Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] "Too loud", "too quiet" opinions: what are the factors?
Golden Earring wrote: > Have you considered using a low bitrate internet radio station as a > compressed music source? > ... > BTW, in the UK you're supposed to get licences from the Performing > Rights Society (who handle royalties for composers & publishers) AND a > Public Performance Licence (royalties for playing the music recordings > themselves in public) The shop owners insisted on playing their own playlist. No radio for them. LMS with all its automation, virtual libraries, etc. proved invaluable. Of course in France we 'have a tax for that' (https://www.service-public.fr/professionnels-entreprises/vosdroits/F3094). I think SACEM is the equivalent of the MCPS and SPRE is the equivalent of PRS. I don't believe SACEM (the collector) is investigating the blockchain or any of that :P What you pay is a flat tax sized against your average number of employees during the year. Which music plays, audience size are irrelevant... 3 SB 3 Libratone Loop, Zipp Mini iPeng (iPhone + iPad) LMS 7.9 (linux) with plugins: CD Player, WaveInput, Triode's BBC iPlayer by bpa IRBlaster by Gwendesign (Felix) Server Power Control by Gordon Harris Smart Mix, Music Walk With Me, What Was That Tune? by Michael Herger PowerSave by Jason Holtzapple Song Info, Song Lyrics by Erland Isaksson AirPlay Bridge by philippe_44 WeatherTime by Martin Rehfeld Auto Dim Display, SaverSwitcher, ContextMenu by Peter Watkins. epoch1970's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16711 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] "Too loud", "too quiet" opinions: what are the factors?
epoch1970 wrote: > I am looking into compression, not sure yet how much heavy-handed it > should be... Have you considered using a low bitrate internet radio station as a compressed music source? They're obviously less than CD quality, but should be fine for background music & they already use quite sophisticated (& expensive!) electronic compression systems to reduce the volume changes in their broadcasts: it could save you the trouble if you can find a suitable station... BTW, in the UK you're supposed to get licences from the Performing Rights Society (who handle royalties for composers & publishers) AND a Public Performance Licence (royalties for playing the music recordings themselves in public) if you are going to play recorded music in a shop, or indeed pretty much anywhere else that a 3rd party can hear it, & there are fines for non-compliance with this. It applies whether you play CD's, digital music files or any form of radio broadcast or stream. I imagine that similar laws apply in other countries. Thankfully the licence fees are not that high for small retail premises. Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] "Too loud", "too quiet" opinions: what are the factors?
Golden Earring wrote: > How many loudspeakers do you have in the store? Are they all supplied by > the same amplifier? > > I would suggest the following relatively inexpensive approach... The plan was for 5 amps (PCP with Pi3 + Justboom amp HAT) in dual mono, for 10 speakers. For the moment there are 3 installed, maybe the count will stop at 4. They are configured independently regarding volume and equalization (different speaker types...) I am looking into compression, not sure yet how much heavy-handed it should be... I'm not sure there is much that can be done with the refrigerators themselves. If the compressor has to be pushed to castrating levels then perhaps... ;) Thanks again! 3 SB 3 Libratone Loop, Zipp Mini iPeng (iPhone + iPad) LMS 7.9 (linux) with plugins: CD Player, WaveInput, Triode's BBC iPlayer by bpa IRBlaster by Gwendesign (Felix) Server Power Control by Gordon Harris Smart Mix, Music Walk With Me, What Was That Tune? by Michael Herger PowerSave by Jason Holtzapple Song Info, Song Lyrics by Erland Isaksson AirPlay Bridge by philippe_44 WeatherTime by Martin Rehfeld Auto Dim Display, SaverSwitcher, ContextMenu by Peter Watkins. epoch1970's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16711 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] "Too loud", "too quiet" opinions: what are the factors?
