. like he uses 'Chulha' to weave an aura of
> 'earthiess' and
> > > prefers that over the usual 'Rasoi'. ofcourse literal imagination
> of Stove,
> > > kills that earthiness.
> > >
> > > With due respects to Javed Akhar (who is my another favourite), i
> find his
> > > lyrics are top class for sure, flowery, feel-good, nice, direct.
> No qualms
> > > about it, for they reach the common man for sure. They dont lack
> anything.
> > > but there has been a lineage for his brand of poetry (his father
> Jan Nisar
> > > Akhtar or 

Re: [arr] - Zindagi Zindagi (Gulzarji and Javedji).. to lalisingh

[Nagaraj]

Hi,

Yes. I second your words when you say Javed Akhthar's lyrics are 
simple. I am tamilian and i have learnt hindi upto like class 9 
level. Even i can understand javed's lyrics. But Gulzar definitely 
nope. 

Btw, you do u say others contradicting your view as attacking. 
Just people want to express their views like u do. If there no 
different views in people then we wont have this grps rite :)

Regards,
S.V.Nagaraj


--- In arrahmanfans@yahoogroups.com, "lalisingh20" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> Thank you Kamal and thank you Neetika for the translation of 
Chalka. 
> That is exactly the point I was trying to make.  Javed ji or Prasoon
> Joshi lyrics are simple and very effective, you don't need a 
dictionry
> to find out the meaning.  Infact Javed ji's lyrics set the mood of 
the
> song and already tell you what is happening in the song without
> watching it.
> 
> Anyway, I knew critisizing rahman in this group does not go well, 
but
> I didn't know critisizing anyone who has worked with him will do the
> same.  I was actually talking about the sell-ability of the song. 
> your average person out there is not going to understand the lyrics 
or
> have time to go find the meaning, therefore I was saying it may hurt
> the popularity of the songs. it's much easier to remember and humm a
> song if you know the meaning and understand it.  Gulzar is a legend,
> who am I, but I think it hurts RAhmans music if only some elite 
group
> of people understand it.  Like kaissiom said, it's open to
> interpretation -based on how much you understand.  I like how he
> translated "do-peher" to "half of life".  Even I was thinking why is
> this guy so depressed about the afternoon? but who knows may be he 
is
> depressed about waiting from morning to afternoon.
> 
> I"m from north india too, i have had good exposure to hindi and also
> exposure to urdu, so it does help me understand some of gulzars
> lyrics.  I think gulzar tries to be like Mirza Galib, but uses hindi
> words also. I also love Rahman gulzar combo, it's just I have to
> listen the song in confusion for some time before I fully understand
> the meaning of it. I mean who can forget Ae Ajnabi, dil se re, etc.
> Gulzar is amazing,a legend, he's different, yes, but all I said was 
he
> was "overrated" compared to javed sahab and that brought these flood
> of messages.  should Rahman work with Gulzar - absolutely, I would
> love hear gulzars lyrics in RAhmans private albums, it would give 
it a
> different height all together, but for commercial stuff, I would go
> with javed sahab or Prasoon joshi.  If it's gulzar lyrics, the 
weight
> heavily lies on Music to carry the lyrics.  In case of Javed sahab 
the
> weight is somewhat evenly carried by music and lyrics.  Dil se was a
> superhit mostly because it has out of the world music, even if 
Himesh
> Reshmaiya had sang Chaiya and Surma Bhopali had written the lyrics 
for
> it, it would still be a super hit.
> 
> May be I should do this in future or Gopal can do this every post 
that
> way we know when to attack and when not to:
> 
> Message: About lyrics not music
> ARR/non-ARR: Related to ARR but not directly.
> Positive/Negative: Positive (concerned about the
> popularity/sell-ability of Rahman's songs)
> Opinion/Fact: One person's opinion
> Group attack [yes/no]: No, not required. because it says LYRICS is
> 'overrated' not MUSIC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In arrahmanfans@yahoogroups.com, "Leslie D"  wrote:
> >
> > Although slightly off topic for a ARR group, this is the best 
post I
> have
> > seen in ages.. Very well said .. Exactly what I felt like but to 
be
> true, I
> > would have never  been able to write it so beautifully. Great 
Job ..
> Thanks
> > 
> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Kamal Aakarsh Vishnubhotla <
> > aakarsh_vk@> wrote:
> > 
> > >   Dear Lalisingh,
> > >
> > > i beg to differ. Gulzar is a very, very different lyricist. he 
is
> special,
> > > because he uses words, different words for sure, to give a 
different
> > > sensibility. and more importantly, he is probably the only
> lyricist who is
> > > fascinated by and who emphasizes on the sound of the words. his
> poetry is
> > > something which involves aesthetic imaginatin rather than pure 
word
> > > meanings. Like if he writes "Saansein Uljhi hui hain", it doesnt
> mean that
> > > someone is having breathing problems..it is more indepth...in 
the
> sense that
> > > the 'vitality of survival seems to be disturbed'. I agree that 
the
> lyrics
> > > are not as direct as other lyricists, but then thats a different
> style he
> > > has got, which no one else has got. he has got his own grammar,
> > > sensibilities etc. like he uses 'Chulha' to weave an aura of
> 'earthiess' and
> > > prefers that over the usual 'Rasoi'. ofcourse literal 
imagination
> of Stove,
> > > kills that earthiness.
> > >
> > > With due respects to Javed Akhar (who is my another favourite), 
i
> find his
> > > lyrics are top class for sure, flowery, feel-good

