Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-05 Thread Brian Capouch
John Fraizer wrote:
Oh, and if you like your Grandstream, don't ever handle, let alone USE a 
Cisco phone.  You'll be ruined for life if you do.  My grandstream is 
now a toy phone for my 1 y/o son.  It never was much more than a toy 
to begin with.

Oh, and if you like you're money, don't ever order, much less PAY FOR a 
Cisco phone.  You'll be financially ruined for life if you do.  My Cisco 
7960 is in a museum now where people pay me $1 a look, but if they blink 
during the look, because it's a Cisco phone, that adds another quarter 
per blink.  It never was much more than a rich man's toy to begin with.

In other words, we have Grandstreams all over tarnation; they work just 
fine for what they cost, and I can seat a lot more people on VoIP with 
them than I can with Cisco's regally-priced offerings.

B.
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-04 Thread John Fraizer
Tony Hoyle wrote:
Eric Wieling wrote:
Why are you even looking at VoIP?  Analog ports and phones are pretty
cheap.  They are not pretty, but they are cheap and all the smarts are
in the PBX.

Free calls to the US, basically, since the leased line is dirt cheap to 
run.  ie. the purpose of the exercise is to save money not spend it.

I don't define the parameters, just work with them...  I happened to 
mention I was interested in VOIP at the wrong moment and got landed with 
the task.  TBH for what they need they could save a bundle by routing 
the calls through a cheap analogue telco (eg. call18866) and forgetting 
VOIP for a few years until it becomes commodity hardware.

Tony
Well, that's easy enough.  Set an * server up and plug one (or more) of 
your existing analog outbound lines into the * server.  Then, set your 
Analog PBX up to route calls that begin with say *8 or whatever via the 
* server.  Normal calls go out over PSTN, cheap US LD could then be 
dialed as *81NXXNXX.

You can do this with analog cards from Digium or with ATA-186's or one 
of the many other ATA type devices.

John
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-03 Thread Tony Hoyle
Eric Wieling wrote:
Why are you even looking at VoIP?  Analog ports and phones are pretty
cheap.  They are not pretty, but they are cheap and all the smarts are
in the PBX.
Free calls to the US, basically, since the leased line is dirt cheap to 
run.  ie. the purpose of the exercise is to save money not spend it.

I don't define the parameters, just work with them...  I happened to 
mention I was interested in VOIP at the wrong moment and got landed with 
the task.  TBH for what they need they could save a bundle by routing 
the calls through a cheap analogue telco (eg. call18866) and forgetting 
VOIP for a few years until it becomes commodity hardware.

Tony
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-03 Thread Philipp von Klitzing
Hi!

 Our desktop phones were done as a package deal from the building owner
 (who also runs the existing PBX) for almost nothing. 

Then one option is to check if you can keep the PBX and the phones, and 
just put Asterisk in between this PBX and the Telco. Compensate the costs 
of the Asterisk hardware with less spending on calls due to routing 
through a VoIP proivder etc and see if that makes a good argument, but 
don't forget a decent Internet link.

BTW: And are you sure people wouldn't like to have voicemail? You'll need 
to make them want that... ;- I guess you can even argue that voicemail 
increases productivity.

Conferencing: From my experience that is a very handy feature if your 
company does team-oriented work. So the point is NOT to gather everyone 
in the conference room and then use that three-leg monster to talk to 
someone else, but to have everyone sitting in THEIR office and just 
quickly establish an - internal or external - ad-hoc conference when 
needed.

 If I can't spec out a system which is like that then the project will
 be shelved - which I suspect is precisely what my boss wants to happen
 (he's also the main advocate of the MSN Messenger solution). 
 Corporate politics is like that... 

I'd rather use X-Lite than MSN Messenger...

 For myself I'd love to play with a Cisco but with the 7960 going for £600 a 
 throw I'm not in the market for spending that much...

ebay

Cheers, Philipp



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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-03 Thread Tony Hoyle
Philipp von Klitzing wrote:
Then one option is to check if you can keep the PBX and the phones, and 
just put Asterisk in between this PBX and the Telco. Compensate the costs 
of the Asterisk hardware with less spending on calls due to routing 
through a VoIP proivder etc and see if that makes a good argument, but 
don't forget a decent Internet link.
Hmm... we only have access to the company side of the PBX (we own the 
room with the patch board in it, but the PBX itself is actually handled 
elsewhere).  Interesting idea though.

BTW: And are you sure people wouldn't like to have voicemail? You'll need 
to make them want that... ;- I guess you can even argue that voicemail 
increases productivity.
Since we share phones (at least the developers/non customer facing 
people) voicemail wouldn't work too well because we'd get each others' 
messages.  The pen  sticky pad method seems to be OK.  If everyone had 
their own phone of course I could see it being quite useful (even a 
selling point of VOIP).

