Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
Archimago wrote: > As for the "Jazz In The Pawnshop", does anyone know where the history of > this one began in terms of the audiophile psyche? Something about it > being featured in some Hong Kong audiophile magazine or something like > that? > > I agree - it sucks. But I do have it around for the visiting audiophiles > who love the jazz-club ambience :-). I believe that "Jazz at the Pawn Shop" is so bad that it has to be #1 on the late HP's "Super Disc List", of as I like to called it "The List of Discs To Be Avoided Like the Plague". By the way, the best jazz club ambiance I know of is free drinks! Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
Archimago wrote: > Yeah. That's a good one! Will be very interesting to see what happens to > Pono now in the public eye. No surprise for folks who've tried tests > with hi-res audio. As suspected, very possible to see a public backlash > for the unrealistic silly hype. I still just hope the importance of > mastering gets *strongly* discussed so there is at least an opportunity > to change sound quality for the good. > > As for the "Jazz In The Pawnshop", does anyone know where the history of > this one began in terms of the audiophile psyche? Something about it > being featured in some Hong Kong audiophile magazine or something like > that? > > I agree - it sucks. But I do have it around for the visiting audiophiles > who love the jazz-club ambience :-). I have no idea , but I think it's a bit out of context anyway . You must probably be from Sweden ( like me ) and possibly also been to the pawnshop jazz club ( check ) also be a bit older than me and have some nostalgia for that part of Swedish jazz history and these performers . Why it's been lifted out off its cultural context over space and time and are revered by Japanese high end aficionados ? Some things are true mysteries . However the record company proprius have made many excellent classical and choral recordings over the years and some other stuff too . I think it's ok and it actually does sound exactly like that jazz club . But it is of no significance in the greater scheme of things . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
kidstypike wrote: > https://www.yahoo.com/tech/it-was-one-of-kickstarters-most-successful-109496883039.html?src=rss&utm_content=buffer60e10&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkedin.com&utm_campaign=buffer > :( :rolleyes: ;) Yeah. That's a good one! Will be very interesting to see what happens to Pono now in the public eye. No surprise for folks who've tried tests with hi-res audio. As suspected, very possible to see a public backlash for the unrealistic silly hype. I still just hope the importance of mastering gets *strongly* discussed so there is at least an opportunity to change sound quality for the good. As for the "Jazz In The Pawnshop", does anyone know where the history of this one began in terms of the audiophile psyche? Something about it being featured in some Hong Kong audiophile magazine or something like that? I agree - it sucks. But I do have it around for the visiting audiophiles who love the jazz-club ambience :-). Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
ralphpnj wrote: > My audiophile card was revoked the first time I heard "Jazz at the Pawn > Shop" and promptly declared that it was pure dreck and that I much > prefer to listen to Louie Armstrong's Hot Five and Sevens recordings. I second the motion. The music comes first -- a wonderful recording of bad music is like watching a mindless sitcom rerun on a 4K ultra definition TV. Why bother? mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
kidstypike wrote: > https://www.yahoo.com/tech/it-was-one-of-kickstarters-most-successful-109496883039.html?src=rss&utm_content=buffer60e10&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkedin.com&utm_campaign=buffer > :( :rolleyes: ;) Thanks for the link! A very thorough review (and bashing) of the much hyped Pono player and music, although it is not without its share of errors (both the original article and the referenced link (http://thestereobus.com/2008/01/12/sample-rate-and-bitrate-the-guts-of-digital-audio/) don't quite the whole bit depth concept correct). Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/it-was-one-of-kickstarters-most-successful-109496883039.html?src=rss&utm_content=buffer60e10&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkedin.com&utm_campaign=buffer :( :rolleyes: ;) kidstypike 1 x SB3 - 1 x Boom - 1 x (Squeezebox) Radio - 2 x Touch - 2 x piCorePlayer kidstypike's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10436 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
Squeezemenicely wrote: > Archimago as usual your views and research are a very interesting read. > > Being a listener with relatively good hearing, I have often asked myself > if there really is a difference between a CD flac and 24/96. Often it is > the better remaster that makes the "big" difference. > > Also maybe the placebo effect, still sometimes I prefer the 24/96files. > The difference is slight, but somehow it seems there is more audible > space in the higher frequencies - no idea how to put it - probably > sounds silly anyway. Sometimes the album is mastered differently for the different media. "Hypnotic Eye" - Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, was issued with different masters for CD (which is DR 7) and vinyl, hires download, and blu ray (which are DR 13). I can't remember which version went to iTunes. http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=&album=hypnotic+eye BTW my hearing is a mess. I have almost no hearing in my left ear (sudden sensorineural hearing loss). I can't tell which direction