Re: [arr] - Zindagi Zindagi (Gulzarji and Javedji).. to lalisingh

[Pravinder Sheoran]

Hi Kamal,
I perfectly understand what you mean.
I knew some of it but could not convert into words.
You said it all, and wrote beautifully.

By the way if you are still curious about 'Chalka Chalka' song
translation, read my another mail and I am sure some of your curiosity
will be settled.

Pravinder.  
--- In arrahmanfans@yahoogroups.com, Kamal Aakarsh Vishnubhotla
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Dear Lalisingh,
>  
> i beg to differ. Gulzar is a very, very different lyricist. he is
special, because he uses words, different words for sure, to give a
different sensibility. and more importantly, he is probably the only
lyricist who is fascinated by and who emphasizes on the sound of the
words. his poetry is something which involves aesthetic imaginatin
rather than pure word meanings. Like if he writes "Saansein Uljhi hui
hain", it doesnt mean that someone is having breathing problems..it is
more indepth...in the sense that the 'vitality of survival seems to be
disturbed'. I agree that the lyrics are not as direct as other
lyricists, but then thats a different style he has got, which no one
else has got. he has got his own grammar, sensibilities etc. like he
uses 'Chulha' to weave an aura of 'earthiess' and prefers that over
the usual 'Rasoi'. ofcourse literal imagination of Stove, kills that
earthiness.
>  
> With due respects to Javed Akhar (who is my another favourite), i
find his lyrics are top class for sure, flowery, feel-good, nice,
direct. No qualms about it, for they reach the common man for sure.
They dont lack anything. but there has been a lineage for his brand of
poetry (his father Jan Nisar Akhtar or his father-in-law Kaifi Azami).
I dont mean to take credit away from him, but the 'lehaaz' or the
'tehezeeb' or the grammar of his language has comeo him as a legacy
and he is successfully carrying it forward. but Gulzar, on the
otherhand , developed his own inimitable style of poetry, usage of
words, grammar, sensibility, not only in urdu, but in pure Hindi also.
Gulzar's lines are little esoteric, a bit thought-provoking. It
depends on individual taste anyways. Like there are two ways of
looking at "Chaiiyya Chaiya" lyrics. Are they commonly understood
lines? No.. So we can find fault... But did they make you curious to
know their meanings?
>  For me, YES ..i searched for every meaning..word-by-word and the
song's beauty manifested in more sublimal realm. It works for me.
>  
> One of my fav line of Gulzar: Raqs karthi hai Shab bhar, meri
tanhaayee hain.. (from a non-ARR song).
>  
> Firstly, i liked the sound of the words Raqs and Shab. if you are
curious enough, plz look into their meanings and let me know if you
liked that line.
>  
> To give a very loose generic analogy, Javed Akhtar's lines are like
Ashutosh Gowariker films..Simple...Very good..honest.. and Gulzar's
lines are like Maniratnam films.. a bit more aesthetic,
thought-provoking, sensitive.  Now i dont know if it is coincidence or
my exactness in analogy, that Ashutosh vibes well with Javed Akhtar
and Maniratnam with Gulzar. .
>  
> As i said, it is matter of one's sensibilities and the kind of
poetry one likes. Both are geniuses in their own way.
> 
> 
> Regards
> Kamal Aakarsh Vishnubhotla.
>  
> http://kamal-aakarsh.blogspot.com 
>  
> 
> --- On Sat, 10/18/08, Pravinder Sheoran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> From: Pravinder Sheoran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [arr] Re: [Translation] - Zindagi Zindagi
> To: arrahmanfans@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, October 18, 2008, 2:18 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does not matter how many reasons you give man,
> Gulzar is the best lyricist we have in Indian film industry.
> 
> Why don't you listen the following:
> Saathiya,
> Satarangi re,
> Mera yaar milade saaiyan
> 
> and many more.
> 
> Pravinder.
> 
> --- In arrahmanfans@ yahoogroups. com, "lalisingh20" 
> wrote:
> >
> > OK my sense of poetry is overrated. Could u please explain the poetry
> > behind these lyrics below, it makes no sense to me at all:
> > 
> > Chalka Chalka Re from Saathiya:
> > 
> > "gaeyaa meree pyaasee rah gayee 
> > tulasee vaalee vaadee rah gayee
> > chuulhaa main jalaatee rah gayee"
> > 
> > As far as I can understand it says
> > "My cow remained thirsty
> > the valley of tulasi remained
> > I kept burning the stove"
> > 
> > Now, someone please explain how these genius of lyrics are supposed to
> > describe the joy of a girl who is engaged and about to get married.
> > 
> > I don't even understand tamil and I prefer listening to Yaro Yarodi
> > than listening to the Chalka chalka one because it makes no damn
> > sense. Better to listen to something that you don't understand than
> > listen to something that makes no sense.
> > 
> > I'm nobody to doubt Gulzars lyrics, but honestly Javed Akthar write
> > simple yet elegant lyrics, and to the point. Gulzar write these
> > metaphors that only he can understand. Like i mentioned gulzars lyrix
> > are fancy because the plugs in hindi/urdu/farsi words. Since most
> > pe

