Re: ******** Change issues Classification Timing Timing Reason etc.
Sorry to jump so late in this discussion, but you might want to have a close-down approval on latent changes from the business (the end-user), just to make sure that the end-user is satisfied with the change done: - If the close-down approval is approved, that means the user is satisfied. The change can be closed with closed status reason = successful - if the close-down approval is rejected, that means the end user is not satisfied. The change can be closed with a closed status reason that reflects the end-user perceptions. At this point, a new change can be created, and linked to the latent change, to either roll-back the latent change or perform any work that still needs to be done. From an audit and control perspective, you still want approvals for non-standard (non-routine) latent changes. It is a key audit control to have somebody (other than the implementer) to approve the change, even if the change has already happened. Auditors are quite serious about this. Of course, if your company/organization does not get audited for change controls, then you're fine. Guillaume From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [arsl...@arslist.org] on behalf of Martinez, Marcelo A [marc...@cpchem.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 4:24 PM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: Change issues Classification Timing Timing Reason etc. ** Enslin, You must first take a hard look at your Change Mgmt policies before deciding how to utilize the module. As Rick mentioned, the module is very ITIL driven. Here is more or less how we’ve defined ours: Normal: a change entered ahead of time, proper approvals, testing, documentation. Reviewed during weekly change meetings. Latent: change has already taken place. No approvals needed. (what for?). Emergency: relates to the immediate resolution to a known production problem where an outage is eminent. Approvals needed. Expedited: changes that did not make the weekly change meeting. Used by people who “forget” to enter changes and do it last minute. Approval needed. You could add a special approval level here (i.e. all expedited tickets must be approved by their department head). -all changes which require approval must be approved before performing the change, otherwise it is considered unauthorized and tracked as such. Change Mgmt has override approval authority at all levels. PS. Don’t mind going down there to help (if you have tickets to the World Cup! :) ) Marcelo From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arsl...@arslist.org] On Behalf Of Rick Cook Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 10:20 AM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: Change issues Classification Timing Timing Reason etc. ** My first impression was that your company is attempting to use non-ITIL processes in an ITIL software package. That will cause problems similar to what you are seeing. Could I suggest that you attempt to get your people to use the proper process, rather than tweak the software to enforce an improper process? Rick On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 7:34 AM, Enslin Van Blerk - MWEB evanbl...@mweb.commailto:evanbl...@mweb.com wrote: ** Hi I require your assistance please. I don’t really work with the Change management module thus I am a bit in the dark here, asking this question. We have occasions where people will do a change in production and then 3hours later, they want to log the change and resolve it etc. According to what I found in the documentation these changes can be logged as a Latent Change and will then close automatically. We can use this but it is not always the case and sometimes for record purposes we still require people to approve. People log tickets as an emergency in these situations and because this was logged as an emergency we cannot close the ticket because it was logged after the actual start dates. First we get a message, telling us it will be saved to Expedited because the Requested Date is before the earliest Start Date. I will save it as expedited, enter the times for actual start/end date. Then it will tell me, Only Latent changes can have actual start dates that come after the infrastructure change submit date. At this point we have values in “Earliest Start Date” and “Submitted Date” If we try to save the timing field to latent we just receive ARNOTE again telling us it will be saved to Expedited because the Requested Date is before the earliest Start Date. We are not able to close this change with the correct times now, what can we do with these situations? Regards Enslin Error! Filename not specified.http://www.mweb.co.za/productsservices/ This electronic communication and the attached file(s) are subject to a disclaimer which can be accessed on the following link: Disclaimerhttp://www.mweb.co.za/disclaimer - or copy the following URL into your browser - http://www.mweb.co.za/disclaimer. If you are unable
Re: ******** Change issues Classification Timing Timing Reason etc.
