Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch
Hi Mike, We have speed conrol from the glider right now. Its called a VHF radio with a press to talk button on the control column and a boom mike. Calling down speeds to the winch driver is not that hard. Not perfect but we have the technolgy in most gliders. Just try and convince the GFA. They insist on all winch launch signals being given from outside the glider even though no problem with wing down aerotow retrieves. The word antedulvian springs to mind,. Harry M. - Original Message - From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch Doesn't have to be electric. I've long been an advocate of putting the winch throttle in the glider pilot's hand. Sure beats using semaphore with the glider airframe. Mike At 10:39 AM 27/05/2010, you wrote: This would be interesting, but controlling a big electric winch. Good for weekday fliers who don't have a motor glider. They would have to be independant operators though. Would'nt they ! http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/ ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.819 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2898 - Release Date: 05/27/10 04:26:00 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] address
Has anyone got an address (email) for David John Goodley. Last seen in the Northern Territory (!) with a slightly used Hornet, VH-GMU. Probably best reply direct to me (gavi...@hotmail.com) if you can. Thanks. Gavin Wrigley. _ Need a new place to live? Find it on Domain.com.au http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/157631292/direct/01/___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch
20+ years ago we we would always repeat speed twice to winch driver using the old boom mics- never an issue and you could always use signals - and the other good thing I used was a vacuum gauge in field of vision when on winch and I could launch a glider by numbers - remember it well and really worked Libelle, Bergfalke or SF26(like K8) all had their numbers (or I used colour on vacuum gauge) In those days we would do on average 200flights without an issue or cable brake and that was the bad old 3.15mm wire days. Spectra/dynima rope has transformed winch launching. Ian McPhee On 27 May 2010 17:40, harry medlicott hw.medlic...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Hi Mike, We have speed conrol from the glider right now. Its called a VHF radio with a press to talk button on the control column and a boom mike. Calling down speeds to the winch driver is not that hard. Not perfect but we have the technolgy in most gliders. Just try and convince the GFA. They insist on all winch launch signals being given from outside the glider even though no problem with wing down aerotow retrieves. The word antedulvian springs to mind,. Harry M. - Original Message - From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch Doesn't have to be electric. I've long been an advocate of putting the winch throttle in the glider pilot's hand. Sure beats using semaphore with the glider airframe. Mike At 10:39 AM 27/05/2010, you wrote: This would be interesting, but controlling a big electric winch. Good for weekday fliers who don't have a motor glider. They would have to be independant operators though. Would'nt they ! http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/ http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/ ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.819 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2898 - Release Date: 05/27/10 04:26:00 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch
Mike Borgelt wrote: Doesn't have to be electric. I've long been an advocate of putting the winch throttle in the glider pilot's hand. Sure beats using semaphore with the glider airframe. This system comes pretty close: http://www.skylaunchuk.com/launchassistant.php ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch
Hi All,
From a practical point of view re pilot control of a winch self -launch, I
would imagine the interesting bit would be foolproof control of - wind in
and appropriately stopping - the cable after release from the glider! I
understand that there is equipment available working on 2400 MHz that might
do the job?
Some of you may remember Bill Lewis (Cirrus GAM), who often worked for a
living in the far outback regions of this country. Bill sometimes took his
glider and winch with him, just to keep his hand in. He told me that he
would flag down somebody passing by - apparently there weren't a lot of
locals - give them a quick lesson on winch driving, and away he would go!
Maybe that was sometimes - usually these tales were told late at night, and
the detail tended to blur, if you know what I mean! I seem to recall that he
once told me he had done a rough estimate of launching costs - what a
masochist! - and it worked out at about $800 per launch! There was the odd
miss-adventure you will understand! Bill was an exponent of rope launching,
and he told me he was the only long line fisherman ever to work out of
Central Australia!
{Annie, it occurs to me that there if you can contact Bill and convince him
to put pen to paper, he will give you enough thrilling stories - not
necessarily entirely about gliding - to fill a book, let alone an article or
two in Soaring Australia! If this is of interest, I suggest you try
contacting Bill though David Nugent of the Sunrasia Gliding Club.}
Regards,
Gary
- Original Message -
From: harry medlicott hw.medlic...@optusnet.com.au
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch
Hi Mike,
We have speed conrol from the glider right now. Its called a VHF radio
with
a press to talk button on the control column and a boom mike. Calling
down
speeds to the winch driver is not that hard. Not perfect but we have the
technolgy in most gliders. Just try and convince the GFA. They insist on
all
winch launch signals being given from outside the glider even though no
problem with wing down aerotow retrieves. The word antedulvian springs to
mind,.
