Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló - results

[Ike Devolder]

Op 14-03-12 21:46, Laurent Carlier schreef:
> Le 14 mars 2012 14:56, Massimiliano Torromeo <
> massimiliano.torro...@gmail.com> a écrit :
> 
>> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 2:36 PM, SanskritFritz 
>> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Alexander Rødseth 
>> wrote:
 The voting period for György Balló (City-busz) has ended and I'm
 pleased to welcome him as a new TU.
>>>
>>> Go hungarians! :)
>>> ngaba and city-busz, is there any other hungarian in the team?
>>>
>>> Congratulations, György!
>>
>> Congratulations and welcome!
>>
> 
> Congratulations, and of course Welcome!

Great, thanks for joining too, and congratulations :)

-- 
Ike



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Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló - results

[Laurent Carlier]

Le 14 mars 2012 14:56, Massimiliano Torromeo <
massimiliano.torro...@gmail.com> a écrit :

> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 2:36 PM, SanskritFritz 
> wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Alexander Rødseth 
> wrote:
> >> The voting period for György Balló (City-busz) has ended and I'm
> >> pleased to welcome him as a new TU.
> >
> > Go hungarians! :)
> > ngaba and city-busz, is there any other hungarian in the team?
> >
> > Congratulations, György!
>
> Congratulations and welcome!
>

Congratulations, and of course Welcome!

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló - results

[Massimiliano Torromeo]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 2:36 PM, SanskritFritz  wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Alexander Rødseth  wrote:
>> The voting period for György Balló (City-busz) has ended and I'm
>> pleased to welcome him as a new TU.
>
> Go hungarians! :)
> ngaba and city-busz, is there any other hungarian in the team?
>
> Congratulations, György!

Congratulations and welcome!

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló - results

[SanskritFritz]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Alexander Rødseth  wrote:
> The voting period for György Balló (City-busz) has ended and I'm
> pleased to welcome him as a new TU.

Go hungarians! :)
ngaba and city-busz, is there any other hungarian in the team?

Congratulations, György!

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló - results

[Andrea Scarpino]

On Wednesday 14 March 2012 14:06:01 Alexander Rødseth wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> The voting period for György Balló (City-busz) has ended and I'm
> pleased to welcome him as a new TU.
> 
> The results are:
> yes: 18
> no: 1
> abstain: 3
> total: 22 (quorum has been met)
> 
> Instructions for new TUs are available at our wiki and I'll also
> provide him with additional info (including our secret code to the
> suitcase with the red button).
BBS and Flyspray accounts updated.

Welcome aboard György!

-- 
Andrea

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló - results

[Seblu]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Alexander Rødseth  wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> The voting period for György Balló (City-busz) has ended and I'm
> pleased to welcome him as a new TU.
>
> The results are:
> yes: 18
> no: 1
> abstain: 3
> total: 22 (quorum has been met)
>
> Instructions for new TUs are available at our wiki and I'll also
> provide him with additional info (including our secret code to the
> suitcase with the red button).
>
Welcome!

-- 
Sébastien Luttringer
www.seblu.net

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Rashif Ray Rahman]

On 4 March 2012 00:12, Ionut Biru  wrote:
> Unity is only a Canonical project, not a project that can be used by anyone.

It's just about accessibility, so as to not deprive anyone and allow
no-one to say "there is no foo in Arch" :D

But I guess if it's that much PITA then it should be forgotten about.


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[小龙 陈]

Hi György,

I think you would be an awesome addition to the TU team. Your Unity
packages are very good (and saved me a lot of work from repackaging
everything :D).

Since you mentioned the patched Xorg server and compiz, I'd just like to
point out that the patched Xorg patches are no longer needed after
Xorg 1.12.0 is released. Unity uses utouch, which uses Xinput 2.2 that
Canonical backported to Xorg 1.11.4. The next version of Xorg will have
it built in.

I agree that my repo is pretty risky; one little error in the packaging,
and then nothing works (especially with compiz) :).

Good luck!
Xiao-long Chen

> Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 17:13:11 +0100
> From: ballog...@gmail.com
> To: aur-general@archlinux.org
> Subject: Re: [aur-general]    TU Application - György Balló
> 
> 
> > Is there a separate repo? Do you intend to start one otherwise? I
> > would really like to see unity accessible for Arch users.
> 
> Unity 2D is available in my [ayatana] repo[1] along with indicators. To
> provide x86_64 packages, I'll need a build server.
> 
> Unity is a more difficult task, because it depends on a forked compiz
> 0.9, and I unable get it working with the upstream xorg-server.
> Chenxiaolong[2] works also on making Unity available for Arch Linux. His
> packages are mostly based on mine, but he maintain much more patched
> packages (including xorg-server, glib, even if not all patches are
> really needed), which makes his repo more risky.
> 
> [1] http://ayatana.info/
> [2] https://github.com/chenxiaolong/Unity-for-Arch
> 
> --
> György Balló
> 
  

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Ionut Biru]

On 03/03/2012 04:15 PM, Rashif Ray Rahman wrote:
> On 3 March 2012 11:38, Balló György  wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> thanks for the question.
>>
>>> I looked at your AUR packages and saw that you are maintaining the
>>> unity desktop. I never used this desktop environment, but as a
>>> curiosity is it something you want to eventually bring into [community] ?
>>
>> I worked a lot on making Unity and indicators usable on Arch Linux, but
>> I don't want to add any of these packages[1] into [community], because
>> Ubuntu heavily patched gtk2, gtk3[2], metacity and compiz, and it's
>> impossible to build and/or use some packages with the upstream,
>> unmodified packages. They patched a lot of other packages also for
>> better integration into the panel and the launcher.
>>
>> So if GNOME developers accept some must have patches, then I could
>> imagine to add these packages, but until it does not happen, it's better
>> to keep them in a separated repo. (However I'm not sure that Ubuntu sent
>> all required patches to upstream yet.)
>>
>>
>> [1] Nearly all packages in ubuntu-unity and apps-unity directories on
>> https://github.com/City-busz/Arch-Linux-Repository
>> [2] E.g.: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=658563
> 
> Is there a separate repo? Do you intend to start one otherwise? I
> would really like to see unity accessible for Arch users.
> 

I don't want to see an official repo just for unity because it does not
work with vanilla dependencies. Fedora, Opensuse  have tried to provide
it in their repositories but dropped it when they released that is too
hard to maintain it, because Canonical doesn't even try to push their
changes upstream.

Unity is only a Canonical project, not a project that can be used by anyone.

> Anyway, I don't know what all the fuss on workarounds is about, but I
> view "workarounds" as temporary fixes, nothing harmful. It is
> perfectly valid to work around limitations for which there is no
> current solution.
> 
> 
> --
> GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1


-- 
Ionuț



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Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Balló György]

> Is there a separate repo? Do you intend to start one otherwise? I
> would really like to see unity accessible for Arch users.

Unity 2D is available in my [ayatana] repo[1] along with indicators. To
provide x86_64 packages, I'll need a build server.

Unity is a more difficult task, because it depends on a forked compiz
0.9, and I unable get it working with the upstream xorg-server.
Chenxiaolong[2] works also on making Unity available for Arch Linux. His
packages are mostly based on mine, but he maintain much more patched
packages (including xorg-server, glib, even if not all patches are
really needed), which makes his repo more risky.

[1] http://ayatana.info/
[2] https://github.com/chenxiaolong/Unity-for-Arch

--
György Balló



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Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Karol Blazewicz]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Rashif Ray Rahman  wrote:
> Is there a separate repo? Do you intend to start one otherwise? I
> would really like to see unity accessible for Arch users.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Unity ?

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Rashif Ray Rahman]

On 3 March 2012 11:38, Balló György  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> thanks for the question.
>
>> I looked at your AUR packages and saw that you are maintaining the
>> unity desktop. I never used this desktop environment, but as a
>> curiosity is it something you want to eventually bring into [community] ?
>
> I worked a lot on making Unity and indicators usable on Arch Linux, but
> I don't want to add any of these packages[1] into [community], because
> Ubuntu heavily patched gtk2, gtk3[2], metacity and compiz, and it's
> impossible to build and/or use some packages with the upstream,
> unmodified packages. They patched a lot of other packages also for
> better integration into the panel and the launcher.
>
> So if GNOME developers accept some must have patches, then I could
> imagine to add these packages, but until it does not happen, it's better
> to keep them in a separated repo. (However I'm not sure that Ubuntu sent
> all required patches to upstream yet.)
>
>
> [1] Nearly all packages in ubuntu-unity and apps-unity directories on
> https://github.com/City-busz/Arch-Linux-Repository
> [2] E.g.: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=658563

Is there a separate repo? Do you intend to start one otherwise? I
would really like to see unity accessible for Arch users.