sounds come from. When audiophiles talk about soundstage being wider, shallower, voices in the middle, etc. its all lost on me. I can't tell the difference between 24/96 and 16/44, but I can still tell a bad (loudness wars) mastering from a good one. I bought quite a lot of "remastered" rock CDs because I didn't know any better. I loved the way my speakers sounded on acoustic music but not so much on electric music. I then bought the Steven Wilson remix of "The Yes Album", compared it to the previous (loud) CD I had and was blown away. My speakers sounded good on this electric music! For me the difference in in the mastering Homebuilt Votexbox 2.2 (2004 Pentium4, 2.66 GHz, 2.5 GB RAM) running LMS 7.8.0 Home Office: Wi-Fi>Touch>Coax>Peachtree Audio Nova>PSB Imagine Towers Den: Ethernet>Touch>Coax>Onkyo TX-SR806>Polk Speakers (2.1 for music) CharlieG's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32439 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
CharlieG wrote: > WOW! > I'm so glad you posted this. I can't get into "Jazz at the Pawn Shop" > either. > I thought maybe it was over my head! For some very strange reason I don't think that the sound of people eating and glasses clinking is music, no matter how lifelike and well recorded they may be. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
Julf wrote: > Except when they are just conversions from 44.1/16 ralphpnj wrote: > Oops I forgot about those gems. In many cases, not even the best 16/44 masters. Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
ralphpnj wrote: > My audiophile card was revoked the first time I heard "Jazz at the Pawn > Shop" and promptly declared that it was pure dreck and that I much > prefer to listen to Louie Armstrong's Hot Five and Sevens recordings. WOW! I'm so glad you posted this. I can't get into "Jazz at the Pawn Shop" either. I thought maybe it was over my head! Homebuilt Votexbox 2.2 (2004 Pentium4, 2.66 GHz, 2.5 GB RAM) running LMS 7.8.0 Home Office: Wi-Fi>Touch>Coax>Peachtree Audio Nova>PSB Imagine Towers Den: Ethernet>Touch>Coax>Onkyo TX-SR806>Polk Speakers (2.1 for music) CharlieG's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32439 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
My audiophile card was revoked the first time I heard "Jazz at the Pawn Shop" and promptly declared that it was pure dreck and that I much prefer to listen to Louie Armstrong's Hot Five and Sevens recordings. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
pablolie wrote: > if he lives long enough and sticks true to his record of living off his > legacy and not writing any new music, but rather pimping HR msuic stuff, > i am sure in 3 years he'll tell us pono sounds like sh*t and his new > 48bit 284kHz XHD biz is finally the truth in all things music > resolution. until Moore's Music Resolution Law (written by Geoffrey's > slightly less talented brother) notches things up to 96bit and 568kHz or > something... > ... > 96/568 - that's the promised land! By then, imagine how much better and more detailed recordings with up to 22kHz, 96dB noise floor, and DR7 can sound! :o Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
Mnyb wrote: > No I thought it immoral to do soo I did not want peddle snake oil myself > , this stuff actually sits very well in the dumpster :D Wow. A man of principle! Impressive! Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
Archimago wrote: > Ouch. Couldn't you resell some of that stuff and get a few bucks back? > That's what a friend did... Got rid of all his expensive wires, stayed > with some Mogami's. Tells me he has been happy to be free of the cable > obsession since. No I thought it immoral to do soo I did not want peddle snake oil myself , this stuff actually sits very well in the dumpster :D Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
Mnyb wrote: > I think my audiophile card got revoked when I put my high end cable > collection in the recycling dumpster including a set of audio quest > caldera speaker wires > > Anyhow I do sometimes buy the HiRez version of something if it's aviable > , but I rarely go above 24/96 that's good enough . Ouch. Couldn't you resell some of that stuff and get a few bucks back? That's what a friend did... Got rid of all his expensive wires, stayed with some Mogami's. Tells me he has been happy to be free of the cable obsession since. Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
I think my audiophile card got revoked when I put my high end cable collection in the recycling dumpster including a set of audio quest caldera speaker wires Anyhow I do sometimes buy the HiRez version of something if it's aviable , but I rarely go above 24/96 that's good enough . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
Archimago wrote: > Didn't ya hear, N.Y. said 'MP3 sounds like sh*t' > (http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/permalink/2014/03/11/pono). > as far as i am concerned, he always did. whether as vinyl or early itunes or 48/384 (which i am sure must sound decidedly better than 24/192) :-D ...pablo Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.3 on VMware Player System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem Element Fire Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> MusicalFidelity M1PWR -> Totem DreamCatcher Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado PS500e pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
