Re: [Aus-soaring] spinning

[Mike Borgelt]

Yes, the rules are so complex and large that they 
contradict themselves in many places and even the 
CASA staff don't understand them.


Never mind, according to some CASA staff  pilots 
are just criminals who haven't been caught yet.



Mike


At 02:27 PM 5/10/2016, you wrote:
On May 10, 2016, at 1:06 PM, Mike Borgelt 
 wrote: > Your 
answer is 100% correct and utterly useless but 
now I know this is the CASA building. They’re 
often not 100% correct.   - mark 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] spinning

[Mark Newton]

On May 10, 2016, at 1:06 PM, Mike Borgelt  
wrote:
> Your answer is 100% correct and utterly useless but now I know this is the 
> CASA building.

They’re often not 100% correct.

  - mark



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Re: [Aus-soaring] spinning

[Mike Borgelt]

I thought I was being funny. Sorry I left out the smiley.

The original joke goes something like this:

Bloke is in a hot air balloon drifting across 
Canberra when suddenly he is enveloped in fog. 
After a while he drifts near a building and 
there's a bloke just inside an open window. The 
balloon pilot asks "where am I?"
The bloke in the building  replies " in a hot air 
ballon basket". Balloon pilot replies " Your 
answer is 100% correct and utterly useless but 
now I know this is the CASA building.Thanks."


Mike




t 11:23 AM 5/10/2016, you wrote:

Mike,
Lighten up! I thought it was funny. Clearly not 
to you. This place is so serious

Mark

On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 10:53 AM, DMcD 
<slutsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Compulsory spinning every year is a lot of 
risk exposure for dubious to zero benefit on 
the accidental spin in stats. It will no doubt 
cause some people to simply give up gliding.


Personally, I don't have a problem with spinning or getting into
incipient spins where it's initiated by me, accidental or otherwise in
either my aircraft or one which I know.

I do not like at all the idea of spinning with anyone else in the
glider, or in a glider which I either don't know or don't trust.

This is not a comment about instructors per se but about individual
responsibility and human fallibility.

I can remember turning up as a visitor at a club and within a few
minutes, the instructor wants to see how I can spin the aircraft. I
don't know him, the aircraft or the site. Why take the risk? Why not
concentrate on not spinning?

When so many countries and aviation authorities have come to the same
conclusion, why do we in Australia have to be out of step?

D
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Ph: Â  +61 7 3879 3005
Fax: +61Â 7 36076277
www.spe.com.au

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Re: [Aus-soaring] spinning

[Mark Fisher]

Mike,
Lighten up! I thought it was funny. Clearly not to you. This place is so
serious
Mark

On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 10:53 AM, DMcD  wrote:

> >>Compulsory spinning every year is a lot of risk exposure for dubious to
> zero benefit on the accidental spin in stats. It will no doubt cause some
> people to simply give up gliding.
>
> Personally, I don't have a problem with spinning or getting into
> incipient spins where it's initiated by me, accidental or otherwise in
> either my aircraft or one which I know.
>
> I do not like at all the idea of spinning with anyone else in the
> glider, or in a glider which I either don't know or don't trust.
>
> This is not a comment about instructors per se but about individual
> responsibility and human fallibility.
>
> I can remember turning up as a visitor at a club and within a few
> minutes, the instructor wants to see how I can spin the aircraft. I
> don't know him, the aircraft or the site. Why take the risk? Why not
> concentrate on not spinning?
>
> When so many countries and aviation authorities have come to the same
> conclusion, why do we in Australia have to be out of step?
>
> D
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>



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Wacol 4076
Australia
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Fax: +61 7 36076277
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Re: [Aus-soaring] spinning

[DMcD]

>>Compulsory spinning every year is a lot of risk exposure for dubious to zero 
>>benefit on the accidental spin in stats. It will no doubt cause some people 
>>to simply give up gliding.

Personally, I don't have a problem with spinning or getting into
incipient spins where it's initiated by me, accidental or otherwise in
either my aircraft or one which I know.

I do not like at all the idea of spinning with anyone else in the
glider, or in a glider which I either don't know or don't trust.

This is not a comment about instructors per se but about individual
responsibility and human fallibility.

I can remember turning up as a visitor at a club and within a few
minutes, the instructor wants to see how I can spin the aircraft. I
don't know him, the aircraft or the site. Why take the risk? Why not
concentrate on not spinning?

