Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
Julf wrote: > Some measurements to illustrate my point: > > 21514 Wow i see what you mean. Good the is higher humidity is supposed to increase bass response edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
Here's one example of a mesurment http://archimago.blogspot.se/2016/11/measurements-crystal-cable.html And this is actually a good result , best result the super expensive cable perform like any other correctly designed cable. Small measurable variations ,but way below any audiability treshold . Worse case the design is exotic enough to actually perform worse than the free junk cables . No Indonesien use them either , the build quality is usually not good enough. Much of the subjektive "reviews" ( yes a sighted test is not an actuall cable test ) also claims properties a cable simply can not have if you want to affect soundstage and dynamics you need DSP . Works case a cable can have rubbish or nonexistent shielding ( kimber ) then it can maybe pick up noise and hum if it's to close to noise sources . And if it's long enough and have really hig capacitance it migth be a first order lowpass filter if then intrudes <20kHz it's a really bad design. Personaly i would go to blue jean cable for my purchases . You also have canare , mogami et all buy professional cable in bulk and terminate yourself . It's also the very short lengths used in home audio that makes even the shoddiest cable " good enough ". Another concern of mine is the audiophile "design process " if you can call it that leads to really bad products , that actually do respond to cables in unforeseen ways , bad impedance mismatch or instability, such is the status of the cargo cult engineering going on that problems solved decades ago can resurface . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
Julf wrote: > I think there has been a fair bit of that too. Just see the postings > from Archimago. Yes, I've read some of those, they are very interesting. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
Julf wrote: > Some measurements to illustrate my point: > > 21514 I don't believe this image fits into 11 bytes. Or is that just the filename...? :) drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
edwardthern wrote: > Oops sorry about that! Some measurements to illustrate my point: 21514 +---+ |Filename: rain-day.png | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21514| +---+ "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
Julf wrote: > That is a cheap shot at someone living in Amsterdam! Oops sorry about that! edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
drmatt wrote: > Doing measurements maybe. But I don't want to do measurements. I want > the smart sceptics who have already done the measurements to share their > conclusions about what they decided to buy and let us try it for > ourselves. I think there has been a fair bit of that too. Just see the postings from Archimago. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
Julf wrote: > I think there has been a fair bit of attempts at pointing out how to do > measurements using basic, affordable gear, as well as how to do > controlled listening tests. OK you win the contrarian award. Let test it. The sky is blue! edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
Doing measurements maybe. But I don't want to do measurements. I want the smart sceptics who have already done the measurements to share their conclusions about what they decided to buy and let us try it for ourselves. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
drmatt wrote: > The sceptics, like all of us, are quick to talk down things but rarely > offer suggestions as to how to do it instead. (At least I've not seen > much of that here.) I think there has been a fair bit of attempts at pointing out how to do measurements using basic, affordable gear, as well as how to do controlled listening tests. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
edwardthern wrote: > But having measurable proof, as sceptics require is not the end all be > all. Sometimes you can have a measurable difference but no real > perceptible audible difference and vise versa. It is quite normal to have measurable differences that have no audible effect. It is also very common for people to think they hear differences when there are no measurable differences. The rational and scientific reaction is to verify if the people really can hear a difference, and there is a fairly simple and straightforward method for that - controlled, double-blind listening. > At the end of the day it's all subjective. No, it isn't. Preferences are subjective, but "can you tell if system X is the same as system A or system B?" is not. > Those who know, know that everything and anything can and does make a > difference Key word difference, not necessarily better. No, it doesn't. Not if the difference has to actually be audible. > And surely it's obvious the sceptics bully people on the audio forums > more than anyone. They hang up and drive people away. I've seen it a > million times and so have you if you're honest enough to admit it. That "surely" I guess is the same as "everybody knows" (which really means "I think, but can't prove")? I have seen audiophiles bully anyone trying to present measurements or rational arguments, and I have seen it far too often. It drives away people who actually know something about electronics and acoustics, and only leaves the faithful, who don't care if something is real or fairy dust, as long as it is "fun". "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
