Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
2016-04-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : Green Gables Fan via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? Hello all,I have read through some of these posts, and a couple of points stood out from all the rest.First of all, it seems that people are posting heavily biased and subjective opinions about why this person favours a particular screen reader, when they should have considered how their opinions would be met by others at large.As an example, my preferred screen reader is NvDA. I will explain why I prefer that screen reader over any commercial software.NVDA has a lot of the features that are found in JAWS. It is small and compact, and doesn't use a myriad of drivers and other components, unlike JAWS and other screen readers. Plus, it is free.This last part was made with impoverished people in mind. But here's where and a few other beliefs come into play.I have noticed that a sighted person could simply purchase a computer and start using it out of the box. Not so for blind folks. That is, until Narrator came along in Windows 2000, and it is still not the best screen reader.When I first started using a Mac, I heard that VoiceOver already came with all of their devices, so I was really delighted to know that I could use my computer straight out of the box, like any other person.My belief is that no blind person should have to spend a large sum of money to use a computer, compared to everyone else in the sighted community. Someone may object and say that an agency could pay for the screen reader, but I would still disagree, because no such entities should have to pay twice the price of a computer plus a commercial screen reader.Therefore, these are the reason I choose not to use a commercial screen reader.Having said that, I tried to include as many facts based on previous experience. I have used NVDA for countless numbers of years now, and so far, I have not had any major issues with it.So, if you want to argue a political topic in a less-emotional method, my recommendation would simpl y be to make your points as objective as possible. It is when people are very inflammatory with such things that others feel the need to attack that person for having a shallow mind. That is when people need to defend their territory. So, try to make arguments based on impartiality. It is not easy, as humans are made to be extremely opinionated, but it can be overcome. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=257115#p257115 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? I'm an NVDA user for several years and have no intention to go back to JFW. However, it's ok with me if someone likes to use JFW over NVDA. I was personally more and more disappointed with direction in wich JFW is going, especially with issues such as video intercept install failure, crashing of certain SAPI5 synthesizers and problems with some localized variants of Microsoft Office, and I'm standing behind my words, since that was my experience with JFW. I'm glad if people have enough money to pay for JFW and later upgrades, but in my case, no thanks! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=257080#p257080 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? Why is this thread even in existence, that's my question! Jesus. OK, I'll put it right here, I don't like jaws, I used to use it when I knew nothing else, but NVDA came along and changed things. I'll tell people it too, that I think FS hasn't been innovating recently. Does that mean that jaws has no good features, no. I just don't like the thing, I much prefer NVDA. That does not mean that, given that I've posted this somewhere, I'm attacking the person behind the screen, as it were. And I think this mostly the case whenever someone else posts something. I think this post is an emotional, knee-jerk action to something that never should have gotten to you in the first place, Figment. Also, this sort of counter the troll thing, this just isn't a good idea. It will bring out the bad in people that got it in them in the first place. One thing you don't give a troll is more attention because they feed on it. So, I think this topic is a waste of space, not that there aren't good things said here, but it shouldn't have been started in the first place. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=257043#p257043 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? @figment: I have to agree with everyone else here, this stuff is not disrespecting other members. It's more about the companies that create the tech and how some people think that they perhaps might need to rethink their strategies, perhaps, in people's opinions, these companies have fallen behind. Of course, people will poke some fun at them as a result. I'm a windows user and I still poke fun at, and sometimes even question, Microsoft. Now, if someone was personally going after you and getting annoyed at you for using Jaws, then we'd step in. But as it's more about the company itself, and actually not about you as a forum member, it becomes more of an opinion and not an outright attack. The opinion promotes discussion in the end.Believe me when I say, I've been a part of the mainstream internet and if you think this stuff is bad, well, the rest of the net can be much worse at times. I agree that this forum is definitely one of the more friendl ier ones around. I've seen stuff on the mainstream net that makes my blood boil. I wouldn't consider this corner of the net to be part of that. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=257020#p257020 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? @figment: I have to agree with everyone else here, this stuff is not disrespecting other members. It's more about the companies that create the tech and how some people think that they perhaps might need to rethink their strategies, perhaps, in people's opinions, they have fallen behind. Of course, people will poke some fun at these companies as a result. Now, if someone was personally going after you and getting annoyed at you for using Jaws, then we'd step in. But as it's more about the company itself, and actually not about you as a forum member, then there's no point.Believe me when I say, I've been a part of the mainstream internet and if you think this stuff is bad, you will not be able to handle what goes on in regards to the rest of the net, and I agree that this forum is definitely one of the more friendlier ones around. I've seen stuff on the mainstream net that makes my blood boil. I wouldn't consider this corner of the net to be part of that. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=257020#p257020 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? The "Internet of things" actually refers to Internet-connected embedded devices, wasn't sure if you used it deliberately but just wanted to point that out . URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=257019#p257019 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? @figment,With all do respect, I'd like to sadly point out that it would be easy enough for me to find posts written by you that I probably misinterpreted as flaming nonsense, just as I'm sure you could easily say about me and as you have clearly shown you have felt about other people. For whatever it's worth, let me assure you that I don't care much for arguing. Inteligent debate and civil discussion are absolutely exhilarating and delightful. There's this little thing called anonymity, however, which people tend to hide behind on a regular basis on this platform many of us refer to as the internet of things nowadays, which makes trolling a greater possibility overall. That being the case, unless I know a person is generally helpful and provides sound advice, I hardly give anything they have to say much of a listen, and I certainly don't let such people affect how I feel about a community, forum, etc. This place has seen its fair share of heated fighting over some rather controversial subjects; I can take you to topics in which things truly went way out of proportion and all sorts of insanity and hateful nonsense spewed forth over much more trivial things than accessibility. Feelings have been hurt, developers have come and gone, members have been banned, but overall, this forum is friendlier than any other I've been a part of. I moderated it once and I don't regret it... My regret lies in the fact that as I'm losing hearing along the way I no longer feel that I am fit to provide information, articles, entries or otherwise on audio games, thus felt the task should be deligated to someone else and stepped away from my duty. Going through tough times also made me lose confidence in my judgment, but I suppose that's another story for a different time. I'll simply conclude by saying that, unless you're talking to me face to face, on the phone, on my TeamTalk server, reading my twitter, messaging me on skype or via text, or I have clearly indicated in some other form be it here or elsewhere, it's really not personal. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=257016#p257016 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? @figment, I'm not sure about that calculation... where did you get that sum? If I paid the same $120 to NVDA access and it was $15 per upgrade, I'd actually get six updates including a major version one. But hypothesis aside, I wasn't intending to argue with you, just point out the fact that $120 assuming you want to keep using the program, plus the bass price of the program, could get me much the same and more if I spent that money on a mac and apple products, or a very, very high end pc with nvda. Just sharing a thought here, definitely no flaming intentions from me. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=257011#p257011 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? Oh, yes, Figment, that was my comment that you quoted. And, guess what? I had no intention of keeping it going after that. If I wanted to, I would have. It's called restraint. It's also called, as Assault Freak pointed out, poking a little fun.I wonder, since the thread was deleted shortly after that, if anything else was said that constitutes a flame in your eyes? It's interesting to see how much is read into every little thing that's said. There are a lot of things I could say right now out of sheer irritation about having my one tiny little comment blown so badly out of proportion, because, as you said in your first post to this topic, you'd like to see me, and whoever else you believe is bashing JAWS, get banned, but I'm going to follow my own advice from a few posts ago, take a giant step back, and see where this topic goes. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=257010#p257010 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? Hi,I think the thread shouldn't been deleted because there was a lot of useful information, and a slightly small, unintentional piece of flame war. But it hadn't started yet. In fact, since this flame/debate has started, I've seen even more provoking comments which could start a massive bloody internet war, however, I think nothing was too serious in that thread. Just out of my curiosity, I would like to know what version of firefox and jaws you are using because I am really curious why are you facing so many problems with firefox. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=257008#p257008 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? If it had been just Wanderer's post I would have left it alone, but immediately after his post by another member that said something like:Well, I was going to be nice, but since somebody else has already started ...From my point of view the flame war may not have started but it appeared to be headed that way.$120 really isn't all that much to pay for updates. That $120 buys two years of updates including two major version upgrades. If you paid NV Access $15 for each update to NVDA you'd be paying the same $120 for two years of updates and upgrades. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=257004#p257004 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? Quite frankly, just to chime in my own small two sense... that comment quoted in post 11 shouldn't've been taken as a bash at a screen reader... there are way more severe posts of that nature I could point to on this forum. I poke fun at JAWS all the time in similar ways... because quite frankly, to pay that much for updates really is rediculous. Agree with Wanderer, that sometimes internet comments get taken way, way too seriously... especially among this community. That comment, in a roundabout way, was in fact giving some information... pay for the updates and JAWs will be ok with Firefox. But then, I didn't follow that topic all that much when it was up, so this could all be just hot air as a result of early morning and my desire to join a discussion. hehe. