Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
AndyC_772;239070 Wrote: You just need to zoom in a bit more to see the difference: ___|---|___|---|___|---|___|---|___|--- vs /--\/--|\__/-|\___/|---\___/--- Nice post! -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
ratso wrote: WOW. i bought a squeezebox. i was excited about it. i sent it out to be modded because mostly i was curious. i could afford the mod and i didn't spend a whole boatload of money on it. i like it. would it hold up to an a/b comparison? no it probably wouldn't. does that mean i should be miserable and unhappy? nope. i still enjoy my music. i don't think power cords or cables do one damn thing for sound. i bought blue jean cables because they're a little nicer than lamp cord and radio shack interconnects. i am pretty sure they don't sound any better but i'm happy. i dont believe that external power sources sound any better but mine sure looks cool. buying new toys is fun. getting excited and trying things against your better judgment is fun. i dont believe in isolation platforms or feet buy mine look great. i dont believe in arguing against the validity of a/b testing but i also think that sometimes misses the point. i dont believe in copper vs. silver, cryogenics (?) or superiority of tubes. some people like to argue that all of the above make their gear SOUND better even though they wont actually test it to support their arguments. who cares? be happy. some people like to argue that all of the above are true and that others are idiots for buying them. who cares? it wasnt you that bought it. why stomp on someone else for being happy. ps - when (if) i can afford a transporter, i'm leaving it alone. Good post! Who cares? Be happy! - great quote! R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
Funny how threads pertaining to 3rd party mods,accessories,and the like are recieved with such passion here. I'd like to see a SlimDevices forum convention just to witness the carnage. Can you imagine what it would be like to have all here in the same room discussing the merits/demerits of Bybee filters etc? OMG..duck! . -- haunyack Transporter - BK R200.2 - Vandersteen 3A Signature. (Listening room) SB3 (RWA analog) - Rotel RB1070 - BW Matrix 805. (Bedroom) Fridgidare - Mirror Pond pale ale - easy chair w/remote - irritated neighbors. haunyack's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9721 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
Robin Bowes;238725 Wrote: servies wrote: Robin Bowes;238680 Wrote: I don't really understand what you're saying here, but it sounds like the tired, old bits is bits argument. It's not as simple as that, as has been discussed many times here on this forum, and on countless other forums/lists. R. Yeah yeah I know, quantum mechanics etc. etc... No, nothing as esoteric as that. Most DACs must recover the timing information from the bitstream. If that isn't done correctly it affects the audio. I'll leave you research the issue more. R. Then I'll leave it up to you to find the differences between the following bitstreams: 11001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011 and 11001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011 -- servies There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary and those who don't. servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
servies;238861 Wrote: Then I'll leave it up to you to find the differences between the following bitstreams: 11001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011 and 11001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011 Mind you, I'm not telling that there can't be a difference between a quality CD player and an el cheapo DVD player, but if the bitstream is the same, then the bitstream is the same. But probably it won't be the same... Bit differences are unlikely to be the (sole) difference between expensive and cheap transports. Like the man says, research it a bit more ;) -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others 'Last.fm group: people who don't listen to any of last.fm's top artists' (http://www.last.fm/group/People+who+don%27t+listen+to+any+of+last.fm%27s+top+artists) SB+, EAR V20, Heybrook Sextets plus some other stuff SB3, Shek d2, Ming-Da MC84-C, Harbeth HL-P3ES adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
If you look more closely, the streams may look like: and 00011000000011010111 -- AndyC_772 AndyC_772's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
AndyC_772;238872 Wrote: If you look more closely, the streams may look like: and 00011000000011010111 So these bitstreams are different..., then there possibly will be a difference in the sound. That's exactly what I said. I didn't say that the generated bitstreams for both players are the same, only that when the bitstreams are the same, that there can be no difference in sound. -- servies There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary and those who don't. servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
Sorry, perhaps I wasn't too clear. My point is that the bit streams I've posted could in fact represent exactly the same data as the ones you've posted - just sampling the SPDIF input at more frequent intervals to show that, with a poor quality driver, the bits aren't all exactly the same width, nor do they occur with perfect, unchanging regularity. -- AndyC_772 AndyC_772's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