epoch1970 wrote: > I only measured the ambient noise level once, with an iPhone... I did > not expect to have to disclose my findings here :) Anyways, there was > little public in the store, and the quietest place measured at ~34 dB. > In the "L" group, 1m away from the freezer I measured ~46 dB. Facing the > 2 doorless units, I read a bit less noise, except when doors where > opened to the street. > Near the doors, I measured up to 55 dB. Anyone rolling a shopping cart > in there makes ambient noise spike to well over 50dB. > > So it's all relative, inaccurate, and that's only one measurement I > took. But a difference of more than 10dB between the constantly quiet > and noisy places seemed significant to me. > > > Yes I can see the can of worms. But perhaps if the units are indeed > working more or less constantly, a mild noise reduction could be > achieved? How many loudspeakers do you have in the store? Are they all supplied by the same amplifier? I would suggest the following relatively inexpensive approach: 1. Apply any practical soundproofing techniques to the refrigeration units themselves, in particular making sure that their noise is not being amplified by resonances in the floor or by the units touching one another. You need to ensure that the compressor units themselves do not overheat, so unfortunately you can't simply wrap them up with soundproofing material - however adding some sound deadening panels (of the type used in cars to improve the sound of in-door speakers) to the inside of the casing of the refrigeration units may have some effect for relatively little cost. 2. Use separate amplification for each speaker zone so that you can set the volume relative to the residual ambient noise in that particular area. Amps are cheap these days too! 3. Follow the earlier suggestion of reducing the dynamic range of the music programme material so that the music level itself remains more or less constant in each zone. This is likely to work out cheaper than any alternative approach & I suspect that it would prove to be just as effective. Good luck! Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] "Too loud", "too quiet" opinions: what are the factors?
Golden Earring wrote: > Cancelling the noise of your refrigeration units may not be as easy as > you think - how many independent units are there?... How loud are these > things anyway? :) These are commercial refrigeration units similar to these: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/Kuehlregal_USA.jpg/1200px-Kuehlregal_USA.jpg There is an area with about 15 linear meters of them, shaped like an L. They have doors, I think we are talking of 4 or 5 devices overall. Facing the angle of the L, there is a freezer unit. It's not huge but this one is a noisy b. But hey, even in an organic foodstore I guess you can feel entitled to a frozen TV dinner. First impression, I would say the "L" group + freezer are more or less running constantly. Then in another area there are 2 units of similar shape, these have no doors (only a curtain drawn after hours) and are used for vegetables. I'd say they are set to a higher temperature and work less hard, although the lack of doors must have an effect. They are anyway in a noisy area, near the entry/exit doors at street level. I only measured the ambient noise level once, with an iPhone... I did not expect to have to disclose my findings here :) Anyways, there was little public in the store, and the quietest place measured at ~34 dB. In the "L" group, 1m away from the freezer I measured ~46 dB. Facing the 2 doorless units, I read a bit less noise, except when doors where opened to the street. Near the doors, I measured up to 55 dB. Anyone rolling a shopping cart in there makes ambient noise spike to well over 50dB. So it's all relative, inaccurate, and that's only one measurement I took. But a difference of more than 10dB between the constantly quiet and noisy places seemed significant to me. > You'd have to "close mike" each unit separately & insert a reversed > phase signal from each through a mixing unit into your audio signal - & > even then you'll only be able to achieve one "dead zone" in which the > sound is cancelled. You would probably end up with *-greater-* > "compressor" noise in other areas where the introduced cancellation > signal itself was actually louder than the noise there from the > refrigeration units themselves... Yes I can see the can of worms. But perhaps if the units are indeed working more or less constantly, a mild noise reduction could be achieved? 3 SB 3 Libratone Loop, Zipp Mini iPeng (iPhone + iPad) LMS 7.9 (linux) with plugins: CD Player, WaveInput, Triode's BBC iPlayer by bpa IRBlaster by Gwendesign (Felix) Server Power Control by Gordon Harris Smart Mix, Music Walk With Me, What Was That Tune? by Michael Herger PowerSave by Jason Holtzapple Song Info, Song Lyrics by Erland Isaksson AirPlay Bridge by philippe_44 WeatherTime by Martin Rehfeld Auto Dim Display, SaverSwitcher, ContextMenu by Peter Watkins. epoch1970's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16711 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] "Too loud", "too quiet" opinions: what are the factors?