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256997#p256997 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? And that, my fellow forumites, is what I call an apology. I hope post 16 settles that matter, or at least brings some closure, or sunset, or warm fuzzy feelings, or perhaps I'll just, buy myself a cake and enjoy it and pretend nothing happened here. Ah! Yes! Cookies! My wife has cookies! Methinks I'm outa here! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256924#p256924 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? So, just figured I should say something. The post being referred to here, and which apparently resulted in the creation of this thread was mine, and I apologize for the considerable offense it seems to have caused. As has been said it contributed in no way to the topic and may have been construed as rude. I'm not going to say much because what I would've had to say has pretty much been summed up nicely in posts 6 and 8. I merely meant the post as a jab at a piece of software which I have to use on occasion and which I have issues with. It was in no way intended as a personal attack, and I sincerely apologize if my admittedly not very constructive criticism of this software came across that way to you. I had no intention of causing a "flame war" (in quotes) and I frankly think it's a little ridiculous how seriously Internet comments are sometimes taken, creating terms like this. I made the post on impulse, fully expecting it to be ignored because as I said it was meant as nothing more than a little jab. Ironically, this thread, concerning that little post, is now nearly as big, if not bigger, than the discussion that was deleted. Peace. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256921#p256921 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? It does seem strange that each screen reader still has a "Favourite" browser. Having said this, I too am quite a JAWS fan (in spite of myself) and have had luck with all of the browsers, of which I am most taken by Chrome because I'm becoming rather tired of Mozilla's politics. On OS X, which is my primary environment (the one i'm in right now, and most times) I use Safari mostly but also Chrome. Firefox isn't accessible on OS X@Nocturnus: I've seen some of your threads around iTunes and Safari but haven't yet been caught up properly, which I hope to do any day now, maybe. Hopefully. If nothing else gets in the way. Meantime, feel free to just ask, and I'll get 'round to your questions when I find them. For your present question: if you enable the Develop menu in the menu bar, which you can do by opening Safari preferences, going to the Advanced tab, and then checking the box to "Enable Develop menu in menu bar", t hen you will find a simple toggle switch on the Develop menu for _javascript_ and Styles, which is just what you want for fighting back against the sludge purveyors. I also recommend you install AdBlock to filter the sewage out of the rendering path altogether, which can significantly reduce the number of times you have to navigate past elements. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256920#p256920 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? Now that my name has been brought up, I got to post. Hope no one minds. I was thinking about posting over in this topic, but the more I think about it, the better off things would be if I shut my mouth per say. As for the topic that got deleted, I must had miss the flame war that may had been starting up. I think that a lot of us don’t, at times, think about what we say before saying it. Add to that, it is so easy to post somewhere and not have to worry about paying the price for it. Think about what is said on twitter. As nice as this form is, it can take a few to make things hard for us all at times. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256918#p256918 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? Another variable that will continue to persist and which makes tackling this issue impossible, complicating it much further, is the huge age range. I don't know who the youngest member on this forum truly is, nor do I know who the oldest might be, but I'm willing to bet there is a ton of age difference in between, which doesn't present a problem for me personally. Sometimes, I have to remember that I am talking to both, people who are in some areas much more experienced than myself, as well as people who are just starting out on their adventures, as it were. Sebby and I, and other Apple users used to clash on many occasions over our choice of opperating systems, but we tried never to let it get personal; I'd like to think we did a good job of it and were always able to put our differences aside to come to some mutual understandings of where every party was coming from, and now I have a mac. At times, people truly do seem condescending wh en they are trying to present something, even if it is factual, partly perhaps because it isn't backed up with solid research, and partly because, as turtlepower points out in post 6, when you feel like you're on the losing side of a debate, it's easier to blame someone for being right and you not liking the idea that they're right, rather than admiting that you might just be wrong. For the record, I like to be proven wrong so that I can focus on being right. :dI sincerely hope I did at least contribute somewhat to the topic with my post, which was mostly inspired by the words in the title of the topic, "What a joke!" I expressed my concern that a topic of that nature might not get anywhere; no offense meant whatsoever. I also voiced my like for firefox over IE owing to the fact that I can easily disable _javascript_ without much effort... Indeed, I do wonder, a little off topic here, what version of JAWS you are using and which ve rsion of FF you tried, given that I am currently running JAWS 16 and FF 45.0.1 on occasion, particularly with Paypal which seems to have butchered its site for the kagillionth time, a combo I actually find works better than FF and NVDA, funnily enough. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256917#p256917 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? But I still fail to see why that one comment caused you to delete a topic that was full of otherwise useful information. If it had turned into an all-out flame war, which I seriously doubt it would have, but hey, anything is possible, the moderators could have taken care of it, even deleting all the offending posts without destroying a topic that didn't need to be blasted away.There are people out there who will tell you that something you like is bad, so neh neh. That's just human nature, as I said. The wise thing to do is to view it, and the person spewing it, as nothing more than a sad bundle of immaturity, then either have some fun testing them, or go on your merry way. the first option isn't exactly mature, either, but sometimes we all do stuff that isn't what most folks consider to be model adult behavior. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256916#p256916 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? But I still fail to see why that one comment caused you to delete a topic that was full of otherwise useful information. If it had turned into an all-out flame war, which I seriously doubt it would have, but hey, anything is possible, the moderators could have taken care of it, even deleting all the offending posts without destroying a topic that didn't need to be blasted away.There are people out there who will tell you that something you like is bad, so neh neh. That's just human nature, as I said. The wise thing to do is to view it, and the person spewing it, as nothing more than a sad bundle of immaturity, then either have some fun testing them, or go on your merry way. the first option isn't exactly mature, either, but sometimes we all do stuff that isn't exactly adult. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256916#p256916 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? If, as many of you did, posted about how one screen reader works better with Internet Explorer and that another worked best with Firefox, that's not a flame because no opinions are being put forth and that one screen reader doesn't work well with Firefox could actually be helpful information. Because I am a JAWS user, that information tells me not to fight with Firefox any longer and just stick with Internet Explorer.The offending message said something like:Oh and JAWS will only work with one version of Firefox unless you pay $120 for an SMA to get updates. LOL!There was nothing in that post that constructively added to the conversation. It was purely intended to offend and piss off JAWS users, nothing more. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd really prefer not to have to read this crap at all.It isn't just arguments about screen readers that is at the center of the compla int, though screen readers are often used to try and start the flame wars. Other types of assistive technology choices could be used. What is at the center of the complaint is the apparent need of a few people who are intolerant of other people's choices and who decide to use their intolerance to try to incite flame wars among the rest of us.I agree about deleting threads, that's why I very rarely use the feature. In this case my decision to use it was to try and avert a flame war. My topic for the thread wasn't important enough to risk that. There have been too many flame wars already. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256913#p256913 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? Hello.I'm confused, my post was about how NVDA works with Firefox and how I have been using NVDA for around 5 years now and in all that time I've used firefox.I read other peoples posts on that topic and don't see where the flaming started. I'll admit I didn't read all the posts in the thread so perhaps I missed it.Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a flame war when someone says, for example. My screen reader is better than yours and the other screen reader is terrible!I will always be an NVDA user but that doesn't mean I go crazy when someone talks about JAWS and its good points. I personally wouldn't pay for jaws now that NVDA exists but if people want to use JAWS I'm glad for them. may they get the best use out of there computers and laptops. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256910#p256910 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? In one of my posts, I laid out the facts--JAWS is designed to work best with Internet Explorer and NVDA's best Internet support comes with Firefox. This is not an opinion; this is well-known fact. When I write such posts, I leave my opinions out of it so that it should be impossible for my opinions to get in the way of your judgment. I was not blaming any screen reader; I was just showing their strengths over each other. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256907#p256907 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? @Figment, I agree it would have been best to leave the thread alive so others could see what you are talking about.I actually very much dislike the fact that this forum lets people delete entire threads full of other people's posts.In one case over 3000 posts disappeared because the original thread poster decided to delete it. 99% of the posts were not his.But I digress.I saw your thread about firefox, though I did not see the post that frustrated you enough to delete it.If memory serves your original post was extremely emotionally charged.The title was something like "Firefox accessible? What a Joke!"And your first post while having some good points, also had some statements that were obviously written while you were angry.None of the mature people on this forum like to see flame wars of any sort going on, but I have to say, when you start a thread with such emotional charge and negativity, do you really expect others, many of which are children or teenagers, to not respond with their own emotionally charged statements?In some sense you started a thread about bashing a particular browser, so it is not surprising that others jumped in to start bashing their favorite