Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
ceejay, mswlogo, Thank you for your answers. I assume that the reason of the different sound is caused by different parameters, but I don't know which parameter and which value. I'll tried to have the same configurations, but there are a lot of parameters, from disk access to CPU cache and so on, and I really don't know enough to have the same parameter values on different pcs and different operating systems. That is the reason why I ask for soemone with the same experiences here in this forum. cliveb, You mentionned a good point. I have no air fans in the listening room, and the hard disk access is not audible. The environment noise during night is near zero. Therefore no influence. Pale Blue Ego, Three of the four cases have the same serial ATA interface, two of them even physically the same interface (same PC with 2 operating systems). I could imagine that another interface causes other sound, but I would restrict to my 4 cases. -- Georgie Slimserver 6.5.1 / SSODS 2.12 / DS106X / SB3 Georgie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35382 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
Georgie;203712 Wrote: ceejay, mswlogo, Thank you for your answers. I assume that the reason of the different sound is caused by different parameters, but I don't know which parameter and which value. I'll tried to have the same configurations, but there are a lot of parameters, from disk access to CPU cache and so on, and I really don't know enough to have the same parameter values on different pcs and different operating systems. That is the reason why I ask for soemone with the same experiences here in this forum. cliveb, You mentionned a good point. I have no air fans in the listening room, and the hard disk access is not audible. The environment noise during night is near zero. Therefore no influence. Pale Blue Ego, Three of the four cases have the same serial ATA interface, two of them even physically the same interface (same PC with 2 operating systems). I could imagine that another interface causes other sound, but I would restrict to my 4 cases. With all due respect, just make sure the slimserver settings are identical and try the test blind. If server configuration variations(OS, CPU, memory, hard disks, etc.) were really changing the bits going over TCP/IP, then we would have much larger problems than audible variations with the Transporter, as TCP/IP networking would be unreliable. Make sure none of the Slimservers are doing any type of transcoding or bitrate limiting. If the slimserver settings are the same, and you are streaming identical files, then it is extremely unlikely that there is any audible difference. -- jeffmeh jeffmeh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3986 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35382 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
Thank you all very much for all ideas and feedbacks. To clarify: I'm absolutely happy with my squeezebox and my audio systems and yes, I enjoy listening to the music (with case c) ) and not to the differences of sound. The topic of this thread is for me to discuss some effects for which I did not find an answer until now. As a conclusion: It seems to me that nobody else made the same experiences concerning this topic, and this is also an answer for me. Georg -- Georgie Slimserver 6.5.1 / SSODS 2.12 / DS106X / SB3 Georgie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35382 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
I think you'll be able to narrow it down to the SATA vs. IDE interface. You could also try mounting the drive(s) in an external USB case. Do a bunch of listening tests, re-mounting the drive between each test track. Then choose the best-sounding interface. Or, just go with firewire. I've found it lifted at least 4 layers of veiling and gives me deeper bass and much better transients. -- Pale Blue Ego Pale Blue Ego's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=110 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35382 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
Georgie;203095 Wrote: Thank you all very much for all ideas and feedbacks. To clarify: I'm absolutely happy with my squeezebox and my audio systems and yes, I enjoy listening to the music (with case c) ) and not to the differences of sound. The topic of this thread is for me to discuss some effects for which I did not find an answer until now. As a conclusion: It seems to me that nobody else made the same experiences concerning this topic, and this is also an answer for me. Georg In all honesty if you really do hear a difference it's probably because you have something set different. -- mswlogo mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35382 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
I'm playing with buying a transporter and have read all the threads comparing it with a modded sqeezebox. By chance I changed my server hard- and software and was astonished that different server sources sound so different. Has anybody made the same experiences, and does anybody know why and what kind of influences are behind? Here my configurations, all are with the 6.5.2 Slimserver and the 81 client SW: a) Synology DS106X (256 MB RAM) with a LINUX operating system. serial ATA Disk. b) Slim client with Xubuntu 7.04 and timetra crusoe processor (512 MB RAM), with a via network interface controller. Disk of the DS106X is mounted with SMB. c) VIA EPIA CN1000 board (1GB RAM), musik files on the attached 2.5 Serial ATA Harddisk. Win XP. d) VIA EPIA CN1000 board (1GB RAM), musik files on the attached 2.5 Serial ATA Harddisk. Xubuntu. Listening with: modded Squeezebox 3 (linear power supply, jitter-reducing converter to AES/EBU Output), siltech golden ridge cable, AQVOX 2.0 D/A-Converter and Stax 007t/Omega2 earspeaker. Compared with CD on a Phillips PRO 2M drive with the same jitter-reducing converter to AES/EBU Output and the same listening equippment. At start, I loaded always the client sw in the squeezebox and played the Densen Demagnetizer Track to ensure the same base for comparing. All results depend