When so many countries and aviation authorities have come to the same
conclusion, why do we in Australia have to be out of step?

D
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Re: [Aus-soaring] spinning

[Richard Frawley]

and you still cant fish



> On 10 May 2016, at 10:42 AM, Mike Borgelt  
> wrote:
> 
> Mark,
> 
> That information is definitely 100% correct but utterly useless. Do you work 
> for the government now?
> 
> Thanks to Bernie Baer for this link: 
> https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist.php?AcType=sz50
> 
>  Awesome record. 
> I know of one that wasn't in there at Narrogin W.A. Instructor spun in with 
> student while low thermalling.
> 
> I get 28 stall spins, some while doing spin training. At least 17 question 
> marks. Many with instructors in the aircraft or solo students.
> 
> I think they only built 300  of them. 
> 
> Anyone care to do a comparison with other types?
> 
> I note the new Polish two seater Perkoz has a tail configuration known for 
> good spin recovery characteristics.
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 08:14 AM 5/10/2016, you wrote:
>> Mike
>> They are easy to find . Big white airplanes . No engines. Sometimes found in 
>> long funny looking trailers
>> Mark
>> 
>> On Monday, 9 May 2016, Mike Borgelt < mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com 
>> > wrote:
>> At 08:57 PM 5/9/2016, you wrote:
>> 
>>> The Aviation Safety Network website lists 77 occurences with Puchaczs with 
>>> the first spinning fatality on July 01 1982 in Poland, the latest March 17 
>>> 2016 in Japan. In between there are numerous spinning accidents.
>> 
>> Beats me how you found that on the website.
>> 
>> Do you have a link. I can't even find "gliders".
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring 
>> instrumentation since 1978
>> www.borgeltinstruments.com
>>  
>> tel:Â Â  07 4635 5784Â Â Â Â Â overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
>> mob: 042835 5784Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â :Â  int+61-42835 5784
>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Mark Fisher
>> Managing Director
>> Swift Performance Equipment
>> Unit 2, 1472 Boundary Rd
>> Wacol 4076
>> Australia
>> Ph: Â  +61 7 3879 3005
>> Fax: +61Â 7 36076277
>> www.spe.com.au 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring 
>> Borgelt Instruments - 
>> design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978
> www.borgeltinstruments.com
>  tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: 
> int+61-7-4635 5784
> mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
> 
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> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring

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Re: [Aus-soaring] spinning

[Mike Borgelt]

Mark,

That information is definitely 100% correct but 
utterly useless. Do you work for the government now?


Thanks to Bernie Baer for this link: 
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist.php?AcType=sz50


Awesome record. I know of one that wasn't in 
there at Narrogin W.A. Instructor spun in with student while low thermalling.


I get 28 stall spins, some while doing spin 
training. At least 17 question marks. Many with 
instructors in the aircraft or solo students.


I think they only built 300  of them.

Anyone care to do a comparison with other types?

I note the new Polish two seater Perkoz has a 
tail configuration known for good spin recovery characteristics.



Mike






At 08:14 AM 5/10/2016, you wrote:

Mike
They are easy to find . Big white airplanes . No 
engines. Sometimes found in long funny looking trailers

Mark

On Monday, 9 May 2016, Mike Borgelt 
<mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com> 
wrote:

At 08:57 PM 5/9/2016, you wrote:

The Aviation Safety Network website lists 77 
occurences with Puchaczs with the first 
spinning fatality on July 01 1982 in Poland, 
the latest March 17 2016 in Japan. In between 
there are numerous spinning accidents.


Beats me how you found that on the website.

Do you have a link. I can't even find "gliders".

Mike



Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of 
quality soaring instrumentation since 1978

www.borgeltinstruments.com
tel:Â Â  07 4635 5784Â Â Â Â Â overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
mob: 042835 5784Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â :Â  int+61-42835 5784
P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia



--
Mark Fisher
Managing Director
Swift Performance Equipment
Unit 2, 1472 Boundary Rd
Wacol 4076
Australia
Ph: Â  +61 7 3879 3005
Fax: +61Â 7 36076277
www.spe.com.au

[]



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Re: [Aus-soaring] spinning

[john1]

 

Look on the Aviation Safety Network website for their "Wiki base" all
reported prangs to that organization should appear. The website usually
has a glider "occurence" on it from some where around the globe most
days. 

John O'Neill. 

