[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192kHz considered harmful
Monty at Xiph (Vorbis author) wrote a good article on ultra-high sampling rates with a great explanation on why no one needs or should want them. http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html -- andyg andyg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3292 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93990 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense
http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Someone linked to this interesting read coming from some man that has some knowledge about audio and what is audible or not. He is the main developer of the ogg codec and alone for that he should know 1 or 2 things :) A very interesting point is again that if you really playback higher frequency contenet it is very likely that the audible frequencies indeed get altered but in a negatiuve way. Thats what some people may hear but it can´t be for the better. -- Wombat Transporter (modded) - RG142 - Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks - Sommer SPK240 - self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93991 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192kHz considered harmful
Wombat beat you to the punch :) http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=694304#post694304 we have a tread already -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93990 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 24/192 Music Downloads ...and why they make no sense
Thanks will keep it in my sig for a while , my blatherinmg fills the forum anyway so it could spread this a while -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93991 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192kHz considered harmful
Mine was first, I win. :) -- andyg andyg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3292 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93990 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192kHz considered harmful
I only trust my ears!! ;) -- pippin --- see iPeng, the Squeezebox iPhone remote and *New: iPeng for iPad*, at penguinlovesmusic.com pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93990 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192kHz considered harmful
Thanks Andy for the link to a very interesting article. Parts of it were over my head (he kind of lost me in his discussion of oversampling), but overall he makes a lot of sense. Hopefully knowledgable people like him can bring some sanity to the situation. 24 bit/128kHz formats seemed like complete overkill to me; it's good to see that there is data to confirm that. -- maggior Rich - Setup: 2 SB3s, 4 Booms, 1 Duet, 1 Receiver, 1 Touch, iPeng on iPod Touch, SqueezeCommander on Xoom. SuSE 11.0 Server running SqueezeBoxServer 7.5.5 and SqueezeSlave. Current library stats: 37,509 songs, 2,934 albums, 515 artists. http://www.last.fm/user/maggior maggior's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9080 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93990 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192kHz considered harmful
pippin;694316 Wrote: I only trust my ears!! ;) http://www.seaworld.org/animal-info/info-books/penguin/senses.htm -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93990 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192kHz considered harmful
pippin;694316 Wrote: I only trust my ears!! Not me. I wake up every day with a burning desire to have someone else tell me what I can and cannot hear. -- JJZolx JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93990 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192kHz considered harmful
andyg;694290 Wrote: Monty at Xiph (Vorbis author) wrote a good article on ultra-high sampling rates with a great explanation on why no one needs or should want them. http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Wow - great article, pretty much sums up most of what I believe and what I've been posting here for some years now. Thanks for posting that, Andy. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93990 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192kHz considered harmful
Touche. Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93990 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192kHz considered harmful
..except it's not about what you and I can hear, it is about what any human being can not hear . Thus why a support structure for 192kHz as a consumer format is a total waste and why it will be a unlikely feature on a price limited product as a squeezebox why have a feature that in best case is inaudible or if the user is unlucky slightly audible but not in the expected way. -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93990 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192kHz considered harmful
I do remember that Quad always bandwidth limited their amps in stark contrast to the slewerate fad that was the buzz word in amp design in the 80's ? -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93990 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192kHz considered harmful
pippin;694316 Wrote: I only trust my ears!! ;) Thre are only 3 senses you can trust and sight and sound aren't 2 of those... :-) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93990 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192kHz considered harmful
Phil Leigh;694352 Wrote: Thre are only 3 senses you can trust and sight and sound aren't 2 of those... :-) Really I can't have any of those :D then , smell no touch no temperature no taste no -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93990 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192kHz considered harmful
Here's another doc from the (in)famous Dan Lavry. Same idea and explanation. http://www.lavryengineering.com/documents/Sampling_Theory.pdf -- DaveWr DaveWr's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9331 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93990 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] RC (Inguz etc.)