Anyway, I don't know what all the fuss on workarounds is about, but I
view "workarounds" as temporary fixes, nothing harmful. It is
perfectly valid to work around limitations for which there is no
current solution.


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Balló György]

Hi,

thanks for the question.

> I looked at your AUR packages and saw that you are maintaining the
> unity desktop. I never used this desktop environment, but as a
> curiosity is it something you want to eventually bring into [community] ?

I worked a lot on making Unity and indicators usable on Arch Linux, but
I don't want to add any of these packages[1] into [community], because
Ubuntu heavily patched gtk2, gtk3[2], metacity and compiz, and it's
impossible to build and/or use some packages with the upstream,
unmodified packages. They patched a lot of other packages also for
better integration into the panel and the launcher.

So if GNOME developers accept some must have patches, then I could
imagine to add these packages, but until it does not happen, it's better
to keep them in a separated repo. (However I'm not sure that Ubuntu sent
all required patches to upstream yet.)


[1] Nearly all packages in ubuntu-unity and apps-unity directories on
https://github.com/City-busz/Arch-Linux-Repository
[2] E.g.: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=658563

--
György Balló



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Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Alex Belanger]

Hi,

I'm also in favor of György.

He is the best candidate I have seen lately and his presentation is clean.
I would like someone like him around to help the community.

Also, if I pay attention to the other posts, my opinion is... the AUR is a
HELPER tool.
It's only used as a time saver, but it doesn't dictates how the AUR works
in any way.
Meaning when there's a change to the AUR system, so must the tools adapt to
that change.

I think it's their job to support split packages, as long as we can provide
some sort of "coding/design standard" to help them a bit with their task.
It's a known feature, it's also an interesting feature.
The more split packages we have, it's gonna pressure the Yaourt team to do
something about it.

So yeah.

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 9:34 PM, Stéphane Gaudreault
wrote:

> Le 2012-03-01 13:00, Balló György a écrit :
>
>  Hello everybody,
>>
>> I'm applying to be a Trusted User.
>>
>> I'm a 24 years old Hungarian web developer, and I'm using Arch Linux as
>> my main system since 2010 summer. Before that I used a Debian-based distro
>> for one year. In my free time I like surfing on the net, contributing to
>> OpenStreetMap, bicycling, hiking, take photos about trams, and of course,
>> packaging.
>>
>> I really like Arch Linux's transparency, the pacman and the build system,
>> the website and the great wiki. I'm maintaining packages[1] a long time
>> ago, and I already contributed to wiki by creating a page about
>> libcanberra[2], and updated, extended some other articles.
>>
>> I reported many issues[3] with GNOME packages (including upstream and
>> packaging bugs) to make Arch Linux better. I usually try to find the
>> solution and send patch to upstream if needed before open bug reports. I
>> helped to Ioni e.g. on updating some C# packages, and I also cooperated
>> with AndyRTR on splitting out extensions from libreoffice
>> package.
>>
>> I currently have 150 packages in AUR with a total of 5775 votes. I
>> already maintain more than 200 packages as source packages on github[4] and
>> as built i686 packages in my [ayatana] repo[5]. I don't want to move all of
>> these packages to [community], only the popular ones. I always try to make
>> the best packages and I hate poorly written PKGBUILDs.
>>
>> Some packages that I would like to add to [community]:
>> - deja-dup (115 votes)
>> - gwibber (299 votes)
>> - pinta (186 votes)
>>
>> Some orphan packages in [community] that I could adopt:
>> - agave
>> - buoh
>>
>> My goal with becoming a TU is to provide more popular GTK+ applications
>> in [community] and keep GNOME stable and consistent by fixing packages on
>> large updates if needed. I hope that I could support Arch Linux as a TU in
>> the next months and years.
>>
>> Alexander Rødseth is my sponsor.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> György Balló
>>
>> My PGP key: https://raw.github.com/City-**busz/Arch-Linux-Repository/**
>> master/ballog...@gmail.com-**public.asc
>>
>> [1] 
>> https://aur.archlinux.org/**packages.php?SeB=m&K=City-busz
>> [2] 
>> https://wiki.archlinux.org/**index.php/Libcanberra
>> [3] https://bugs.archlinux.org/**index.php?project=1&status[]=&**
>> opened=City-busz&do=index
>> [4] 
>> https://github.com/City-busz/**Arch-Linux-Repository
>> [5] http://ayatana.info/
>>
>>
>>
> Hi György,
>
> Thank you for applying. I think you will be a great contributor.
>
> I looked at your AUR packages and saw that you are maintaining the unity
> desktop. I never used this desktop environment, but as a curiosity is it
> something you want to eventually bring into [community] ?
>
> I am looking forward to having you join the TUs team.
>
> Stéphane
>

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Stéphane Gaudreault]

Le 2012-03-01 13:00, Balló György a écrit :

Hello everybody,

I'm applying to be a Trusted User.

I'm a 24 years old Hungarian web developer, and I'm using Arch Linux as my main 
system since 2010 summer. Before that I used a Debian-based distro for one 
year. In my free time I like surfing on the net, contributing to OpenStreetMap, 
bicycling, hiking, take photos about trams, and of course, packaging.

I really like Arch Linux's transparency, the pacman and the build system, the 
website and the great wiki. I'm maintaining packages[1] a long time ago, and I 
already contributed to wiki by creating a page about libcanberra[2], and 
updated, extended some other articles.

I reported many issues[3] with GNOME packages (including upstream and packaging 
bugs) to make Arch Linux better. I usually try to find the solution and send 
patch to upstream if needed before open bug reports. I helped to Ioni e.g. on 
updating some C# packages, and I also cooperated with AndyRTR on splitting out 
extensions from libreoffice
package.

I currently have 150 packages in AUR with a total of 5775 votes. I already 
maintain more than 200 packages as source packages on github[4] and as built 
i686 packages in my [ayatana] repo[5]. I don't want to move all of these 
packages to [community], only the popular ones. I always try to make the best 
packages and I hate poorly written PKGBUILDs.

Some packages that I would like to add to [community]:
- deja-dup (115 votes)
- gwibber (299 votes)
- pinta (186 votes)

Some orphan packages in [community] that I could adopt:
- agave
- buoh

My goal with becoming a TU is to provide more popular GTK+ applications in 
[community] and keep GNOME stable and consistent by fixing packages on large 
updates if needed. I hope that I could support Arch Linux as a TU in the next 
months and years.

Alexander Rødseth is my sponsor.

Best regards,
György Balló

My PGP key: 
https://raw.github.com/City-busz/Arch-Linux-Repository/master/ballog...@gmail.com-public.asc

[1] https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?SeB=m&K=City-busz
[2] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Libcanberra
[3] 
https://bugs.archlinux.org/index.php?project=1&status[]=&opened=City-busz&do=index
[4] https://github.com/City-busz/Arch-Linux-Repository
[5] http://ayatana.info/




Hi György,

Thank you for applying. I think you will be a great contributor.

I looked at your AUR packages and saw that you are maintaining the unity 
desktop. I never used this desktop environment, but as a curiosity is it 
something you want to eventually bring into [community] ?


I am looking forward to having you join the TUs team.

Stéphane

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Cédric Girard]

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 9:39 PM, Heiko Baums wrote:

> Am Fri, 02 Mar 2012 23:40:55 +1000
> schrieb Allan McRae :
>
> > Where is it written that you can't do that?  PKGBUILDs are bash.  Any
> > valid bash is a valid PKGBUILD.
>
> So, what if I would build a package which contains an .install file
> with an `rm -Rf /` in its post_install() function and upload it to AUR?
> That's a totally valid package, totally valid bash, which can easily be
> uploaded to AUR and flawlessly installed with makepkg and every AUR
> helper. Is it a qualitative good package?
>
> So, it's obvious that a valid bash is not the only quality criterion.
>
>

Quality and validity are two different things.