Re: [arr] - Zindagi Zindagi (Gulzarji and Javedji).. to lalisingh

[Kamal Aakarsh Vishnubhotla]

Hi Lalisingh,
 
dude, this was a discussion...a mere exchange of thoughts. plz dont view it as 
an attack. i just gave my take on how two different schools of poetry are, that 
too, both being favourites to quite many here. So, Relax!  Also, i failed to 
realize that I actually drifted away from ARR centric discussion, when i was 
writing that. Sorry for that folks.
 
And to be honest, although i love gulzar's poetry in ARR songs, i feel such 
kind of poetry is more justified in Vishal Bharadwaj's music than in ARR's 
music (exception being Dil Se). I dont wish to annoy fans here, but it is a 
purely personal opinion. I dont mean that ARR doesnt justify..I am only saying 
Vishal justifies an extra measure. and that could be probably because he 
understands the language more/better than ARR who has recently picked up 
hindi/Urdu. 
 
The bottomline however is, the only lyricists i look up, to team up with ARR e 
Gulzar and Javed Akhtar. And ofcourse, Prasoon Joshi too.


Regards
Kamal Aakarsh Vishnubhotla.
 
http://kamal-aakarsh.blogspot.com 
 

--- On Sat, 10/18/08, lalisingh20 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: lalisingh20 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [arr] - Zindagi Zindagi (Gulzarji and Javedji).. to lalisingh
To: arrahmanfans@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, October 18, 2008, 9:55 PM






Thank you Kamal and thank you Neetika for the translation of Chalka. 
That is exactly the point I was trying to make. Javed ji or Prasoon
Joshi lyrics are simple and very effective, you don't need a dictionry
to find out the meaning. Infact Javed ji's lyrics set the mood of the
song and already tell you what is happening in the song without
watching it.

Anyway, I knew critisizing rahman in this group does not go well, but
I didn't know critisizing anyone who has worked with him will do the
same. I was actually talking about the sell-ability of the song. 
your average person out there is not going to understand the lyrics or
have time to go find the meaning, therefore I was saying it may hurt
the popularity of the songs. it's much easier to remember and humm a
song if you know the meaning and understand it. Gulzar is a legend,
who am I, but I think it hurts RAhmans music if only some elite group
of people understand it. Like kaissiom said, it's open to
interpretation -based on how much you understand. I like how he
translated "do-peher" to "half of life". Even I was thinking why is
this guy so depressed about the afternoon? but who knows may be he is
depressed about waiting from morning to afternoon.