on my personal listening of 10 different WAV files - no objective measurement. I found: a) sound stage: not as deep as with the (excellent) CD drive , instrument location good, but not excellent, sound is rich, but in the very deepest details not as clear as the CD Player. I like this sound. b) sound stage: compressed, more depth than width, instrument location floating, sound has a little bit less dynamic than a) or the CD player. c) sound stage better than the CD player, instrument location excellent, sound with a little bit more contour, not a soft sound, Dynamic OK - this could become the best solution, quality at least as good as the CD player but sound coloration and reproduction a little bit different. d) sound stage better than the CD player, instrument location good, sound a little bit agressive, tends to shrill - not for listening over hours, Dynamic not as good as c). It seems to me that the differences of the servers are bigger than the differences between a modded Squeeezebox an the transporter and bigger than the differences between FLAC and WAV. I would be happy to get your oppinions to this topic. Georg -- Georgie Slimserver 6.5.1 / SSODS 2.12 / DS106X / SB3 Georgie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9604 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35382 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
Try picking the combo you think sounds best and compare it to the worst in a blind test. Do you still hear a difference ? If so, keep your reference and keep eliminating (blind), one by one, the other setups. As long as your not spending money and your having fun no harm is done :-) -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35382 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
IMHO the most likely explanation for any difference between different server installations would be if some configuration difference had accidentally crept in while installing - perhaps different volume or preamp settings, or file format transcodiing options. If all of those variables have indeed been eliminated, then I think you've just done an excellent demonstration of the power of the placebo effect. On the other hand, if you do want to go looking for differences, you will first need to be clear about whether you are streaming the WAV files directly to the SB, or whether (the default) they are being transcoded to FLAC before being sent. If the former, then you are going to have to think very hard about what mechanism might be in play to allow the OS that is sending the WAV files down a heavily buffered IP network to affect the way that the SB is delivering the bits to a DAC. If the latter, then we are back in the FLAC sounds different to WAV discussion, which I'd rather stay out of, though I do note that proponents of this argument usually offer an explanation along the lines that there is some odd effect of the FLAC-WAV decoding in the SB which is causing an audible outcome... how that would work when the DAC is external to the SB I really can't imagine. Unless of course the servers are generating airborne or mains-borne interference with the DAC, in which case the SB is irrelevant anyway... IMHO. Ceejay -- ceejay ceejay's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=148 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35382 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
You claim that an (X) audible ( ) measurable ( ) hypothetical improvement in sound quality can be attained by: ( ) upsampling ( ) non-oversampling ( ) increasing word size ( ) vibration dampening ( ) bi-wiring ( ) replacing the external power supply (X) using a different lossless format ( ) decompressing on the server ( ) removing bits of metal from skull ( ) using ethernet instead of wireless ( ) inverting phase ( ) reversing polarity of resistors ( ) ultra fast recovery rectifiers ( ) installing bigger connectors ( ) installing Black Gate caps ( ) installing ByBee filters ( ) installing hospital-grade AC jacks ( ) defragmenting the hard disk ( ) running older firmware ( ) using exotic materials in cabinet ( ) bronze heatsinks ( ) violin lacquer ( ) $500 power cords (X) altering your server's hardware/OS Your idea will not work. Specifically, it fails to account for: (X) the placebo effect (X) your ears honestly aren't that good ( ) your idea has already been thoroughly disproved ( ) modern DACs upsample anyway ( ) those products are pure snake oil (X) lossless formats, by definition, are lossless (X) those measurements are bogus ( ) sound travels much slower than you think ( ) electric signals travel much faster than you think ( ) that's not how binary arithmetic works (X) that's not how TCP/IP works ( ) the Nyquist theorem ( ) the can't polish a turd theorem (X) bits are bits You will try to defend you idea by: ( ) claiming that your ears are trained ( ) claiming immunity to psychological/physiological factors that affect everyone else ( ) name-calling ( ) criticizing spelling/grammar (X) acting miffed Your subsequent arguments will probably appeal in desperation to such esoterica as: ( ) jitter ( ) EMI ( ) thermal noise ( ) quantum mechanical effects ( ) resonance ( ) existentialism ( ) nihilism ( ) communism (X) cosmic rays And you will then change the subject to: ( ) theories are not the same as facts (X) measurements don't tell everything ( ) not everyone is subject to the placebo effect ( ) blind testing is dumb (X) you can't prove what I can't hear ( ) science isn't everything Rather than engage in this tired discussion, I suggest exploring the following factors which are more likely to improve sound quality in your situation: ( ) room acoustics ( ) source material ( ) type of speakers ( ) speaker placement ( ) crossover points ( ) equalization (X) Q-tips ( ) psychoanalysis ( ) trepanation -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35382 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