-- 
Cédric Girard

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Heiko Baums]

Am Fri, 02 Mar 2012 23:40:55 +1000
schrieb Allan McRae :

> Where is it written that you can't do that?  PKGBUILDs are bash.  Any
> valid bash is a valid PKGBUILD.

So, what if I would build a package which contains an .install file
with an `rm -Rf /` in its post_install() function and upload it to AUR?
That's a totally valid package, totally valid bash, which can easily be
uploaded to AUR and flawlessly installed with makepkg and every AUR
helper. Is it a qualitative good package?

So, it's obvious that a valid bash is not the only quality criterion.

Heiko

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Heiko Baums]

Am Fri, 2 Mar 2012 18:49:47 +
schrieb Xyne :

> The choice
> of Bash was myopic and lazy in my opinion, and something that should
> be reversed as far as possible, not glorified.

Don't say that too loud, because Gentoo's ebuilds are principally bash,
too, but Gentoo has its own functions to allegedly provide sort of a
quality assurance. The problem with this is, that it's a lot harder to
write ebuilds than PKGBUILDs.

Heiko

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Xyne]

Xyne wrote:

> Allan McRae wrote:
> 
> > > Since when it is a good packaging quality to upload packages which
> > > can't be installed?  
> > 
> > They can be installed.  Or do you mean can not be installed by an AUR
> > helper?  In which case you are still wrong due to the extra dependency line.
> 
> I think this point should be stressed. Yaourt and other AUR helpers do not
> determine the validity of a PKGBUILD. If you can download the tarball from the
> AUR and build the package with makepkg, then the PKGBUILD is *valid* as far as
> the AUR is concerned.
> 
> Having said that, I disagree that the criteria for a *good* PKGBUILD is only
> that it build. PKGBUILDs should try to conform to certain patterns and not
> exploit the fact that they are written in Bash (unless absolutely necessary,
> and even then only reluctantly). All metapackaging tools would have been much
> easier to write if PKGBUILDs were perfectly parsable without arbitrary code
> execution. The choice of Bash was myopic and lazy in my opinion, and something
> that should be reversed as far as possible, not glorified.
> 

Hmmm, I should have finished reading all of the threads before replying. This
would have been more appropriate elsewhere. Sorry.

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Xyne]

Allan McRae wrote:

> > Since when it is a good packaging quality to upload packages which
> > can't be installed?  
> 
> They can be installed.  Or do you mean can not be installed by an AUR
> helper?  In which case you are still wrong due to the extra dependency line.

I think this point should be stressed. Yaourt and other AUR helpers do not
determine the validity of a PKGBUILD. If you can download the tarball from the
AUR and build the package with makepkg, then the PKGBUILD is *valid* as far as
the AUR is concerned.

Having said that, I disagree that the criteria for a *good* PKGBUILD is only
that it build. PKGBUILDs should try to conform to certain patterns and not
exploit the fact that they are written in Bash (unless absolutely necessary,
and even then only reluctantly). All metapackaging tools would have been much
easier to write if PKGBUILDs were perfectly parsable without arbitrary code
execution. The choice of Bash was myopic and lazy in my opinion, and something
that should be reversed as far as possible, not glorified.

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Allan McRae]

On 02/03/12 23:40, Allan McRae wrote:
> On 02/03/12 23:16, Heiko Baums wrote:
>> Am Fri, 02 Mar 2012 22:01:59 +1000
>> schrieb Allan McRae :
>>
>>> I see what was done there...  makedepends in split packages probably
>>> need to become depends when built as individual packages.
>>>
>>> @György:  Let that be a lesson in being careful when making
>>> reactionary changes to packages.  Don't worry... it is a surprisingly
>>> common occurrence when people first become a TU and start getting bug
>>> reports. There are always annoying and persistent users that think
>>> they are right, 
>>
>> If I'm so annoying and I'm so wrong then explain why his packages are
>> so good and I'm so wrong, but this time try it with facts.
> 
> Fact.  I never said you were annoying or wrong in that sentence.
> Someone is a bit sensitive... probably because he is annoying and wrong.
> 
>> Explain to me e.g. - I know I already asked that Stéphane - why it is
>> such a good packaging quality to have two totally different depends
>> arrays in one PKGBUILD of which one is also prefixed with a "true &&".
> 
> That fixed the issues you were complaining about with AUR helpers unable
> to find dependencies.  So hang on...  this was a complete solution to
> having a split package in the AUR while still being able to use an AUR
> helper.  So what was your problem again?  Apart from ignorance...

I'll put my hand up and say I am partially wrong here.  This broke AUR
helpers that blindly source the PKGBUILD in order to get the dependency
list.  I.e. broken AUR helpers became further broken...  The AUR helper
I use worked because it very sensibly does not do that and ends up with
the same (working) dependency list as was displayed on the AUR.

In conclusion... a good hack that did not work in shitty AUR helpers.

>> Where in the Arch Packaging Standards is this written down? In which
>> PKGBUILD proto can this be found.
> 
> Where is it written that you can't do that?  PKGBUILDs are bash.  Any
> valid bash is a valid PKGBUILD.  Show me an PKGBUILD proto that shows
> specifying different dependencies for i686 and x86_64?  Given there is
> none, should all packages doing this be removed?   Note that also screws
> AUR helpers.
> 
>> Since when it is a good packaging quality to upload packages which
>> can't be installed?
> 
> They can be installed.  Or do you mean can not be installed by an AUR
> helper?  In which case you are still wrong due to the extra dependency line.
> 
>> Just explain it factually to me. And don't tell me anything about "not
>> officially supported". Neither the helpers nor the split packages are
>> "officially supported". This is not an argument in this case.
> 
> It is a valid PKGBUILD that provided split packages with a modified
> dependency line to fix AUR helper issues.
> 
>>> so you are better of not making reactionary changes
>>> to packages. It is important to learn when a change does not need
>>> implemented, and this change was probably not needed when no TU had
>>> posted about having issues with the split packages.
>>
>> This change was neither reactionary nor unneeded, just because it was
>> not possible to install this package. So this change was needed. So
>> don't mix up the facts.
> 
> Absolute shit...  the package installed just fine.
> 
>> In the repos like [community] split packages are supported and are no
>> problem. And in the repos there's no need for such dirty workarounds. In
>> AUR it is totally different. And that is just a fact, even if you don't
>> want to hear that.
> 
> I agree that in the AUR it is totally different to the repos.  You have
> to use workarounds in the AUR.  So everything said in that paragraph is
> true.
> 
> Allan
> 
> 
> 

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Magnus Therning]

This thread is kind of fun to read, from a sociological perspective :)
 It is however sad when one considers that all the energy put into
writing these emails could have been put into either

- address AUR's shortcomings when it comes to split packages, or
- address the different AUR builders inability to handle split
packages as they appear in AUR.

/M

-- 
Magnus Therning                      OpenPGP: 0xAB4DFBA4
email: mag...@therning.org   jabber: mag...@therning.org
twitter: magthe               http://therning.org/magnus

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Heiko Baums]

Am Fri, 02 Mar 2012 10:22:46 -0300
schrieb Angel Velásquez :

> Heiko,
> 
> I've always had several discussions with you, now Gaetan, and many
> people seems to have disagree with your opinion.

If they disagree with my opinion, they can happily explain why. I
explained my concerns. But I only got answers like "grow up", "not
officially supported", etc., not to mention the offences, particularly
those of Gaetan.

I don't say that I'm always right. And having concerns does not mean
that a person about whom I have concerns is really that bad. But it
means that one should have a closer look at him before he is fully
trusted. But what I have read in the answers looked rather like an
unreflecting hype.

And I also know that there are people who every now and then do agree
with me. Just the people who disagree are usually the loudest. And once
a TU even told me personally face to face that my comments are usually
worth reading. I don't remember it literally.

I also discovered several times, that I was offended here on the
mailing lists by a lot of people. But I still gave my arguments. And lo
and behold after a while the discussion got factual and it turned out
in the end that I wasn't so wrong and that I wasn't the only one with
this opinion.