On 2016-05-10 08:00, Mike Borgelt wrote: 

> At 08:57 PM 5/9/2016, you wrote:
> 
>> The Aviation Safety Network website lists 77 occurences with Puchaczs with 
>> the first spinning fatality on July 01 1982 in Poland, the latest March 17 
>> 2016 in Japan. In between there are numerous spinning accidents.
> 
> Beats me how you found that on the website.
> 
> Do you have a link. I can't even find "gliders".
> 
> Mike
> 
> BORGELT INSTRUMENTS - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation 
> since 1978
> www.borgeltinstruments.com
> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784
> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
> 
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> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring [1]

 

Links:
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Re: [Aus-soaring] spinning

[Paul Bart]

Hi Mike

Just put

Aviation Safety Network Puchaczs

into Google and up they come.

Checked all the fatal ones, it would seem to confirm that Puchaczses indeed
stall and spin, which of course is in the manual.




Cheers

Paul

On 10 May 2016 at 08:00, Mike Borgelt 
wrote:

> At 08:57 PM 5/9/2016, you wrote:
>
> The Aviation Safety Network website lists 77 occurences with Puchaczs with
> the first spinning fatality on July 01 1982 in Poland, the latest March 17
> 2016 in Japan. In between there are numerous spinning accidents.
>
>
> Beats me how you found that on the website.
>
> Do you have a link. I can't even find "gliders".
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> *Borgelt Instruments* -
> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 *
> www.borgeltinstruments.com
> tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
> mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
>
> ___
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> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring
>
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] spinning

[Richard Frawley]

you know can even Google Google on how to Use Google.


> On 10 May 2016, at 8:14 AM, Mark Fisher  wrote:
> 
> Mike
> They are easy to find . Big white airplanes . No engines. Sometimes found in 
> long funny looking trailers
> Mark
> 
> On Monday, 9 May 2016, Mike Borgelt  > wrote:
> At 08:57 PM 5/9/2016, you wrote:
> 
>> The Aviation Safety Network website lists 77 occurences with Puchaczs with 
>> the first spinning fatality on July 01 1982 in Poland, the latest March 17 
>> 2016 in Japan. In between there are numerous spinning accidents.
>> 
> 
> Beats me how you found that on the website.
> 
> Do you have a link. I can't even find "gliders".
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation 
> since 1978
> www.borgeltinstruments.com
>  tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: 
> int+61-7-4635 5784
> mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Mark Fisher
> Managing Director
> Swift Performance Equipment
> Unit 2, 1472 Boundary Rd
> Wacol 4076
> Australia
> Ph:   +61 7 3879 3005
> Fax: +61 7 36076277
> www.spe.com.au 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Aus-soaring] spinning

[Mark Fisher]

Mike
They are easy to find . Big white airplanes . No engines. Sometimes found
in long funny looking trailers
Mark

On Monday, 9 May 2016, Mike Borgelt  wrote:

> At 08:57 PM 5/9/2016, you wrote:
>
> The Aviation Safety Network website lists 77 occurences with Puchaczs with
> the first spinning fatality on July 01 1982 in Poland, the latest March 17
> 2016 in Japan. In between there are numerous spinning accidents.
>
>
> Beats me how you found that on the website.
>
> Do you have a link. I can't even find "gliders".
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> *Borgelt Instruments* -
> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 *
> www.borgeltinstruments.com
> tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
> mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
>


-- 
Mark Fisher
Managing Director
Swift Performance Equipment
Unit 2, 1472 Boundary Rd
Wacol 4076
Australia
Ph:   +61 7 3879 3005
Fax: +61 7 36076277
www.spe.com.au
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Re: [Aus-soaring] spinning

[Mike Borgelt]

At 08:57 PM 5/9/2016, you wrote:

The Aviation Safety Network website lists 77 occurences with 
Puchaczs with the first spinning fatality on July 01 1982 in Poland, 
the latest March 17 2016 in Japan. In between there are numerous 
spinning accidents.




Beats me how you found that on the website.

Do you have a link. I can't even find "gliders".

Mike




Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring 
instrumentation since 1978

www.borgeltinstruments.com
tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
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Re: [Aus-soaring] spinning

[john1]

 

The Aviation Safety Network website lists 77 occurences with Puchaczs
with the first spinning fatality on July 01 1982 in Poland, the latest
March 17 2016 in Japan. In between there are numerous spinning
accidents. 