servies;238874 Wrote: ... when the bitstreams are the same, that there can be no difference in sound. I know that several other people have already tried to point out the error here, but I'll have another go... This statement is unfortunately false in the context of the digital output of a CD player (or SB, etc). Thats because the output signal contains clock (timing) as well as data information, and the receiving DAC has to try to extract both timing and data from a single waveform. If that waveform is imperfect (which it ALWAYS will be) then it becomes more or less difficult for the DAC to recover both. Some DACs, by design, are relatively immune to timing errors, however most are not. The resulting sound will therefore be noticeably different depending on the quality of the digital source, even if the data bits are identical. This is entirely different from, say, a TCP/IP connection, or an IDE disc connection, where the data transmission takes place entirely in a digital domain and the only possible errors are bit errors (which are likely to be corrected and fixed anyway). HTH Ceejay -- ceejay ceejay's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=148 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
Okay, then we're saying the same, but I've misunderstood you and I couldn't make clear what I meant. To be clear about what I'm saying, I'm talking about the signal/bitstream that enters the cable directly after the CD/DVD player. If that's the same there can be no difference. Ofcourse there probably will be differences if the elcheapo CD player gives incorrect timing signals or has more (not corrected) read errors. -- servies There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary and those who don't. servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
Marantz CD63: [image: http://www.cawte.nildram.co.uk/Jitter/cd63.jpg] SB3: [image: http://www.cawte.nildram.co.uk/Jitter/sb3.jpg] Both deliver the same pattern of ones and zeroes - but I doubt anyone would suggest that the two signals were 'the same', nor that either signal is 'perfect'. -- AndyC_772 AndyC_772's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
servies;238891 Wrote: There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary and those who don't. I find your signature line most ironic ;) Adam -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others 'Last.fm group: people who don't listen to any of last.fm's top artists' (http://www.last.fm/group/People+who+don%27t+listen+to+any+of+last.fm%27s+top+artists) SB+, EAR V20, Heybrook Sextets plus some other stuff SB3, Shek d2, Ming-Da MC84-C, Harbeth HL-P3ES adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
servies wrote: Robin Bowes;238725 Wrote: servies wrote: Robin Bowes;238680 Wrote: I don't really understand what you're saying here, but it sounds like the tired, old bits is bits argument. It's not as simple as that, as has been discussed many times here on this forum, and on countless other forums/lists. R. Yeah yeah I know, quantum mechanics etc. etc... No, nothing as esoteric as that. Most DACs must recover the timing information from the bitstream. If that isn't done correctly it affects the audio. I'll leave you research the issue more. R. Then I'll leave it up to you to find the differences between the following bitstreams: 11001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011 and 11001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011 Those are not bitstreams, they are strings of the digits '1' and '0'. Here are some links that might help you understand things better: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spdif Quote: S/PDIF is used to transmit digital signals of a number of formats, the most common being the 48 kHz sample rate format used in DAT, and the 44.1 kHz format used in CD audio. In order to support both systems, as well as others that might be needed, the format has no defined data rate. Instead the data is sent using Biphase mark code, which has either one or two transitions for every bit, allowing the original word clock to be extracted from the signal itself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphase_mark_code http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/1916/CMP/WP-34 Quote: The SONET standard states that Jitter is defined as the short-term variations of a digital signal's significant instants from their ideal positions in time. Significant instants could be (for example) the optimum sampling instants. The Fiber Channel standard simply defines jitter as The deviation from the ideal timing of an event. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
Robin Bowes;238996 Wrote: Those are not bitstreams, they are strings of the digits '1' and '0'. Yeah, but then tell me how I should represent a bitstream with pure text... Ok, I'm getting creative...: signal A: __|--|_|--|__|--|_|-|_|-- signal B: __|--|_|--|__|--|_|-|_|-- Sorry but I've never been very good in ascii art... So, where's the difference between the above signals? Here are some links that might help you understand things better: Been there, seen it, bought the t-shirt... -- servies There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary and those who don't. servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
servies wrote: Robin Bowes;238996 Wrote: Those are not bitstreams, they are strings of the digits '1' and '0'. Yeah, but then tell me how I should represent a bitstream with pure text... Ok, I'm getting creative...: signal A: __|--|_|--|__|--|_|-|_|-- signal B: __|--|_|--|__|--|_|-|_|-- Sorry but I've never been very good in ascii art... So, where's the difference between the above signals? Here are some links that might help you understand things better: Been there, seen it, bought the t-shirt... ... but still don't get it. Nevermind, keep at it, you'll get there eventually. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
servies;239038 Wrote: Yeah, but then tell me how I should represent a bitstream with pure text... Ok, I'm getting creative...: signal A: __|--|_|--|__|--|_|-|_|-- signal B: __|--|_|--|__|--|_|-|_|-- Sorry but I've never been very good in ascii art... So, where's the difference between the above signals? You just need to zoom in a bit more to see the difference: ___|---|___|---|___|---|___|---|___|--- vs |--|||--||__|-|||---|__|--- -- AndyC_772 AndyC_772's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