Conferencing: From my experience that is a very handy feature if your 
company does team-oriented work. So the point is NOT to gather everyone 
in the conference room and then use that three-leg monster to talk to 
someone else, but to have everyone sitting in THEIR office and just 
quickly establish an - internal or external - ad-hoc conference when 
needed.
For most theoretical uses of conference you call a meeting - face to 
face communication can never really be replaced.

For inter-office and customer conferences you generally want to use the 
separate conference room/phone because it's handy to have silent 
listeners giving hand signals when the customer starts talking bull...t 
- it means the customer facing people don't have to understand the 
technical details.


I'd rather use X-Lite than MSN Messenger...
The advantage that MSN Messenger has is that it's installed on every 
machine (whether you like it or not!) so it's a zero effort (and zero 
cost) fallback.

Tony
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-03 Thread Michael Welter
I would not recommend software RAID.  My experience is that, if there is 
a reboot resulting from an abnormal shutdown, Linux will recover 
(re-copy) the secondary drive.  This process pegs the processor 
(90-100%) and takes a lng time.  Of course, voice quality suffers 
when a processor is not available.

Andrew Kohlsmith wrote:
On Wednesday 02 June 2004 22:55, Tony Hoyle wrote:

Probably a good idea.  Just need to work out how much the channel bank
costs (~60 phones at the moment, probably best to allow for ~100).

Adit600 with 48 FXS = ~USD$500-600 on ebay
TE405P = USD$1500
Two Adit600s give you 96 ports and the TE405P will let you grow that to 192 
without breaking a sweat for $2700.  You can save $500 by using two T100Ps 
but you won't be able to get past 96 ports without more Digium hardware... 
and they don't bus master either, but not sure how big a deal that is.  :-)

Remember 96 ports translating from slinear - GSM or iLBC or g729 is going to 
require some processor power.  AND you're talking the backbone of your 
company's phone network too.  At the very least I'd be looking dual Xeon 
(mobo quality speaks for itself) with SCSI RAID1 (HW or SW) and dual 
redundant power.  Supermicro makes such a system, I think 1 proc, 512M ECC 
RAM and dual 9G drives was just under USD$1200.

And if you're playing it safe, you'll have TWO TE405Ps and an entire extra 
Adit600 chassis + power supply + at least 1 T1 controller + 1 octal FXS card 
lying around. 

Ask yourself how much fun it will be to have a dead card/power 
supply/motherboard/channel bank chassis and the entire phone system is down 
while you're sitting there with your thumb up your arse because 5 minutes ago 
you were bragging about how much money you saved by not having the spares 
handy.  :-)

Regards,
Andrew
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-03 Thread Philipp von Klitzing
Hi!

  BTW: And are you sure people wouldn't like to have voicemail? You'll need 
  to make them want that... ;- I guess you can even argue that voicemail 
  increases productivity.
 
 Since we share phones (at least the developers/non customer facing 
 people) voicemail wouldn't work too well because we'd get each others' 
 messages.  The pen  sticky pad method seems to be OK.  If everyone had 
 their own phone of course I could see it being quite useful (even a 
 selling point of VOIP).

Seems like you are still a bit stuck with old analog line = 1 phone 
thinking. With Asterisk you can easily make arrangements for two or three 
people sharing the same single phone to each have vm boxes of their own.

  I'd rather use X-Lite than MSN Messenger...
 
 The advantage that MSN Messenger has is that it's installed on every 
 machine (whether you like it or not!) so it's a zero effort (and zero 
 cost) fallback.

So also everyone has a headset plus a soundcard, I assume? ;-

Cheers, Philipp
 

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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-03 Thread Andrew Kohlsmith
On Thursday 03 June 2004 09:30, Michael Welter wrote:
 I would not recommend software RAID.  My experience is that, if there is
 a reboot resulting from an abnormal shutdown, Linux will recover
 (re-copy) the secondary drive.  This process pegs the processor
 (90-100%) and takes a lng time.  Of course, voice quality suffers
 when a processor is not available.

I've *never* pegged a processor with software RAID1 during reconstruction.  
I/O sure, but that is easily controled through /proc.  

Regards,
Andrew
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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-03 Thread Nik Martin

  BTW: And are you sure people wouldn't like to have 
 voicemail? You'll 
  need
  to make them want that... ;- I guess you can even argue 
 that voicemail 
  increases productivity.
 
 Since we share phones (at least the developers/non customer facing 
 people) voicemail wouldn't work too well because we'd get 
 each others' 
 messages.  The pen  sticky pad method seems to be OK.  If 
 everyone had 
 their own phone of course I could see it being quite useful (even a 
 selling point of VOIP).

Holy cow.  Everyone doesn't have their own phone?  What kind of tightwad are
you working for?  You are wasting FAR MORE money on lost productivity to
worry about the cost of a phone.  Your boss doesn't realize that, or do you
work in a sweatshop environment?