On 2016-05-09 17:00, Mike Borgelt wrote: 

> At 01:52 PM 5/9/2016, you wrote:
> 
>> "I would never, ever get into a Puchacz to spin it, especially off a winch 
>> launch. We need to retain all the pilots we have."
>> 
>> Here we go again, lets get into the the Puch, to be honest I would not get 
>> into a Puch and spin of a 900 ft winch either, but that does not mean I 
>> would not do it at an altitude that allows me to recover by 1000 ft.Â
> 
> Quite a number of people around the world have done that and NOT managed to 
> recover. One experienced instructor, flying with another, shared his Puch 
> spin recovery experience with us here. Another experienced instructor was 
> happy to spin it until one day it didn't immediately recover. BTW what are 
> you going to when it is passing through 1000 feet and hasn't recovered?
> 
>> Does anyone has any stats on how many fatalities there were in Australia in 
>> Puch spin training accidents? It would be nice to have some data before we 
>> go and sully the Puch reputation.
> 
> I know of at least one in the UK after reading a despairing Brit's critique 
> of BGA spin training after a 15 year old student was killed in a Puch. Also 
> one instance of two bad injuries after the instructor, a former CFI, spun 
> herself and student into the ground in one . Then there was Maurie Little and 
> student at Ararat. It seems GFA instructors spin in just as much as anyone.
> 
>> Personally I am much happier spinning Puch than K21 with 12 KG of lead 
>> attached to its tail.
> 
> Personally I think the Puch should be placarded against intentional spinning. 
> I wouldn't ever spin one. Interesting that on a check flight in NZ in one the 
> instructor didn't want a spin, just a stall.
> I wouldn't spin any glider that had been jiggered so it would spin with extra 
> tail ballast or aerodynamic cripples to make it spin.
> 
> It is called risk management. Don't take avoidable risks and always balance 
> risk against quantifiable benefit.
> 
> I'm not aware of ANY data that suggest spin training actually prevents people 
> from spinning in when the spin is entered inadvertently at low altitude. The 
> USA gave up compulsory spins in about 1947 for private certificates for that 
> reason. Smart instructors had the student do the spins solo for the checkride 
> and observed from the ground (see Scott Crossfield's book "Always Another 
> Dawn"). The Canadians gave it up about 50 years later when they found, in a 
> similar aviation culture and environment to the US, the spin in stats were no 
> better for licensed pilots and they were killing students and instructors 
> teaching and practicing spins. They couldn't in all conscience continue with 
> the requirement.
> 
> I personally do believe you should know how to recover from a spin. An hour 
> in a two seat Pitts or Decathlon with a proper aerobatics instructor will do 
> it nicely. You'll learn more about spins in that hour than in a lifetime of 
> flying gliders. Wear parachutes, start the spins at 10,000 feet and have a 
> decision height where you'll bail out.
> 
> Ridding people of the "just pull the stick back" reaction is probably better 
> served by unusual attitude recovery training. Probably better done in an 
> aerobatic powered aircraft also so as to minimise the risk of overstressing 
> or breaking the aircraft.
> 
> All the talk here about safe speed near the ground etc etc misses the real 
> issue. DON'T STALL THE GLIDER INADVERTENTLY. Speed has little to do with it. 
> It is about ANGLE OF ATTACK which is controlled by the pilot by how far he or 
> she PULLS THE STICK BACK. So DON'T PULL IT BACK SO FAR. (the despairing Brit 
> mentioned earlier had the same message)
> 
> Compulsory spinning every year is a lot of risk exposure for dubious to zero 
> benefit on the accidental spin in stats. It will no doubt cause some people 
> to simply give up gliding.
> 
> Chris Thorpe's stats are spurious. I'm not a statistician but I know when 
> comparing rates of relatively rare events you must be very careful when 
> making assertions about significance. Thorpe simply took raw numbers over two 
> 25 year periods without correcting for numbers of participants, hours flown 
> and other possible confounding factors. Not impressive. Such is the quality 
> of the decision making in the GFA control group. More about covering THEIR 
> backsides than protecting you.
> 
> Lastly, if you or anyone else wants to spin for practice, be my guest. Go to 
> it. That isn't the issue. The issue is whether experienced pilots who believe 
> intentional spinning is a an avoidable risk they do not wish to take, should 
> be COERCED into doing so in order to continue gliding. Think about it. It is 
> no longer a voluntary ass

Re: [Aus-soaring] spinning

[Peter Champness]

Thanks Mike,

A considered response.

