Re: [Aus-soaring] Mid Air collision risk
At 03:14 PM 30/04/2012, you wrote: John, It sounds like your FLARM or its antenna is defective. This is very easy and free to verify, by uploading a FLARM IGC log to the online range analysis: http://www.flarm.com/support/analyze/index_en.html or simply email it to me and I will take care of it. Mike, This is the second time you bring up a mysterious 'midair' which you decline to provide details about, even when requested by private email. We are happy to discuss and learn from facts but it is somewhat difficult to comment unsubstantiated rumors. Thanks Urs Rothacher FLARM ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Apart from the fact that it occurred that's all you are going to get from me because of promises of confidentiality that I made. I am surprised that you don't apparently know of this one. Perhaps the participants will let you know sometime. I'll ask if they've contacted you. Mike ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Mid Air collision risk
John, It sounds like your FLARM or its antenna is defective. This is very easy and free to verify, by uploading a FLARM IGC log to the online range analysis: http://www.flarm.com/support/analyze/index_en.html or simply email it to me and I will take care of it. Mike, This is the second time you bring up a mysterious 'midair' which you decline to provide details about, even when requested by private email. We are happy to discuss and learn from facts but it is somewhat difficult to comment unsubstantiated rumors. Thanks Urs Rothacher FLARM ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Mid Air collision risk
I too have been almost involved in a Mid-air - with two flarm equipped aircraft, 3 in fact! I was the tow pilot of a Glider/Tug combo. All aircraft where fitted with Flarms. On climb, through approx. 600 feet I observed a single glider tracking generally away on a divergent track from mine approx. 1000 ft above - I decided to turn 180 and clear off to another area. Whilst in this turn the glider decided to reposition, at speed, into the general area of my launch direction. He was behind and above throughout the turn. The Flarm was vacant! When it decided to protect itself I got a single flashing light on the flarm at 12 o'clock. Upon peering out over the front I had a glider at approx 5-10 degrees above the horizon just below the cowl line, at I would estimate 300-400 metres directly in front, turning from my left to right at about 10 degree's angle of bank. I started to turn left at approx. 20 degrees of bank as I still had a glider on the rope. I was in his blind spot as I was climbing to him. At this point it went south very quickly. No sooner had I initiated the turn, that glider reversed his turn like entering a thermal, now heading into the same airspace I was heading too. At this point we were no more than 200 metres, with about 50 feet of vertical separation. We both were wing up to each other and rapidly closing with no aspect change. I rolled the tug over to approx. 80 degrees of bank and loaded up in the turn in an effort to avoid what was looking very much like a certain collision. All I felt was the tow rope load getting higher and eventually the glider released. I sat for eternity waiting for a crunch as everything was below the wing to me. I have no idea how close this got but I estimate it was well under 100 metres. This all unfolded in under 10 seconds, many of which was lost looking ahead and reactions time. Upon landing I mentioned this to the relevant instructor. After all had landed without leading I asked the glider pilots if around the time of the launch their flarms had advised them of anything - All I got was the passenger thought the launch release was fantastic and the tug looked impressive! Of the 3 flarms all had provided nothing to help with SA. Throughout the launch both aircraft would not have been further than 3 km's apart vertically and horizontally. Yes it advised me and I took action to avoid, but the margin was well below any acceptable amount. Had my lookout been better I may have avoided this through earlier re-positioning efforts. So many times in the Tug I have watched gliders and seen the flarm idle with nothing displayed, through various firmware upgrades etc. The antennae was located in a clear window up high so as not to be shielded too much. I think they are a complete diversion to good airmanship and a highly vigilant lookout. I also think they will be the loosing technology. Personally I would save the 750 euro and wait for the mandated system and use the funds on whatever that maybe - a good bet will be adsb-out - and you go buy an instrument if you want to see anything around you. Regards John -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Peter Stephenson (Internode) Sent: Sunday, 29 April 2012 5:48 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Mid Air collision risk Having been involved with two near hits in the last 10 years, both of which would have been prevented by a Flarm, it seems bloody stupid not have a 750 Euro unit not installed in *every* aircraft. PeterS On 22/04/2012 12:29 PM, S Smith wrote: > Greetings > > If you look in the following database, > > http://aviation-safety.net/index.php > > which is a wiki and lists aircraft crashes around the world back to > 1920's > > you will find very very very very few mid-airs. > > > So far this year, for 896 recorded accidents there are the following > only; > > 3 - military,training mid-airs2 were combat jets / 1 was helicopters > > 1- GA, R22 helicopter vs Beechcraft in USA - both landed safely. > > That's it. > For the whole world. > > Now I accept this database is not a complete listing, > > and let's remember how many millions of flights there have been in > that time, > > but as a percentage, just 1 GA mid-air out of 896 reported accidents in last 6 months - a pretty reasonable sample size. > > Maybe we should think about the causes of the other 890 too ! > > and get a sense of proportion. > > regards > Stu > ___ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mai
Re: [Aus-soaring] Mid Air collision risk
