Re: [Aus-soaring] Easements in the air
Hi Terry, I think the answers simpliciter are that you have no rights over the air above your property and you can land anywhere you want to if you have to. Once on the ground there are other issues that come into play that can depend on the situation. I think somebody explained a lot of these in a post here or in the magazine. As outlanding is so much a part of gliding perhaps an advisory article on the legalities on the National Regulators website would be helpful to its' members. - Original Message - From: Terry Neumann To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Easements in the air Dear fellow gliding peoples, On 21/03/2012 4:24 PM, Christopher Mc Donnell wrote: Having had an academic interest in easements and rights of way for many years I found the link below very interesting. OK - it morphed into an interesting discussion of alternative power options, (which I was enjoying actually). However may I raise an issue of glider pilot's rights in a parallel area. Some years ago I was confronted by a friend - a fellow farmer - who lives on the other side of the local village. He was somewhat irate and wanted to know what right a glider pilot had to land on someone's property without their permission (his in this instance - because it had happened), or to even to fly over their property without permission. There were reasons for the second question which I won't detail here. I was struggling for a solid convincing answer at the time.I actually wrote an article for AG (yes it's that long ago) about this whole outlanding business from a farmer's point of view, but after my previous journalistic efforts which had quite adverse results in one particular instance, I backed off. It was never submitted. Nor did I offer an answer in the article because there didn't appear to be one. I suggest that the concept of a persons rights has strengthened throughout society since that time. So I'll ask it now. Exactly what is our 'right' to fly over someone else's property without their permission, or perhaps more importantly, to land on their property - again without permission - when the wind stops blowing? regards, TN -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Easements in the air
Terry, my understanding (and it may start an argument, and am happy to be corrected, in the subtleties or because I may be outright wrong) Flying over. That's a no brainer, irrespective of the type of ownership (crown lease, freehold etc) the property owner doesn't own the air above their property, except I think as high up as they build (and don't own everything under their feet either, I think). So all sorts of aircraft (gliders included) can fly there. Provided they comply with the air navigation laws which are in part notionally to protect the people below. Landing out. Well, I think we actually have no right to do this. On the face of it (IANAL) it is straight out trespass. However, it is a grey/complex area as I believe there can be extenuating circumstances to trespass. An example might be a person trying to escape from a threat, seeking safety. Maybe a plane forced to land due to engine failure is like that. Are gliders forced to land? Did we have to pick that particular paddock? How long do we intend to stay? That's where it all gets rather sticky. Until there is an actual court case bought against an outlanding glider, we won't know for sure, and maybe not even then. All I know is that I haven't flown a glider cross country for a long time. Two of the last outlandings I went to (one as pilot and one as part of the crew) started off with quite bad feeling on the part of the landowners. One because the owner claimed the glider had contaminated a genetically specialised crop and one because just prior to me outlanding in his field the farmer had been forced to accept an easement for an underground telco cable through his property and was generally unhappy with anyone now being there. Both situations were not fun and enough to make me wary of these situations for the future. Regards SWK On 24/03/2012 8:52 AM, Terry Neumann wrote: Dear fellow gliding peoples, On 21/03/2012 4:24 PM, Christopher Mc Donnell wrote: Having had an academic interest in easements and rights of way for many years I found the link below very interesting. OK - it morphed into an interesting discussion of alternative power options, (which I was enjoying actually). However may I raise an issue of glider pilot's rights in a parallel area. Some years ago I was confronted by a friend - a fellow farmer - who lives on the other side of the local village. He was somewhat irate and wanted to know what right a glider pilot had to land on someone's property without their permission (his in this instance - because it _had_ happened), or to even to fly over their property without permission. There _were_ reasons for the second question which I won't detail here. I was struggling for a solid convincing answer at the time.I actually wrote an article for AG (yes it's that long ago) about this whole outlanding business from a farmer's point of view, but after my previous journalistic efforts which had quite adverse results in one particular instance, I backed off. It was never submitted. Nor did I offer an answer in the article because there didn't appear to be one. I suggest that the concept of a persons rights has strengthened throughout society since that time. So I'll ask it now. Exactly what is our 'right' to fly over someone else's property without their permission, or perhaps more importantly, to land on their property - again without permission - when the wind stops blowing? regards, TN ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Easements in the air