This is a relevant and difficult problem.  Stall Spin accidents are
sporadic and fairly uncommon but are still happening.

You mentioned Maurice Little.  There has been another very recent
accident.

Neither occurred during training.  What is the best way to prevent those
accidents?

On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 5:00 PM, Mike Borgelt <
mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com> wrote:

> At 01:52 PM 5/9/2016, you wrote:
>
> "I would never, ever get into a Puchacz to spin it, especially off a winch
> launch. We need to retain all the pilots we have."
>
> Here we go again, lets get into the the Puch, to be honest I would not get
> into a Puch and spin of a 900 ft winch either, but that does not mean I
> would not do it at an altitude that allows me to recover by 1000 ft.Â
>
>
>
>  Quite a number of people around the world  have done that and NOT managed
> to recover. One experienced instructor, flying with another, shared his
> Puch spin recovery experience with us here. Another experienced instructor
> was happy to spin it until one day it didn't immediately recover. BTW what
> are you going to when it is passing through 1000 feet and hasn't recovered?
>
>
> Does anyone has any stats on how many fatalities there were in Australia
> in Puch spin training accidents? It would be nice to have some data before
> we go and sully the Puch reputation.
>
>
>
> I know of at least one in the UK after reading a despairing Brit's
> critique of BGA spin training after a 15 year old student was killed in a
> Puch. Also one instance of two bad injuries after the instructor, a former
> CFI, spun herself and student  into the ground in one . Then there was
> Maurie Little and student at Ararat. It seems GFA instructors spin in just
> as much as anyone.
>
>
> Personally I am much happier spinning Puch than K21 with 12 KG of lead
> attached to its tail.
>
>
>
> Personally I think the Puch should be placarded against intentional
> spinning. I wouldn't ever spin one. Interesting that on a check flight in
> NZ in one the instructor didn't want a spin, just a stall.
> I wouldn't spin any glider that had been jiggered so it would spin  with
> extra tail ballast or aerodynamic cripples to make it spin.
>
> It is called risk management. Don't take avoidable risks and always
> balance risk against quantifiable benefit.
>
> I'm not aware of ANY data that suggest spin training actually prevents
> people from spinning in when the spin is entered inadvertently at low
> altitude. The USA gave up compulsory spins in about 1947 for private
> certificates for that reason. Smart instructors had the student do the
> spins solo for the checkride and observed from the ground (see Scott
> Crossfield's book "Always Another Dawn"). The Canadians gave it up about 50
> years later when they found, in a similar aviation culture and environment
> to the US, the spin in stats were no better for licensed pilots and they
> were killing students and instructors teaching and practicing spins. They
> couldn't in all conscience continue with the requirement.
>
> I personally do believe you should know how to recover from a spin. An
> hour in a two seat Pitts or Decathlon with a proper aerobatics instructor
> will do it nicely. You'll learn more about spins in that hour than in a
> lifetime of flying gliders. Wear parachutes, start the spins at 10,000 feet
> and have a decision height where you'll bail out.
>
> Ridding people of the "just pull the stick back" reaction is probably
> better served by unusual attitude recovery training. Probably better done
> in an  aerobatic powered aircraft also so as to minimise the risk of
> overstressing or breaking the aircraft.
>
> All the talk here about safe speed near the ground etc etc misses the real
> issue. DON'T STALL THE GLIDER INADVERTENTLY. Speed has little to do with
> it. It is about  ANGLE OF ATTACK which is controlled by the pilot by how
> far  he or she PULLS THE STICK BACK. So DON'T PULL IT BACK SO FAR. (the
> despairing Brit mentioned earlier had the same message)
>
> Compulsory spinning every year is a lot of risk exposure for dubious to
> zero benefit on the accidental spin in stats. It will no doubt cause some
> people to simply give up gliding.
>
> Chris Thorpe's stats are spurious. I'm not a statistician but I know when
> comparing rates of relatively rare events you must be very careful when
> making assertions about significance. Thorpe simply took raw numbers over
> two 25 year periods without correcting for numbers of participants, hours
> flown and other possible confounding factors. Not impressive. Such is the
> quality of the decision making in the GFA control group. More about
> covering THEIR backsides than protecting you.
>
> Lastly, if you or anyone else wants to spin for practice, be my guest. Go
> to it.  That isn't the issue. The issue is whether experienced pilots who
> believe intentional spinning is a an avoidable risk they do not wish to
> take, should be COE

Re: [Aus-soaring] spinning

[Mike Borgelt]

At 01:52 PM 5/9/2016, you wrote:
"I would never, ever get into a Puchacz to spin 
it, especially off a winch launch. We need to retain all the pilots we have."