I"m from north india too, i have had good exposure to hindi and also
exposure to urdu, so it does help me understand some of gulzars
lyrics. I think gulzar tries to be like Mirza Galib, but uses hindi
words also. I also love Rahman gulzar combo, it's just I have to
listen the song in confusion for some time before I fully understand
the meaning of it. I mean who can forget Ae Ajnabi, dil se re, etc.
Gulzar is amazing,a legend, he's different, yes, but all I said was he
was "overrated" compared to javed sahab and that brought these flood
of messages. should Rahman work with Gulzar - absolutely, I would
love hear gulzars lyrics in RAhmans private albums, it would give it a
different height all together, but for commercial stuff, I would go
with javed sahab or Prasoon joshi. If it's gulzar lyrics, the weight
heavily lies on Music to carry the lyrics. In case of Javed sahab the
weight is somewhat evenly carried by music and lyrics. Dil se was a
superhit mostly because it has out of the world music, even if Himesh
Reshmaiya had sang Chaiya and Surma Bhopali had written the lyrics for
it, it would still be a super hit.

May be I should do this in future or Gopal can do this every post that
way we know when to attack and when not to:

Message: About lyrics not music
ARR/non-ARR: Related to ARR but not directly.
Positive/Negative: Positive (concerned about the
popularity/sell- ability of Rahman's songs)
Opinion/Fact: One person's opinion
Group attack [yes/no]: No, not required. because it says LYRICS is
'overrated' not MUSIC.

--- In arrahmanfans@ yahoogroups. com, "Leslie D" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .> wrote:
>
> Although slightly off topic for a ARR group, this is the best post I
have
> seen in ages.. Very well said .. Exactly what I felt like but to be
true, I
> would have never been able to write it so beautifully. Great Job ..
Thanks
> 
> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Kamal Aakarsh Vishnubhotla <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] ..> wrote:
> 
> > Dear Lalisingh,
> >
> > i beg to differ. Gulzar is a very, very different lyricist. he is
special,
> > because he uses words, different words for sure, to give a different
> > sensibility. and more importantly, he is probably the only
lyricist who is
> > fascinated by and who emphasizes on

Re: [arr] - Zindagi Zindagi (Gulzarji and Javedji).. to lalisingh

[Shah Navas]