epoch1970 wrote: > Of course, noise cancellation would be great... There are refrigeration > units, quite loud and they produce what I think is stationary noise. Hi! Cancelling the noise of your refrigeration units may not be as easy as you think - how many independent units are there? Each one will switch its compressor (i.e. the refrigeration pump) on & off thermostatically according to the temperature inside the unit & therefore even though the noise made by each compressor may be "static" in nature, the aggregate noise generated by them all will vary as individual units switch on & off independently of one another - none of them should be on all of the time: if this is not the case then you don't have adequate refrigeration capacity. You'd have to "close mike" each unit separately & insert a reversed phase signal from each through a mixing unit into your audio signal - & even then you'll only be able to achieve one "dead zone" in which the sound is cancelled. You would probably end up with *-greater-* "compressor" noise in other areas where the introduced cancellation signal itself was actually louder than the noise there from the refrigeration units themselves... How loud are these things anyway? Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] "Too loud", "too quiet" opinions: what are the factors?
Using a compressor is actually what I am experimenting with right now. I would say job done if the end result was a less tiring/fluctuating audio stream. Regarding auto-volume control, reading from the comments I no longer expect as much. I did also a bit of testing and pumping the volume up I ended with "loud music in a noisy environment". You just want to go away from that, not good for a store :) So the adjustment would probably have to be minute, and defining the right base level on volume and compression looks like a good start. Of course, noise cancellation would be great... There are refrigeration units, quite loud and they produce what I think is stationary noise. I'll be back with another silly question if I decide to start on this ;) 3 SB 3 Libratone Loop, Zipp Mini iPeng (iPhone + iPad) LMS 7.9 (linux) with plugins: CD Player, WaveInput, Triode's BBC iPlayer by bpa IRBlaster by Gwendesign (Felix) Server Power Control by Gordon Harris Smart Mix, Music Walk With Me, What Was That Tune? by Michael Herger PowerSave by Jason Holtzapple Song Info, Song Lyrics by Erland Isaksson AirPlay Bridge by philippe_44 WeatherTime by Martin Rehfeld Auto Dim Display, SaverSwitcher, ContextMenu by Peter Watkins. epoch1970's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16711 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] "Too loud", "too quiet" opinions: what are the factors?
I've never found ReplayGain to really do an adequate job of adjusting volume so that I never had to adjust the volume of music playing randomly. Older CDs, especially, before the loudness wars and the massive compression employed in later releases, are still noticeably quieter. IMO, the only way to "fix" the problem would be to employ some kind of additional compression during the music playback, like they do with radio station broadcasts. Or perhaps there could be some kind of pre-processing you could that would modify the audio files in the library and accomplish the same thing. JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] "Too loud", "too quiet" opinions: what are the factors?
I think we can consider the topic closed. My thanks for the interesting and varied contributions! 3 SB 3 Libratone Loop, Zipp Mini iPeng (iPhone + iPad) LMS 7.9 (linux) with plugins: CD Player, WaveInput, Triode's BBC iPlayer by bpa IRBlaster by Gwendesign (Felix) Server Power Control by Gordon Harris Smart Mix, Music Walk With Me, What Was That Tune? by Michael Herger PowerSave by Jason Holtzapple Song Info, Song Lyrics by Erland Isaksson AirPlay Bridge by philippe_44 WeatherTime by Martin Rehfeld Auto Dim Display, SaverSwitcher, ContextMenu by Peter Watkins. epoch1970's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16711 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] "Too loud", "too quiet" opinions: what are the factors?
bpa wrote: > my basic point was that it is usually not possible to please all the > people all of the time. I agree that's a factor! Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] "Too loud", "too quiet" opinions: what are the factors?
darrenyeats wrote: > It depends what you mean by automated control. Does this include > reacting to outside peak temperature - I guess this would need hooking > into forecasts? > > One of my complaints about many offices is that they are too cold on hot > days and too hot on cold days. I know seasonal adjustments are made but > that seems too simplistic and the temperature difference not enough. It > think it's down to people, understandably, wearing warmer clothes on hot > days and lighter clothes on hot days. There is little to be gained exploring my example - my basic point was that it is usually not possible to please all the people all of the time. Automation may not be the answer and the OP needs to consider than before putting lots of effort into automation. bpa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] "Too loud", "too quiet" opinions: what are the factors?