kidstypike wrote: > Not "different", it's always "better", and the more it costs, the better > it gets. Yeah this is difficult. The shops I've dealt with have generally acknowledged that things like the "naim sound" for example is an acquired taste and not a truly sonically uncoloured solution, so they freely talk about the way things sound as being a preference. That can still be described as an "improvement" if that's the type of sound you like, however, in subjective terms anyway. The price question is trickier. No-one is under the impression that the amount of engineering that goes into a £2k speaker cable (for example) is required to make the sound come out of the speakers. But once it's done, that company has to recoup those costs. Every company uses high end products to elevate their advertising profile to sell more low end stuff. They all state their more expensive one is "better". Me? I don't care, as long as they don't actually fake results and mislead. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
alfista wrote: > Yet someone made the claim that a file sounded different the second time > it was read and didn't like it being called out and refuted based on > easily verified facts It was subjective, you know, so it shouldn't have > to stand up to scrutiny. I think it's more the way it's called out. It was obviously based on misunderstandings which were corrected pretty smartly but in a way that was less than charitable. > Changes in the analogue domain may obviously alter the sound, but I much > prefer claims that are based on some kind of objective analysis and > lacking that at least a subjective judgement that stays moderately > plausible. Dramatic changes due to a different power lead doesn't enter > that realm, even subtle changes is a stretch. I agree. And I don't see the point in posh power cables either. And I don't think anyone other than the outright scammers called out at the beginning of *this* thread would ever claim anything more than extremely subtle differences from cable changes. Ignoring the question of "value for money" of course. Unfortunately your average hifi nut/audiophile would not have access to the necessary test equipment to gather proofs.. so what are the options? The sceptics, like all of us, are quick to talk down things but rarely offer suggestions as to how to do it instead. (At least I've not seen much of that here.) drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
Mnyb wrote: > We are kot talking simple R,L,C and Screen . No higher order effects > like skinneffect does not matter audio is not radar or TV signlas > > The cable scamsters usually claims thing like that silver sounds diffent > than copper :D thats alchemy or build funny boxes at the end of the > cable and really do make it sound diffent huh ? Not "different", it's always "better", and the more it costs, the better it gets. kidstypike LMS on Raspberry Pi 3/max2play/HiFiBerry DAC+ > AVI DM5 1 x SB3 - 1 x Boom - 1 x (Squeezebox) Radio - 2 x Touch - 2 x Raspberry Pi/piCorePlayer/HiFiBerry kidstypike's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10436 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
drmatt wrote: > Much like the analogy in another thread of a picture in a book being the > same no matter how many times you open the book to look at it. > Irrelevant. Yet someone made the claim that a file sounded different the second time it was read and didn't like it being called out and refuted based on easily verified facts It was subjective, you know, so it shouldn't have to stand up to scrutiny. Changes in the analogue domain may obviously alter the sound, but I much prefer claims that are based on some kind of objective analysis and lacking that at least a subjective judgement that stays moderately plausible. Dramatic changes due to a different power lead doesn't enter that realm, even subtle changes is a stretch. Any change done to a normally working digital transport on the other hand has to be intentionally degrading the fidelity of the signal (altering the content) to be audible, any products to improve digital transport or the proponents of said products can and should be dismissed. alfista's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32396 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
Julf wrote: > Surely most sceptics are sceptics. Sceptics tend to dislike falsehoods, > hearsay, misinformation and superstition. I think "hate" is way too > strong a word. > > Maybe it is time to remind you once again that we sceptics (and I am > more than happy to be called that - "a person who habitually doubts the > authenticity of accepted beliefs") have nothing against audiophiles per > se. What we don't like is fanatic audiophiles who rationalize their > preferences by resorting to pseudoscience (and personal attacks against > anyone who questions their beliefs). Surely as an audiophile I've been attacked on a regular basis. I find myself getting ugly in defense. But having measurable proof, as sceptics require is not the end all be all. Sometimes you can have a measurable difference but no real perceptible audible difference and vise versa. At the end of the day it's all subjective. Those who know, know that everything and anything can and does make a difference Key word difference, not necessarily better. For me this hobby is fun, therefore trying everything just adds to the fun. Yes even voodoo magic of necessary. If rather meet change with an open mind than scepticism. And surely it's obvious the sceptics bully people on the audio forums more than anyone. They hang up and drive people away. I've seen it a million times and so have you if you're honest enough to admit it. edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