So you indeed should sometimes think about my comments. I really don't
write so many times, at least I don't give so many times my concerns.
But if I give them, then there's usually a reason for that. Of course, I
can be wrong. But then explain it and don't tell me anything about I
should grow up and it was inappropriately or the like.

That's the point.

> A personal advice is when so much people are saying that you're wrong
> at least try to think about it and try to put on the otherside of the
> line.

Why? I mean, of course, I think about it, but only if I get some
reasonable arguments. On the other hand the fact that so many people
are saying that I'm wrong doesn't necessarily mean that I'm this wrong.
That can mean that those people are just the loudest and that those
people probably haven't thought about my arguments or even haven't read
them completely.

Like I said before, I'm certainly not always right, but sometimes.

> Gyorgy have good skills, and you personally are nothing to say that he
> doesn't have it,

Because I tried to install one of his packages, looked at those
PKGBUILDs, found several issues, and written comments about those
problems in the AUR. This was, btw., shortly before he has written his
TU application. So I didn't check his AUR packages because of his TU
application.

And from those PKGBUILDs which indeed looked pretty weird I had my
concerns that he is probably not the right one for being a TU. That was
not meant personally, that was just because of what I saw.

> are you a TU? Dev? were you a Fellow, I don't
> remember on those sides, so please, stop complaining,

Where am I complaining? I gave my concerns about someone who has
written a TU application. And I said that either split package support
should be added to AUR or that split packages shouldn't be uploaded to
AUR. How is that complaining?

And, no, I'm neither a TU or a dev, yet. Does this mean that I mustn't
say my opinion? I don't think so. And that doesn't mean that I don't
have any knowledge.

> start
> contributing,

I already do this. 21 packages in AUR, a not too short part of the code
in /etc/rc.sysinit, a few lines - only a very few, I admit that - of
code in the vanilla kernel. Is this not contributing?

> if you can't do this, then you will be remembered always
> like the noising user who like to break our balls.

No, only people who either don't read my arguments completely, have
prejudices against me or just dislike me for whatever reason will
remember me as a noising user. Other people probably know that I'm not
just noising.

Like I said in another e-mail:
As the question, so the answer.

Heiko

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Allan McRae]

On 02/03/12 23:16, Heiko Baums wrote:
> Am Fri, 02 Mar 2012 22:01:59 +1000
> schrieb Allan McRae :
> 
>> I see what was done there...  makedepends in split packages probably
>> need to become depends when built as individual packages.
>>
>> @György:  Let that be a lesson in being careful when making
>> reactionary changes to packages.  Don't worry... it is a surprisingly
>> common occurrence when people first become a TU and start getting bug
>> reports. There are always annoying and persistent users that think
>> they are right, 
> 
> If I'm so annoying and I'm so wrong then explain why his packages are
> so good and I'm so wrong, but this time try it with facts.

Fact.  I never said you were annoying or wrong in that sentence.
Someone is a bit sensitive... probably because he is annoying and wrong.

> Explain to me e.g. - I know I already asked that Stéphane - why it is
> such a good packaging quality to have two totally different depends
> arrays in one PKGBUILD of which one is also prefixed with a "true &&".

That fixed the issues you were complaining about with AUR helpers unable
to find dependencies.  So hang on...  this was a complete solution to
having a split package in the AUR while still being able to use an AUR
helper.  So what was your problem again?  Apart from ignorance...

> Where in the Arch Packaging Standards is this written down? In which
> PKGBUILD proto can this be found.

Where is it written that you can't do that?  PKGBUILDs are bash.  Any
valid bash is a valid PKGBUILD.  Show me an PKGBUILD proto that shows
specifying different dependencies for i686 and x86_64?  Given there is
none, should all packages doing this be removed?   Note that also screws
AUR helpers.

> Since when it is a good packaging quality to upload packages which
> can't be installed?

They can be installed.  Or do you mean can not be installed by an AUR
helper?  In which case you are still wrong due to the extra dependency line.

> Just explain it factually to me. And don't tell me anything about "not
> officially supported". Neither the helpers nor the split packages are
> "officially supported". This is not an argument in this case.

It is a valid PKGBUILD that provided split packages with a modified
dependency line to fix AUR helper issues.

>> so you are better of not making reactionary changes
>> to packages. It is important to learn when a change does not need
>> implemented, and this change was probably not needed when no TU had
>> posted about having issues with the split packages.
> 
> This change was neither reactionary nor unneeded, just because it was
> not possible to install this package. So this change was needed. So
> don't mix up the facts.

Absolute shit...  the package installed just fine.

> In the repos like [community] split packages are supported and are no
> problem. And in the repos there's no need for such dirty workarounds. In
> AUR it is totally different. And that is just a fact, even if you don't
> want to hear that.

I agree that in the AUR it is totally different to the repos.  You have
to use workarounds in the AUR.  So everything said in that paragraph is
true.

Allan

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Angel Velásquez]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 02/03/12 10:06, Heiko Baums wrote:
> Am Fri, 02 Mar 2012 07:11:21 -0500 schrieb Stéphane Gaudreault
> :
> 
>> STOP.
>> 
>> Heiko, you had the chance to express you opinion about this 
>> application (and you did it in a totally inappropiate way).
> 
> I didn't do it in a inappropriate way. I did it in a factual way
> and explained why I am concerned and what was going wrong.
> 
> I even said that I probably do him wrong with some of my
> questions. Nevertheless it's fact that this package couldn't be
> built. You can't argue it away.
> 
> It was some other people who thought to need to offend me in an 
> inappropriate way. So they get an adequate answer.
> 
>> REPEAT: Please stop such nonconstructive messages.
> 
> Sorry, but my concerns aren't nonconstructive. But as the question,
> so the answer.
> 
> Stop offending me, discuss in a factual way with me and you will
> get factual answers from me.
> 
> If I'm so wrong with my concerns then explain it to me. I only got 
> answers like "grow up", "AUR helpers are not officially supported"
> even if split packages are not supported, neither officially nor 
> unofficially, by AUR, "Wow, I never seen somebody who maintains so
> many packages" etc.
> 
> Quantity is not the same as quality, btw.
> 
> Give factual reasons why his packages are so good and I'm so wrong,
> and everything is good. Otherwise think if he is really that good
> and trustworthy resp. that his knowledge is already good enough.
> 
> E.g. explain to me why a package needs to have two completely
> different depends arrays one also with a "true &&" before. For me
> this looks like bad packaging, sorry.
> 
> Btw., I didn't want to say that he personally is not trustworthy.
> But I'm not sure if he has sufficient knowledge, yet.
> 
> Heiko

Heiko,

I've always had several discussions with you, now Gaetan, and many
people seems to have disagree with your opinion.

A personal advice is when so much people are saying that you're wrong
at least try to think about it and try to put on the otherside of the
line.

Gyorgy have good skills, and you personally are nothing to say that he
doesn't have it, are you a TU? Dev? were you a Fellow, I don't
remember on those sides, so please, stop complaining, start
contributing, if you can't do this, then you will be remembered always
like the noising user who like to break our balls.

Now please let continue with Gyorgy's application.


- -- 
Angel Velásquez
angvp @ irc.freenode.net
Linux Counter: #359909
http://www.angvp.com
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Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Heiko Baums]

Am Fri, 02 Mar 2012 22:01:59 +1000
schrieb Allan McRae :

> I see what was done there...  makedepends in split packages probably
> need to become depends when built as individual packages.
> 
> @György:  Let that be a lesson in being careful when making
> reactionary changes to packages.  Don't worry... it is a surprisingly
> common occurrence when people first become a TU and start getting bug
> reports. There are always annoying and persistent users that think
> they are right, 

If I'm so annoying and I'm so wrong then explain why his packages are
so good and I'm so wrong, but this time try it with facts.

Explain to me e.g. - I know I already asked that Stéphane - why it is
such a good packaging quality to have two totally different depends
arrays in one PKGBUILD of which one is also prefixed with a "true &&".

Where in the Arch Packaging Standards is this written down? In which
PKGBUILD proto can this be found?

Since when it is a good packaging quality to upload packages which
can't be installed?

Just explain it factually to me. And don't tell me anything about "not
officially supported". Neither the helpers nor the split packages are
"officially supported". This is not an argument in this case.