Harry M.
- Original Message -
From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch
Doesn't have to be electric.
I've long been an advocate of putting the winch throttle in the
glider pilot's hand.
Sure beats using semaphore with the glider airframe.
Mike
At 10:39 AM 27/05/2010, you wrote:
This would be interesting, but controlling a big electric winch.
Good for weekday fliers who don't have a motor glider.
They would have to be independant operators though. Would'nt they !
http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/
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[Aus-soaring] Updated weather forecast for the weekend 29 -30 May 2010
Hi folks The updated weather forecast (which has improved slightly over yesterday's outlook) is now available at http://the-white-knight-speaks.blogspot.com -- Robert Hart ha...@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF
I agree with Harry. At glider launch we persist with [semaphore] signals used 50 years ago, whereby the wing tip runner [who is not in the communications loop] still manages the take off process. And I have seen winch clubs that coordinate launches on CB radio: that puts the glider pilot out of that communications loop. In 2010 that can now be greatly improved by the use of the VHF glider radio. The glider pilot can be in charge and in the comms loop. The same thing applies to aerotowing. The tug pilot, the aircraft on downwind, and the glider on tow may have all coordinated over VHF, but the wing tip runner, and the forward signaler are often out of that comms loop and stop a safe coordinated launch. Let's let the glider pilot give 'take up slack' and 'all out' on VHF radio. [and have the pilot manage the wing tip runner.] Alan Wilson -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of harry medlicott Sent: Thursday, 27 May 2010 5:41 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch Hi Mike, We have speed conrol from the glider right now. Its called a VHF radio with a press to talk button on the control column and a boom mike. Calling down speeds to the winch driver is not that hard. Not perfect but we have the technolgy in most gliders. Just try and convince the GFA. They insist on all winch launch signals being given from outside the glider even though no problem with wing down aerotow retrieves. The word antedulvian springs to mind,. Harry M. - Original Message - From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch Doesn't have to be electric. I've long been an advocate of putting the winch throttle in the glider pilot's hand. Sure beats using semaphore with the glider airframe. Mike At 10:39 AM 27/05/2010, you wrote: This would be interesting, but controlling a big electric winch. Good for weekday fliers who don't have a motor glider. They would have to be independant operators though. Would'nt they ! http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/ ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.819 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2898 - Release Date: 05/27/10 04:26:00 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch
I'm against the use of radio to report speeds. We've had instances of other VHF radio users making spurious calls when the glider is being launched and if only for this reason then I am opposed to it. And I think the wing down aerotow retrieves is a bit of a red herring - two very different things!! Additionally, there are many gliders around that don't have boom mikes and I can see the scenario where it will become acceptable then to use hand-held mikes because 'we use the radio to report speeds'. It would be a completely unacceptable risk to have one hand fumbling around trying to hang up a mike when the rope broke! From: harry medlicott hw.medlic...@optusnet.com.au To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thu, 27 May, 2010 5:40:58 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch Hi Mike, We have speed conrol from the glider right now. Its called a VHF radio with a press to talk button on the control column and a boom mike. Calling down speeds to the winch driver is not that hard. Not perfect but we have the technolgy in most gliders. Just try and convince the GFA. They insist on all winch launch signals being given from outside the glider even though no problem with wing down aerotow retrieves. The word antedulvian springs to mind,. Harry M. - Original Message - From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch Doesn't have to be electric. I've long been an advocate of putting the winch throttle in the glider pilot's hand. Sure beats using semaphore with the glider airframe. Mike At 10:39 AM 27/05/2010, you wrote: This would be interesting, but controlling a big electric winch. Good for weekday fliers who don't have a motor glider. They would have to be independant operators though. Would'nt they ! http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/ ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.819 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2898 - Release Date: 05/27/10 04:26:00 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF
The wing tip runner does not 'manage' the take off process - the pilot does. There seems to be a trend whereby pilots think that the launch process is something that is controlled by the wing-runner and they are a passive participant - this is completely wrong. The take-off process does not happen without the express command of the pilot. Certainly, the wing runner can stop a launch if they see fit - the pilot can't see behind him/her which is why the launch continues to proceed after the 'all clear above and behind' call is made to clear the airspace. The pilot has the ultimate authority in the launch - it s called the release knob/handle. Over the years I've also seen a number of methods of communicating between launch point and winch/autotow in terms of signals - flashing headlights, wings waving up and down and signal bats. The advantage with them is that there is no interference. The great majority of gliders now have radios so the pilot is not out of the communications loop - they can monitor the radio calls and if there is any conflict, they can terminate the launch. The launch does not have to proceed just because the wing runner is waving 'full power' - pull the yellow handle!! I just wonder what is the reason for changing what we are presently doing? Old and dated methods - certainly!! But I haven't yet seen anyone write that it will make launching 'safer' which would be a prime motivator, only that we should use the radio because we can. From: Alan Wilson a...@ozemail.com.au To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Fri, 28 May, 2010 8:40:26 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF I agree with Harry. At glider launch we persist with [semaphore] signals used 50 years ago, whereby the wing tip runner [who is not in the communications loop] still manages the take off process. And I have seen winch clubs that coordinate launches on CB radio: that puts the glider pilot out of that communications loop. In 2010 that can now be greatly improved by the use of the VHF glider radio. The glider pilot can be in charge and in the comms loop. The same thing applies to aerotowing. The tug pilot, the aircraft on downwind, and the glider on tow may have all coordinated over VHF, but the wing tip runner, and the forward signaler are often out of that comms loop and stop a safe coordinated launch. Let's let the glider pilot give 'take up slack' and 'all out' on VHF radio. [and have the pilot manage the wing tip runner.] Alan Wilson -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of harry medlicott Sent: Thursday, 27 May 2010 5:41 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch Hi Mike, We have speed conrol from the glider right now. Its called a VHF radio with a press to talk button on the control column and a boom mike. Calling down speeds to the winch driver is not that hard. Not perfect but we have the technolgy in most gliders. Just try and convince the GFA. They insist on all winch launch signals being given from outside the glider even though no problem with wing down aerotow retrieves. The word antedulvian springs to mind,. Harry M. - Original Message - From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch Doesn't have to be electric. I've long been an advocate of putting the winch throttle in the glider pilot's hand. Sure beats using semaphore with the glider airframe. Mike At 10:39 AM 27/05/2010, you wrote: This would be interesting, but controlling a big electric winch. Good for weekday fliers who don't have a motor glider. They would have to be independant operators though. Would'nt they ! http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/ ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.819 / Virus Database:
Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF
Hi All, Please bring up some logical arguments. The one that the pilot cannot see behind him just doesn't have merit. We regularly permit aerotows with no wing runner - a wing down takeoff. At least with a winch launch we have the winch driver looking in the direction of the launch which may not be perfect but is better than nothing. Have seen thousands of winch launches including well over a thousand as an instructor and many more driving a winch. Have yet to see a wing runner do anything useful in the event of anything going wrong. Usually it is someone else on a phone or radio or the pilot himself using his radio. Mostly it is the pilots training which saves the day. The BGA with its Safe Winch Launching program have gone back 35 years examining and analysing accidents and incidents resulting from about 10 million winch launches. They keep and publish meticulous records of accidents and incidents. We should learn a lot from their work including some of our procedures which for reasons of space I won't go into here. Suffice it to say that we could improve our overall safety by modifying some of our pratices and advice to pilots, Harry Medlicott. - Original Message - From: Dave Donald To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF The wing tip runner does not 'manage' the take off process - the pilot does. There seems to be a trend whereby pilots think that the launch process is something that is controlled by the wing-runner and they are a passive participant - this is completely wrong. The take-off process does not happen without the express command of the pilot. Certainly, the wing runner can stop a launch if they see fit - the pilot can't see behind him/her which is why the launch continues to proceed after the 'all clear above and behind' call is made to clear the airspace. The pilot has the ultimate authority in the launch - it s called the release knob/handle. Over the years I've also seen a number of methods of communicating between launch point and winch/autotow in terms of signals - flashing headlights, wings waving up and down and signal bats. The advantage with them is that there is no interference. The great majority of gliders now have radios so the pilot is not out of the communications loop - they can monitor the radio calls and if there is any conflict, they can terminate the launch. The launch does not have to proceed just because the wing runner is waving 'full power' - pull the yellow handle!! I just wonder what is the reason for changing what we are presently doing? Old and dated methods - certainly!! But I haven't yet seen anyone write that it will make launching 'safer' which would be a prime motivator, only that we should use the radio because we can. -- From: Alan Wilson a...