 
 
 For most theoretical uses of conference you call a meeting - face to 
 face communication can never really be replaced.

Another HUGE productivity killer.


I think your company has bigger issues than VOIP.


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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-03 Thread Tony Hoyle
Philipp von Klitzing wrote:
So also everyone has a headset plus a soundcard, I assume? ;-
Well everyone has a soundcard...  There's a load of headsets hanging 
around the office that get used at various times.

Tony
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-03 Thread Eric Wieling
On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 05:27, Tony Hoyle wrote:
 Eric Wieling wrote:
  Why are you even looking at VoIP?  Analog ports and phones are pretty
  cheap.  They are not pretty, but they are cheap and all the smarts are
  in the PBX.
 
 Free calls to the US, basically, since the leased line is dirt cheap to 
 run.  ie. the purpose of the exercise is to save money not spend it.
 
 I don't define the parameters, just work with them...  I happened to 
 mention I was interested in VOIP at the wrong moment and got landed with 
 the task.  TBH for what they need they could save a bundle by routing 
 the calls through a cheap analogue telco (eg. call18866) and forgetting 
 VOIP for a few years until it becomes commodity hardware.

I should have said Why are you looking at VoIP for the phones?.  Our
largest Asterisk installation (12 phones) uses analog phones and uses
IAX2 to route calls that go to other offices.

We have not found any VoIP phones with the features we want at a price
point we are happy with.  We have like the Zultys ZIP 2, it's a good
extremely basic phone for use in waiting rooms, etc.  No LCD, no switch
port, etc.  Costs about US$100.  We like the new Uniden UIP200 as a
slight step up from the ZIP 2.  The UIP200 has an alphanum LCD, 8
programmable buttons, headset jack, speakerphone, two ethernet ports
(switched).  Costs $120.  It looks like it will be a good phone for
kitchen, NOC, etc use.  We are still testing the UIP200.  Neither of
these phones have more than one call appearance and so would not be
useful for us as a desk phone.


-- 
  Eric Wieling * BTEL Consulting * 504-899-1387 x2111
In a related story, the IRS has recently ruled that the cost of Windows
upgrades can NOT be deducted as a gambling loss.

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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-03 Thread Tony Hoyle
Nik Martin wrote:
Holy cow.  Everyone doesn't have their own phone?  What kind of tightwad are
you working for?  You are wasting FAR MORE money on lost productivity to
worry about the cost of a phone.  Your boss doesn't realize that, or do you
work in a sweatshop environment?
Putting a senior developer on researching phones for a fortnight is 
probably losing them far more money than just paying someone to 
implement a working system... however it's different budgets, therefore 
doesn't show up on the balance sheet.

OTOH we don't need a phone each.  Mostly they just stand idle anyway. 
One between two or three people is enough.

I think your company has bigger issues than VOIP.
Yes but they're not my problem... (Losing 2.5 days a week on meetings 
then holding another meeting to discuss why we're behind on all the 
deadlines is either tragic or funny depending on how you look at it). 
All companies seem to suffer more or less from bad management - there's 
not much that those of us on the coalface can do about it.

Tony
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-03 Thread Stuart Grimshaw
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 14:28:33 +0100, Tony Hoyle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Since we share phones (at least the developers/non customer facing  
people) voicemail wouldn't work too well because we'd get each others'  
messages.  The pen  sticky pad method seems to be OK.  If everyone had  
their own phone of course I could see it being quite useful (even a  
selling point of VOIP).
You could always give everyone their own extension #  have several dial  
the same phone, and set up the voicemail to mail the message out as a wav  
file, to tidy their voicemail each person would just dial their voicemail  
number.

--
-S
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-03 Thread Andrew Kohlsmith
On Thursday 03 June 2004 11:42, Tony Hoyle wrote:
 Yes but they're not my problem... (Losing 2.5 days a week on meetings
 then holding another meeting to discuss why we're behind on all the
 deadlines is either tragic or funny depending on how you look at it).
 All companies seem to suffer more or less from bad management - there's
 not much that those of us on the coalface can do about it.

Ahh so you have metameetings too, then.  :-)

-A.
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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-02 Thread Sergio Serrano
I know that way, but some person ask for me for first way to do
transfers.
srsergio


-Mensaje original-
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de Stephen R.
Besch
Enviado el: miércoles, 02 de junio de 2004 15:37
Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Asunto: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone


Sergio Serrano wrote:
 Hi all, I try to do next transfer:
   A person contact with me, I would like transfer to other person
in 
 next manner. I call to other person and when I say who wants talk with

 him I hangup phones an call is redirect automatically to other
 person:
 
   1. call to me
   2. Hold the call and call to other person.
   3. I say Anyone want talk to you, OK, thanks,
   4. I hangup and first person is directly redirect to second
person?
 