What I would ask here is What does it mean to Approve or Reject a Latent change? If I Approve, OK, it is already done so what differnce does it make? If I Reject, problem, it is already done so what difference does it make? If a reject means you want to undo the change -- really, what you are doing is making ANOTHER change. The first change happened. You are now making another one to change back. In a Latent Change, the concept of approval doesn't make sense. You may want NOTIFICATION to appropriate people to occur because they didn't get advance notice in the form of approval and need to be told that the change occurred (for awareness at least and maybe to decide whether to request a change back). The point here is not to try and use approval for notification purposes but for approval purposes. Use Notification for notification purposes. Now, the question might be how do I have the appropriate notifications go out for Latent Change That is a different question (and not one I have the answer for). Doug Mueller From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arsl...@arslist.org] On Behalf Of Rick Cook Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 8:20 AM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: Change issues Classification Timing Timing Reason etc. ** My first impression was that your company is attempting to use non-ITIL processes in an ITIL software package. That will cause problems similar to what you are seeing. Could I suggest that you attempt to get your people to use the proper process, rather than tweak the software to enforce an improper process? Rick On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 7:34 AM, Enslin Van Blerk - MWEB evanbl...@mweb.commailto:evanbl...@mweb.com wrote: ** Hi I require your assistance please. I don't really work with the Change management module thus I am a bit in the dark here, asking this question. We have occasions where people will do a change in production and then 3hours later, they want to log the change and resolve it etc. According to what I found in the documentation these changes can be logged as a Latent Change and will then close automatically. We can use this but it is not always the case and sometimes for record purposes we still require people to approve. People log tickets as an emergency in these situations and because this was logged as an emergency we cannot close the ticket because it was logged after the actual start dates. First we get a message, telling us it will be saved to Expedited because the Requested Date is before the earliest Start Date. I will save it as expedited, enter the times for actual start/end date. Then it will tell me, Only Latent changes can have actual start dates that come after the infrastructure change submit date. At this point we have values in Earliest Start Date and Submitted Date If we try to save the timing field to latent we just receive ARNOTE again telling us it will be saved to Expedited because the Requested Date is before the earliest Start Date. We are not able to close this change with the correct times now, what can we do with these situations? Regards Enslin http://www.mweb.co.za/productsservices/ This electronic communication and the attached file(s) are subject to a disclaimer which can be accessed on the following link: Disclaimerhttp://www.mweb.co.za/disclaimer - or copy the following URL into your browser - http://www.mweb.co.za/disclaimer. If you are unable to view the disclaimer, please contact ab...@mweb.commailto:ab...@mweb.com for a copy. _attend WWRUG10 www.wwrug.comhttp://www.wwrug.com/ ARSlist: Where the Answers Are_ _attend WWRUG10 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: Where the Answers Are_ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org attend wwrug10 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: Where the Answers Are
Re: ******** Change issues Classification Timing Timing Reason etc.
Hi Thanks to all who replied it is appreciated. I tested the Latent change and if I use the Process Flow bar to go through the phases it automatically change the status to Successfully Completed which is great. Now if the change manager tries to close the change they get the following message which prevents them closing it. ERROR Chane Timing will be automatically set to Expedited since Requested Date is before Earliest Start Date. (ARNOTE 45514) Earliest Start Date 18 May 2010 03:01:41 PM Requested Start Date 18 May 2010 09:00:00 AM Scheduled Start Date 18 May 2010 09:00:00 AM Actual Start Date 18 May 2010 09:00:00 AM Submit Date 18 May 2010 03:02:05 PM Requested End Date 18 May 2010 11:00:00 AM Scheduled End Date 18 May 2010 11:00:00 AM Actual End Date18 May 2010 11:00:00 AM What am I doing wrong here? Regards Enslin van Blerk From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arsl...@arslist.org] On Behalf Of Mueller, Doug Sent: 19 May 2010 02:02 PM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: Change issues Classification Timing Timing Reason etc. What I would ask here is What does it mean to Approve or Reject a Latent change? If I Approve, OK, it is already done so what differnce does it make? If I Reject, problem, it is already done so what difference does it make? If a reject means you want to undo the change -- really, what you are doing is making ANOTHER change. The first change happened. You are now making another one to change back. In a Latent Change, the concept of approval doesn't make sense. You may want NOTIFICATION to appropriate people to occur because they didn't get advance notice in the form of approval and need to be told that the change occurred (for awareness at least and maybe to decide whether to request a change back). The point here is not to try and use approval for notification purposes but for approval purposes. Use Notification for notification purposes. Now, the question might be how do I have the appropriate notifications go out for Latent Change That is a different question (and not one I have the answer for). Doug Mueller From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arsl...