@ozemail.com.au To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Fri, 28 May, 2010 8:40:26 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF I agree with Harry. At glider launch we persist with [semaphore] signals used 50 years ago, whereby the wing tip runner [who is not in the communications loop] still manages the take off process. And I have seen winch clubs that coordinate launches on CB radio: that puts the glider pilot out of that communications loop. In 2010 that can now be greatly improved by the use of the VHF glider radio. The glider pilot can be in charge and in the comms loop. The same thing applies to aerotowing. The tug pilot, the aircraft on downwind, and the glider on tow may have all coordinated over VHF, but the wing tip runner, and the forward signaler are often out of that comms loop and stop a safe coordinated launch. Let's let the glider pilot give 'take up slack' and 'all out' on VHF radio. [and have the pilot manage the wing tip runner.] Alan Wilson -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of harry medlicott Sent: Thursday, 27 May 2010 5:41 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch Hi Mike, We have speed conrol from the glider right now. Its called a VHF radio with a press to talk button on the control column and a boom mike. Calling down speeds to the winch driver is not that hard. Not perfect but we have the technolgy in most gliders. Just try and convince the GFA. They insist on all winch launch signals being given from outside the glider even though no problem with wing down aerotow retrieves. The word antedulvian springs to mind,. Harry M. - Original Message - From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com To:
Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF
I'm interested you mention the BGA. Several UK airfields don't have the winch in view of the launch point - the only option is radio. many use CB as the amount of launch traffic would drown out the 2 gliding frequencies - 4 times the number of gliders as we have and all in radio range on each other. The problems with a pilot controlled winch are how to deal with things going wrong: Pilot doesn't release cable until past winch - cable wraps around winch with motor trying to wind it in = a break and a huge mess. Remember that a hang glider or paraglider pilot can see the winch at all times. Signaller would have noticed a hazard ahead that is below nose of glider in climb. Throttle response as glider rotates into climb - we tried many times with an automated throttle and it plain didn't work. It was too slow and the engine stalled ever time, no matter how gentle the pilot was. This was with the manufacturers techs on the field helping - they gave up first. The engine was an 8.2l GM V8 - 350Kw. Electric winch may be the answer. Some clubs have used a radio transmitted speed from the glider to the winch so the driver has a very clear picture of what is going on. On 28/05/2010, at 9:54 , harry medlicott wrote: Hi All, Please bring up some logical arguments. The one that the pilot cannot see behind him just doesn't have merit. We regularly permit aerotows with no wing runner - a wing down takeoff. At least with a winch launch we have the winch driver looking in the direction of the launch which may not be perfect but is better than nothing. Have seen thousands of winch launches including well over a thousand as an instructor and many more driving a winch. Have yet to see a wing runner do anything useful in the event of anything going wrong. Usually it is someone else on a phone or radio or the pilot himself using his radio. Mostly it is the pilots training which saves the day. The BGA with its Safe Winch Launching program have gone back 35 years examining and analysing accidents and incidents resulting from about 10 million winch launches. They keep and publish meticulous records of accidents and incidents. We should learn a lot from their work including some of our procedures which for reasons of space I won't go into here. Suffice it to say that we could improve our overall safety by modifying some of our pratices and advice to pilots, Harry Medlicott. - Original Message - From: Dave Donald To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF The wing tip runner does not 'manage' the take off process - the pilot does. There seems to be a trend whereby pilots think that the launch process is something that is controlled by the wing-runner and they are a passive participant - this is completely wrong. The take-off process does not happen without the express command of the pilot. Certainly, the wing runner can stop a launch if they see fit - the pilot can't see behind him/her which is why the launch continues to proceed after the 'all clear above and behind' call is made to clear the airspace. The pilot has the ultimate authority in the launch - it s called the release knob/handle. Over the years I've also seen a number of methods of communicating between launch point and winch/autotow in terms of signals - flashing headlights, wings waving up and down and signal bats. The advantage with them is that there is no interference. The great majority of gliders now have radios so the pilot is not out of the communications loop - they can monitor the radio calls and if there is any conflict, they can terminate the launch. The launch does not have to proceed just because the wing runner is waving 'full power' - pull the yellow handle!! I just wonder what is the reason for changing what we are presently doing? Old and dated methods - certainly!! But I haven't yet seen anyone write that it will make launching 'safer' which would be a prime motivator, only that we should use the radio because we can. From: Alan Wilson a...@ozemail.com.au To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Fri, 28 May, 2010 8:40:26 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF I agree with Harry. At glider launch we persist with [semaphore] signals used 50 years ago, whereby the wing tip runner [who is not in the communications loop] still manages the take off process. And I have seen winch clubs that coordinate launches on CB radio: that puts the glider pilot out of that communications loop. In 2010 that can now be greatly improved by the use of the VHF glider radio. The glider pilot can be in charge and in the comms loop. The same thing applies to aerotowing. The tug pilot, the aircraft on downwind, and the glider on tow may
Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch
I'm against the use of radio to report speeds. Isn't radio just the least unreliable method? Wing waggling at speeds close to the stall is likely to cause more exciting problems than a dud radio. D On 28/05/2010, Dave Donald icans...@y7mail.com wrote: I'm against the use of radio to report speeds. We've had instances of other VHF radio users making spurious calls when the glider is being launched and if only for this reason then I am opposed to it. And I think the wing down aerotow retrieves is a bit of a red herring - two very different things!! Additionally, there are many gliders around that don't have boom mikes and I can see the scenario where it will become acceptable then to use hand-held mikes because 'we use the radio to report speeds'. It would be a completely unacceptable risk to have one hand fumbling around trying to hang up a mike when the rope broke! From: harry medlicott hw.medlic...@optusnet.com.au To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thu, 27 May, 2010 5:40:58 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch Hi Mike, We have speed conrol from the glider right now. Its called a VHF radio with a press to talk button on the control column and a boom mike. Calling down speeds to the winch driver is not that hard. Not perfect but we have the technolgy in most gliders. Just try and convince the GFA. They insist on all winch launch signals being given from outside the glider even though no problem with wing down aerotow retrieves. The word antedulvian springs to mind,. Harry M. - Original Message - From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch Doesn't have to be electric. I've long been an advocate of putting the winch throttle in the glider pilot's hand. Sure beats using semaphore with the glider airframe. Mike At 10:39 AM 27/05/2010, you wrote: This would be interesting, but controlling a big electric winch. Good for weekday fliers who don't have a motor glider. They would have to be independant operators though. Would'nt they ! http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/ ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.819 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2898 - Release Date: 05/27/10 04:26:00 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF
Many use CB as the amount of launch traffic would drown out the 2 gliding frequencies I think any discussion regarding radios should be prefaced by the disclaimer that VHF radios don't work very well, especially on the ground. UHF CB radio is many times more reliable than the VHF in gliders. It's the only form of communication used by HG and PG pilots and with the modern 40+ channel CB radios with some feature which allows you to digitally code your transmissions, it's also very private. I am still a bit staggered by how few gliders have decent reliable VHF installations. UHF CB is not line of sight and can be used on sites where the winch and glider are on opposite sides of a hill. Yes there is the obvious problem of gliders not having CB radios! On 28/05/2010, Matthew Gage m...@knightschallenge.com wrote: I'm interested you mention the BGA. Several UK airfields don't have the winch in view of the launch point - the only option is radio. many use CB as the amount of launch traffic would drown out the 2 gliding frequencies - 4 times the number of gliders as we have and all in radio range on each other. The problems with a pilot controlled winch are how to deal with things going wrong: Pilot doesn't release cable until past winch - cable wraps around winch with motor trying to wind it in = a break and a huge mess. Remember that a hang glider or paraglider pilot can see the winch at all times. Signaller would have noticed a hazard ahead that is below nose of glider in climb. Throttle response as glider rotates into climb - we tried many times with an automated throttle and it plain didn't work. It was too slow and the engine stalled ever time, no matter how gentle the pilot was. This was with the manufacturers techs on the field helping - they gave up first. The engine was an 8.2l GM V8 - 350Kw. Electric winch may be the answer. Some clubs have used a radio transmitted speed from the glider to the winch so the driver has a very clear picture of what is going on. On 28/05/2010, at 9:54 , harry medlicott wrote: Hi All, Please bring up some logical arguments. The one that the pilot cannot see behind him just doesn't have merit. We regularly permit aerotows with no wing runner - a wing down takeoff. At least with a winch launch we have the winch driver looking in the direction of the launch which may not be perfect but is better than nothing. Have seen thousands of winch launches including well over a thousand as an instructor and many more driving a winch. Have yet to see a wing runner do anything useful in the event of anything going wrong. Usually it is someone else on a phone or radio or the pilot himself using his radio. Mostly it is the pilots training which saves the day. The BGA with its Safe Winch Launching program have gone back 35 years examining and analysing accidents and incidents resulting from about 10 million winch launches. They keep and publish meticulous records of accidents and incidents. We should learn a lot from their work including some of our procedures which for reasons of space I won't go into here. Suffice it to say that we could improve our