> so you are better of not making reactionary changes
> to packages. It is important to learn when a change does not need
> implemented, and this change was probably not needed when no TU had
> posted about having issues with the split packages.

This change was neither reactionary nor unneeded, just because it was
not possible to install this package. So this change was needed. So
don't mix up the facts.

In the repos like [community] split packages are supported and are no
problem. And in the repos there's no need for such dirty workarounds. In
AUR it is totally different. And that is just a fact, even if you don't
want to hear that.

Heiko

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Heiko Baums]

Am Fri, 02 Mar 2012 07:11:21 -0500
schrieb Stéphane Gaudreault :

> STOP.
> 
> Heiko, you had the chance to express you opinion about this
> application (and you did it in a totally inappropiate way).

I didn't do it in a inappropriate way. I did it in a factual way and
explained why I am concerned and what was going wrong.

I even said that I probably do him wrong with some of my questions.
Nevertheless it's fact that this package couldn't be built. You can't
argue it away.

It was some other people who thought to need to offend me in an
inappropriate way. So they get an adequate answer.

> REPEAT: Please stop such nonconstructive messages.

Sorry, but my concerns aren't nonconstructive. But as the question, so
the answer.

Stop offending me, discuss in a factual way with me and you will get
factual answers from me.

If I'm so wrong with my concerns then explain it to me. I only got
answers like "grow up", "AUR helpers are not officially supported" even
if split packages are not supported, neither officially nor
unofficially, by AUR, "Wow, I never seen somebody who maintains so many
packages" etc.

Quantity is not the same as quality, btw.

Give factual reasons why his packages are so good and I'm so wrong, and
everything is good. Otherwise think if he is really that good and
trustworthy resp. that his knowledge is already good enough.

E.g. explain to me why a package needs to have two completely different
depends arrays one also with a "true &&" before. For me this looks like
bad packaging, sorry.

Btw., I didn't want to say that he personally is not trustworthy. But
I'm not sure if he has sufficient knowledge, yet.

Heiko

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Stéphane Gaudreault]

Le 2012-03-02 06:17, Heiko Baums a écrit :

Am Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:59:56 +1100
schrieb Gaetan Bisson:


Like I said, nobody cares.

Oh, you are nobody? Interesting.


If you have problems reading between the lines, try growing up.

Between the lines are spaces otherwise there would be other lines. I'd
say, the one who needs to grow up is you, so that you can get rid of
your childish and bad attitude.

Heiko

STOP.

Heiko, you had the chance to express you opinion about this application 
(and you did it in a totally inappropiate way). Now, let's TUs discuss 
and vote.


REPEAT: Please stop such nonconstructive messages.

Stéphane

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Allan McRae]

On 02/03/12 21:38, Heiko Baums wrote:
> Am Fri, 02 Mar 2012 00:27:39 +0100
> schrieb Balló György :
> 
>> I understand Heiko's opinion and now I replaced these hackish split
>> packages by individual packages even if it's requires more maintenance
>> time on updates. So now users should able to install all of my
>> packages with AUR helpers, however I don't use these tools at all. I
>> hope that AUR once will have better support for split packages.
> 
> Thanks, looks a lot better now. But there's still an issue.
> 
> Your makedepends should all be depends since they are runtime, not
> only buildtime dependencies.
> 

I see what was done there...  makedepends in split packages probably
need to become depends when built as individual packages.

@György:  Let that be a lesson in being careful when making reactionary
changes to packages.  Don't worry... it is a surprisingly common
occurrence when people first become a TU and start getting bug reports.
There are always annoying and persistent users that think they are
right, so you are better of not making reactionary changes to packages.
It is important to learn when a change does not need implemented, and
this change was probably not needed when no TU had posted about having
issues with the split packages.

Now that you have had it happen to you, I trust that you will not make
the same mistake again and so will be an even better TU!  I have seen
some of your other contributions from the sidelines and think you are a
good candidate.

Good luck,
Allan

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Hilton Medeiros]

On 03/02/2012 08:17 AM, Heiko Baums wrote:
> Am Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:59:56 +1100
> schrieb Gaetan Bisson :
> 
>> Like I said, nobody cares.
> 
> Oh, you are nobody? Interesting.
> 
>> If you have problems reading between the lines, try growing up.
> 
> Between the lines are spaces otherwise there would be other lines. I'd
> say, the one who needs to grow up is you, so that you can get rid of
> your childish and bad attitude.
> 
> Heiko
> 

Seriously Heiko, you got some issues. Maybe some kind of disorder like
Asperger[1]. You should look for a doctor if you can't sort this out by
yourself. No joke, seek some help and stop bullying Arch devs/TUs.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome



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Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Heiko Baums]

Am Fri, 02 Mar 2012 00:27:39 +0100
schrieb Balló György :

> I understand Heiko's opinion and now I replaced these hackish split
> packages by individual packages even if it's requires more maintenance
> time on updates. So now users should able to install all of my
> packages with AUR helpers, however I don't use these tools at all. I
> hope that AUR once will have better support for split packages.

Thanks, looks a lot better now. But there's still an issue.

Your makedepends should all be depends since they are runtime, not
only buildtime dependencies.

And libindicate doesn't build, but I'll file a comment to AUR for this.
On the first glance I'm not sure if this is a downstream or an upstream
issue.

Still remains the issue with indicator-messages-gtk2 having
indicator-messages as a dependency. Here you should comply with the
naming conventions. Build two or three different packages like I
explained. -gtk2 implies that this is only the GTK2 port.

Heiko

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Heiko Baums]

Am Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:59:56 +1100
schrieb Gaetan Bisson :

> Like I said, nobody cares.

Oh, you are nobody? Interesting.

> If you have problems reading between the lines, try growing up.

Between the lines are spaces otherwise there would be other lines. I'd
say, the one who needs to grow up is you, so that you can get rid of
your childish and bad attitude.

Heiko

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Gaetan Bisson]

[2012-03-02 01:44:02 +0100] Heiko Baums:
> Not me.

Like I said, nobody cares.

> But you know what you want to say?

If you have problems reading between the lines, try growing up.

-- 
Gaetan

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Balló György]

Hi,

> which languages do you use to develop web?
I mainly work with HTML/CSS, but currently I'm learning
JavaScript/jQuery and PHP.

--
György Balló



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Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Heiko Baums]

Am Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:36:18 +1100
schrieb Gaetan Bisson :

> [2012-03-02 00:13:33 +0100] Heiko Baums:
> > Are you sure that your attitude is the right one?
> 
> Yes.

Not me.

> > And that comes from a dev who should know about packaging standards,
> > policies and packaging quality.
> 
> Such as quoting variables that may contain whitespace?

But you know what you want to say?

Heiko

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Gaetan Bisson]

[2012-03-02 00:13:33 +0100] Heiko Baums:
> Are you sure that your attitude is the right one?

Yes.

> And that comes from a dev who should know about packaging standards,
> policies and packaging quality.

Such as quoting variables that may contain whitespace?

-- 
Gaetan

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Heiko Baums]

Am Fri, 02 Mar 2012 09:51:16 +1000
schrieb Allan McRae :

> You keep saying "official policies"...  Where is this official policy
> document that says do not use the split PKGBUILD hack to upload
> packages to the AUR?
> 
> Yes, the AUR does not support split packages.  But there is nothing
> actually wrong about using "true && pkgname=()" to provide one. It is
> still a perfectly valid PKGBUILD.  Not being supported by AUR helpers
> is never a benchmark of a valid PKGBUILD...

But as you see in the mentioned example it doesn't work at least in
some cases. And it's just a workaround anyway.

Having no syntax errors in the PKGBUILD and being able to upload it only
with a workaround doesn't mean that it's valid.

So a missing official support for split packages in AUR means for me
that such a PKGBUILD is not valid, at least not the best packaging
quality.

