Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Excuse me for straying a little from the topic, but this dicussion reminds me of one I had on a forum run by a Canadian speaker manufacturer with a name starting with A. The concensus on that forum seems to be that because any modern amplifier has a flat frequency response, and inaudible harmonic distortion, than all amps sound the same. It doesn't matter how much they cost or the qauality of the components, they are all the same, except that some are louder. Amps don't 'sound', they amplify I was told. Clearly in the If you can't measure it, it doesn't exist camp. I suspect hundreds of amp manufacturers might have a problem with this concept. On reflection, perhaps I'm not as far off topic as I thought :) Shane -- swhite58 Clark Connect Linux file server-Various boxes with flashing lights-SB3-Zhaolu D3 DAC-NAD C320BEE-Usher S-520/Sennheiser headphones swhite58's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5038 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
CatBus;411236 Wrote: Bad example, you're right. String theory. Many Freudian/Jungian theories. Both at least started out as making up stuff that works out the way we like, and can't be tested. I understand string theory is on the cusp of being testable so I may retract that half. Admittedly I'm no big fan of either. But in their favor, they sure inspired some good science by others, even if they were suspect in their own right. The proponents of string theory were not subjectivists dreaming up something that other scientists dismissed. They were serious physicists working within the community of science and accepted as valid scientists by other physicists. All sorts of physicists have been working to find a grand unification theory relating gravity, the strong force and the weak force. Theorists propose a new theory that agrees with known experimental results AND predicts new experimental results. Experimentalists then perform experiments that can confirm the new predictions or not. I'll hold my tongue on Freud. CatBus;411236 Wrote: Honestly I think that's the best thing about subjectivists in my opinion. They ask the crazy off-the-wall questions that get things moving in a whole new direction. When it comes to providing answers, they're not so good, unfortunately. The point is that they don't try to verify what they claim. -- Listener Listener's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2508 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
GuyDebord;411196 Wrote: I know by fact that most of the components I own, once designed were voiced by ear(s) including my expensive cables. How does somebody voice a cable - what do they change to achieve the desired sound? How do you know for a fact that your cables were voiced? -- honestguv honestguv's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13734 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
honestguv wrote: How does somebody voice a cable - what do they change to achieve the desired sound? How do you know for a fact that your cables were voiced? Obviously, all cables that cost more than $200 meter are voiced. Intuitively obvious to the most naive observer. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
pfarrell;411268 Wrote: honestguv wrote: How does somebody voice a cable - what do they change to achieve the desired sound? How do you know for a fact that your cables were voiced? Obviously, all cables that cost more than $200 meter are voiced. Intuitively obvious to the most naive observer. I paid far less for my cables so they only hum. bill -- Listener Listener's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2508 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Listener;411276 Wrote: I paid far less for my cables so they only hum. bill My Transporter is connected to SqueezeCenter wirelessly but the air in my house is strictly top of the line audiophile quality. I've done extensive testing, both subjective and objective, and have concluded that the high quality of the air in my house is what allows the Transporter to achieve such a high level of performance. YMMV Sorry, but I had to throw that in since once any discussion of DBT veers into the world of cables all is soon lost. Don't believe me? Just watch what happens over the course of the next 24 hours. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
GuyDebord;410979 Wrote: Listening to music involves all the senses, sight, touch, smell... you guys just dont get it... continue convincing yourselves of perfectly reproduced SOUND! Since when did music smell? -- probedb Paul. 'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb) probedb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7825 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
probedb;411347 Wrote: Since when did music smell? Since people starting believing that the American Idol winners and runner-ups could sing. Remember just say NO to American Idol. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Isn't the great triumph of blind testing that it enables advertisers to claim that 128kbs mp3 is cd quality ? -- john4456 john4456's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=23008 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
john4456;411418 Wrote: Isn't the great triumph of blind testing that it enables advertisers to claim that 128kbs mp3 is cd quality ? No. Any other questions? -- CatBus CatBus's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7461 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
JezA;411022 Wrote: cliveb, you need to listen to some music. go to a concert even. What's the point? I'd have forgotten what it sounded like before I got to the parking lot. I'll go back to my 64kbps frauenhoffer mp3's, people tell me they sound awful but I don't remember hearing anything better, so they must be OK. -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
I'm a bit confused here. Those in favor of DBT use it as a reason for deriding the subjectivists and their expensive cables since DBT clearly shows that most (if not all) cables sound the same. And this behavior is not only accepted but often times encouraged, as in, Hey isn't that guy a dope for spending $$$ on those cables when the much less expensive el-cheapo cable is just as good. Ha ha ha! However when the subjectivists point out that DBTs also show that an mp3 file sounds the same as an uncompressed or losslessly compressed file the objectivists resort to snide remarks and silly comments. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Basically there are problems with both belief systems and as is often the case, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