WOW. i bought a squeezebox. i was excited about it. i sent it out to be modded because mostly i was curious. i could afford the mod and i didn't spend a whole boatload of money on it. i like it. would it hold up to an a/b comparison? no it probably wouldn't. does that mean i should be miserable and unhappy? nope. i still enjoy my music. i don't think power cords or cables do one damn thing for sound. i bought blue jean cables because they're a little nicer than lamp cord and radio shack interconnects. i am pretty sure they don't sound any better but i'm happy. i dont believe that external power sources sound any better but mine sure looks cool. buying new toys is fun. getting excited and trying things against your better judgment is fun. i dont believe in isolation platforms or feet buy mine look great. i dont believe in arguing against the validity of a/b testing but i also think that sometimes misses the point. i dont believe in copper vs. silver, cryogenics (?) or superiority of tubes. some people like to argue that all of the above make their gear SOUND better even though they wont actually test it to support their arguments. who cares? be happy. some people like to argue that all of the above are true and that others are idiots for buying them. who cares? it wasnt you that bought it. why stomp on someone else for being happy. ps - when (if) i can afford a transporter, i'm leaving it alone. -- ratso ratso's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11493 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
oh yeah i also have a power conditioner. ;) -- ratso THE ULTIMATE 2 CH. BUDGET SYSTEM? BOLDER ANALOG MOD SB3 WELBORNE LABS POWER SUPPLY BURSON BUFFER EMOTIVA BPA-1 MONOBLOCKS x4 PROMITHEUS TVC PASSIVE PREAMP GALLO REF. 3.1 MONSTER CABLE POWER CONDITIONER BLUE JEANS CABLES ratso's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11493 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
servies;239038 Wrote: Yeah, but then tell me how I should represent a bitstream with pure text... Ok, I'm getting creative...: signal A: __|--|_|--|__|--|_|-|_|-- signal B: __|--|_|--|__|--|_|-|_|-- Sorry but I've never been very good in ascii art... So, where's the difference between the above signals? Been there, seen it, bought the t-shirt... Servies, the thing you're missing here is that two types of information are transmitted simultaneously by the S/PDIF stream - a string of 1's and 0s, which is almost always transmitted flawlessly, and a clock signal, which the DAC recovers using the transitions of the incoming signal. When the edges are not perfectly sharp that recovered clock has minor timing variations (called jitter). If the DAC uses that reconstructed clock for its D-A (which almost all DACs do), those slight timing errors translate into distortion in the analogue output. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
Hey Ratso, I think you are onto something. Everybody isn't it about the music? Sure some people will have to learn the hard way that they may have wasted money or been taken in by snake oil. But isn't this all part of our hobby? Looking for what makes our system sound better to us. I think that the marketing departments of the equipment companies have us just where they want us, in a state of constant unhappiness about our music and our systems. It is certainly what is driving the current audio markets. All of us need to get back to what really matters, the music and what sounds good to us. Not how much it costs so it has to be better, because in the end it is either better or it isn't no matter what the price. If a $2000 interconnect does not make your system sound better to you it is not a good interconnect for you it is just an expensive one. It is also not bad, again just expensive. Price does not determine what is good or bad, how it sounds in your system to you determines if it is bad or good. What determines if it is expensive for what it does is if another product makes you happy for less money! -- iPhone iPhone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
opaqueice wrote: Robin Bowes;238491 Wrote: I sometimes wish those of you who are so quick to jump down peoples' throats would take a chill pill and consider that maybe, just maybe there may be some truth in these reports. No one doubts the reports have some truth to them - in fact I'm sure they are absolutely correct. The question is whether the change is in the sound waves emanating from the speakers or is confined to the space between the listener's ears. No, it's not; that's *your* question. I really don't understand why that second possibility is regarded with such horror by audiophiles, why so many are so certain it can't be, and therefore that their findings must apply to everyone else. (The OP of this thread was very reasonable and didn't fall into that trap.) And conversely, I don't understand why you insist on pushing your all digital sources are same down everybody's throats. They're not. And the differences are not always noticeable in short-term comparison testing. I really don't understand you regard this possibility with such horror. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
to think that all digital sources sound the same is at least odd if not flying in the face of reason and in my case, experience. try this get one of those cheap multi dvd players in the uk I've seen them for as little as £29.99 [thats not going to break the bank] then feed a decent dac [not necessarily expensive] the digital output of the cheap dvd and a top notch cdp in my experience and others the differences are absolutely clear leaving no margin for indecision. As I recall this was the same argument raised about amps in the 70's it was wrong then and wrong now. If your unable to distinguish between digital sources the issue lies elsewhere and not with the digital sources. -- zanash Acoustician and builder of interesting cables zanash's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12157 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