Is the server in the listening room? If it is, then perhaps the different operating systems cause different amounts of acoustic noise to emanate from the servers - eg. varying CPU fan speeds, different hard disk access behaviour leading to different levels of noise from the heads, etc. This different acoustic noise could then in turn have varying interference effects on the reproduced soundfield. This is of course just speculation. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35382 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
Quoting ceejay ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): IMHO the most likely explanation for any difference between different server installations would be if some configuration difference had accidentally crept in while installing - perhaps different volume or preamp settings, or file format transcodiing options. If all of those variables have indeed been eliminated, then I think you've just done an excellent demonstration of the power of the placebo effect. Maybe it's the file system latency introduced by differing paths to the music storage. dd 'joking, but I am positive someone is going to mess with this now' -- http://www.last.fm/user/ddewey ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
Try to replace your internal SATA cables with the silver ones made by Cargas. It will lower internal jitter, which is certainly the reason for the differences you hear. !gniddik tsuJ -- 325xi 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35382 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
Lol :D I think you've just given me a business idea... ;) -- AndyC_772 AndyC_772's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35382 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
opaqueice;202922 Wrote: You claim that an (X) audible ( ) measurable ( ) hypothetical I think this is my favorite post of all time in this forum. -- dem Dave dem's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2504 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35382 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
Georgie;202859 Wrote: At start, I loaded always the client sw in the squeezebox and played the Densen Demagnetizer Track to ensure the same base for comparing. Georg This says it all right above. It's unbelievable the snake oil people fall for. You'll never be satisfied, relax and enjoy the music until you stop believing in crap like this. High end audio parlor sales persons have wet dreams over customers that buy this stuff. It's too funny. I can't wait to show this CD to a few friends. -- mswlogo mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35382 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
I would be happy to get your oppinions to this topic I wouldn't overlook the effect of changing the wi-fi channel used by your router when connecting the Transporter. I found that the even-numbered 802.11g channels narrowed the sound-stage quite considerably. After careful listening, even my wife agreed that when connecting on 802.11g channel 9 a 'veil was lifted' on the music. -- amcluesent amcluesent's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10286 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35382 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
amcluesent;202991 Wrote: I would be happy to get your oppinions to this topic I wouldn't overlook the effect of changing the wi-fi channel used by your router when connecting the Transporter. I found that the even-numbered 802.11g channels narrowed the sound-stage quite considerably. After careful listening, even my wife(!) agreed that when connecting on 802.11g channel 9 a 'veil was lifted' on the music. I'm thinking that even numbered wi-fi channels can generate constructive harmonics with the DAC oscillator, increasing the jitter and 'glare' in the music. OMG, OMG I have found the same thing. Odd numbers ALWAYS sound better. BTW I am selling audiophile grade routers that only have odd number channels and come with custom power supply 10,000.00. A bargain, as any rational person would agree. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35382 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
Why is there an audiophile forum?? Since almost anytime anyone who posts a question that has to do with sound quality is flamed. I get the feeling that if this was a automotive forum those that can't afford the Porsche would also try to belittle those that can afford one.. Sad -- ErikM ErikM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7576 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35382 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
ErikM;203028 Wrote: Why is there an audiophile forum?? Since almost anytime anyone who posts a question that has to do with sound quality is flamed. I get the feeling that if this was a automotive forum those that can't afford the Porsche would also try to belittle those that can afford one.. Sad Oh come on , Eric, that is a complete misrepresentation of this forum. Please don't confuse a sense of humor with flaming. Everyone here is concerned with SQ and value. BTW, since my system retails in excess of 50,000 I guess I am in the Porsche category and I still like to poke fun at audiofools. BTW2 I was an idiot to spend that much..no, wait, I got everything new at 30% off ..only 35,000.00 WOW.what a bargain!!! So I am an idiot - 30% I was sleeping with the salesgirl...hm...was she USING me? -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35382 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
tomjtx;203032 Wrote: I WAS sleeping with the salesgirl...hm...was she USING me? Now there is a business model. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35382 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Different servers sound different
Georgie;202859 Wrote: I'm playing with buying a transporter and have read all the threads comparing it with a modded sqeezebox. By chance I changed my server hard- and software and was astonished that different server sources sound so different. I think you'd benefit from a lifetime subscription to What Hi-Fi. -- egd Transporter SCA2 SCM100SLAT via balanced XLR Linux and loving IT! egd's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3425 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35382 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