Yes obviously those analogies were not supposed to be taken seriously, much like most of this thread. Much like the analogy in another thread of a picture in a book being the same no matter how many times you open the book to look at it. Irrelevant. I am glad you don your colourful sceptic underpants-on-the-outside in other parts of life too, but don't be closed minded. The science has to move on. Believe it or not I actually am an engineer too. I don't believe digital changes will make audible differences to your sound system as long as the data stream remains unmodified. (I've yet to thoroughly test this, but I'm happy to take it as read that it's the case.) On the analogue side, however, I think there's plenty of scope for audibility of all sorts of things. Well, all sorts of things that actually change the path or scale of electrical signals. Painting CDs green or hanging sparkly things on your curtains is clearly so much BS I rightly join you in laughing at it. But swapping analogue interconnects? Yeah, I can understand how that can subtly alter the sound. I'm also happy to state that this is all about preference though, and nothing to do with "performance", per se. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
edwardthern wrote: > Surely most sceptics are haters Surely most sceptics are sceptics. Sceptics tend to dislike falsehoods, hearsay, misinformation and superstition. I think "hate" is way too strong a word. Maybe it is time to remind you once again that we sceptics (and I am more than happy to be called that - "a person who habitually doubts the authenticity of accepted beliefs") have nothing against audiophiles per se. What we don't like is fanatic audiophiles who rationalize their preferences by resorting to pseudoscience (and personal attacks against anyone who questions their beliefs). "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
Ah, here comes another bunch of straw men - the snapping sounds you hear are analogies being stretched way beyond any sane limits. drmatt wrote: > I wonder if there is such a thing as a "car fanatic sceptic"? After all, > cars are reviewed based on totally subjective criteria repeatedly and we > all laugh at Top Gear's cool wall but it's all just bull. Every single > one of them is just a box with seats in that goes from A to B. No > measurable difference in its ability to go from A to B, and yet.. where > are the nay sayers? Let's start with the fact that there are easily measurable differences between cars, but of course a lot of BS too. Top Gear is/was a comedy programme very loosely based on cars. And yes, there are lot of car sceptics, pointing out that all sorts of cottage industry "go faster" accessories are totally useless (but if you want to buy a special magnet that improves fuel mileage, PM me) > There are all these things you could do that would be productive for > society. But no, you prefer to belittle folks playing around in a little > cottage industry that barely touches the side of the world economy.. > > Use your sceptic powers for good, not evil! ;) I can't speak for anyone else, but I do in fact spend a fair bit of time countering misinformation, voodoo, and outright lies in my other areas of expertise too. That is the problem with us engineers, we believe in provable facts and rational thinking. Very naive and silly, I know. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
drmatt wrote: > I wonder if there is such a thing as a "car fanatic sceptic"? After all, > cars are reviewed based on totally subjective criteria repeatedly and we > all laugh at Top Gear's cool wall but it's all just bull. Every single > one of them is just a box with seats in that goes from A to B. No > measurable difference in its ability to go from A to B, and yet.. where > are the nay sayers? And then there's estate agents. Can you guys go > spend your not inconsiderable time shouting down estate agents who > charge more because there's no measurable difference in the service they > provide? There are all these things you could do that would be > productive for society. But no, you prefer to belittle folks playing > around in a little cottage industry that barely touches the side of the > world economy.. > > Use your sceptic powers for good, not evil! ;) Great post! Surely most sceptics are haters edwardthern's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66099 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
I wonder if there is such a thing as a "car fanatic sceptic"? After all, cars are reviewed based on totally subjective criteria repeatedly and we all laugh at Top Gear's cool wall but it's all just bull. Every single one of them is just a box with seats in that goes from A to B. No measurable difference in its ability to go from A to B, and yet.. where are the nay sayers? And then there's estate agents. Can you guys go spend your not inconsiderable time shouting down estate agents who charge more because there's no measurable difference in the service they provide? There are all these things you could do that would be productive for society. But no, you prefer to belittle folks playing around in a little cottage industry that barely touches the side of the world economy.. Use your sceptic powers for good, not evil! ;) drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
drmatt wrote: > Sansui must sell a lot of crap hifi to sceptics since everything sounds > the same.. And audiophiles must go through a lot of straw... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Interconnects and Power leads. Snake Oil?
Sansui must sell a lot of crap hifi to sceptics if everything sounds the same.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105775 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