zanash;238647 Wrote: to think that all digital sources sound the same is at least odd if not flying in the face of reason and in my case, experience. try this get one of those cheap multi dvd players in the uk I've seen them for as little as £29.99 [thats not going to break the bank] then feed a decent dac [not necessarily expensive] the digital output of the cheap dvd and a top notch cdp in my experience and others the differences are absolutely clear leaving no margin for indecision. As I recall this was the same argument raised about amps in the 70's it was wrong then and wrong now. If your unable to distinguish between digital sources the issue lies elsewhere and not with the digital sources. Well, if the cheap DVD player is reading 1110110110011 iso 1110100110011 (which it should have) because of some checks it's not doing because of it's cheap hardware and the top notch cdp is reading it correctly because it DOES do those checks, then you can argue that the digital source is not the same... -- servies servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
servies;238661 Wrote: Well, if the cheap DVD player is reading 1110110110011 iso 1110100110011 (which it should have) because of some checks it's not doing because of it's cheap hardware and the top notch cdp is reading it correctly because it DOES do those checks, then you can argue that the digital source is not the same... All that goes right out the wondow when you introduce noise from lesser powersupplys and low kvality parts. But hey a better transporter dossnet turn beegees into mark knofler if its that kind of improvment you are listning for only the sound will become more and more real as you strip the sound from coloration and noise. -- harmonic harmonic's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6879 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
servies wrote: zanash;238647 Wrote: to think that all digital sources sound the same is at least odd if not flying in the face of reason and in my case, experience. try this get one of those cheap multi dvd players in the uk I've seen them for as little as £29.99 [thats not going to break the bank] then feed a decent dac [not necessarily expensive] the digital output of the cheap dvd and a top notch cdp in my experience and others the differences are absolutely clear leaving no margin for indecision. As I recall this was the same argument raised about amps in the 70's it was wrong then and wrong now. If your unable to distinguish between digital sources the issue lies elsewhere and not with the digital sources. Well, if the cheap DVD player is reading 1110110110011 iso 1110100110011 (which it should have) because of some checks it's not doing because of it's cheap hardware and the top notch cdp is reading it correctly because it DOES do those checks, then you can argue that the digital source is not the same... I don't really understand what you're saying here, but it sounds like the tired, old bits is bits argument. It's not as simple as that, as has been discussed many times here on this forum, and on countless other forums/lists. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
Robin Bowes;238680 Wrote: I don't really understand what you're saying here, but it sounds like the tired, old bits is bits argument. It's not as simple as that, as has been discussed many times here on this forum, and on countless other forums/lists. R. Yeah yeah I know, quantum mechanics etc. etc... harmonic;238675 Wrote: All that goes right out the window when you introduce noise from lesser powersupplys and low kvality parts. Agreed, but I just gave 1 example of how the data could come out incorrectly... -- servies There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary and those who don't. servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
servies wrote: Robin Bowes;238680 Wrote: I don't really understand what you're saying here, but it sounds like the tired, old bits is bits argument. It's not as simple as that, as has been discussed many times here on this forum, and on countless other forums/lists. R. Yeah yeah I know, quantum mechanics etc. etc... No, nothing as esoteric as that. Most DACs must recover the timing information from the bitstream. If that isn't done correctly it affects the audio. I'll leave you research the issue more. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
I've got one of those £30 dvd players (for holiday travel!) - I'll try it tomorrow in a shootout with the SB3... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... ...SB3+TACT+Altmann+MF DACXV3/Linn tri-amped Aktiv 5.1 system and some very expensive cables ;o) Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
liffy99 wrote: Ouch ! But I stand by my own observations (and my other half, who doesn't listen anywhere near as much as I do, walked in and said that sounds clearer to a well-known track). I have tried using a linear power supply as opposed to the wall wart and could not reliably tell a difference so please don't think I'm suckered into psychologically induced improvements. I've been doing a lot of listening recently to various system changes (class T amps, bi-amping the Prodigies, substituting transformer wire for expensive hose pipe cables and more) so am getting used to spotting differences. As I said, to begin with I was disappointed in an A/B comparison but something has definitely changed in the three weeks I've been running a standard and modified SB3 side by side. Sure, perhaps the local power station has been having a really good fortnight all of a sudden and the mains is cleaner, but then I would have heard an improvement to the regular SB3 wouldn't I ? But thanks for the observatons. I really am right on the fence here. I have a variety of sources and amps and have tried various combinations. My listening environment is not ideal, and my ears are not what they used to be, but I am perhaps more trained in listening musically having studied Acoustics (I have a degree in Electroacoustics) and worked in pro audio for some time. I have no more investment financially or emotionally in any one over the others, i.e. have no reason to prefer any one over the others. I have found that, in most cases, AB testing does *not* show up any significant differences. But, on extended listening, I have a quite clear preference. The differences liffy99 describes are in line with my experiences. My preferred combination is just more musical. I sometimes wish those of you who are so quick to jump down peoples' throats would take a chill pill and consider that maybe, just maybe there may be some truth in these reports. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