 It is possible with asterisk and budgetone phones?
 
Sergio,

Not as far as I know, at least not exactly the way you have outlined it.

Try this:

1. call comes to you
2. You hold the call and call other person.
3. You say Someone wants to talk to you, OK, thanks
3a. Other person then hangs up.
3b. You flash back to the original caller
3c. You tell them that you are transferring the call
3d. You transfer the call using the transfer feature on the
phone
4. You hangup and first person is transferred to other
  person?

Stephen R. Besch ___
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-02 Thread Tony Hoyle
Stephen R. Besch wrote:
Not as far as I know, at least not exactly the way you have outlined it. 
Try this:

 1. call comes to you
2. You hold the call and call other person.
 3. You say Someone wants to talk to you, OK, thanks
3a. Other person then hangs up.
3b. You flash back to the original caller
3c. You tell them that you are transferring the call
3d. You transfer the call using the transfer feature on the phone
 4. You hangup and first person is transferred to other
 person?
Ugh.  So Asterisk doesn't handle transfer?
Every company phone system I've ever used has not required 3a-3d.  It 
looks like a real hack to do so.

It anyone working on implementing this?
Tony
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-02 Thread Eric Wieling
On Wed, 2004-06-02 at 09:44, Tony Hoyle wrote:
  
 Ugh.  So Asterisk doesn't handle transfer?
 
 Every company phone system I've ever used has not required 3a-3d.  It 
 looks like a real hack to do so.
 
 It anyone working on implementing this?

As far as I can tell it's a limitation of the phone, not of Asterisk. 
Most phones seem to implement the type of transfer you are wanting to do
as a special form of a 3-way call.  The phone you have doesn't support
3-way calls as documented on:
http://www.grandstream.com/Product_Spec.pdf

Other IP phones like the Cisco DO support 3-way calling and support
supervised/consultative transfers (which is the term for what you want
to do)

-- 
  Eric Wieling * BTEL Consulting * 504-899-1387 x2111
In a related story, the IRS has recently ruled that the cost of Windows
upgrades can NOT be deducted as a gambling loss.

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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-02 Thread John Fraizer
Tony Hoyle wrote:
Stephen R. Besch wrote:
Not as far as I know, at least not exactly the way you have outlined 
it. Try this:

 1. call comes to you
2. You hold the call and call other person.
 3. You say Someone wants to talk to you, OK, thanks
3a. Other person then hangs up.
3b. You flash back to the original caller
3c. You tell them that you are transferring the call
3d. You transfer the call using the transfer feature on the phone
 4. You hangup and first person is transferred to other
 person?
Ugh.  So Asterisk doesn't handle transfer?
Every company phone system I've ever used has not required 3a-3d.  It 
looks like a real hack to do so.

It anyone working on implementing this?
Tony
Asterisk handles transfer just fine.  It's the P-O-S Grandstreams that 
don't.

John
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-02 Thread Tony Hoyle
John Fraizer wrote:
Asterisk handles transfer just fine.  It's the P-O-S Grandstreams that 
don't.

Even this analogue phone that's on my desk handles this... it's not 
normally a function of the phone, but of the PBX.

How do companies that use asterisk handle incoming support calls?? I'm 
genuinely surprised anyone can survive without this feature.

Tony
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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-02 Thread Sergio Serrano
I have just to talk with Grandstream and they say to me that they ar
working in 3-way conferencing for BT-100 series. I hope they have FW
soon. One question more? How can I do parking call with Budgetone.
Before # works fine, but Now it doesn't work. 

-Mensaje original-
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de John Fraizer
Enviado el: miércoles, 02 de junio de 2004 19:29
Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Asunto: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone


Tony Hoyle wrote:

 Stephen R. Besch wrote:
 

 Not as far as I know, at least not exactly the way you have outlined
 it. Try this:

  1. call comes to you
 2. You hold the call and call other person.
  3. You say Someone wants to talk to you, OK, thanks
 3a. Other person then hangs up.
 3b. You flash back to the original caller
 3c. You tell them that you are transferring the call
 3d. You transfer the call using the transfer feature on the phone
  4. You hangup and first person is transferred to other  person?

 Ugh.  So Asterisk doesn't handle transfer?
 
 Every company phone system I've ever used has not required 3a-3d.  It
 looks like a real hack to do so.
 
 It anyone working on implementing this?
 
 Tony
 

Asterisk handles transfer just fine.  It's the P-O-S Grandstreams that 
don't.

John
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-02 Thread Eric Wieling
On Wed, 2004-06-02 at 12:52, Tony Hoyle wrote: 
 Even this analogue phone that's on my desk handles this... it's not 
 normally a function of the phone, but of the PBX.
 
 How do companies that use asterisk handle incoming support calls?? I'm 
 genuinely surprised anyone can survive without this feature.