overall safety by modifying some of our pratices and advice to pilots, Harry Medlicott. - Original Message - From: Dave Donald To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF The wing tip runner does not 'manage' the take off process - the pilot does. There seems to be a trend whereby pilots think that the launch process is something that is controlled by the wing-runner and they are a passive participant - this is completely wrong. The take-off process does not happen without the express command of the pilot. Certainly, the wing runner can stop a launch if they see fit - the pilot can't see behind him/her which is why the launch continues to proceed after the 'all clear above and behind' call is made to clear the airspace. The pilot has the ultimate authority in the launch - it s called the release knob/handle. Over the years I've also seen a number of methods of communicating between launch point and winch/autotow in terms of signals - flashing headlights, wings waving up and down and signal bats. The advantage with them is that there is no interference. The great majority of gliders now have radios so the pilot is not out of the communications loop - they can monitor the radio calls and if there is any conflict, they can terminate the launch. The launch does not have to proceed just because the wing runner is waving 'full power' - pull the yellow handle!! I just wonder what is the reason for changing what we are presently doing? Old and dated methods - certainly!! But I haven't yet seen anyone write that it will make launching 'safer' which would be a prime motivator, only that we should use the radio because we can. From: Alan Wilson
[Aus-soaring] Wing Signals
Isn't radio just the least unreliable method? Radios are more likely to fail than controls, I would trust my control linkages more than the radio. Wing waggling at speeds close to the stall is likely to cause more exciting problems than a dud radio. I certainly hope no-one has let their speed drop that far and remained on the wire. If speed is slow on the launch, you should lower the nose prior to signalling. The thing that kills people on wire launching is spinning off the wire (i.e. not having enough airspeed prior to turning after a cable break). It takes up to six seconds from when the cable breaks to gaining safe speed after nosing over. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals
Thanks Michael, particularly with respect to the speed and lowering the nose. If only ever this lesson was learned, then accidents/incidents would drop dramatically. At Harry's suggestion I cruised the BGA Safe Winch Site and looked at the simulations http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htm I don't know about the flick roll, but the spin and wing drop would definitely feature in our accident stats. Dave From: Texler, Michael michael.tex...@health.wa.gov.au To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Fri, 28 May, 2010 12:57:55 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals Isn't radio just the least unreliable method? Radios are more likely to fail than controls, I would trust my control linkages more than the radio. Wing waggling at speeds close to the stall is likely to cause more exciting problems than a dud radio. I certainly hope no-one has let their speed drop that far and remained on the wire. If speed is slow on the launch, you should lower the nose prior to signalling. The thing that kills people on wire launching is spinning off the wire (i.e. not having enough airspeed prior to turning after a cable break). It takes up to six seconds from when the cable breaks to gaining safe speed after nosing over. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF
At our club we winch launch, on both strips where the winch and launch point are not visible to each other due to the topography. We use UHF radio communication from the launch point, usually with a radio operator at the 'piecart' overseeing the launch and taking verbal instructions from the wing runner. I personally carry a small hand held UHF with me in the glider so I can monitor the launch communication and sometimes when there is a lack of launch crew give the directions to the winch myself. The 'piecart' also has radio monitoring VHF 126.7 (CTAF). The winch driver can hear the UHF even with the V8 motor at full revs behind them, in case there is a call to stop the launch. With the new directive (effective 3rd June 2010) from CASA that it is mandatory to make calls on the CTAF when gliders are launching, this will either be done by the PIC or the radio operator at the 'piecart' just prior to calling the winch to take up slack. The winch driver first sights the launching glider somewhere between initial climb to full climb. Correct speed control is usually fairly consistent with the experienced winch drivers. We use glider signals given by the pilot to correct any speed problems. (Tail wag or wing waggle). At all times it would be considered the PIC decision to take a launch, to proceed with the launch or abort and make a safe landing. It is expected that the wing runner and radio operator will monitor the launch procedure though to full climb to a safe height and notify the winch if any problems occur. By using the UHF for ground and launching operations it will reduce the chatter on the CTAF freq., that at times is very busy, and calls are unlikely to be broken up with someone coming in over the top. A UHF radio at ground level with a small antennae has a limited range to get interference from other users. Peter Brookman Bordertown-Keith GC - Original Message - From: Matthew Gage To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF I'm interested you mention the BGA. Several UK airfields don't have the winch in view of the launch point - the only option is radio. many use CB as the amount of launch traffic would drown out