Heiko

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Thomas S Hatch]

On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Balló György  wrote:

> Hello everybody,
>
> I'm applying to be a Trusted User.
>
> I'm a 24 years old Hungarian web developer, and I'm using Arch Linux as my
> main system since 2010 summer. Before that I used a Debian-based distro for
> one year. In my free time I like surfing on the net, contributing to
> OpenStreetMap, bicycling, hiking, take photos about trams, and of course,
> packaging.
>
> I really like Arch Linux's transparency, the pacman and the build system,
> the website and the great wiki. I'm maintaining packages[1] a long time
> ago, and I already contributed to wiki by creating a page about
> libcanberra[2], and updated, extended some other articles.
>
> I reported many issues[3] with GNOME packages (including upstream and
> packaging bugs) to make Arch Linux better. I usually try to find the
> solution and send patch to upstream if needed before open bug reports. I
> helped to Ioni e.g. on updating some C# packages, and I also cooperated
> with AndyRTR on splitting out extensions from libreoffice
> package.
>
> I currently have 150 packages in AUR with a total of 5775 votes. I already
> maintain more than 200 packages as source packages on github[4] and as
> built i686 packages in my [ayatana] repo[5]. I don't want to move all of
> these packages to [community], only the popular ones. I always try to make
> the best packages and I hate poorly written PKGBUILDs.
>
> Some packages that I would like to add to [community]:
> - deja-dup (115 votes)
> - gwibber (299 votes)
> - pinta (186 votes)
>
> Some orphan packages in [community] that I could adopt:
> - agave
> - buoh
>
> My goal with becoming a TU is to provide more popular GTK+ applications in
> [community] and keep GNOME stable and consistent by fixing packages on
> large updates if needed. I hope that I could support Arch Linux as a TU in
> the next months and years.
>
> Alexander Rødseth is my sponsor.
>
> Best regards,
> György Balló
>
> My PGP key:
> https://raw.github.com/City-busz/Arch-Linux-Repository/master/ballog...@gmail.com-public.asc
>
> [1] https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?SeB=m&K=City-busz
> [2] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Libcanberra
> [3]
> https://bugs.archlinux.org/index.php?project=1&status[]=&opened=City-busz&do=index
> [4] https://github.com/City-busz/Arch-Linux-Repository
> [5] http://ayatana.info/
>
>
>
I am excited to see you applying to be a TU, I think you would make a
killer addition to the team. It is somewhat rare that we see someone with
as many packages and as much experience as you apply! I hope the voting
goes well for you!

- Thomas S Hatch

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Allan McRae]

On 02/03/12 09:37, Heiko Baums wrote:
> I just see a PKGBUILD which doesn't apply to the official
> policies.

You keep saying "official policies"...  Where is this official policy
document that says do not use the split PKGBUILD hack to upload packages
to the AUR?

Yes, the AUR does not support split packages.  But there is nothing
actually wrong about using "true && pkgname=()" to provide one. It is
still a perfectly valid PKGBUILD.  Not being supported by AUR helpers is
never a benchmark of a valid PKGBUILD...

Allan

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Heiko Baums]

Am Fri, 02 Mar 2012 09:21:33 +1000
schrieb Allan McRae :

> You do realize who first came up with the workaround for adding split
> packages to the AUR...   Because from memory it was figured out in the
> TU IRC channel.

I don't know, because I'm not in the IRC channels. But if I recall
correctly this workaround was also discussed in the forums and/or the
mailing lists. This was at a time when it was still discussed if AUR
shall support split packages or not.

The package splittest which was meant to test this workaround and to
give a sample PKGBUILD was uploaded to AUR by Harvie, a normal user.
And if I recall correctly it was him who first came up with it. But I
can be wrong.

The problem is if you add a subpackage of a split package into a
depends array as György did it just can't be installed, because AUR
don't know anything about those subpackages, because it doesn't support
split packages. And thus the AUR wrappers can't find them. So it's
not possible to install those packages.

Heiko

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Heiko Baums]

Am Thu, 01 Mar 2012 23:10:11 +
schrieb Peter Lewis :

> On Thursday 01 Mar 2012 23:35:16 Heiko Baums wrote:
> > 4. AUR is meant for providing PKGBUILDs for other users, so that
> > they don't need to do the same work again (writing the PKGBUILDs).
> > Since e.g. indicator-messages can't be installed by other users -
> > at least not with yaourt
> 
> Sounds like you should file a bug against yaourt.

Why would I? Split packages are not supported by the AUR why would an
AUR wrapper support those dirty workarounds? I don't see a bug in
yaourt, I just see a PKGBUILD which doesn't apply to the official
policies. Or it's a bug (missing feature) in AUR. If those PKGBUILDs
would apply to the official policies those workarounds wouldn't be
necessary anyway.

Nevertheless as long as AUR doesn't support split packages they should
be avoided in AUR.

> I didn't think that anything about the AUR was officially supported.

The official support you mean is somewhat different. The support you
mean is that the devs don't care about packages in AUR and don't
support them, so that they can't be blamed for an AUR package not
running correctly with packages from the official repos. That doesn't
mean that the AUR is just a wastebin.

But on the AUR homepage you can read this:
"Contributed PKGBUILDs must conform to the Arch Packaging Standards
otherwise they will be deleted!"

Since AUR doesn't support split packages, package splitting has to
be treated as an exception in AUR if it belongs to the Arch Packaging
Standards. And even two different depends arrays don't belong to those
Packaging Standards. One depends array in a PKGBUILD is totally
sufficient. There's no depends array for AUR and a different one for
pacman.

Nevertheless, a TU (keep in mind, Trusted User) should be able to write
clean packages which can be installed by everyone and which have a
certain level of quality whether they are officially supported by the
devs or not.

Heiko

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Balló György]

I understand Heiko's opinion and now I replaced these hackish split
packages by individual packages even if it's requires more maintenance
time on updates. So now users should able to install all of my packages
with AUR helpers, however I don't use these tools at all. I hope that
AUR once will have better support for split packages.

--
György Balló



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Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Allan McRae]

On 02/03/12 08:35, Heiko Baums wrote:
> If he wants to maintain packages then he should do it in a way that
> they apply to the official policies. And split packages are officially
> NOT supported by AUR, not even with this dirty workaround, which is
> fact, well known and often discussed, so I don't have to prove this. So
> his packages don't apply to the official policies.

You do realize who first came up with the workaround for adding split
packages to the AUR...   Because from memory it was figured out in the
TU IRC channel.

Allan

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Heiko Baums]

Am Fri, 2 Mar 2012 09:51:41 +1100
schrieb Gaetan Bisson :

> [2012-03-01 23:35:16 +0100] Heiko Baums:
> > I guess you are kidding, aren't you?
> 
> Nobody cares what you guess.
> 
> Just quit posing for an expert on everything already.

Are you sure that your attitude is the right one?

I just pointed out that and explained why his packages are in a bad
quality in a way that they can't be installed. And just gave my
concerns about making him a trusted user.

And, yes, I contacted him before in the AUR comments for those packages
and already explained it to him.

If you don't care about that then this is a real pity. And that comes
from a dev who should know about packaging standards, policies and
packaging quality. Just shaking my head about such an arrogance,
ignorance and such an attitude.

Heiko

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Peter Lewis]

On Thursday 01 Mar 2012 23:35:16 Heiko Baums wrote:
> 4. AUR is meant for providing PKGBUILDs for other users, so that they
> don't need to do the same work again (writing the PKGBUILDs). Since
> e.g. indicator-messages can't be installed by other users - at least
> not with yaourt

Sounds like you should file a bug against yaourt.

> And split packages are officially NOT supported by AUR, not even with this
> dirty workaround, which is fact, well known and often discussed, so I don't
> have to prove this. So his packages don't apply to the official policies.

I didn't think that anything about the AUR was officially supported.

Pete.

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Gaetan Bisson]

[2012-03-01 23:35:16 +0100] Heiko Baums:
> I guess you are kidding, aren't you?

Nobody cares what you guess.

Just quit posing for an expert on everything already.

-- 
Gaetan

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Heiko Baums]

Am Thu, 1 Mar 2012 16:27:45 -0500
schrieb Dave Reisner :

> Feel free to provide such PKGBUILDs and actually prove that this can
> be done rather than soapboxing about something that he isn't doing.
> It's just that simple.

I guess you are kidding, aren't you?