Good analogy . .great post .  .thanks

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Leslie D <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   Although slightly off topic for a ARR group, this is the best post I
> have seen in ages.. Very well said .. Exactly what I felt like but to be
> true, I would have never  been able to write it so beautifully.  Great Job
> .. Thanks
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Kamal Aakarsh Vishnubhotla <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>   Dear Lalisingh,
>>
>> i beg to differ. Gulzar is a very, very different lyricist. he is special,
>> because he uses words, different words for sure, to give a different
>> sensibility. and more importantly, he is probably the only lyricist who is
>> fascinated by and who emphasizes on the sound of the words. his poetry is
>> something which involves aesthetic imaginatin rather than pure word
>> meanings. Like if he writes "Saansein Uljhi hui hain", it doesnt mean that
>> someone is having breathing problems..it is more indepth...in the sense that
>> the 'vitality of survival seems to be disturbed'. I agree that the lyrics
>> are not as direct as other lyricists, but then thats a different style he
>> has got, which no one else has got. he has got his own grammar,
>> sensibilities etc. like he uses 'Chulha' to weave an aura of 'earthiess' and
>> prefers that over the usual 'Rasoi'. ofcourse literal imagination of Stove,
>> kills that earthiness.
>>
>> With due respects to Javed Akhar (who is my another favourite), i find his
>> lyrics are top class for sure, flowery, feel-good, nice, direct. No qualms
>> about it, for they reach the common man for sure. They dont lack anything.
>> but there has been a lineage for his brand of poetry (his father Jan Nisar
>> Akhtar or his father-in-law Kaifi Azami). I dont mean to take credit away
>> from him, but the 'lehaaz' or the 'tehezeeb' or the grammar of his
>> language has comeo him as a legacy and he is successfully carrying it
>> forward. but Gulzar, on the otherhand , developed his own inimitable style
>> of poetry, usage of words, grammar, sensibility, not only in urdu, but in
>> pure Hindi also. Gulzar's lines are little esoteric, a bit
>> thought-provoking. It depends on individual taste anyways. Like there are
>> two ways of looking at "Chaiiyya Chaiya" lyrics. Are they commonly
>> understood lines? No.. So we can find fault... But did they make you curious
>> to know their meanings? For me, YES ..i searched for every
>> meaning..word-by-word and the song's beauty manifested in more sublimal
>> realm. It works for me.
>>
>> One of my fav line of Gulzar: Raqs karthi hai Shab bhar, meri tanhaayee
>> hain.. (from a non-ARR song).
>>
>> Firstly, i liked the sound of the words Raqs and Shab. if you are curious
>> enough, plz look into their meanings and let me know if you liked that line.
>>
>> To give a very loose generic analogy, Javed Akhtar's lines are like
>> Ashutosh Gowariker films..Simple...Very good..honest.. and Gulzar's lines
>> are like Maniratnam films.. a bit more aesthetic, thought-provoking,
>> sensitive.  Now i dont know if it is coincidence or my exactness in analogy,
>> that Ashutosh vibes well with Javed Akhtar and Maniratnam with Gulzar. .
>>
>> As i said, it is matter of one's sensibilities and the kind of poetry one
>> likes. Both are geniuses in their own way.
>>  Regards
>> *Kamal Aakarsh Vishnubhotla.*
>> **
>> *http://kamal-aakarsh.blogspot.com *
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On *Sat, 10/18/08, Pravinder Sheoran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>*wrote:
>>
>> From: Pravinder Sheoran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: [arr] Re: [Translation] - Zindagi Zindagi
>> To: arrahmanfans@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Saturday, October 18, 2008, 2:18 PM
>>
>>  Does not matter how many reasons you give man,
>> Gulzar is the best lyricist we have in Indian film industry.
>>
>> Why don't you listen the following:
>> Saathiya,
>> Satarangi re,
>> Mera yaar milade saaiyan
>>
>> and many more.
>>
>> Pravinder.
>>
>> --- In arrahmanfans@ yahoogroups. com ,
>> "lalisingh20" 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > OK my sense of poetry is overrated. Could u please explain the poetry
>> > behind these lyrics below, it makes no sense to me at all:
>> >
>> > Chalka Chalka Re from Saathiya:
>> >
>> > "gaeyaa meree pyaasee rah gayee
>> > tulasee vaalee vaadee rah gayee
>> > chuulhaa main jalaatee rah gayee"
>> >
>> > As far as I can understand it says
>> > "My cow remained thirsty
>> > the valley of tulasi remained
>> > I kept burning the stove"
>> >
>> > Now, someone please explain how these genius of lyrics are supposed to
>> > describe the joy of a girl who is engaged and about to get married.
>> >
>> > I don't even understand tamil and I prefer listening to Yaro Yarodi
>> > than listening to the Chalka chalka one because it makes no damn
>> > sense. Better to listen to something that you don't understand than
>> > listen to something that makes no sense.
>> >
>> > I'm nobody to doubt Gulzars lyrics, but honestly Javed Akthar write
>> > simple yet elegant lyrics, and to th

Re: [arr] - Zindagi Zindagi (Gulzarji and Javedji).. to lalisingh

[lalisingh20]

Thank you Kamal and thank you Neetika for the translation of Chalka. 
That is exactly the point I was trying to make.  Javed ji or Prasoon
Joshi lyrics are simple and very effective, you don't need a dictionry
to find out the meaning.  Infact Javed ji's lyrics set the mood of the
song and already tell you what is happening in the song without
watching it.

Anyway, I knew critisizing rahman in this group does not go well, but
I didn't know critisizing anyone who has worked with him will do the
same.  I was actually talking about the sell-ability of the song. 
your average person out there is not going to understand the lyrics or
have time to go find the meaning, therefore I was saying it may hurt
the popularity of the songs. it's much easier to remember and humm a
song if you know the meaning and understand it.  Gulzar is a legend,
who am I, but I think it hurts RAhmans music if only some elite group
of people understand it.  Like kaissiom said, it's open to
interpretation -based on how much you understand.  I like how he
translated "do-peher" to "half of life".  Even I was thinking why is
this guy so depressed about the afternoon? but who knows may be he is
depressed about waiting from morning to afternoon.

I"m from north india too, i have had good exposure to hindi and also
exposure to urdu, so it does help me understand some of gulzars
lyrics.  I think gulzar tries to be like Mirza Galib, but uses hindi
words also. I also love Rahman gulzar combo, it's just I have to
listen the song in confusion for some time before I fully understand
the meaning of it. I mean who can forget Ae Ajnabi, dil se re, etc.
Gulzar is amazing,a legend, he's different, yes, but all I said was he
was "overrated" compared to javed sahab and that brought these flood
of messages.  should Rahman work with Gulzar - absolutely, I would
love hear gulzars lyrics in RAhmans private albums, it would give it a
different height all together, but for commercial stuff, I would go
with javed sahab or Prasoon joshi.  If it's gulzar lyrics, the weight
heavily lies on Music to carry the lyrics.  In case of Javed sahab the
weight is somewhat evenly carried by music and lyrics.  Dil se was a
superhit mostly because it has out of the world music, even if Himesh
Reshmaiya had sang Chaiya and Surma Bhopali had written the lyrics for
it, it would still be a super hit.