pablolie wrote: > i got the 24/192 on hdtracks indeed. the other one must be the '98 > version. > > funny we're talking bill evans. i am just playing "best of bill evans", > and i love it, and i just checked and it's a [gasp] 192k MP3 from my > dark early iTunes days :-D to me that shows it's primarily about the > performance and the recording, and only marginally whether it's 16/44 or > 24/192... > > 17257 AAARRRG! 192kbps!? Not even 256kbps!? I dunno pablolie, but I'm sure your audiophile card just got revoked... Didn't ya hear, N.Y. said 'MP3 sounds like sh*t' (http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/permalink/2014/03/11/pono). :-) Carry on. Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
Squeezemenicely wrote: > Archimago as usual your views and research are a very interesting read. > > Being a listener with relatively good hearing, I have often asked myself > if there really is a difference between a CD flac and 24/96. Often it is > the better remaster that makes the "big" difference. > > Also maybe the placebo effect, still sometimes I prefer the 24/96files. > The difference is slight, but somehow it seems there is more audible > space in the higher frequencies - no idea how to put it - probably > sounds silly anyway. > I find it is best heard on a solo violin, it sounds a bit different - > but it it is difficult to pinpoint. > > But, truthfully the difference is pretty small - so no real reason to > throw away all CDs and only buy hires. > > Sure the industry is now hoping to have something that will actually > sell music again - since Streaming does not offer hires (yet). > > The most interesting point is, how the human mind works - how we see and > hear things differently - if we want to, or are told to do so... Thanks for the note "squeezemenicely". Glad that you've had a chance to listen and compare between the different bit depths and sample rates. As expected, the difference is small and like you said, not worth throwing out the CDs... (In fact, often old CDs will sound better than remasters on a good sound system.) I think in time as folks have a good listen, they will realize the "realist" position which has been reiterated time and again in the literature that differences are small if even noticeable. Not the dramatic changes the peddlers want to portray. Nothing wrong with desiring hi-res versions for one's peace of mind owning the "best" available, I suppose. I just hope the public can be educated enough to recognize the importance of better sounding masters... Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
Julf wrote: > Good luck with that - they seem to belong to the "science is only good > when it supports our views" club... > > > > Excellent! What Sibelius piece, and who is conducting? Vancouver Symphony tonight is 'Bramwell Tovey' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bramwell_Tovey) conducting the -Valse Triste-. I must admit I don't have a recording of this in my library so will see how I like it. Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
RonM wrote: > I see there are two releases available on Amazon, 2008 and 1998, both > purporting to be remasterings. Do you have a recommendation? > > I also see that HD Tracks has a 48/24 version for sale, I wonder if that > suffers from the same faults as your 192/24?. > > r. i got the 24/192 on hdtracks indeed. the other one must be the '98 version. funny we're talking bill evans. i am just playing "best of bill evans", and i love it, and i just checked and it's a [gasp] 192k MP3 from my dark early iTunes days :-D to me that shows it's primarily about the performance and the recording, and only marginally whether it's 16/44 or 24/192... 17257 +---+ |Filename: cover_96x96_p.png| |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17257| +---+ ...pablo Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.3 on VMware Player System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem Element Fire Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> MusicalFidelity M1PWR -> Totem DreamCatcher Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado PS500e pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
Julf wrote: > Except when they are just conversions from 44.1/16 Oops I forgot about those gems. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
ralphpnj wrote: > One thing that has been touched upon but not delved into is the fact > that many of the high resolution downloads available on both HDTracks > and Pono are labeled as "remastered" when in actual fact they are not > really remastered but just repackaged versions of previously available > high resolution releases, e.g. either DVD-A or SACD. Except when they are just conversions from 44.1/16 "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
One thing that has been touched upon but not delved into is the fact that many of the high resolution downloads available on both HDTracks and Pono are labeled as "remastered" when in actual fact they are not really remastered but just repackaged versions of previously available high resolution releases, e.g. either DVD-A or SACD. I don't know about you but when I see the label "remastered" I assume (yes I know one should never assume anything) that it means that the original master tapes (for older analog recordings) or the original master digital files (for digital recordings) have been used to produce a new master and a new A to D conversion. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
Squeezemenicely wrote: > Also maybe the placebo effect, still sometimes I prefer the 24/96files. > The difference is slight, but somehow it seems there is more audible > space in the higher frequencies - no idea how to put it - probably > sounds silly anyway. > I find it is best heard on a solo violin, it sounds a bit different - > but it it is difficult to pinpoint. > > But, truthfully the difference is pretty small - so no real reason to > throw away all CDs and only buy hires. It shouldn't. A violin at 20kHz can produce overtones but these are already maybe 60dB down to the rest. Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