@arslist.org] On Behalf Of Rick Cook Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 8:20 AM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: Change issues Classification Timing Timing Reason etc. ** My first impression was that your company is attempting to use non-ITIL processes in an ITIL software package. That will cause problems similar to what you are seeing. Could I suggest that you attempt to get your people to use the proper process, rather than tweak the software to enforce an improper process? Rick On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 7:34 AM, Enslin Van Blerk - MWEB evanbl...@mweb.commailto:evanbl...@mweb.com wrote: ** Hi I require your assistance please. I don't really work with the Change management module thus I am a bit in the dark here, asking this question. We have occasions where people will do a change in production and then 3hours later, they want to log the change and resolve it etc. According to what I found in the documentation these changes can be logged as a Latent Change and will then close automatically. We can use this but it is not always the case and sometimes for record purposes we still require people to approve. People log tickets as an emergency in these situations and because this was logged as an emergency we cannot close the ticket because it was logged after the actual start dates. First we get a message, telling us it will be saved to Expedited because the Requested Date is before the earliest Start Date. I will save it as expedited, enter the times for actual start/end date. Then it will tell me, Only Latent changes can have actual start dates that come after the infrastructure change submit date. At this point we have values in Earliest Start Date and Submitted Date If we try to save the timing field to latent we just receive ARNOTE again telling us it will be saved to Expedited because the Requested Date is before the earliest Start Date. We are not able to close this change with the correct times now, what can we do with these situations? Regards Enslin [%20]http://www.mweb.co.za/productsservices/ This electronic communication and the attached file(s) are subject to a disclaimer which can be accessed on the following link: Disclaimerhttp://www.mweb.co.za/disclaimer - or copy the following URL into your browser - http://www.mweb.co.za/disclaimer. If you are unable to view the disclaimer, please contact ab...@mweb.commailto:ab...@mweb.com for a copy. _attend WWRUG10 www.wwrug.comhttp://www.wwrug.com/ ARSlist: Where the Answers Are_ _attend WWRUG10 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: Where the Answers Are_
Re: ******** Change issues Classification Timing Timing Reason etc.
Are the managers also using the progress bar? Anne Ramey *** E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties only by an authorized State Official. From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arsl...@arslist.org] On Behalf Of Enslin Van Blerk - MWEB Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 9:25 AM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: Change issues Classification Timing Timing Reason etc. ** Hi Thanks to all who replied it is appreciated. I tested the Latent change and if I use the Process Flow bar to go through the phases it automatically change the status to Successfully Completed which is great. Now if the change manager tries to close the change they get the following message which prevents them closing it. ERROR Chane Timing will be automatically set to Expedited since Requested Date is before Earliest Start Date. (ARNOTE 45514) Earliest Start Date 18 May 2010 03:01:41 PM Requested Start Date 18 May 2010 09:00:00 AM Scheduled Start Date 18 May 2010 09:00:00 AM Actual Start Date 18 May 2010 09:00:00 AM Submit Date 18 May 2010 03:02:05 PM Requested End Date 18 May 2010 11:00:00 AM Scheduled End Date 18 May 2010 11:00:00 AM Actual End Date18 May 2010 11:00:00 AM What am I doing wrong here? Regards Enslin van Blerk From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arsl...@arslist.org] On Behalf Of Mueller, Doug Sent: 19 May 2010 02:02 PM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: Change issues Classification Timing Timing Reason etc. What I would ask here is What does it mean to Approve or Reject a Latent change? If I Approve, OK, it is already done so what differnce does it make? If I Reject, problem, it is already done so what difference does it make? If a reject means you want to undo the change -- really, what you are doing is making ANOTHER change. The first change happened. You are now making another one to change back. In a Latent Change, the concept of approval doesn't make sense. You may want NOTIFICATION to appropriate people to occur because they didn't get advance notice in the form of approval and need to be told that the change occurred (for awareness at least and maybe to decide whether to request a change back). The point here is not to try and use approval for notification purposes but for approval purposes. Use Notification for notification purposes. Now, the question might be how do I have the appropriate notifications go out for Latent Change That is a different question (and not one I have the answer for). Doug Mueller From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arsl...