Thank you Stephen. I think there is something in Commonwealth Legislation going back years that covers aircraft in distress landings and their rights to alight. I am not going to spend time researching it. And did that legislation ever consider aircraft that go aloft with a higher risk of an unexpected landing place? I wish I could remember the location of that article that opinioned the ground legal situation. Hopefully we will all get some guidance, at least, on that. Regards Chris (In wet but warm Qld) - Original Message - From: stephenk To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Easements in the air Terry, my understanding (and it may start an argument, and am happy to be corrected, in the subtleties or because I may be outright wrong) Flying over. That's a no brainer, irrespective of the type of ownership (crown lease, freehold etc) the property owner doesn't own the air above their property, except I think as high up as they build (and don't own everything under their feet either, I think). So all sorts of aircraft (gliders included) can fly there. Provided they comply with the air navigation laws which are in part notionally to protect the people below. Landing out. Well, I think we actually have no right to do this. On the face of it (IANAL) it is straight out trespass. However, it is a grey/complex area as I believe there can be extenuating circumstances to trespass. An example might be a person trying to escape from a threat, seeking safety. Maybe a plane forced to land due to engine failure is like that. Are gliders forced to land? Did we have to pick that particular paddock? How long do we intend to stay? That's where it all gets rather sticky. Until there is an actual court case bought against an outlanding glider, we won't know for sure, and maybe not even then. All I know is that I haven't flown a glider cross country for a long time. Two of the last outlandings I went to (one as pilot and one as part of the crew) started off with quite bad feeling on the part of the landowners. One because the owner claimed the glider had contaminated a genetically specialised crop and one because just prior to me outlanding in his field the farmer had been forced to accept an easement for an underground telco cable through his property and was generally unhappy with anyone now being there. Both situations were not fun and enough to make me wary of these situations for the future. Regards SWK On 24/03/2012 8:52 AM, Terry Neumann wrote: Dear fellow gliding peoples, On 21/03/2012 4:24 PM, Christopher Mc Donnell wrote: Having had an academic interest in easements and rights of way for many years I found the link below very interesting. OK - it morphed into an interesting discussion of alternative power options, (which I was enjoying actually). However may I raise an issue of glider pilot's rights in a parallel area. Some years ago I was confronted by a friend - a fellow farmer - who lives on the other side of the local village. He was somewhat irate and wanted to know what right a glider pilot had to land on someone's property without their permission (his in this instance - because it had happened), or to even to fly over their property without permission. There were reasons for the second question which I won't detail here. I was struggling for a solid convincing answer at the time.I actually wrote an article for AG (yes it's that long ago) about this whole outlanding business from a farmer's point of view, but after my previous journalistic efforts which had quite adverse results in one particular instance, I backed off. It was never submitted. Nor did I offer an answer in the article because there didn't appear to be one. I suggest that the concept of a persons rights has strengthened throughout society since that time. So I'll ask it now. Exactly what is our 'right' to fly over someone else's property without their permission, or perhaps more importantly, to land on their property - again without permission - when the wind stops blowing? regards, TN ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit:
Re: [Aus-soaring] Easements in the air
Here you go: http://2009.gfa.org.au/Docs/ops/Outlanding%20Legal%20Advice.pdf___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Easements in the air
Thanks Bernie That's the article I remember. Printed and ready for the glovebox. A little more prominence perhaps. - Original Message - From: Bernie Baer To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Easements in the air Here you go: http://2009.gfa.org.au/Docs/ops/Outlanding%20Legal%20Advice.pdf -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Easements in the air
On 23/03/2012 1:10 PM, Mike Borgelt wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_South_Australia 1.2GW of ultimate capacity offsets a gas-fired power station. I'm not sure that is quite correct. If you build a 1.2GW peak load gas fired power station you fire it up and it goes on line. The wind - not so much. Try getting permissions to build that power station these days. Then, look at the cost of building it and the returns it gets and why every energy company in the world is trying not to build more. I recommend some reading in to the topic of Demand Response. A startling statistic for you: Out of the roughly 8800hrs in a year, just 48 hours of those are responsible for 30% of the power company's costs - all associated with those peaker plants. -- Justin Couch http://www.vlc.com.au/justin/ 3D Java Graphics Informationhttp://www.j3d.org/ --- Humanism is dead. Animals think, feel; so do machines now. Neither man nor woman is the measure of all things. Every organism processes data according to its domain, its environment; you, with all your brains, would be useless in a mouse's universe... - Greg Bear, Slant --- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Easements in the air
I'm not sure what Terry's neighbour was growing... or perhaps he is the president of the local nudist club... Perhaps some perspective is needed. Outlandings are a normal part of our sport and almost all go well. Expecting the worst is not a good way to build confidence. In 35 years of X/C gliding I have had my share or outlandings, and I've done a lot of retrieves. I've heard stories about farmers from hell, and I'm sure they exist, but I've never actually met one. The usual reactions I get are curiosity, concern, and the best of cooperation and assistance. I've had beer, food, lifts, wing runners, help with derigging, hospitality - and I've met some terrific people. Even the mythical farmers daughter on one occasion (but perhaps I was dreaming). I've never damaged anything. Not me, not my glider, no property, no animals. Yes, maybe next time it will happen. I should not speak too soon. A smile and a friendly explanation goes a long way, I find. And so, I expect, would an up front apology and offer to pay for damage, if it was necessary. I can't imagine the need for police, or lawyers. Or documents in the glove box. Cheers /Tim/ /tra dire e fare c'è mezzo il mare/ On 24/03/2012 21:32, Christopher Mc Donnell wrote: Thanks Bernie That's the article I remember. Printed and ready for the glovebox. A little more prominence perhaps. - Original Message - *From:* Bernie Baer mailto:bb...@internode.on.net *To:* aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net mailto:aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net *Sent:* Saturday, March 24, 2012 5:46 PM *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] Easements in the air Here you go: http://2009.gfa.org.au/Docs/ops/Outlanding%20Legal%20Advice.pdf ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Easements in the air