1. I'm not soapboxing.
2. I'm not interested in maintaining these packages. I just wanted to
quickly try them which is not possible, since they can't be installed
with yaourt. Try it and you will see.
3. Look at my PKGBUILDs in AUR, particularly linux-fbcondecor
(https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=50924). With this package I
have changed the linux split package from ABS into a single package
which can easily be installed by yaourt. And, yes, this was extremely
easy to do. And then look at his packages I mentioned, and tell me
what's the problem with writing them as clean single packages. I guess,
I don't need to explain to you how to read and correctly write
PKGBUILDs.
4. AUR is meant for providing PKGBUILDs for other users, so that they
don't need to do the same work again (writing the PKGBUILDs). Since
e.g. indicator-messages can't be installed by other users - at least
not with yaourt, like I said, try it - I indeed had to rewrite this
PKGBUILD and all its dependency hell, which György has also written as
split packages, to be able to install this package. And that's not what
AUR is meant for.

If he wants to maintain packages then he should do it in a way that
they apply to the official policies. And split packages are officially
NOT supported by AUR, not even with this dirty workaround, which is
fact, well known and often discussed, so I don't have to prove this. So
his packages don't apply to the official policies.

And since when are two different depends arrays necessary or even make
sense in one PKGBUILD?

Not to mention that he told me that he hasn't time to maintain those
PKGBUILDs if they were written cleanly. He told me that he had to orphan
those packages otherwise. So how shall he have time for being a TU? And
if fixing a package means orphaning it for him what shall I expect from
him if he will be a TU? Will he really fix PKGBUILDs or just orphan
and/or move them to AUR if they contain a bug?

Keep in mind, TU means Trusted User, a user whom every other Arch Linux
user can and has to trust. This implies that one needs to be sure that
the TU is able to write qualitative good PKGBUILDs, because a Linux
distro is expected to provide stable, and well packaged packages.

What will he do on AUR or [community] if he has a lot more rights?

I know, just some questions. Probably I do him wrong with some of these
questions. But the bad packaging quality is fact and doesn't need to be
proven. A closer look at the mentioned packages and a try to install
them with an AUR wrapper is evidence enough.

Heiko

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Dave Reisner]

On Thu, Mar 01, 2012 at 09:16:28PM +0100, Heiko Baums wrote:
> Am Thu, 01 Mar 2012 21:46:41 +0200
> schrieb Ionut Biru :
> 
> > Most GTK2 GTK3 ports are hard to be supported in AUR since most of the
> > time it depends on what packages a user has installed on his system
> > and may be picked different because almost 99% of our users do not
> > compile in clean chroots.
> 
> Why is it hard to support a pure GTK3 port and a pure GTK2 port of a
> package in AUR?
> 
> Just create one package indicator-messages with a ./configure and
> one package indicator-messages-gtk2 with a ./configure --with-gtk=2.
> 
> That's so simple.

Feel free to provide such PKGBUILDs and actually prove that this can be
done rather than soapboxing about something that he isn't doing. It's
just that simple.

d

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Alexander Rødseth]

I am his sponsor indeed, and I am proud to lure forth such a fine candidate.

He has adopted packages in AUR that were moved from [community] because
they were problematic orphans and we (TUs) didn't want to maintain them,
then fixed them up beautifully. My impression is that he doesn't shy away
from "hard" packages, but tackles them head on. As he writes in his
application, he's also active on AUR and has several contributions under
his belt.

Let the discussion period begin. Best of luck György!
-- 
Sincerely,
 Alexander Rødseth
 Arch Linux Trusted User
 (xyproto on IRC, trontonic on AUR)

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Heiko Baums]

Am Thu, 01 Mar 2012 21:46:41 +0200
schrieb Ionut Biru :

> Most GTK2 GTK3 ports are hard to be supported in AUR since most of the
> time it depends on what packages a user has installed on his system
> and may be picked different because almost 99% of our users do not
> compile in clean chroots.

Why is it hard to support a pure GTK3 port and a pure GTK2 port of a
package in AUR?

Just create one package indicator-messages with a ./configure and
one package indicator-messages-gtk2 with a ./configure --with-gtk=2.

That's so simple. There's really no reason to having indicator-messages
(the GTK3 port) as a dependency for indicator-messages-gtk2 (the GTK2
port). In fact a user expects to just having the GTK2 port being
installed if he installs the -gtk2 packge.

In this case he explained that both ports share some files, and that
there are people who want to have installed both ports at the same
time. This is either no problem.

There are two ways of doing this:
Create one package indicator-messages-base which contains the shared
files, one package indicator-messages-gtk2 and one package
indicator-messages-gtk3.

Or:
Create one package indicator-messages which contains both the GTK2 and
the GTK 3 port if there are really people who want to have both at the
same time, one package indicator-messages-gtk2 and one package
indicator-messages-gtk3.

Pretty easy and gives very clean, officially supported PKGBUILDs which
can easily be installed with makepkg as well as the AUR wrappers.

And what does this have to do with a compilation in a clean chroot?
Nothing. It's just bad packaging.

> Having support for that is hard because AUR needs to understand split
> packages and return them using json interface
> 
> I don't recall AUR having support for those and that's why he needs to
> add workarounds.

No, he doesn't need to add such workarounds. As long as AUR doesn't
support split packages PKGBUILDs just can be written as single packges.

Adding such dirty workarounds to AUR packages is even bad packaging.
Where's the problem to just create either one single PKGBUILD which
builds and installs every feature (subpackage) or to create several
single PKGBUILDs for each subpackage? I don't see any problems. And this
was clean and good packaging which is absolutely and officially
supported by AUR and the AUR wrappers. And such packages can flawlessly
be installed. His packages with those dirty workarounds just can't
be installed. It's definitely not possible to install indicator-messages
with yaourt.

In fact I would recommend to patch AUR, so that it detects and declines
PKGBUILDs with such workarounds, if AUR won't be patched to support
split packages.

Heiko

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Ionut Biru]

On 03/01/2012 09:29 PM, Heiko Baums wrote:
> Am Thu, 01 Mar 2012 19:00:52 +0100
> schrieb Balló György :
> 
>> I currently have 150 packages in AUR with a total of 5775 votes. I
>> already maintain more than 200 packages as source packages on
>> github[4] and as built i686 packages in my [ayatana] repo[5]. I don't
>> want to move all of these packages to [community], only the popular
>> ones. I always try to make the best packages and I hate poorly
>> written PKGBUILDs.
> 
> I have just some concerns regarding the quality of your PKGBUILDs as
> you know.
> 
> You have a lot of split packages with this very dirty workaround
> 
> pkgname=package
> true && pkgname=(subpackage1 subpackage2 subpackage3)
> 
> uploaded to AUR, even if AUR and the AUR wrappers like yaourt don't
> support split packages.
> 
> And some of your packages depend on subpackages of those split
> packages, which is the reason that all those packages can't be
> installed at least not with the AUR wrappers because they can't find
> those subpackages on AUR.
> 
> And there are such very weird dependencies in some of your PKGBUILD like
> 
> depends=('libindicator>=0.3.19' 'libindicate>=0.4.90'
> 'libdbusmenu>=0.3.94' 'telepathy-glib>=0.9.0')
> true && depends=('libindicator3>=0.3.19' 'libindicate>=0.4.90'
> 'libdbusmenu-gtk3>=0.3.94' 'telepathy-glib>=0.9.0')
> 
> which totally doesn't make sense and again causes problems.
> 
> See e.g. these packages and their dependencies:
> indicator-messages (https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=32052)
> libdbusmenu (https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=32050)
> 
> And your package naming is at least sometimes inconsistent like this
> one:
> indicator-messages-gtk2
> (https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=54556)
> 
> This implies that it's built against GTK2 and that the GTK2 and only
> the GTK2 version is installed. In fact this package installs the GTK2
> version and the GTK3 version by having indicator-messages, which builds
> and installs the GTK3 version, unnecessarily as a dependency.
> 
> I'm not a TU, but I would expect a much better packaging quality from
> a user whom I can trust instead of such a mess.
> 

Most GTK2 GTK3 ports are hard to be supported in AUR since most of the
time it depends on what packages a user has installed on his system and
may be picked different because almost 99% of our users do not compile
in clean chroots.