@arslist.org] On Behalf Of Rick Cook Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 8:20 AM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: Change issues Classification Timing Timing Reason etc. ** My first impression was that your company is attempting to use non-ITIL processes in an ITIL software package. That will cause problems similar to what you are seeing. Could I suggest that you attempt to get your people to use the proper process, rather than tweak the software to enforce an improper process? Rick On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 7:34 AM, Enslin Van Blerk - MWEB evanbl...@mweb.commailto:evanbl...@mweb.com wrote: ** Hi I require your assistance please. I don't really work with the Change management module thus I am a bit in the dark here, asking this question. We have occasions where people will do a change in production and then 3hours later, they want to log the change and resolve it etc. According to what I found in the documentation these changes can be logged as a Latent Change and will then close automatically. We can use this but it is not always the case and sometimes for record purposes we still require people to approve. People log tickets as an emergency in these situations and because this was logged as an emergency we cannot close the ticket because it was logged after the actual start dates. First we get a message, telling us it will be saved to Expedited because the Requested Date is before the earliest Start Date. I will save it as expedited, enter the times for actual start/end date. Then it will tell me, Only Latent changes can have actual start dates that come after the infrastructure change submit date. At this point we have values in Earliest Start Date and Submitted Date If we try to save the timing field to latent we just receive ARNOTE again telling us it will be saved to Expedited because the Requested Date is before the earliest Start Date. We are not able to close this change with the correct times now, what can we do with these situations? Regards Enslin [%20]http://www.mweb.co.za/productsservices
Re: ******** Change issues Classification Timing Timing Reason etc.
We have this issue as well. We use emergency change and as long as the change is entered within 24 hours, we find we can use the progress bar up top to walk the change through it's lifecycle. We can't use the dates tab or it will give us the error you say, but if we use the progress bar up top and enter dates when prompted, it works fine. Anne Ramey *** E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties only by an authorized State Official. From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arsl...@arslist.org] On Behalf Of Enslin Van Blerk - MWEB Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 10:35 AM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Change issues Classification Timing Timing Reason etc. ** Hi I require your assistance please. I don't really work with the Change management module thus I am a bit in the dark here, asking this question. We have occasions where people will do a change in production and then 3hours later, they want to log the change and resolve it etc. According to what I found in the documentation these changes can be logged as a Latent Change and will then close automatically. We can use this but it is not always the case and sometimes for record purposes we still require people to approve. People log tickets as an emergency in these situations and because this was logged as an emergency we cannot close the ticket because it was logged after the actual start dates. First we get a message, telling us it will be saved to Expedited because the Requested Date is before the earliest Start Date. I will save it as expedited, enter the times for actual start/end date. Then it will tell me, Only Latent changes can have actual start dates that come after the infrastructure change submit date. At this point we have values in Earliest Start Date and Submitted Date If we try to save the timing field to latent we just receive ARNOTE again telling us it will be saved to Expedited because the Requested Date is before the earliest Start Date. We are not able to close this change with the correct times now, what can we do with these situations? Regards Enslin [https://webmail.mweb.com/logos/footer.gif]http://www.mweb.co.za/productsservices/ This electronic communication and the attached file(s) are subject to a disclaimer which can be accessed on the following link: Disclaimerhttp://www.mweb.co.za/disclaimer - or copy the following URL into your browser - http://www.mweb.co.za/disclaimer. If you are unable to view the disclaimer, please contact ab...@mweb.commailto:ab...@mweb.com for a copy. _attend WWRUG10 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: Where the Answers Are_ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org attend wwrug10 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: Where the Answers Are
Re: ******** Change issues Classification Timing Timing Reason etc.