Mnyb wrote: > That's a thing about science the results are true even if you dont like > them or believe in them . > > extremely annoying when your job is to push/peddle opinions or if your > are elected just because your disconect with reality suits a large > voting population ? I don't want to derail this thread into a political discussion so I'll add one comment and that's it: Mnyb you have the US mistaken for Sweden - members of the US Congress and Senate don't answer to the voters, they answer to and obey their campaign contributors. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
There is also a factor with badly desiged equipment, a DAC or AV amp could actually sound different with diffrent source formats , how is it with DSD for example . High end or not , bad design can pop up anywhere . But high end is actually a more likely place more cultish design done by ear instead of measurements . That's why blogs as arhimogos or NwAudioGuy (or whats he's moniker ) are important , the magazines should call out bad design more often . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
Archimago as usual your views and research are a very interesting read. Being a listener with relatively good hearing, I have often asked myself if there really is a difference between a CD flac and 24/96. Often it is the better remaster that makes the "big" difference. Also maybe the placebo effect, still sometimes I prefer the 24/96files. The difference is slight, but somehow it seems there is more audible space in the higher frequencies - no idea how to put it - probably sounds silly anyway. I find it is best heard on a solo violin, it sounds a bit different - but it it is difficult to pinpoint. But, truthfully the difference is pretty small - so no real reason to throw away all CDs and only buy hires. Sure the industry is now hoping to have something that will actually sell music again - since Streaming does not offer hires (yet). The most interesting point is, how the human mind works - how we see and hear things differently - if we want to, or are told to do so... LMS 7.9.0 on Wandboard (SoA) Synology DS-410j NAS Squeezebox Touch, Squeezebox Boom, Squeezebox Radio, HifiBerry PicorePlayer Schiit - BIFROST Dac Spotify Premium iPhone: iPeng - iPad: Squeezepad, iPengHD Squeezemenicely's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=41812 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
ralphpnj wrote: > I believe that every member of the US Congress and Senate is a charter > member of the "science is only good when it supports our views" club. That's a thing about science the results are true even if you dont like them or believe in them . extremely annoying when your job is to push/peddle opinions or if your are elected just because your disconect with reality suits a large voting population ? Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
Julf wrote: > Good luck with that - they seem to belong to the "science is only good > when it supports our views" club... I believe that every member of the US Congress and Senate is a charter member of the "science is only good when it supports our views" club. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
Archimago wrote: > Plus there's *no way* I can honestly let Michael Fremer and Lavorgna > drag up the ghost of the Oohashi paper after a decade and a half or just > declare the Meyer-Moran stuff "debunked" like this as if they know what > they're talking about! Good luck with that - they seem to belong to the "science is only good when it supports our views" club... > I tend to listen to more live classical than recorded as I have seasons > tickets to the local symphony... In fact some Sibelius, Prokofiev, > Bruckner tomorrow night. Excellent! What Sibelius piece, and who is conducting? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
pablolie wrote: > > (2) Grover Washington - Winelight. i actually seem to defualt to the > 192/24, seems an ounce better, perhaps a better master tape or a little > volume boost. > ... > Interesting you mentioned this one in 24/192. One of the few 192kHz DVD-A rips I've actually kept in the native format instead of downsampling; sounds excellent! Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
Ralph: Indeed the high resolution audio stuff has become heated of late. But in this activity and interest, hopefully reasonably rational discussion can take place so as to at least "nudge" towards change that could be beneficial. Plus there's *no way* I can honestly let Michael Fremer and Lavorgna drag up the ghost of the Oohashi paper after a decade and a half or just declare the Meyer-Moran stuff "debunked" like this as if they know what they're talking about! At least I've said my peace for what it's worth on Pono, HRA, and the importance of the mastering. Time to take a break from the "musings", enjoy some music and maybe measure my room response or something over the next few weeks :-). Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
Nicely done Archimago I'm always amazed at the tempest in a teapot that high resolution audio has become. I say this because the vast majority of people listen to their music with those freebie headphones that come with their smart phones. That is when they are actually listening to a song or album that they downloaded or ripped. For the remainder of the time they are more than likely listening to the audio track from youtube video. And when their not using those crappy earphones then they are listening to the those tiny speakers in either their phone, tablet or computer. So much for any kind of "sound quality". Reminds me of the fact that many people spend hours watching stretched, standard resolution video on their fancy HDTVs when the high definition version is just a button push away. As for the issue of dynamic range compression I'll repeat what I've been saying for years - start listening to either jazz or classical music since neither of these genres suffers from the effects of the loudness war. Just want to let you know that the Pono player sounds great when playing a Pono branded high resolution remaster with the latest Apple freebie earphones! :) Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