Hi Phil (Leigh), I don't know if you are still reading this thread but if you are I'd like to ask you a question. I had a go at getting Inguz up and running on a QNAP NAS but after a long time trying gave up. I got partway there but InguzDSP.exe doesn't seem to like the QNAP environment. So I decided to over to switch over to a low energy Windows 7 based system and got Inguz running easily using your modified files. It works a treat and Windows gives me direct access to lots of other Windows goodies like MP3tag as well. The question... I find that the first or second track played each day (after a daily Win7 reboot) does a lot of re-buffering. After that one track though, all following tracks play without a hitch. Is this something you've observed with windows? I'm using LMS/Inguz/SugarCube, the windows machine has been tuned to give priority to background tasks and other than things like AV, VNC nothing else is running. I've also un-installed all the retailer kak' and stopped non essential services. Thanks Bob P.S. Have you noticed that Inguz for Windows has recently been updated to v0.93? -- bobertuk 1 x Touch - SC 7.7.1 - SSOTS v4.14 1 x Radio 1 x Boom Lavry DA-10 DAC QNAP TS-509 3.5.1 build 1002T Starfish Pre-amp : Based on NAIM Heavily modified NAIM NAP 250 Power-amp Behringer DEQ2496 Linn Isobarik DMS bobertuk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=30376 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77084 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192kHz considered harmful
andyg;694290 Wrote: Monty at Xiph (Vorbis author) wrote a good article on ultra-high sampling rates with a great explanation on why no one needs or should want them. http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Super good article! :) It nicely sums up all the audio related explanations and conclusions that I've come to also in my own audio quest. Once again thank you for posting a link to this article! :) -- Bytec Bytec's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17676 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93990 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192kHz considered harmful
mnyb;694320 Wrote: http://www.seaworld.org/animal-info/info-books/penguin/senses.htm :d -- pippin --- see iPeng, the Squeezebox iPhone remote and *New: iPeng for iPad*, at penguinlovesmusic.com pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93990 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192 downsampling when decoding at server side
I've looked carefully into the 192 issue with the Touch and I see no hardware reason why it cannot be done. The crystals are the correct frequencies, the reclocking flops will easily work with those frequencies etc. The only hardware issue might be TOSLINK. Very few TOLINK receivers have a high enough bandwidth to reliably handle 192, even if it could the jitter at the TOSLINK receiver is going to something fierce, it would take a very special DAC to deal with that. The coax output is a different story, it should be able to handle 192 without any problems. The big issue is the driver. It simply was not written for 192. Someone would have to sit down with the processor databook and work out all the register values to allow 192 to work and then rewrite the driver. There is more to it than even that. There are a number of buffers in squeezeplay and ALSA that would probably have to change as well. The parameters have all been originally tuned for 44.1, at higher sample rates they may start not working quite as well. At 96 some of these are getting sort of marginal, at 192 the system may become pretty unstable. Its not necessarily that the hardware can't keep up but that the software needs to be retuned for higher sample rates. I've seen a few places where the code has already been tweaked slighty to handle 96, there will most likely be more of these for 192. So while I think it could be done, and it is just a matter of software, the probability of it happening anytime soon is pretty low. John S. -- JohnSwenson JohnSwenson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5974 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93970 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192kHz considered harmful
Great article! I especially like his vision analogy. I'm still waiting for some extra infrared and UV bandwidth for my TV. When are those broadcasters going to get their act together? Right now I'm listening to The Glory of Gabrieli by the Empire Brass Quintet, from an ordinary Red Book CD ripped to my music server. An absolutely gorgeous recording. Other than hearing it live at a good venue, hard to imagine what should be present that isn't. It's so sad that such a large segment of the audiophile community is still in the specification arms race when so few recordings make full use of the capabilities we have right now. -- mlsstl mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93990 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192 downsampling when decoding at server side