May be I should do this in future or Gopal can do this every post that
way we know when to attack and when not to:

Message: About lyrics not music
ARR/non-ARR: Related to ARR but not directly.
Positive/Negative: Positive (concerned about the
popularity/sell-ability of Rahman's songs)
Opinion/Fact: One person's opinion
Group attack [yes/no]: No, not required. because it says LYRICS is
'overrated' not MUSIC.





--- In arrahmanfans@yahoogroups.com, "Leslie D" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Although slightly off topic for a ARR group, this is the best post I
have
> seen in ages.. Very well said .. Exactly what I felt like but to be
true, I
> would have never  been able to write it so beautifully. Great Job ..
Thanks
> 
> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Kamal Aakarsh Vishnubhotla <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> >   Dear Lalisingh,
> >
> > i beg to differ. Gulzar is a very, very different lyricist. he is
special,
> > because he uses words, different words for sure, to give a different
> > sensibility. and more importantly, he is probably the only
lyricist who is
> > fascinated by and who emphasizes on the sound of the words. his
poetry is
> > something which involves aesthetic imaginatin rather than pure word
> > meanings. Like if he writes "Saansein Uljhi hui hain", it doesnt
mean that
> > someone is having breathing problems..it is more indepth...in the
sense that
> > the 'vitality of survival seems to be disturbed'. I agree that the
lyrics
> > are not as direct as other lyricists, but then thats a different
style he
> > has got, which no one else has got. he has got his own grammar,
> > sensibilities etc. like he uses 'Chulha' to weave an aura of
'earthiess' and
> > prefers that over the usual 'Rasoi'. ofcourse literal imagination
of Stove,
> > kills that earthiness.
> >
> > With due respects to Javed Akhar (who is my another favourite), i
find his
> > lyrics are top class for sure, flowery, feel-good, nice, direct.
No qualms
> > about it, for they reach the common man for sure. They dont lack
anything.
> > but there has been a lineage for his brand of poetry (his father
Jan Nisar
> > Akhtar or his father-in-law Kaifi Azami). I dont mean to take
credit away
> > from him, but the 'lehaaz' or the 'tehezeeb' or the grammar of his
> > language has comeo him as a legacy and he is successfully carrying it
> > forward. but Gulzar, on the otherhand , developed his own
inimitable style
> > of poetry, usage of words, grammar, sensibility, not only in urdu,
but in
> > pure Hindi also. Gulzar's lines are little esoteric, a bit
> > thought-provoking. It depends on individual taste anyways. Like

Re: [arr] - Zindagi Zindagi (Gulzarji and Javedji).. to lalisingh

[Leslie D]

Although slightly off topic for a ARR group, this is the best post I have
seen in ages.. Very well said .. Exactly what I felt like but to be true, I
would have never  been able to write it so beautifully. Great Job .. Thanks