I am blind and S Club 7 sound the best wherever I am. MC -- ModelCitizen On average people have fewer than two feet. http://www.last.fm/user/ModelCitizen ModelCitizen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=446 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
radish;411454 Wrote: What's the point? I'd have forgotten what it sounded like before I got to the parking lot. I'll go back to my 64kbps frauenhoffer mp3's, people tell me they sound awful but I don't remember hearing anything better, so they must be OK. LOL. ralphpnj;411475 Wrote: However when the subjectivists point out that DBTs also show that an mp3 file sounds the same as an uncompressed or losslessly compressed file Is that true? I thought I'd read about some blind tests where people could distinguish between MP3 320 and red book? If a difference is audible I'm sure the right blind test could be designed to allow people to demonstrate that. Of course, not all blind tests are necessarily good tests! If ninety nine badly designed tests show up no difference and one well designed test shows a difference then I agree we can ignore the ninety nine. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Laptop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 SB3 / Rio Karma / Laptop - JVC UX-C30 / Sennheiser PX-100 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
ralphpnj;411475 Wrote: I'm a bit confused here. Those in favor of DBT use it as a reason for deriding the subjectivists Yep, you're confused. As a rule, we don't. However when the subjectivists point out that DBTs also show that an mp3 file sounds the same as an uncompressed or losslessly compressed file the objectivists resort to snide remarks and silly comments. Live by the sword, die by the sword. It was asserted that DBT was used to show that 128kbps MP3's are CD Quality. I've seen this claim a lot on the Internet, but there's never much in the way of facts behind it, then or now. For example, while I'm sure you could hand-pick some tracks that produce these results, that's hardly the way any objectivist would test. You could also alter the definition of CD Quality such that it doesn't mean sounds indistinguishable from a CD, but then if you go that far you don't even need to bother testing--just ratchet down your definitions until they meet your needs. I've seen quite a lot of DBT's of 128k MP3's. The results are that they don't sound like lossless. I summarized this as: No. Basically there are problems with both belief systems and as is often the case, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. That depends on how you define truth. -- CatBus CatBus's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7461 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
darrenyeats;411499 Wrote: Is that true? I thought I'd read about some blind tests where people could distinguish between MP3 320 and red book? It depends on the sample. There really are tracks have not yet been distinguished with any certainty from RedBook at 320k, and there really are tracks that are easily distinguished with high confidence. The question is: if this is the case, would you trust that your collection fits entirely into the former category without testing each track? The most important point is that people tend to misread DBT results. If someone claims a DBT proves people can't tell the difference between X and Y, they are simply wrong. Flat wrong. It doesn't work like that. The most lossy-friendly results possible will say only that X and Y could not be confidently distinguished within the limits of the test. That last clause--within the limits of the test is what makes most PC-ABX testing worthless, because those tests are more constrained by their listening setup than the media they're testing. -- CatBus CatBus's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7461 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Having trouble using Transporter as standalone DAC with my PS3
rdb001;411237 Wrote: When I connect the optical out to the Transporter, which is hooked up to a DAC via Toslink as well, I get nothing. When I hook the PS3 directly to the DAC, it works fine. Could this be a copy protection issue? I don't believe the TP will pass through digital signals like that (dig input - dig output). If you just need a Toslink switch that might be a little cheaper ;) -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46429 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
ralphpnj;411475 Wrote: I'm a bit confused here. Basically there are problems with both belief systems and as is often the case, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Nonsense. When people make incorrect objective statements they are simply wrong. If one person says the earth is flat and another says it is spherical does the truth lie somewhere in between? Perhaps a cube? If one person says 2+2=6 and another says 2+2=4 is the truth 2+2=5? When it comes to objective matters there is a correct and an incorrect. Subjectivists audiophiles are not wrong about subjective matters but they often wrong about a wide range of objective matters. -- honestguv honestguv's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13734 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Not that I want to pat myself on the back or anything but. More in the way of reaching a middle ground has come about since my last post than in the 10+ prior posts. I'm glad to see that things are beginning to lighten up a bit since nothing new or constructive was being said, just the same old arguments over and over again. I admit that there have been many valid points brought up and based on the reasonable points made by both sides I'm beginning to think, as I stated before, that the truth does lie somewhere between the extremes. One should try and use a blind test along with a decent set of measurements as a starting point and work from there. Regardless of what type of testing one adheres to, be it DBT or subjective testing, no type of testing replaces listening for oneself and, if at all possible, listening to the equipment under consideration in one's own audio system. Because as the man says: YMMV -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Will a transporter sound as good as the Linn Majik DS