They don't use Grandstream phones or they work around the issue if they
do use Grandstream phones.  In the analog world everything is handled by
the PBX.  In the SIP world most things are handled by the phone.

-- 
  Eric Wieling * BTEL Consulting * 504-899-1387 x2111
In a related story, the IRS has recently ruled that the cost of Windows
upgrades can NOT be deducted as a gambling loss.

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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-02 Thread John Fraizer
Tony Hoyle wrote:
John Fraizer wrote:
Asterisk handles transfer just fine.  It's the P-O-S Grandstreams that 
don't.

Even this analogue phone that's on my desk handles this... it's not 
normally a function of the phone, but of the PBX.

How do companies that use asterisk handle incoming support calls?? I'm 
genuinely surprised anyone can survive without this feature.

Tony
They don't use Piece-of-S%#^ Grandstream phones? Like I said, this is a 
problem with the PHONE and not with Asterisk.  And your analog phone on 
your desk has to be able to TELL the PBX you want to transfer a call. 
The PBX doesn't just read it's mind.  The same goes for VOIP phones.  If 
it doesn't have a way to signal that you want to transfer the call, it 
can't do it.  It's just that simple.

So, in short: Buy a cheap phone, get cheap results.
Oh, and if you like your Grandstream, don't ever handle, let alone USE a 
Cisco phone.  You'll be ruined for life if you do.  My grandstream is 
now a toy phone for my 1 y/o son.  It never was much more than a toy 
to begin with.

John
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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-02 Thread Eric Wieling
On Wed, 2004-06-02 at 13:03, Sergio Serrano wrote:
 I have just to talk with Grandstream and they say to me that they ar
 working in 3-way conferencing for BT-100 series. I hope they have FW
 soon. One question more? How can I do parking call with Budgetone.
 Before # works fine, but Now it doesn't work. 

show application dial on the Asterisk console.  Pay attention to the
t and T options to enable # transfers.

-- 
  Eric Wieling * BTEL Consulting * 504-899-1387 x2111
In a related story, the IRS has recently ruled that the cost of Windows
upgrades can NOT be deducted as a gambling loss.

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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-02 Thread Aaron J. Angel
Tony Hoyle wrote:

 Stephen R. Besch wrote:
  
  Not as far as I know, at least not exactly the way you have 
 outlined it. 
  Try this:
  
   1. call comes to you
  2. You hold the call and call other person.
   3. You say Someone wants to talk to you, OK, thanks
  3a. Other person then hangs up.
  3b. You flash back to the original caller
  3c. You tell them that you are transferring the call
  3d. You transfer the call using the transfer feature on 
 the phone
   4. You hangup and first person is transferred to other  person?
  
 Ugh.  So Asterisk doesn't handle transfer?
 
 Every company phone system I've ever used has not required 
 3a-3d.  It looks like a real hack to do so.

It's called consultative transfer, as opposed to blind transfer.  There are
quite a few commercial softphones that claim to support it, but I'm not sure
if any hardphones support it.  It can be done through the Asterisk manager
interface, too; WAMi can do it for sure.  I'm sure of other manager apps
that can also.

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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-02 Thread Tony Hoyle
John Fraizer wrote:
your desk has to be able to TELL the PBX you want to transfer a call. 
No it doesn't there's a universal (?) standard for this - hit recall, dial new 
number.  Heck it even works on PSTN lines if you pay for the right services.

So, in short: Buy a cheap phone, get cheap results.
Gransteams are *not* cheap.  They're 2-3 times more expensive than analog phones.
I'm investigating VOIP for my boss (who would rather train everyone on MSN 
Messenger but some people want a 'real' phone to talk with).  If I were to 
spec anything more expensive than a Granstream it'd blow out the entire 
upgrade budget just on the phones!  However I'm currently looking at the 
feasability of keeping the analog system and having some kind of 
analog/digital interface (if it can be done for less than £10/line then that's 
the answer).

Tony
--
Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.
Tony Hoyle [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Key ID: 104D/4F4B6917 2003-09-13
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-02 Thread Adam Goryachev
On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 10:21, Tony Hoyle wrote:
 John Fraizer wrote:
  your desk has to be able to TELL the PBX you want to transfer a call. 
 
 No it doesn't there's a universal (?) standard for this - hit recall, dial new 
 number.  Heck it even works on PSTN lines if you pay for the right services.

Right, so the *method* the analog phone uses to TELL the PBX to transfer
the call/start a conference/MoH/whatever is by pressing recall, dialling
new number.

The smarts are in the PBX not the phone. Though the phone DOES need a
way to tell the PBX what it wants to do. The phone is just the interface
(like the keyboard on your PC), but the PBX (CPU) is what really does
the work

  So, in short: Buy a cheap phone, get cheap results.
 
 Gransteams are *not* cheap.  They're 2-3 times more expensive than analog phones.