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Kamal Aakarsh Vishnubhotla <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   Dear Lalisingh,
>
> i beg to differ. Gulzar is a very, very different lyricist. he is special,
> because he uses words, different words for sure, to give a different
> sensibility. and more importantly, he is probably the only lyricist who is
> fascinated by and who emphasizes on the sound of the words. his poetry is
> something which involves aesthetic imaginatin rather than pure word
> meanings. Like if he writes "Saansein Uljhi hui hain", it doesnt mean that
> someone is having breathing problems..it is more indepth...in the sense that
> the 'vitality of survival seems to be disturbed'. I agree that the lyrics
> are not as direct as other lyricists, but then thats a different style he
> has got, which no one else has got. he has got his own grammar,
> sensibilities etc. like he uses 'Chulha' to weave an aura of 'earthiess' and
> prefers that over the usual 'Rasoi'. ofcourse literal imagination of Stove,
> kills that earthiness.
>
> With due respects to Javed Akhar (who is my another favourite), i find his
> lyrics are top class for sure, flowery, feel-good, nice, direct. No qualms
> about it, for they reach the common man for sure. They dont lack anything.
> but there has been a lineage for his brand of poetry (his father Jan Nisar
> Akhtar or his father-in-law Kaifi Azami). I dont mean to take credit away
> from him, but the 'lehaaz' or the 'tehezeeb' or the grammar of his
> language has comeo him as a legacy and he is successfully carrying it
> forward. but Gulzar, on the otherhand , developed his own inimitable style
> of poetry, usage of words, grammar, sensibility, not only in urdu, but in
> pure Hindi also. Gulzar's lines are little esoteric, a bit
> thought-provoking. It depends on individual taste anyways. Like there are
> two ways of looking at "Chaiiyya Chaiya" lyrics. Are they commonly
> understood lines? No.. So we can find fault... But did they make you curious
> to know their meanings? For me, YES ..i searched for every
> meaning..word-by-word and the song's beauty manifested in more sublimal
> realm. It works for me.
>
> One of my fav line of Gulzar: Raqs karthi hai Shab bhar, meri tanhaayee
> hain.. (from a non-ARR song).
>
> Firstly, i liked the sound of the words Raqs and Shab. if you are curious
> enough, plz look into their meanings and let me know if you liked that line.
>
> To give a very loose generic analogy, Javed Akhtar's lines are like
> Ashutosh Gowariker films..Simple...Very good..honest.. and Gulzar's lines
> are like Maniratnam films.. a bit more aesthetic, thought-provoking,
> sensitive.  Now i dont know if it is coincidence or my exactness in analogy,
> that Ashutosh vibes well with Javed Akhtar and Maniratnam with Gulzar. .
>
> As i said, it is matter of one's sensibilities and the kind of poetry one
> likes. Both are geniuses in their own way.
>  Regards
> *Kamal Aakarsh Vishnubhotla.*
> **
> *http://kamal-aakarsh.blogspot.com *
>
>
>
> --- On *Sat, 10/18/08, Pravinder Sheoran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>*wrote:
>
> From: Pravinder Sheoran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [arr] Re: [Translation] - Zindagi Zindagi
> To: arrahmanfans@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, October 18, 2008, 2:18 PM
>
>  Does not matter how many reasons you give man,
> Gulzar is the best lyricist we have in Indian film industry.
>
> Why don't you listen the following:
> Saathiya,
> Satarangi re,
> Mera yaar milade saaiyan
>
> and many more.
>
> Pravinder.
>
> --- In arrahmanfans@ yahoogroups. com ,
> "lalisingh20" 
> wrote:
> >
> > OK my sense of poetry is overrated. Could u please explain the poetry
> > behind these lyrics below, it makes no sense to me at all:
> >
> > Chalka Chalka Re from Saathiya:
> >
> > "gaeyaa meree pyaasee rah gayee
> > tulasee vaalee vaadee rah gayee
> > chuulhaa main jalaatee rah gayee"
> >
> > As far as I can understand it says
> > "My cow remained thirsty
> > the valley of tulasi remained
> > I kept burning the stove"
> >
> > Now, someone please explain how these genius of lyrics are supposed to
> > describe the joy of a girl who is engaged and about to get married.
> >
> > I don't even understand tamil and I prefer listening to Yaro Yarodi
> > than listening to the Chalka chalka one because it makes no damn
> > sense. Better to listen to something that you don't understand than
> > listen to something that makes no sense.
> >
> > I'm nobody to doubt Gulzars lyrics, but honestly Javed Akthar write
> > simple yet elegant lyrics, and to the point. Gulzar write these
> > metaphors that only he can understand. Like i mentioned gulzars lyrix
> > are fancy because the plugs in hindi/urdu/farsi words. Since most
> > people dont' understand it they think it must be clas

Re: [arr] - Zindagi Zindagi (Gulzarji and Javedji).. to lalisingh

[Kamal Aakarsh Vishnubhotla]

Dear Lalisingh,
 
i beg to differ. Gulzar is a very, very different lyricist. he is special, 
because he uses words, different words for sure, to give a different 
sensibility. and more importantly, he is probably the only lyricist who is 
fascinated by and who emphasizes on the sound of the words. his poetry is 
something which involves aesthetic imaginatin rather than pure word meanings. 
Like if he writes "Saansein Uljhi hui hain", it doesnt mean that someone is 
having breathing problems..it is more indepth...in the sense that the 'vitality 
of survival seems to be disturbed'. I agree that the lyrics are not as direct 
as other lyricists, but then thats a different style he has got, which no one 
else has got. he has got his own grammar, sensibilities etc. like he uses 
'Chulha' to weave an aura of 'earthiess' and prefers that over the usual 
'Rasoi'. ofcourse literal imagination of Stove, kills that earthiness.
 