targets.Even in your first post you said that you had given up on Firefox and entirely removed it from your computer.So you obviously weren't looking for help, rather you were wanting to complain to the forum in general, or at best warn others off of a browser you hit some issues with.I myself have used Firefox everyday with few issues for the past 6 or so years.I hadn't tried to change the settings you were complaining about, but I do submit that many people do find Firefox to be accessible enough for their purposes.I also recall the first response was from CW, who had some good suggestions for how to access a large number of Firefox settings in an accessible way.It seemed t o me that the people responding with good advice or suggestions were even tiptoeing around the initial emotional charge of the thread.Please don't take my comments too hard.I have actually appreciated many of your comments on the forum as you well know, and I consider you to be a valuable member of the forum.And none of us are immune to making angry posts, I have done it myself and regretted it later.I just wanted to point out that the thread did not start out quite so innocently as one might say now that it is deleted.When you see a post that is going to start a flame war the best course of action is to report it to a moderator, or just ignore it.As adults on the forum it is important for us to set a good example for the younger members.I hope we can all (myself included) continue to become better at that. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256899#p256899 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? A few of us mentioned that using Jaws with Firefox was probably the reason for you having trouble. I also posted a small recording showing that those options could be reached with NVDA. I don't think any of us were trying to start any kind of flame war. We were trying to show you that in this instance, the blame.. doesn't fall on Firefox entirely like your first post in that topic implied. Of course there may have been another post to that thread that I didn't see before you deleted it trying to start something.With all that being said though, I agree with turtlepower17. I do not care which screen reader someone uses. However, if I know that a specific screen reader doesn't perform well in certain applications and someone asks about it, I will point it out; but pointing it out isn't an attempt to bash that particular screen reader. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256894#p256894 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? A few of us mentioned that using Jaws with Firefox was probably the reason for you having trouble. I also posted a small recording showing that those options could be reached with NVDA. I don't think any of us were trying to start any kind of flame war. We were trying to show you that in this instance, the blame.. doesn't fall on Firefox entirely like your first post in that topic implied. Of course there may have been another post to that thread that I didn't see before you deleted it trying to start something.With all that being said though, I agree with turtlepower17. I do not care which screen reader someone uses. However, if I know that a specific screen reader doesn't perform well in certain applications and someone asks about it, I will point it out; but me pointing it out isn't an attempt to bash that particular screen reader. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256894#p256894 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? A few of us mentioned that Jaws was probably the reason for you having trouble. I also posted a small recording showing that those options could be reached with NVDA. I don't think any of us were trying to start any kind of flame war. We were trying to show you that in this instance, the blame.. doesn't fall on Firefox entirely like your first post in that topic implied. Of course there may have been another post to that thread that I didn't see before you deleted it trying to start something.With all that being said though, I agree with turtlepower17. I do not care which screen reader someone uses. However, if I know that a specific screen reader doesn't perform well in certain applications and someone asks about it, I will point it out; but me pointing it out isn't an attempt to bash that particular screen reader. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256894#p256894 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? I think there are a few issues at play here.first and foremost, I've never understood why screen readers are like the politics of the blind community. In my opinion, it's ridiculous. There are good and bad points to each one, and whatever each person chooses to use is ultimately his or her decision.So, why does it affect people so much when these so-called "flame wars" get started? If someone is secure in knowing what screen reader works best for them, why the hurt feelings and defensiveness? I can understand when the topic is deeper, such as when a person is challenging someone's beliefs or political leanings. In lots of cases, these kinds of discussions can and do turn ugly very quickly. But...It's a computer. It connects us to the world at large, including this and other forums. I'm just trying to wrap my head around what makes a difference in opinion about a screen reader, of all things, so heated. Clearly, if you want to delve into it, each and every one of them has their technical flaws which can be sized up and compared. I feel that if someone brings personal attacks into it, they're doing so out of anger, perhaps feeling that their knowledge isn't stacking up against the "winning side's", thus they feel inferior. Notice how I put winning side in quotes, because the idea that there can be a winner and a loser in this arena is mind-boggling to me.But it really doesn't have to be that way, guys. Human nature dictates that this kind of thing will happen over and over again, but that doesn't mean that the forum needs to be more heavily moderated. It's fine the way it is.sure, if I saw people behaving viciously towards each other on a daily basis here, no matter what the topic was about, I'd agree with what you're saying. But I don't, so I won't call for blood.I think the bigger issue is that, in