Well, actually they are. Sure, for $20 you can buy an analog phone, for
$150 you can buy a grandstream, big difference. However, for a PBX class
telephone, you are looking at prices  $500 per handset

You need to compare apples with apples

Sure, a residential phone service from your telco includes some support
for some of these things (if your telco is progressive enough, and you
pay enough money) but it will never suffice as a replacement for your
own asterisk PBX

In any case, asterisk *CAN* use standard analog phones and support these
features. In fact, EVERY feature is available when using analog phones,
this is the easiest, best supported setup for asterisk. Of course, the
quad fxs cards, or the T1 ports plus channel bank do increase the cost
anyway

 I'm investigating VOIP for my boss (who would rather train everyone on MSN 
 Messenger but some people want a 'real' phone to talk with).  If I were to 
 spec anything more expensive than a Granstream it'd blow out the entire 
 upgrade budget just on the phones!  However I'm currently looking at the 
 feasability of keeping the analog system and having some kind of 
 analog/digital interface (if it can be done for less than 10/line then that's 
 the answer).

If you have a problem with the grandstream product, which I think
everyone acknowledges as being the cheapest hardware VoIP phone
currently on the market (someone please correct me if I am wrong), then
perhaps you should tell them that even though they have the cheapest
product on the market, they should also have the most features. Somehow,
I think while they will try to add these features over time, they will
laugh at you

Price, Features, Reliability.
Pick any two... 

Adapted from:
Price, Speed, Reliability.
Pick any two (regarding internet connectivity)

Finally, someone mentioned that Grandstream are adding this feature to
their phones, which is nice. So perhaps you just need to be patient

Or buy lots of their phones so they can pay for further development.

Regards,
Adam

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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-02 Thread Tony Hoyle
Adam Goryachev wrote:
The smarts are in the PBX not the phone. Though the phone DOES need a
way to tell the PBX what it wants to do. The phone is just the interface
(like the keyboard on your PC), but the PBX (CPU) is what really does
the work
That was the point I started with...
  Well, actually they are. Sure, for $20 you can buy an analog phone, for
$150 you can buy a grandstream, big difference. However, for a PBX class
telephone, you are looking at prices  $500 per handset
No idea what you mean by PBX class telephone but if anyone at our company 
spent $500 on a phone they'd probably be fired (unless it was the boss).

Our desktop phones were done as a package deal from the building owner (who 
also runs the existing PBX) for almost nothing.

If you have a problem with the grandstream product, which I think
everyone acknowledges as being the cheapest hardware VoIP phone
currently on the market (someone please correct me if I am wrong), then
perhaps you should tell them that even though they have the cheapest
product on the market, they should also have the most features. Somehow,
I think while they will try to add these features over time, they will
laugh at you
All the company would want a phone to do is:
1. Make calls.
2. Receive calls.
Just a straight replacement of the cheap phones that everyone gets with one 
that has a cat5 socket on the back, does DHCP and auto configures itself. 
Nothing flashy.  It doesn't need an LCD display with the time on it, or a big 
flashing 'message' button.  Just a phone - preferably for no more cost than an 
analogue phone.

The rest of the PBX stuff isn't needed (except *00# for call pickup, which 
gets used a lot).

If I can't spec out a system which is like that then the project will be 
shelved - which I suspect is precisely what my boss wants to happen (he's also 
the main advocate of the MSN Messenger solution).  Corporate politics is like 
that...

The advantage is I got an excuse to play with Asterisk/VOIP at home (have a 
Granstream and there's a Sipura coming [there was some talk of using sipuras 
for those people that need them rather than using a digital PBX]).  I'll have 
to use them now I've spent so much time/money on them

For myself I'd love to play with a Cisco but with the 7960 going for 600 a 
throw I'm not in the market for spending that much...

Tony
--
Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.
Tony Hoyle [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Key ID: 104D/4F4B6917 2003-09-13
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-02 Thread Adam Goryachev
On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 11:40, Tony Hoyle wrote:
 Adam Goryachev wrote:
  Well, actually they are. Sure, for $20 you can buy an analog phone, for
  $150 you can buy a grandstream, big difference. However, for a PBX class
  telephone, you are looking at prices  $500 per handset
 
 No idea what you mean by PBX class telephone but if anyone at our company 
 spent $500 on a phone they'd probably be fired (unless it was the boss).

ie, new phones from NEC or other proprietary phone systems...

 Our desktop phones were done as a package deal from the building owner (who 
 also runs the existing PBX) for almost nothing.

Probably they make money in other ways, eg, in renting you the office
space, or from re-billing your phone calls, etc...

 All the company would want a phone to do is:
 
 1. Make calls.
 2. Receive calls.

Plus consultative transfer calls
Plus speaker phone
Plus conferencing
Plus call parking
Plus music on hold
Plus ...