Phil Leigh;400666 Wrote: Guys - guys - calm down. All DAC's are voiced to some extent otherwise they would sound dangerously similar. I'm very familiar with Linn gear. It has a house sound that you either love or hate - most folks aren't neutral about this. I like it. I'd generally never describe Linn DIGITAL gear as sweetly beguiling or warmly inviting. It tends to be on the dryly analytical side (rather like the Benchmark) IMHO - and I've heard all of it at some length. If I had the money readily available would I buy a Klimax DS? - yes, Would I buy an Akurate or Magik DS - no. YMMV. Have I compared a Linn DS to a TP? - no. Choosing a DAC/DS is like choosing a cartridge for vinyl - personal preference all the way.I have done the AB thing on TP vs DS and I found that the Sneaky and Majik were more musical than the TP. If you read the engineers comments on the Linn Forum they will tell you that they use Tune Dem when they engineer their products. They first go for maximum information retrievel, then they use Tune Dem to adjust for musicality. This is true across all of their sources. So if you agree with the Linn engineers on the correct pitch for a source, then a Linn source will sound more musical to you, and the difference will be noticable. The SB and the TP have more features, but the DS units are more fun to listen to. If you don't pick up on the tune, then go with the features. -- WhatsNext WhatsNext's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=24839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=60169 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Nothing but distortion/static when SB is connected to digital input of CDP
This is very odd. My SB has worked perfectly when connected to two different outboard DACs as well as the digital input of a home theater receiver, but it doesn't work with the digital input of my CDP. It's not the CDP as I connected a DVD player to it without problem. I assume it has something to do with the format in which the music is being streamed. My squeezecenter settings are currently set to play FLAC files natively. Is there something else I should be doing? Why would it work with the digital input of an outboard DAC (Lavry, CI Audio) but not with the digital input of a CDP since they're both designed to accept digital signals? Do I need to change it to some other format before it reaches the CDP? Thanks for any advice. -- majnun71 majnun71's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=25891 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61980 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
probedb;411347 Wrote: Since when did music smell? have you ever gone to a concert venue, a symphony hall? I never said that music smells, but you involve all your senses in a musical experience... -- GuyDebord '*LAST.FM*' (http://www.last.fm/user/bloodyrosa) - SPEAKERS: Kharma CRM 3.2FE - v/d Hul Inspiration - PRE: Lyngdorf DPA-1 - Kharma Grand Reference XLR's - AMP: Halcro MC20 - ANALOGUE: Clearaudio Ambient CMB, Satisfy Carbon Lyra Helikon SL, ASR Basis Exclusive phono pre - Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II XLRs - DIGITAL: Slim Devices Transporter - Siltech Golden Ridge AES/EBU - AC: PS Audio Power Plant Premier, PS Audio Statement(PPP), ASR Magic Cord(ASR), Siltech SPX30 MKII's for the Lyngdorf, Halcro Transporter GuyDebord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14587 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
honestguv;411263 Wrote: How does somebody voice a cable - what do they change to achieve the desired sound? How do you know for a fact that your cables were voiced? because I have a close relationship with siltech and kharma, and have been present at their voicing auditions. -- GuyDebord '*LAST.FM*' (http://www.last.fm/user/bloodyrosa) - SPEAKERS: Kharma CRM 3.2FE - v/d Hul Inspiration - PRE: Lyngdorf DPA-1 - Kharma Grand Reference XLR's - AMP: Halcro MC20 - ANALOGUE: Clearaudio Ambient CMB, Satisfy Carbon Lyra Helikon SL, ASR Basis Exclusive phono pre - Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II XLRs - DIGITAL: Slim Devices Transporter - Siltech Golden Ridge AES/EBU - AC: PS Audio Power Plant Premier, PS Audio Statement(PPP), ASR Magic Cord(ASR), Siltech SPX30 MKII's for the Lyngdorf, Halcro Transporter GuyDebord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14587 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] speaker amp recommendations please
I'm looking to upgrade the system in my living room/lounge and would like some advice to help come up with a shortlist to audition. I've seen the similar threads that have come up in the past (including 'this thread on speakers' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42541)), and it seems like there are a lot of good options. Now I'm hoping to narrow down the choices based on the room specifics. The room is about 13ft x 15ft (4m x 4.6m) with an 8ft ceiling, and because of the room arrangement the speakers will probably need to go along the longer wall, and cannot be placed more than a foot or so from the back wall. The hardwood floor is mostly covered with thick area carpet, and there is a mixture of soft and hard furnishings. We listen to various types of music, rock, acoustic, vocal, classical, although not much jazz. My budget is around US$1200 -- I don't feel obliged to spend that much, but I could exceed it by a little and be okay. I'm fine with going on the second-hand market such as Audiogon. And I should say that I'd be open to active monitors or amp+passive speakers. Thanks in advance for any insights. -- aubuti aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61984 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
ModelCitizen;411476 Wrote: I am blind and S Club 7 sound the best wherever I am. MC They sound much better if you are deaf. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Nothing but distortion/static when SB is connected to digital input of CDP
I think the output of the squeezebox may be 24bit if any volume control is being applied. Have you set the squeezebox output to fixed (or 100%) and disabled replay gain? -- SuperQ SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61980 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