general, people are frien dlier on this forum than in many other online venues. There are a lot of bad apples out there, communities that are much darker and nastier than this one. this brings up two points. First, we hold higher expectations for our members' behavior, so the slightest snub can feel like a much bigger deal than it actually is when it happens. I know i've experienced that myself when I expressed an opinion that was met with dislike or challenge. I immediately became defensive, thinking that now i was a target, and would get the insults piled on, as has happened to me on other forums. But, when it didn't, and I had a chance to think beyond my knee-jerk reactions, sometimes I found i was wrong. Sometimes I found that my views simply weren't the same as others. And, sometimes, I let months go by without looking at a topic that I had taken part in, where I felt I had said something wrong, and when I came back to it later, I found I had been either overreacting, or that I had a t least been right not to keep arguing my points.I also found that people were willing to let me do this. on other forums and email lists, often so many personal attacks would be flying, and calls that if I didn't defend myself, I must be weak, wrong, etc. were piled on my head, that I felt I had to retaliate if only to make it stop. of course it never did, but that's a story for another day.my point in all of this is that this forum is different than others in a lot of ways. Stricter moderation is not in order for the forum at large; rather, moderation of your own emotional responses may be. I don't mean to call out the OP when I say this, either. I think lots of people can take this lesson to heart. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256888#p256888 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? I don't have any problem with people favoring their personal choices and telling others about them. I'd have never learned about NVDA otherwise. And after hearing about it, I did give it a try for a solid two weeks by which I mean that during the try JAWS was not installed, it was NVDA or Navigater or nothing. At the end of the two weeks, I decided that I preferred JAWS, now that doesn't mean I think NVDA is trash, far from it, I'm very impressed with what NV Access offers.Where I draw the line is when people feel that they have to interrupt other people's threads with messages that do nothing but put down screen readers or other assistive technology other than their favorite and or the people that use them. such messages don't contribute constructively to the thread's topic and honestly have no place there. If you want to tout your favorite assistive technology to others, create a separate thread to do it.Honestly, we, the visually impaired community, should be glad for every screen reader and other assistive technology that is available. Too often the sighted community leaves us with little or no choices, so we should be glad when there are plenty.When possible, we should be trying to help each other when we have questions or problems and reach out for assistance regardless of the assistive technology we choose to use. Not throwing stones at people asking for help just because we didn't choose the same assistive technology you chose. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256886#p256886 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? Saddly, those people exist anywhere you go. Find me a decent person, and I'll find you a hundred trolls. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256882#p256882 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? I'm not even as bothered by people who have the "my opinion is better than yours" mentality. What bothers me are the number of people who don't seem to have any idea what an "opinion" is! To them, their opinions are actually facts, and so they must be defended to the bitter end. Lol, those silly peoples. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256872#p256872 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Re: Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? Unfortunately, methinks you're going to have a tough time with this one. I don't know that having an oppinion on screen readers, browsers, applications and or operating systems is the problem so much as the fact that people tend to make it personal at times, which the forum FAQ clearly warns against, but when do people read anymore? The rules are fairly clear as well and easy enough to follow, but again, personality conflicts, "my oppinion is better than yours and thus more important" nonsense, and that doesn't even include how an oppinion might be interpreted by someone reading it with a screen reader and the coutnless synths and voices that exist. In the end, it really is up to the mods to decide what does and does not constitute a flamewar. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256870#p256870 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Another screen reader flame war? Seriously?
Another screen reader flame war? Seriously? A couple of days ago I posted a topic here that was basically a rant about Firefox's iffy accessibility. There were a number of replies with suggestions and some simply acknowledging that all browsers have accessibility issues of one sort or another. This was fine, a discussion about Firefox's accessibility problems had started, which was my intention.Then some one came along who had nothing to contribute, so instead of doing the right thing by not posting anything, they decided to post a flame about JAWS apparently hoping to start another screen reader flame war. I was annoyed, the last thing anyone here needed was another screen reader flame war, so I deleted the thread to be certain that one didn't start. In hind sight I realized that what I should have done was to report the post and hope that the moderators would choose to remove it.To put this problem to rest, I think the forum needs a rule that makes posting a message that is nothing but a n attempt to start a flame war a punishable offense. A suspension from the forum for a period of time. Then hopefully people will think twice about posting such messages. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=256862#p256862 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