I don't think you have a complete list of requirements there...

 Just a straight replacement of the cheap phones that everyone gets with one 
 that has a cat5 socket on the back, does DHCP and auto configures itself. 
 Nothing flashy.  It doesn't need an LCD display with the time on it, or a big 
 flashing 'message' button.  Just a phone - preferably for no more cost than an 
 analogue phone.

Would be nice, but I suspect it will be another year or two before we
get there. It is all about volume, and today, there isn't enough volume
to cause the price to reduce by that much... (AFAIK)...

 The rest of the PBX stuff isn't needed (except *00# for call pickup, which 
 gets used a lot).

Try *8 instead on Asterisk systems

 If I can't spec out a system which is like that then the project will be 
 shelved - which I suspect is precisely what my boss wants to happen (he's also 
 the main advocate of the MSN Messenger solution).  Corporate politics is like 
 that...

If *you* want to use asterisk, then I suggest you look at what Asterisk
can provide that MSN Messenger (without asterisk) can't provide. Then if
there is a business case for wanting those features, your job is 80%
complete. If you really want to use a hard VoIP phone with asterisk
instead of MSN Messenger with asterisk, then again, find the business
case that the VoIP hardphone can provide the MSN doesn't. IMHO, I like
to allow the other person to ponder the peculiarities and reliability of
their MS Windows based PC. Whether software or hardware, I figure a VoIP
phone should be significantly more reliable than a pc soft phone. What
about when you try to open a large file/db/something while on a call (to
look up the required information) and your call 'drops' out for a few
seconds... etc...

 The advantage is I got an excuse to play with Asterisk/VOIP at home (have a 
 Granstream and there's a Sipura coming [there was some talk of using sipuras 
 for those people that need them rather than using a digital PBX]).  I'll have 
 to use them now I've spent so much time/money on them

Congrats...

 For myself I'd love to play with a Cisco but with the 7960 going for 600 a 
 throw I'm not in the market for spending that much...

I am in the same boat. I'm sure one day though, I will splurge on a
cisco, and will probably never again recommend anything else. However,
until then, I will probably not be able to 'see' the difference...

BTW: I don't see why MSN Messenger precludes asterisk... but either way,
I suppose all this is kinda off-topic and just adding noise 

Regards,
Adam

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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-02 Thread Nik Martin

Tony Hoyle wrote:
No idea what you mean by PBX class telephone but if anyone at our 
company spent $500 on a phone they'd probably be fired (unless it was 
the boss).

Our desktop phones were done as a package deal from the building owner 
(who also runs the existing PBX) for almost nothing.



All the company would want a phone to do is:
1. Make calls.
2. Receive calls.
Just a straight replacement of the cheap phones that everyone gets with 
one that has a cat5 socket on the back, does DHCP and auto configures 
itself. Nothing flashy.  It doesn't need an LCD display with the time on 
it, or a big flashing 'message' button.  Just a phone - preferably for 
no more cost than an analogue phone.

You really should be using analog phones with asterisk.  You'll be a 
hero to your boss, because the phones wont cost a pile.  All you need to 
add is a channel bank for the analog phones, and asterisk.  There is a 
reason that cisco 7960's cost whet they do:  features and performance. 
If you just need analog features, go with analog phones.

Nik
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-02 Thread Nik Martin
Oh and you need a fine digium card to interface with the channel bank.
Nik
Nik Martin wrote:

Tony Hoyle wrote:
No idea what you mean by PBX class telephone but if anyone at our 
company spent $500 on a phone they'd probably be fired (unless it was 
the boss).

Our desktop phones were done as a package deal from the building owner 
(who also runs the existing PBX) for almost nothing.



All the company would want a phone to do is:
1. Make calls.
2. Receive calls.
Just a straight replacement of the cheap phones that everyone gets 
with one that has a cat5 socket on the back, does DHCP and auto 
configures itself. Nothing flashy.  It doesn't need an LCD display 
with the time on it, or a big flashing 'message' button.  Just a phone 
- preferably for no more cost than an analogue phone.

You really should be using analog phones with asterisk.  You'll be a 
hero to your boss, because the phones wont cost a pile.  All you need to 
add is a channel bank for the analog phones, and asterisk.  There is a 
reason that cisco 7960's cost whet they do:  features and performance. 
If you just need analog features, go with analog phones.

Nik
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-02 Thread Tony Hoyle
Adam Goryachev wrote:
Plus consultative transfer calls
Well yes... pbx's job though (usually, although apparently not always...).
Plus speaker phone
No allowed to use them as they disturb people working.
Plus conferencing
We have a conferencing phone which is a huge triangular thing with lots 
of speakers on it.  Can't see the point of putting that functionality on 
a desktop phone.

Plus call parking
Never completely understood what that was...  We don't even have hold at 
the moment so nobody will miss it.  We have a mute button for that purpose.