Yeah, one of the dirty little secrets of CM 7.x is that you can have 4 different workflow sets to accomplish the same thing (i.e. Approval), and they all work differently - sometimes drastically so. I suspect that is the case here. That's ok if they all work, but not so much if they don't. Rick On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 8:01 AM, Ramey, Anne anne.ra...@nc.gov wrote: ** We have this issue as well. We use emergency change and as long as the change is entered within 24 hours, we find we can use the progress bar up top to walk the change through it's lifecycle. We can't use the dates tab or it will give us the error you say, but if we use the progress bar up top and enter dates when prompted, it works fine. Anne Ramey *** *E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties only by an authorized State Official.* *From:* Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto: arsl...@arslist.org] *On Behalf Of *Enslin Van Blerk - MWEB *Sent:* Tuesday, May 18, 2010 10:35 AM *To:* arslist@ARSLIST.ORG *Subject:* Change issues Classification Timing Timing Reason etc. ** Hi I require your assistance please. I don’t really work with the Change management module thus I am a bit in the dark here, asking this question. We have occasions where people will do a change in production and then 3hours later, they want to log the change and resolve it etc. According to what I found in the documentation these changes can be logged as a Latent Change and will then close automatically. We can use this but it is not always the case and sometimes for record purposes we still require people to approve. People log tickets as an emergency in these situations and because this was logged as an emergency we cannot close the ticket because it was logged after the actual start dates. First we get a message, telling us it will be saved to Expedited because the Requested Date is before the earliest Start Date. I will save it as expedited, enter the times for actual start/end date. Then it will tell me, Only Latent changes can have actual start dates that come after the infrastructure change submit date. At this point we have values in “Earliest Start Date” and “Submitted Date” If we try to save the timing field to latent we just receive ARNOTE again telling us it will be saved to Expedited because the Requested Date is before the earliest Start Date. We are not able to close this change with the correct times now, what can we do with these situations? Regards Enslin -- [image: footer (34K)] http://www.mweb.co.za/productsservices/ This electronic communication and the attached file(s) are subject to a disclaimer which can be accessed on the following link: Disclaimerhttp://www.mweb.co.za/disclaimer - or copy the following URL into your browser - http://www.mweb.co.za/disclaimer. If you are unable to view the disclaimer, please contact ab...@mweb.com ab...@mweb.com for a copy. -- _attend WWRUG10 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: Where the Answers Are_ _attend WWRUG10 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: Where the Answers Are_ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org attend wwrug10 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: Where the Answers Are
Re: ******** Change issues Classification Timing Timing Reason etc.
My first impression was that your company is attempting to use non-ITIL processes in an ITIL software package. That will cause problems similar to what you are seeing. Could I suggest that you attempt to get your people to use the proper process, rather than tweak the software to enforce an improper process? Rick On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 7:34 AM, Enslin Van Blerk - MWEB evanbl...@mweb.com wrote: ** Hi I require your assistance please. I don’t really work with the Change management module thus I am a bit in the dark here, asking this question. We have occasions where people will do a change in production and then 3hours later, they want to log the change and resolve it etc. According to what I found in the documentation these changes can be logged as a Latent Change and will then close automatically. We can use this but it is not always the case and sometimes for record purposes we still require people to approve. People log tickets as an emergency in these situations and because this was logged as an emergency we cannot close the ticket because it was logged after the actual start dates. First we get a message, telling us it will be saved to Expedited because the Requested Date is before the earliest Start Date. I will save it as expedited, enter the times for actual start/end date. Then it will tell me, Only Latent changes can have actual start dates that come after the infrastructure change submit date. At this point we have values in “Earliest Start Date” and “Submitted Date” If we try to save the timing field to latent we just receive ARNOTE again telling us it will be saved to Expedited because the Requested Date is before the earliest Start Date. We are not able to close this change with the correct times now, what can we do with these situations? Regards Enslin -- [image: footer (34K)] http://www.mweb.co.za/productsservices/ This electronic communication and the attached file(s) are subject to a disclaimer which can be accessed on the following link: Disclaimerhttp://www.mweb.co.za/disclaimer - or copy the following URL into your browser - http://www.mweb.co.za/disclaimer. If you are unable to view the disclaimer, please contact ab...@mweb.com ab...@mweb.com for a copy. -- _attend WWRUG10 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: Where the Answers Are_ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org attend wwrug10 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: Where the Answers Are
Re: ******** Change issues Classification Timing Timing Reason etc.