Here we go again, lets get into the the Puch, to 
be honest I would not get into a Puch and spin 
of a 900 ft winch either, but that does not mean 
I would not do it at an altitude that allows me to recover by 1000 ft.Â



 Quite a number of people around the world  have 
done that and NOT managed to recover. One 
experienced instructor, flying with another, 
shared his  Puch spin recovery experience with us 
here. Another experienced instructor was happy to 
spin it until one day it didn't immediately 
recover. BTW what are you going to when it is 
passing through 1000 feet and hasn't recovered?



Does anyone has any stats on how many fatalities 
there were in Australia in Puch spin training 
accidents? It would be nice to have some data 
before we go and sully the Puch reputation.



I know of at least one in the UK after reading a 
despairing Brit's critique of BGA spin training 
after a 15 year old student was killed in a Puch. 
Also one instance of two bad injuries after the 
instructor, a former CFI, spun herself and 
student  into the ground in one . Then there was 
Maurie Little and student at Ararat. It seems GFA 
instructors spin in just as much as anyone.



Personally I am much happier spinning Puch than 
K21 with 12 KG of lead attached to its tail.



Personally I think the Puch should be placarded 
against intentional spinning. I wouldn't ever 
spin one. Interesting that on a check flight in 
NZ in one the instructor didn't want a spin, just a stall.
I wouldn't spin any glider that had been jiggered 
so it would spin  with extra tail ballast or 
aerodynamic cripples to make it spin.


It is called risk management. Don't take 
avoidable risks and always balance risk against quantifiable benefit.


I'm not aware of ANY data that suggest spin 
training actually prevents people from spinning 
in when the spin is entered inadvertently at low 
altitude. The USA gave up compulsory spins in 
about 1947 for private certificates for that 
reason. Smart instructors had the student do the 
spins solo for the checkride and observed from 
the ground (see Scott Crossfield's book "Always 
Another Dawn"). The Canadians gave it up about 50 
years later when they found, in a similar 
aviation culture and environment to the US, the 
spin in stats were no better for licensed pilots 
and they were killing students and instructors 
teaching and practicing spins. They couldn't in 
all conscience continue with the requirement.


I personally do believe you should know how to 
recover from a spin. An hour in a two seat Pitts 
or Decathlon with a proper aerobatics instructor 
will do it nicely. You'll learn more about spins 
in that hour than in a lifetime of flying 
gliders. Wear parachutes, start the spins at 
10,000 feet and have a decision height where you'll bail out.


Ridding people of the "just pull the stick back" 
reaction is probably better served by unusual 
attitude recovery training. Probably better done 
in an  aerobatic powered aircraft also so as to 
minimise the risk of overstressing or breaking the aircraft.


All the talk here about safe speed near the 
ground etc etc misses the real issue. DON'T STALL 
THE GLIDER INADVERTENTLY. Speed has little to do 
with it. It is about  ANGLE OF ATTACK which is 
controlled by the pilot by how far  he or she 
PULLS THE STICK BACK. So DON'T PULL IT BACK SO 
FAR. (the despairing Brit mentioned earlier had the same message)


Compulsory spinning every year is a lot of risk 
exposure for dubious to zero benefit on the 
accidental spin in stats. It will no doubt cause 
some people to simply give up gliding.


Chris Thorpe's stats are spurious. I'm not a 
statistician but I know when comparing rates of 
relatively rare events you must be very careful 
when making assertions about significance. Thorpe 
simply took raw numbers over two 25 year periods 
without correcting for numbers of participants, 
hours flown and other possible confounding 
factors. Not impressive. Such is the quality of 
the decision making in the GFA control group. 
More about covering THEIR backsides than protecting you.


Lastly, if you or anyone else wants to spin for 
practice, be my guest. Go to it.  That isn't the 
issue. The issue is whether experienced pilots 
who believe intentional spinning is a an 
avoidable risk they do not wish to take, should 
be COERCED into doing so in order to continue 
gliding. Think about it. It is no longer a 
voluntary assumption of risk by an informed, consenting adult.


Mike








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