Plus music on hold
Don't have that now (no hold, see above).
I don't think you have a complete list of requirements there...
A 10 number memory would be nice (some of the better phones have a row 
of buttons down the side for frequently used numbers... ).  Maybe there 
are some that know how to do other things (I don't know everything that 
goes on) but the phones don't natively support any of it, and AFAIK 
nobody actually knows how to use the PBX (!).

Would be nice, but I suspect it will be another year or two before we
get there. It is all about volume, and today, there isn't enough volume
to cause the price to reduce by that much... (AFAIK)...
I can't help feeling that VOIP will get there one day but isn't there 
yet.  When I can walk down the high street and pick one up then it'll be 
definately 'there' but today virtually nobody's heard of it.

Try *8 instead on Asterisk systems
I'll modify the code if asterisk gets used.
If *you* want to use asterisk, then I suggest you look at what Asterisk
Me, I just like tinkering with new stuff.  Asterisk is all that's 
available in my price range for installing at home :)

One option is cheap PC/Asterisk connected in some way to the analogue 
system which helps if I know how to configure it etc. as I'll probably 
end up supporting it (our MCSE won't touch anything unless there's a 
control panel applet for it).  OTOH if I say to go for a proprietary 
system I don't have to suport that.. decisions :)

. instead of MSN Messenger with asterisk, then again, find the business
case that the VoIP hardphone can provide the MSN doesn't. IMHO, I like
Mostly I think it's about the 'physical' thing.  I'm happy with 
messenger, but some won't use it as they don't like headphones, etc. 
They want to dial a number on a real phone.

The business case is about getting the phone bill down... the bean 
counters are screaming that it's a significant drain on the business and 
there's pressure to do something about it (which gets pushed down to the 
little guys like me).

to allow the other person to ponder the peculiarities and reliability of
their MS Windows based PC. Whether software or hardware, I figure a VoIP
phone should be significantly more reliable than a pc soft phone. What
about when you try to open a large file/db/something while on a call (to
look up the required information) and your call 'drops' out for a few
seconds... etc...
I don't think our version of Messenger (4.7.2009) will talk to asterisk. 
 It has the 'accounts' screen but when you try to login it only has the 
one entry box for server not the 3 inc. username/password that other 
sites mention... as I can't enter the details the connection fails 
immediately.  I haven't tried very hard though...  kind of defeats the 
object connecting messenger to asterisk.

BTW: I don't see why MSN Messenger precludes asterisk... but either way,
I suppose all this is kinda off-topic and just adding noise 
AFAIK asterisk can't talk directly to the MSN servers, or have I missed 
that???

Tony
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-02 Thread Tony Hoyle
Nik Martin wrote:

You really should be using analog phones with asterisk.  You'll be a 
hero to your boss, because the phones wont cost a pile.  All you need to 
Since we already have the phones, they won't cost anything :)
add is a channel bank for the analog phones, and asterisk.  There is a 
reason that cisco 7960's cost whet they do:  features and performance. 
If you just need analog features, go with analog phones.
Probably a good idea.  Just need to work out how much the channel bank 
costs (~60 phones at the moment, probably best to allow for ~100).

If I can spec out a few options that do the 'right stuff' then at least 
I did my bit...

Tony
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-02 Thread Andrew Kohlsmith
On Wednesday 02 June 2004 23:13, Andrew Kohlsmith wrote:
 redundant power.  Supermicro makes such a system, I think 1 proc, 512M ECC
 RAM and dual 9G drives was just under USD$1200.

Oh yeah -- if you're going to do the TE405P with that supermicro system you're 
gonna have to saw up the card to get it to fit into a 3.3V PCI slot -- the 
damned motherboard has PCI-X and PCI3.3 but no PCI5, and the TE405P really is 
a universal card.  :-)  

You can always use the TE400P but then you're screwed if you have to put it in 
a PC that's handy (think the motherboard frying) -- it's a 3.3V only card and 
99% of the PCs out there are 5V PCI only.  :-)

Regards,
Andrew
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Re: Transfer with Budgetone

2004-06-02 Thread Brian Cuthie
Adam Goryachev wrote:
On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 11:40, Tony Hoyle wrote:
 

Adam Goryachev wrote:
   

Well, actually they are. Sure, for $20 you can buy an analog phone, for
$150 you can buy a grandstream, big difference. However, for a PBX class
telephone, you are looking at prices  $500 per handset
 

No idea what you mean by PBX class telephone but if anyone at our company 
spent $500 on a phone they'd probably be fired (unless it was the boss).
   

ie, new phones from NEC or other proprietary phone systems...
 

Where in the world are you buying your phones?  New phones for any PBX 
(Nortel, Lucent, Toshiba, etc.) range from $100 to $350 for all but the 
most esoteric models.

-brian
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