bpa wrote: > > From past experience with an office and air-conditioning. Even though > temp was automated - it seems depending on how it looked outside (sunny, > rainy, windy) - occupants "felt" hot/cold and complained. Solution - > put in a control the occupants could twiddle but in reality temp was > still automated but occupants felt empowered and except then complaints > were about other people putting temp up/down. It depends what you mean by automated control. Does this include reacting to outside peak temperature - I guess this would need hooking into forecasts? One of my complaints about many offices is that they are too cold on hot days and too hot on cold days. I know seasonal adjustments are made but that seems too simplistic and the temperature difference not enough. It think it's down to people, understandably, wearing warmer clothes on hot days and lighter clothes on hot days. Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] "Too loud", "too quiet" opinions: what are the factors?
epoch1970 wrote: > Sorry if the post is off topic for this forum. > I have put a player in a store a few weeks ago. People who work there > keep changing the volume on the player although it uses track replaygain > and plays at random from a specific library. > Not only they change volume but they have one single complain about the > system: it's either too soft or too loud. People's opinions vary in > time: it's not always "too loud" for the same person. > > My personal take on this is that the ambient noise in the store varies > "a lot" between moments there are little customers and rush hour, while > the player keeps pushing audio at the same volume; if this is true, I > think something like an ambient microphone would help adjust player > volume automatically. > Good diagnosis. > > However I have no idea how I would make that really work, and before > starting I'd like to verify if this is -the- reason for these people's > swinging opinion about music volume. > Hence my question: what makes people say music is too loud or too soft? > > I hope this is clear and not off-topic. If so I am eager to get your > inputs. This same problem exists in motor vehicles. Some of the more sophisticated vehicle sound systems automatically adjust the volume depending on noise levels in the passenger compartment. First cut, there may be existing commercial products that do this in the more general case. Google is your friend. Second cut, the feature is implemented by a variable gain circuit that is controlled by the long-term averaged signal value on a special input that may be hooked to a microphone in the space to be controlled. There needs to be some feature that keeps the system from reacting to its own adjustments to the music level. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] "Too loud", "too quiet" opinions: what are the factors?
I think you'll never keep people happy even after adding automation. >From past experience with an office and air-conditioning. Even though temp was automated - it seems depending on how it looked outside (sunny, rainy, windy) - occupants "felt" hot/cold and complained. Solution - put in a control the occupants could twiddle but in reality temp was still automated but occupants felt empowered and except then complaints were about other people putting temp up/down. bpa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] "Too loud", "too quiet" opinions: what are the factors?
This is totally off-topic for an audiophiles section, but my recommendation for this would be to parts. Step 1, get a an SPL meter. There are some out there with USB so you could try and do data logging. Step 2, Find out what volume level is loud enough to not be a bother when the store is quiet. I personally would lock the volume level max somewhere where the music doesn't cause problems when the shop is quiet. Sure, it might not be listening volume when the store is busy, but when the shop is busy, do you want to have music competing with actual conversations with customers? SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] "Too loud", "too quiet" opinions: what are the factors?
Sorry if the post is off topic for this forum. I have put a player in a store a few weeks ago. People who work there keep changing the volume on the player although it uses track replaygain and plays at random from a specific library. Not only they change volume but they have one single complain about the system: it's either too soft or too loud. People's opinions vary in time: it's not always "too loud" for the same person. My personal take on this is that the ambient noise in the store varies "a lot" between moments there are little customers and rush hour, while the player keeps pushing audio at the same volume; if this is true, I think something like an ambient microphone would help adjust player volume automatically. However I have no idea how I would make that really work, and before starting I'd like to verify if this is -the- reason for these people's swinging opinion about music volume. Hence my question: what makes people say music is too loud or too soft? I hope this is clear and not off-topic. If so I am eager to get your inputs. 3 SB 3 Libratone Loop, Zipp Mini iPeng (iPhone + iPad) LMS 7.9 (linux) with plugins: CD Player, WaveInput, Triode's BBC iPlayer by bpa IRBlaster by Gwendesign (Felix) Server Power Control by Gordon Harris Smart Mix, Music Walk With Me, What Was That Tune? by Michael Herger PowerSave by Jason Holtzapple Song Info, Song Lyrics by Erland Isaksson AirPlay Bridge by philippe_44 WeatherTime by Martin Rehfeld Auto Dim Display, SaverSwitcher, ContextMenu by Peter Watkins. epoch1970's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16711 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=107617 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