Perhaps best treated as an opportunity to meet new and interesting people. Ive had plenty of outlandings (some would say too many ), and only once had a negative reaction from a farmer who watched me land right next to Gawler. I took his hostility as a challenge to win him over. While I enjoyed measured success in the goodwill stakes, his parting comment was you fought hard Blue, I was barracking for you to stay in the air you deserved to, which helped my ego no end. I had the most wonderful afternoon drinking homemade wine with Mario, overlooking a beautiful valley in Italy, while waiting for Tim to come and rescue me after Id plonked the glider into his pea paddock.. Its a memory Ill take fondly to my grave. Then there was the time . I like Tims advice be positive and friendly. Simon From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Tim Shirley Sent: Sunday, 25 March 2012 7:43 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Easements in the air I'm not sure what Terry's neighbour was growing... or perhaps he is the president of the local nudist club... Perhaps some perspective is needed. Outlandings are a normal part of our sport and almost all go well. Expecting the worst is not a good way to build confidence. In 35 years of X/C gliding I have had my share or outlandings, and I've done a lot of retrieves. I've heard stories about farmers from hell, and I'm sure they exist, but I've never actually met one. The usual reactions I get are curiosity, concern, and the best of cooperation and assistance. I've had beer, food, lifts, wing runners, help with derigging, hospitality - and I've met some terrific people. Even the mythical farmers daughter on one occasion (but perhaps I was dreaming). I've never damaged anything. Not me, not my glider, no property, no animals. Yes, maybe next time it will happen. I should not speak too soon. A smile and a friendly explanation goes a long way, I find. And so, I expect, would an up front apology and offer to pay for damage, if it was necessary. I can't imagine the need for police, or lawyers. Or documents in the glove box. Cheers Tim tra dire e fare c'è mezzo il mare On 24/03/2012 21:32, Christopher Mc Donnell wrote: Thanks Bernie That's the article I remember. Printed and ready for the glovebox. A little more prominence perhaps. - Original Message - From: Bernie Baer mailto:bb...@internode.on.net To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Easements in the air Here you go: http://2009.gfa.org.au/Docs/ops/Outlanding%20Legal%20Advice.pdf _ ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Easements in the air
Untitled DocumentOr documents in the glove box. Just to be with the trailer exemption as required. Too easy and one day could be handy. Be charming and disarming is definitly is the best and proven way to go. - Original Message - From: Tim Shirley To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 7:12 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Easements in the air I'm not sure what Terry's neighbour was growing... or perhaps he is the president of the local nudist club... Perhaps some perspective is needed. Outlandings are a normal part of our sport and almost all go well. Expecting the worst is not a good way to build confidence. In 35 years of X/C gliding I have had my share or outlandings, and I've done a lot of retrieves. I've heard stories about farmers from hell, and I'm sure they exist, but I've never actually met one. The usual reactions I get are curiosity, concern, and the best of cooperation and assistance. I've had beer, food, lifts, wing runners, help with derigging, hospitality - and I've met some terrific people. Even the mythical farmers daughter on one occasion (but perhaps I was dreaming). I've never damaged anything. Not me, not my glider, no property, no animals. Yes, maybe next time it will happen. I should not speak too soon. A smile and a friendly explanation goes a long way, I find. And so, I expect, would an up front apology and offer to pay for damage, if it was necessary. I can't imagine the need for police, or lawyers. Or documents in the glove box. Cheers Tim tra dire e fare c'è mezzo il mare On 24/03/2012 21:32, Christopher Mc Donnell wrote: Thanks Bernie That's the article I remember. Printed and ready for the glovebox. A little more prominence perhaps. - Original Message - From: Bernie Baer To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Easements in the air Here you go: http://2009.gfa.org.au/Docs/ops/Outlanding%20Legal%20Advice.pdf -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Tetra first flight
Some may have seen this already. http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24/ Cris ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] POOR things
Dunno about skids, but I do know what the US Air Force Academy bought last year. To quote DG: DG-Flugzeugbau got the contract for 5 Unlimited-Aerobatic Trainers, type DG-1001Club, in January 2011. In March we got another contract for 14 more Basic Trainers of the same type. This is the trainer version of the famous DG-1001 Series with a fixed landing gear and 18 meters wingspan - the DG-1001 Club. http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/dg1000-schulflugzeug-e.html (Scroll down) I thought about wheels-up landings but these have fixed U/C +|- SM On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 7:02 AM, Robert Hart ha...@interweft.com.au wrote: On 24/03/12 07:56, Christopher Mc Donnell wrote: http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/b83f40e71b9e42e2956e390fe096bf53/CO--Artificial-Turf-Landing-Strip/\ What I don't understand is the following:- The gliders don't have landing gear but skid to a stop on their bellies, so they can't use hard-surface runways. Officials say the previous natural grass landing strip was bumpier and harder on the gliders. but the article then says Last year the academy replaced its glider fleet with 19 new aircraft and 11 trailers at a cost of $4.8 million. What modern gliders only have skids??? -- Robert Hart ha...@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