Robin Bowes;238491 Wrote: I sometimes wish those of you who are so quick to jump down peoples' throats would take a chill pill and consider that maybe, just maybe there may be some truth in these reports. No one doubts the reports have some truth to them - in fact I'm sure they are absolutely correct. The question is whether the change is in the sound waves emanating from the speakers or is confined to the space between the listener's ears. I really don't understand why that second possibility is regarded with such horror by audiophiles, why so many are so certain it can't be, and therefore that their findings must apply to everyone else. (The OP of this thread was very reasonable and didn't fall into that trap.) -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
Recently had one of my SB3s upgraded (basic digital only) by Bolder Cables so thought I'd share my experience. Rest of system is SB3 digital output to Lyngdorf DAC (part of TDA2200 amp) into Martin Logan Prodigies. I'm UK based. First off, and as I commented to the very helpful Wayne at Bolder, I struggled to hear any difference at all. But three weeks later . . . . . Perhaps it's the modified SB3 having broken in or it's my ears getting to know what to listen to, but over the past couple of nights I managed to stop trying to hear differences and just listened to the music. There are differences, subtle, but significant; 1) Detail retieval It's better, especially at low and mid frequencies. Bass extension remains the same as far as I can tell but more definition has been given to instruments like the acoustic double bass and kick drum - try Patricia Barber's Verse. It's now easier to hear the ambience of the recording venue - I swear I can now hear ceiling reflections that I didn't before for example. Listening to 10 New Songs from Leonard Cohen demonstrated that there is more character to the 70 something's voice whereas before it was almost like listening to an acoustically airbrushed vocal. On this record there are some very close harmonies from partners and backing singers which are now easier to follow. 2) Soundstage Might be a tad deeper but hard to say. It's certainly wider - the fill between speakers is better and there is less tendency for the image to be pulled to the moving coil base sections. Stage width now more often extends beyond the outer edge of the speakers. 3) Imaging One of the most noticeable changes. Best way I can describe it is that it has become a little more 3D. Before there was definitely substantial stage depth and good positioning, but often it sounded like 2 dimensional cardboard cutouts of performers had been placed in relation to each other. You could tell who was behind who but there was relatively little depth to each individual performer. That's now changed and you can almost sense the physical depth of instrument bodies or vocalists. Bottom line is that the whole setup has become even easier to listen to. The differences aren't night and day, and don't show up that well on A/B comparison, but just relax and you'll soon hear the difference. So thanks Wayne - now back to the music . . . . -- liffy99 liffy99's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7832 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
liffy99;238257 Wrote: The differences aren't night and day, and don't show up that well on A/B comparison, but just relax and you'll soon hear the difference. I think that says it all. It is very much like the psychics who can't work their miracles under scientific test conditions because the effect is shy. If everyone involved just takes a few deep breaths, suspends their critical thought processes, and puts their attention elsewhere, the miracles will happen. How much did this lesson cost you? TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
tyler_durden;238348 Wrote: I think that says it all. It is very much like the psychics who can't work their miracles under scientific test conditions because the effect is shy. If everyone involved just takes a few deep breaths, suspends their critical thought processes, and puts their attention elsewhere, the miracles will happen. How much did this lesson cost you? TD B-I-N-G-O.. -- jeffmeh jeffmeh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3986 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB3 Bolder Mods
Ouch ! But I stand by my own observations (and my other half, who doesn't listen anywhere near as much as I do, walked in and said that sounds clearer to a well-known track). I have tried using a linear power supply as opposed to the wall wart and could not reliably tell a difference so please don't think I'm suckered into psychologically induced improvements. I've been doing a lot of listening recently to various system changes (class T amps, bi-amping the Prodigies, substituting transformer wire for expensive hose pipe cables and more) so am getting used to spotting differences. As I said, to begin with I was disappointed in an A/B comparison but something has definitely changed in the three weeks I've been running a standard and modified SB3 side by side. Sure, perhaps the local power station has been having a really good fortnight all of a sudden and the mains is cleaner, but then I would have heard an improvement to the regular SB3 wouldn't I ? But thanks for the observatons. -- liffy99 liffy99's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7832 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=39684 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