With due respects to Javed Akhar (who is my another favourite), i find his 
lyrics are top class for sure, flowery, feel-good, nice, direct. No qualms 
about it, for they reach the common man for sure. They dont lack anything. 
but there has been a lineage for his brand of poetry (his father Jan Nisar 
Akhtar or his father-in-law Kaifi Azami). I dont mean to take credit away from 
him, but the 'lehaaz' or the 'tehezeeb' or the grammar of his 
language has comeo him as a legacy and he is successfully carrying it 
forward. but Gulzar, on the otherhand , developed his own inimitable style of 
poetry, usage of words, grammar, sensibility, not only in urdu, but in pure 
Hindi also. Gulzar's lines are little esoteric, a bit thought-provoking. It 
depends on individual taste anyways. Like there are two ways of looking at 
"Chaiiyya Chaiya" lyrics. Are they commonly understood lines? No.. So we can 
find fault... But did they make you curious to know their meanings?
 For me, YES ..i searched for every meaning..word-by-word and the song's beauty 
manifested in more sublimal realm. It works for me.
 
One of my fav line of Gulzar: Raqs karthi hai Shab bhar, meri tanhaayee hain.. 
(from a non-ARR song).
 
Firstly, i liked the sound of the words Raqs and Shab. if you are curious 
enough, plz look into their meanings and let me know if you liked that line.
 
To give a very loose generic analogy, Javed Akhtar's lines are like Ashutosh 
Gowariker films..Simple...Very good..honest.. and Gulzar's lines are like 
Maniratnam films.. a bit more aesthetic, thought-provoking, sensitive.  Now i 
dont know if it is coincidence or my exactness in analogy, that Ashutosh vibes 
well with Javed Akhtar and Maniratnam with Gulzar. .
 
As i said, it is matter of one's sensibilities and the kind of poetry one 
likes. Both are geniuses in their own way.


Regards
Kamal Aakarsh Vishnubhotla.
 
http://kamal-aakarsh.blogspot.com 
 

--- On Sat, 10/18/08, Pravinder Sheoran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: Pravinder Sheoran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [arr] Re: [Translation] - Zindagi Zindagi
To: arrahmanfans@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, October 18, 2008, 2:18 PM






Does not matter how many reasons you give man,
Gulzar is the best lyricist we have in Indian film industry.

Why don't you listen the following:
Saathiya,
Satarangi re,
Mera yaar milade saaiyan

and many more.

Pravinder.

--- In arrahmanfans@ yahoogroups. com, "lalisingh20" 
wrote:
>
> OK my sense of poetry is overrated. Could u please explain the poetry
> behind these lyrics below, it makes no sense to me at all:
> 
> Chalka Chalka Re from Saathiya:
> 
> "gaeyaa meree pyaasee rah gayee 
> tulasee vaalee vaadee rah gayee
> chuulhaa main jalaatee rah gayee"
> 
> As far as I can understand it says
> "My cow remained thirsty
> the valley of tulasi remained
> I kept burning the stove"
> 
> Now, someone please explain how these genius of lyrics are supposed to
> describe the joy of a girl who is engaged and about to get married.
> 
> I don't even understand tamil and I prefer listening to Yaro Yarodi
> than listening to the Chalka chalka one because it makes no damn
> sense. Better to listen to something that you don't understand than
> listen to something that makes no sense.
> 
> I'm nobody to doubt Gulzars lyrics, but honestly Javed Akthar write
> simple yet elegant lyrics, and to the point. Gulzar write these
> metaphors that only he can understand. Like i mentioned gulzars lyrix
> are fancy because the plugs in hindi/urdu/farsi words. Since most
> people dont' understand it they think it must be class. Also, did you
> know that Chaiya chiaya from dilse is actually a punjabi folk song
> with punjabi lyrics. Alot of people said rahman copied the music, but
> in reality they were talking about the lyrics. Gulzar simply turned
> the punjabi lyrics into hindi/ urdu lyrics.
> 
> I think most people would agree that best Hindi lyrical quality for
> RAhman comes from Javed Akthr and then Prasson Joshi and then maybe
> Mehboob. Every time Rahman teams up with Gulzar, I