> The package indicator-messages as it is now definitely can't be
> installed by yaourt and most likely (I haven't tested this, yet) not
> even by makepkg.
> 
> And I'm absolutely not able to relate to your arguments for this.
> 
> Btw., how do you want to be a TU and do this work if you tell me that
> you're maintaining so many packages that you have no time to write and
> maintain single packages instead of those split packages on AUR which
> are officially supported by AUR and would easily be installable by the
> AUR wrappers?
> 


Having support for that is hard because AUR needs to understand split
packages and return them using json interface

I don't recall AUR having support for those and that's why he needs to
add workarounds.



> Of course, in [community] you can officially build split packages. But,
> as you've written you want to keep most of your packages in AUR.
> 
> So I'm very concerned about your applications. But I don't have to
> decide about that.
> 
> Heiko


-- 
Ionuț



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Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Heiko Baums]

Am Thu, 01 Mar 2012 19:00:52 +0100
schrieb Balló György :

> I currently have 150 packages in AUR with a total of 5775 votes. I
> already maintain more than 200 packages as source packages on
> github[4] and as built i686 packages in my [ayatana] repo[5]. I don't
> want to move all of these packages to [community], only the popular
> ones. I always try to make the best packages and I hate poorly
> written PKGBUILDs.

I have just some concerns regarding the quality of your PKGBUILDs as
you know.

You have a lot of split packages with this very dirty workaround

pkgname=package
true && pkgname=(subpackage1 subpackage2 subpackage3)

uploaded to AUR, even if AUR and the AUR wrappers like yaourt don't
support split packages.

And some of your packages depend on subpackages of those split
packages, which is the reason that all those packages can't be
installed at least not with the AUR wrappers because they can't find
those subpackages on AUR.

And there are such very weird dependencies in some of your PKGBUILD like

depends=('libindicator>=0.3.19' 'libindicate>=0.4.90'
'libdbusmenu>=0.3.94' 'telepathy-glib>=0.9.0')
true && depends=('libindicator3>=0.3.19' 'libindicate>=0.4.90'
'libdbusmenu-gtk3>=0.3.94' 'telepathy-glib>=0.9.0')

which totally doesn't make sense and again causes problems.

See e.g. these packages and their dependencies:
indicator-messages (https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=32052)
libdbusmenu (https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=32050)

And your package naming is at least sometimes inconsistent like this
one:
indicator-messages-gtk2
(https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=54556)

This implies that it's built against GTK2 and that the GTK2 and only
the GTK2 version is installed. In fact this package installs the GTK2
version and the GTK3 version by having indicator-messages, which builds
and installs the GTK3 version, unnecessarily as a dependency.

I'm not a TU, but I would expect a much better packaging quality from
a user whom I can trust instead of such a mess.

The package indicator-messages as it is now definitely can't be
installed by yaourt and most likely (I haven't tested this, yet) not
even by makepkg.

And I'm absolutely not able to relate to your arguments for this.

Btw., how do you want to be a TU and do this work if you tell me that
you're maintaining so many packages that you have no time to write and
maintain single packages instead of those split packages on AUR which
are officially supported by AUR and would easily be installable by the
AUR wrappers?

Of course, in [community] you can officially build split packages. But,
as you've written you want to keep most of your packages in AUR.

So I'm very concerned about your applications. But I don't have to
decide about that.

Heiko

Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Angel Velásquez]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 01/03/12 15:00, Balló György wrote:
> Hello everybody,
> 
> I'm applying to be a Trusted User.
> 
> I'm a 24 years old Hungarian web developer, and I'm using Arch
> Linux as my main system since 2010 summer. Before that I used a
> Debian-based distro for one year. In my free time I like surfing on
> the net, contributing to OpenStreetMap, bicycling, hiking, take
> photos about trams, and of course, packaging.

Hi György,

which languages do you use to develop web? ..

> 
> I really like Arch Linux's transparency, the pacman and the build
> system, the website and the great wiki. I'm maintaining packages[1]
> a long time ago, and I already contributed to wiki by creating a
> page about libcanberra[2], and updated, extended some other
> articles.
> 
> I reported many issues[3] with GNOME packages (including upstream
> and packaging bugs) to make Arch Linux better. I usually try to
> find the solution and send patch to upstream if needed before open
> bug reports. I helped to Ioni e.g. on updating some C# packages,
> and I also cooperated with AndyRTR on splitting out extensions from
> libreoffice package.
> 
> I currently have 150 packages in AUR with a total of 5775 votes. I
> already maintain more than 200 packages as source packages on
> github[4] and as built i686 packages in my [ayatana] repo[5]. I
> don't want to move all of these packages to [community], only the
> popular ones. I always try to make the best packages and I hate
> poorly written PKGBUILDs.
> 
> Some packages that I would like to add to [community]: - deja-dup
> (115 votes) - gwibber (299 votes) - pinta (186 votes)
> 
> Some orphan packages in [community] that I could adopt: - agave -
> buoh
> 
> My goal with becoming a TU is to provide more popular GTK+
> applications in [community] and keep GNOME stable and consistent by
> fixing packages on large updates if needed. I hope that I could
> support Arch Linux as a TU in the next months and years.
> 
> Alexander Rødseth is my sponsor.
> 
> Best regards, György Balló
> 
> My PGP key:
> https://raw.github.com/City-busz/Arch-Linux-Repository/master/ballog...@gmail.com-public.asc
>
>  [1] https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?SeB=m&K=City-busz [2]
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Libcanberra [3]
> https://bugs.archlinux.org/index.php?project=1&status[]=&opened=City-busz&do=index
>
> 
[4] https://github.com/City-busz/Arch-Linux-Repository
> [5] http://ayatana.info/
> 
> 

Impressive, I like your application. Glad to see good candidates
applying to be part of the crew.


- -- 
Angel Velásquez
angvp @ irc.freenode.net
Arch Linux Developer / Trusted User
Linux Counter: #359909
http://www.angvp.com
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Re: [aur-general] TU Application - György Balló

[Ionut Biru]

On 03/01/2012 08:00 PM, Balló György wrote:
> Hello everybody,

Hey
> 
> I'm applying to be a Trusted User.

At last!

> 
> I'm a 24 years old Hungarian web developer, and I'm using Arch Linux as my 
> main system since 2010 summer. Before that I used a Debian-based distro for 
> one year. In my free time I like surfing on the net, contributing to 
> OpenStreetMap, bicycling, hiking, take photos about trams, and of course, 
> packaging. 
> 
> I really like Arch Linux's transparency, the pacman and the build system, the 
> website and the great wiki. I'm maintaining packages[1] a long time ago, and 
> I already contributed to wiki by creating a page about libcanberra[2], and 
> updated, extended some other articles.
> 
> I reported many issues[3] with GNOME packages (including upstream and 
> packaging bugs) to make Arch Linux better. I usually try to find the solution 
> and send patch to upstream if needed before open bug reports. I helped to 
> Ioni e.g. on updating some C# packages, and I also cooperated with AndyRTR on 
> splitting out extensions from libreoffice
> package.

You did a great job helping me a lot in improving our packages and I
appreciate your effort and I hope your application is a success.

> 
> I currently have 150 packages in AUR with a total of 5775 votes. I already 
> maintain more than 200 packages as source packages on github[4] and as built 
> i686 packages in my [ayatana] repo[5]. I don't want to move all of these 
> packages to [community], only the popular ones. I always try to make the best 
> packages and I hate poorly written PKGBUILDs.
> 
> Some packages that I would like to add to [community]:
> - deja-dup (115 votes)
> - gwibber (299 votes)
> - pinta (186 votes)
> 
> Some orphan packages in [community] that I could adopt:
> - agave
> - buoh
> 
> My goal with becoming a TU is to provide more popular GTK+ applications in 
> [community] and keep GNOME stable and consistent by fixing packages on large 
> updates if needed. I hope that I could support Arch Linux as a TU in the next 
> months and years.
> 
> Alexander Rødseth is my sponsor.
> 
> Best regards,
> György Balló
> 
> My PGP key: 
> https://raw.github.com/City-busz/Arch-Linux-Repository/master/ballog...@gmail.com-public.asc
> 
> [1] https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?SeB=m&K=City-busz
> [2] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Libcanberra
> [3] 
> https://bugs.archlinux.org/index.php?project=1&status[]=&opened=City-busz&do=index
> [4] https://github.com/City-busz/Arch-Linux-Repository
> [5] http://ayatana.info/
> 
> 


-- 
Ionuț



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