the 2 gliding frequencies - 4 times the number of gliders as we have and all in radio range on each other. The problems with a pilot controlled winch are how to deal with things going wrong: a.. Pilot doesn't release cable until past winch - cable wraps around winch with motor trying to wind it in = a break and a huge mess. Remember that a hang glider or paraglider pilot can see the winch at all times. b.. Signaller would have noticed a hazard ahead that is below nose of glider in climb. c.. Throttle response as glider rotates into climb - we tried many times with an automated throttle and it plain didn't work. It was too slow and the engine stalled ever time, no matter how gentle the pilot was. This was with the manufacturers techs on the field helping - they gave up first. The engine was an 8.2l GM V8 - 350Kw. Electric winch may be the answer. Some clubs have used a radio transmitted speed from the glider to the winch so the driver has a very clear picture of what is going on. On 28/05/2010, at 9:54 , harry medlicott wrote: Hi All, Please bring up some logical arguments. The one that the pilot cannot see behind him just doesn't have merit. We regularly permit aerotows with no wing runner - a wing down takeoff. At least with a winch launch we have the winch driver looking in the direction of the launch which may not be perfect but is better than nothing. Have seen thousands of winch launches including well over a thousand as an instructor and many more driving a winch. Have yet to see a wing runner do anything useful in the event of anything going wrong. Usually it is someone else on a phone or radio or the pilot himself using his radio. Mostly it is the pilots training which saves the day. The BGA with its Safe Winch Launching program have gone back 35 years examining and analysing accidents and incidents resulting from about 10 million winch launches. They keep and publish meticulous records of accidents and incidents. We should learn a lot from their work including some of our procedures which for reasons of space I won't go into here. Suffice it to say that we could improve our overall safety by modifying some of our pratices and advice to pilots, Harry Medlicott. - Original Message - From: Dave Donald To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF The wing tip runner does not 'manage' the take off process - the pilot does. There seems to be a trend whereby pilots think that the launch
Re: [Aus-soaring] Flexible solar array to mount on glider
At 02:12 PM 27/05/2010, you wrote: 1.0 KW system Grant $8000.00 govt paid RECs $800.00 govt paid System cost $8920.00 Tile brackets $120.00 my cost Level 2 electrician connect to grid $360.00 my cost $2500.00 deposit loss of interest @ 5% average rate 12 months $412.50 my loss Cost and Loss total $895.50 divided by $0.60 = 1492.5 KW breakeven 4.08 KW per day 365 day approx breakeven Winter average currently 3.4 KW System faces west not optimum eg north facing. Also did the solar hot water rebates $1600.00 federal and $500.00 state Installed 63 days ago all refunds received. ___ I don't blame you for installing this as for *you* it makes sense but remember SOMEBODY has paid the *real* cost of the installation which looks to be around $10,000. Around $1500-2000 gets you your share of a coal fired power station and it will produce 1KW for you all the time. i.e 24Kw-hr a day. Wind and solar make sense when you don't have grid access. If you do have grid access and the green loonies won't let investment be made in sufficient and reliable power stations then you might consider a petrol generator for the odd outages. Solar cells on gliders, yachts and spacecraft along with communications repeaters in remote areas are a rational engineering solution. However if you look at the comments on the WUWT article, one guy is an engineer who did the life cycle energy costs of the solar PV and wind generators and came to the conclusion that solar returned just under half of the energy investment and wind slightly less than 0.3. So neither is really an energy source as your up front and maintenance energy investment is 2 to 3 times what you get out over the life of the generator. Lucky we're a rich society to afford these sorts of hobbies - or were, until this foolishness came along. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch
At 06:35 PM 27/05/2010, you wrote: This system comes pretty close: http://www.skylaunchuk.com/launchassistant.phphttp://www.skylaunchuk.com/launchassistant.php ___ It must be about 25 years ago that I provided an electronic airspeed sensor to an Adelaide Uni engineering student who was building one of these for his practical project. How about a current one designs a triply redundant, secure, interference free, failure tolerant device that puts the throttle in the glider pilot's hand? Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals
At 01:29 PM 28/05/2010, you wrote: Thanks Michael, particularly with respect to the speed and lowering the nose. If only ever this lesson was learned, then accidents/incidents would drop dramatically. At Harry's suggestion I cruised the BGA Safe Winch Site and looked at the simulations http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htmhttp://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htm I don't know about the flick roll, but the spin and wing drop would definitely feature in our accident stats. Dave Stalling has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with angle of attack which is controlled by the pilot by where he puts the stick in the fore and aft sense. When that sinks in to everyone including instructors we might get somewhere. Next time you are at a safe altitude while local soaring get yourself a little extra speed, nose up and when stabilised at 45 degrees nose up hold the stick in that position and see what happens. Report back on your findings. You won't stall. The glider may go over the top of the parabola at lower than the 1g stalling speed but won't stall unless you pull the stick back. It takes very little time to go from a non stalling AoA to a stalled AoA as the glider doesn't have a high moment of inertia about the spanwise axis and the elevator control is usually quite powerful. Having the trim jump out of the full forward detent to full aft or close to it while holding back pressure on the stick will probably do nicely to initiate a flick roll, particularly for the inexperienced. My personal opinion on winching is that it is a cheap and nasty way to get airborne with emphasis on the nasty. The only reason it is tolerated is because it is cheap. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals
And according to BGA winching in the UK is 7 times more dangerous than aerotow - from memory that's 7 times as many deaths as from aero towing. Michael -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Friday, 28 May 2010 2:22 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals At 01:29 PM 28/05/2010, you wrote: Thanks Michael, particularly with respect to the speed and lowering the nose. If only ever this lesson was learned, then accidents/incidents would drop dramatically. At Harry's suggestion I cruised the BGA Safe Winch Site and looked at the simulations http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htmhttp://www.glidin g.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htm I don't know about the flick roll, but the spin and wing drop would definitely feature in our accident stats. Dave Stalling has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with angle of attack which is controlled by the pilot by where he puts the stick in the fore and aft sense. When that sinks in to everyone including instructors we might get somewhere. Next time you are at a safe altitude while local soaring get yourself a little extra speed, nose up and when stabilised at 45 degrees nose up hold the stick in that position and see what happens. Report back on your findings. You won't stall. The glider may go over the top of the parabola at lower than the 1g stalling speed but won't stall unless you pull the stick back. It takes very little time to go from a non stalling AoA to a stalled AoA as the glider doesn't have a high moment of inertia about the spanwise axis and the elevator control is usually quite powerful. Having the trim jump out of the full forward detent to full aft or close to it while holding back pressure on the stick will probably do nicely to initiate a flick roll, particularly for the inexperienced. My personal opinion on winching is that it is a cheap and nasty way to get airborne with emphasis on the nasty. The only reason it is tolerated is because it is cheap. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals
I certainly hope no-one has let their speed drop that far and remained on the wire. They probably didn't remain on the wire. They probably stall/spinned off it :-( The BGA says this: A glider with a 1g stalling speed of 34kt is likely to stall during rotation at about 50kt if the rotation rate is 20º per second. The suggested 5 seconds for rotation to a 35º climb angle implies an average of around 7º per second and a maximum of perhaps 10º per second. At this rotation rate the stall speed will be about 44kt. I assume these numbers are done for a K13. If you do the same things for many more modern gliders with stall speeds of 38 - 42 knots where some have a max winch speed of 65 or so knots, they are very close to stalling on any fast rotated take-off. This is why the BGA state: There is no case of an airworthy glider being damaged by excessive airspeed on a winch launch which is why it is not listed as a hazard. The placarded maximum winch launch speed may safely be exceeded during the early part of the launch. However, that contradicts the placarded speed on the glider, so we are not allowed to talk about it in Australia. For once, I agree with Mike B. There's no belly hook on my glider. D On 28/05/2010, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 01:29 PM 28/05/2010, you wrote: Thanks Michael, particularly with respect to the speed and lowering the nose. If only ever this lesson was learned, then accidents/incidents would drop dramatically. At Harry's suggestion I cruised the BGA Safe Winch Site and looked at the simulations http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htmhttp://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htm I don't know about the flick roll, but the spin and wing drop would definitely feature in our accident stats. Dave Stalling has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with angle of attack which is controlled by the pilot by where he puts the stick in the fore and aft sense. When that sinks in to everyone including instructors we might get somewhere. Next time you are at a safe altitude while local soaring get yourself a little extra speed, nose up and when stabilised at 45 degrees nose up hold the stick in that position and see what happens. Report back on your findings. You won't stall. The glider may go over the top of the parabola at lower than the 1g stalling speed but won't stall unless you pull the stick back. It takes very little time to go from a non stalling AoA to a stalled AoA as the glider doesn't have a high moment of inertia about the spanwise axis and the elevator control is usually quite powerful. Having the trim jump out of the full forward detent to full aft or close to it while holding back pressure on the stick will probably do nicely to initiate a flick roll, particularly for the inexperienced. My personal opinion on winching is that it is a cheap and nasty way to get airborne with emphasis on the nasty. The only reason it is tolerated is because it is cheap. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