Enslin, You must first take a hard look at your Change Mgmt policies before deciding how to utilize the module. As Rick mentioned, the module is very ITIL driven. Here is more or less how we've defined ours: Normal: a change entered ahead of time, proper approvals, testing, documentation. Reviewed during weekly change meetings. Latent: change has already taken place. No approvals needed. (what for?). Emergency: relates to the immediate resolution to a known production problem where an outage is eminent. Approvals needed. Expedited: changes that did not make the weekly change meeting. Used by people who forget to enter changes and do it last minute. Approval needed. You could add a special approval level here (i.e. all expedited tickets must be approved by their department head). -all changes which require approval must be approved before performing the change, otherwise it is considered unauthorized and tracked as such. Change Mgmt has override approval authority at all levels. PS. Don't mind going down there to help (if you have tickets to the World Cup! :) ) Marcelo From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arsl...@arslist.org] On Behalf Of Rick Cook Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 10:20 AM To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG Subject: Re: Change issues Classification Timing Timing Reason etc. ** My first impression was that your company is attempting to use non-ITIL processes in an ITIL software package. That will cause problems similar to what you are seeing. Could I suggest that you attempt to get your people to use the proper process, rather than tweak the software to enforce an improper process? Rick On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 7:34 AM, Enslin Van Blerk - MWEB evanbl...@mweb.commailto:evanbl...@mweb.com wrote: ** Hi I require your assistance please. I don't really work with the Change management module thus I am a bit in the dark here, asking this question. We have occasions where people will do a change in production and then 3hours later, they want to log the change and resolve it etc. According to what I found in the documentation these changes can be logged as a Latent Change and will then close automatically. We can use this but it is not always the case and sometimes for record purposes we still require people to approve. People log tickets as an emergency in these situations and because this was logged as an emergency we cannot close the ticket because it was logged after the actual start dates. First we get a message, telling us it will be saved to Expedited because the Requested Date is before the earliest Start Date. I will save it as expedited, enter the times for actual start/end date. Then it will tell me, Only Latent changes can have actual start dates that come after the infrastructure change submit date. At this point we have values in Earliest Start Date and Submitted Date If we try to save the timing field to latent we just receive ARNOTE again telling us it will be saved to Expedited because the Requested Date is before the earliest Start Date. We are not able to close this change with the correct times now, what can we do with these situations? Regards Enslin Error! Filename not specified.http://www.mweb.co.za/productsservices/ This electronic communication and the attached file(s) are subject to a disclaimer which can be accessed on the following link: Disclaimerhttp://www.mweb.co.za/disclaimer - or copy the following URL into your browser - http://www.mweb.co.za/disclaimer. If you are unable to view the disclaimer, please contact ab...@mweb.commailto:ab...@mweb.com for a copy. _attend WWRUG10 www.wwrug.comhttp://www.wwrug.com/ ARSlist: Where the Answers Are_ _attend WWRUG10 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: Where the Answers Are_ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at www.arslist.org attend wwrug10 www.wwrug.com ARSlist: Where the Answers Are