Of the 20 or so albums I was potentially interested in from HD Tracks, most had actually a -worse- DR than the best CD available according to DR Database! Obviously I can only go by the albums I was interested in. There were a couple that seemed to offer a superior DR, these were American Idiot and Pure Heroine, and I am happy with those. Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
pablolie wrote: > > > (3) John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman - one of my favorite recordings of > all time. i prefer the 16/44 rip, the 192/24 seems artificially sharp at > worst and pointlessly volume boosted at best, sounding a bit like a DDD > CD from 1990AD (shiver). I see there are two releases available on Amazon, 2008 and 1998, both purporting to be remasterings. Do you have a recommendation? r. LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC3) Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm speakers Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.) Radio (wifi) - home office Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment UE Radio - awaiting deployment Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others), Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook) RonM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17029 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
and the other question is... has listening to a good 16/44 recording ever imposed a limit of my full enjoyment of a great performance? there are several recordings i own in two versions: the first ripped from the original CD i owned (16/44 flac), the second the HDtracks version at 24/192, and in one case i also have a car friendly 320k MP3. (1) Bill Evans - Waltz for Debby. one of the greatest live recordings ever. adore it. but given the limitations imposed by the original recording, i will be damned if i can hear a difference between the 192/24 and the 320k MP3 (let alone the 16/44 flac). i have tried - someone plays the different versions to me. i love them all, but it seems a random act to try to tell them apart. (2) Grover Washington - Winelight. i actually seem to defualt to the 192/24, seems an ounce better, perhaps a better master tape or a little volume boost. (3) John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman - one of my favorite recordings of all time. i prefer the 16/44 rip, the 192/24 seems artificially sharp at worst and pointlessly volume boosted at best, sounding a bit like a DDD CD from 1990AD (shiver). ...pablo Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.3 on VMware Player System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem Element Fire Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> MusicalFidelity M1PWR -> Totem DreamCatcher Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado PS500e pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
darrenyeats wrote: > If I were at some point to hear a convincing demonstration (probably > also involving sighted and blind) of an audible difference between 16/44 > versus hi-res, then I'd change my position. Simples. Indeed. The only people I'll chat with about this stuff now is friends and I'll point people just getting interested in the right directions. I can't be bothered to argue with people whi have no interest in reality any more. 'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb) probedb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7825 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
darrenyeats wrote: > These internet arguments are tiring. I just take a personal approach. So > far I've decided through my own listening (some sighted some blind) that > lossless 16/44 is better than Spotify (albeit slightly) but I've not > heard any convincing demonstration of an audible difference between > 16/44 versus hi-res despite trying. > > If I were at some point to hear a convincing demonstration (probably > also involving sighted and blind) of an audible difference between 16/44 > versus hi-res, then I'd change my position. Simples. +1 we may need a drake equation for the probability of finding a worthwhile hirez release :) Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
These internet arguments are tiring. I just take a personal approach. So far I've decided through my own listening (some sighted some blind) that lossless 16/44 is better than Spotify (albeit slightly) but I've not heard any convincing demonstration of an audible difference between 16/44 versus hi-res despite trying. If I were at some point to hear a convincing demonstration (probably also involving sighted and blind) of an audible difference between 16/44 versus hi-res, then I'd change my position. Simples. Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?
Thanks guys for the discussions over the last few weeks... Lots of heated discussions over the last while from Pono apologists vs. tech/general sites! Time to go a little beyond the superficial and look at some literature and summarize all I really need to say about HRA I think... :-) ' MUSINGS: What Is The Value of High Resolution Audio?' (http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/01/musings-what-is-value-of-high.html) Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103034 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