JohnSwenson;694423 Wrote: I've looked carefully into the 192 issue with the Touch and I see no hardware reason why it cannot be done. The crystals are the correct frequencies, the reclocking flops will easily work with those frequencies etc. The only hardware issue might be TOSLINK. Very few TOLINK receivers have a high enough bandwidth to reliably handle 192, even if it could the jitter at the TOSLINK receiver is going to something fierce, it would take a very special DAC to deal with that. The coax output is a different story, it should be able to handle 192 without any problems. The big issue is the driver. It simply was not written for 192. Someone would have to sit down with the processor databook and work out all the register values to allow 192 to work and then rewrite the driver. There is more to it than even that. There are a number of buffers in squeezeplay and ALSA that would probably have to change as well. The parameters have all been originally tuned for 44.1, at higher sample rates they may start not working quite as well. At 96 some of these are getting sort of marginal, at 192 the system may become pretty unstable. Its not necessarily that the hardware can't keep up but that the software needs to be retuned for higher sample rates. I've seen a few places where the code has already been tweaked slighty to handle 96, there will most likely be more of these for 192. So while I think it could be done, and it is just a matter of software, the probability of it happening anytime soon is pretty low. John S. Thanks for the thoughtful analysis. After getting my custom PS (built for the Duet) back after adjusting for the SBT's voltage (5V) and putting it back into the system (replacing the standard wall wart), I did a few more A/B tests on the flac decoding on server vs SBT. At the early morning listening levels that I was testing under, I could hardly tell the difference, if any. So, perhaps I would stay with decoding on SBT for now, for the convenience of everything at least getting played without trouble. Maybe my thoughts will be different if I ever get around to try the hybrid wifi solution (Wifi AP running ethernet cable into SBT). Thanks. -- eduardoo eduardoo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=25850 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93970 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
I just joined the SBT bandwagon last week, hopping on from a Duet which has given me a lot of good times in the last few years. My SBT is connected via wifi to LMS and coax into an Esoteric K-03 as DAC. I also have the custom PS built for my Duet back then adjusted to 5V for the SBT. Hearing all the nice things, I installed TT3.0 (before even getting my PS done). I must say, this is some good work, bringing details, texture and general fidelity up a few notches. Like some of the feedback seen, the only downside I heard was a slight thinning, which had largely been tamed after I got my PS in place. Since then, I have been diligently reading through this thread (now up to page 50 or so), and I see that they were then mentioning finetuning of priorities. Given that I just downloaded my TT3.0 a few days ago and I would probably need quite some time to go through the hundred pages of threads, can someone tell me if those priority tweaks are still required/applicable? If so, can you please point me to the right resource for instructions (I'm a little confused by the numerous replies)? Also, I see that there is a Dynabot mod out there that people have applied in tandem with TT2.0. Should that be applied to 3.0 as well? Sorry for being a little too anxious to get the answer, but your help is appreciated. Thanks. -- eduardoo eduardoo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=25850 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192 downsampling when decoding at server side
You are trading a solution to a no problem for a real problem with the FLAC PCM setting . (This wisdom is taken from a guy who actually claims that the server OS makes an audible difference in a squeezebox system . What x factor makes people trust this guy ? ). There is a tradition in audiophile circles to distrust FLAC ( more like myth , urban legend ) You can find a lot of debate on WAV vs FLAC sound on computer audiophile sites . One of the few trustworthy sources here would be hydrogenaudio . This have always spilled over to squeezeboxes so we have had this claim for all models of squeezeboxes -- Mnyb Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD SqueezePad (in storage SB3, reciever ,controller ) http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93970 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 192kHz considered harmful
Its a nice read and he's probably right in his conclusions - however one of his main poinsts, as I see it, can not be inferred (only) from what he's writing. In particular, the reconstruction of a discrete signal into a continuous one c.f. Nyquist. In fact to the contrary - the reconstruction part of the theorem directly requires an infinite sum. This is easy in mathematics, but how the engineers implement it is still something even folks like Monty does not explain in any detail - in fact, its often completely ignored... But why??? -- bhaagensen bhaagensen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7418 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93990 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