At 08:39 PM 29/04/2012, you wrote: That said a better system would appear to be a compromise with similar systems being used across GA, RAAus and Gliding, good luck with that! It is called ADSB. A suitable Mode S (also works for Mode A/C) transponder and a GPS make the ADSB OUT part. A suitable receiver gives you ADSB IN and you can see all the other ADSB OUT traffic. It is a "short range system" - it only goes to the local horizon :-) Much of the heavy metal flying around nowadays is ADSB OUT equipped and gradually the regional airliners flying doc etc. A reasonable compromise right now is to install a Mode S transponder and a Zaon MRX. TCAS equipped aircraft can see you and you'll get warning there's someone else around if they have a Mode A/C or S transponder and you're in radar coverage. Flarm as it exists right now is a nice "proof of concept" device. It badly needs more rf power which means a licensed dedicated frequency. This is difficult to organise. If it was mandated in all aircraft it would likely come with a requirement to be installed by a qualified installer and be checked at least every 2 years etc etc. It certainly wouldn't be a Euro 750 device for you. Adrian and I looked at a Flarm like device in 2000 and got as far as deciding how often to transmit and what information would be transmitted. Adrian's son who is also in the instrument field but with much more rf expertise suggested we go to 2.4 GHz for a proof of concept device and we figured about 6 devices would do this but with a maximum range of 5Km we thought a proof of concept was all it would be and it wasn't going to prove much anyway as we knew it would work. Getting a better frequency with more power seemed too difficult as did getting enough aircraft fitted to make a difference. I'll repeat what I said a few days ago. There was another Flarm on Flarm midair with both Flarms apparently working recently. Flarm doesn't prevent mid airs - at best it lets you know there's another Flarm equipped aircraft nearby. PowerFlarm may still have some issues going by what happened at the US Seniors recently. Mike -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Peter Stephenson (Internode) Sent: Sunday, 29 April 2012 5:48 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Mid Air collision risk Having been involved with two near hits in the last 10 years, both of which would have been prevented by a Flarm, it seems bloody stupid not have a 750 Euro unit not installed in *every* aircraft. PeterS On 22/04/2012 12:29 PM, S Smith wrote: > Greetings > > If you look in the following database, > > http://aviation-safety.net/index.php > > which is a wiki and lists aircraft crashes around the world back to > 1920's > > you will find very very very very few mid-airs. > > > So far this year, for 896 recorded accidents there are the following > only; > > 3 - military,training mid-airs2 were combat jets / 1 was helicopters > > 1- GA, R22 helicopter vs Beechcraft in USA - both landed safely. > > That's it. > For the whole world. > > Now I accept this database is not a complete listing, > > and let's remember how many millions of flights there have been in > that time, > > but as a percentage, just 1 GA mid-air out of 896 reported accidents in last 6 months - a pretty reasonable sample size. > > Maybe we should think about the causes of the other 890 too ! > > and get a sense of proportion. > > regards > Stu > ___ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Forum
Hi all I have been on the list for a while, is there a good accessible gliding forum in australia any where. Regards Justin Justin Sinclair 17 Queen st. Scarborough Qld 4020 Hm 07 3885 8949 Mob 0421 061 811 Email jjsincl...@optusnet.com.au Sent from my iPad ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Mid Air collision risk
On 29/04/2012 9:22 PM, gstev...@bigpond.com wrote: Peter, I think you have got to the nub of it, but I am somewhat surprised that you feel it necessary to bring this topic up again. Because I have been "stewing" on my reply. Whilst Stu's figures are no doubt valid for actual strikes, the near misses hardly ever get reported, and therefore tallied up into (yet another), set of statistics. Unfortunately, (to my knowledge), there are no statistics for near misses, and more importantly, for glider pilot lives saved by flarm I do not know of ANY glider pilot who flies regularly (lets say 100 hours per year), over a few seasons, who has not experienced a near miss at least once in his total flying experience. However do keep in mind the proven fact that mid-airs are most likely to occur within a few km of a glider airfield, so it is a certainty that early solo pilots can be, and are, right in the firing line! Time and time again it has been said that the use of flarm is an adjunct only to good lookout. So let me iterate - LOOKOUT, LOOKOUT, LOOKOUT. Both incidents that I was involved in occurred because the aircraft were in each others blind spots. PeterS ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] 51st Multiclass Nationals - Benalla
Hi all, This is to advise that entries for the 51st Multiclass Nationals are now open - see the competition website at www.deltaone.id.au/BenallaMulti13 for details and online entry form. The event will run from 7th-18th January at Benalla, and we look forward to seeing the usual suspects and many new faces as well. Competition Director will be Peter Gray, and John Switala is chairing the organising committee. I may have a minor role somewhere around the place (webmaster, at least). -- Cheers /Tim/ /tra dire e fare c'รจ mezzo il mare/ ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Mid Air collision risk
Sean, With respect, I posit that you totally miss PS 's point. What he is suggesting is that EVERY recreational aircraft (GA, RAAus, Gliding), be fitted with flarm. No flawed logic there! I earlier drew comparison with the mandating of compulsory use of seat belts in motor vehicles -somewhat controversial at the time; today an accepted fact. Mandate flarm, and immediately its benefits compound. Let me say that given the pace of technological development, I would expect that in the years to come , flarm will be regarded as a rather quaint chapter in collision avoidance. In the meantime it is the best we have, and it is bloody good system in comparison with nothing at all! Do however keep in mind the primary directive: LOOKOUT, LOOKOUT, LOOKOUT! Gary - Original Message - From: "Sean Jorgensen-Day" To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'" Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 8:39 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Mid Air collision risk Replace "Would" with "Could" and I'll agree with you. I seem to remember that one person on this list decided that they "would" be safer if they fitted a flarm to their aircraft. They forgot that the other aircraft needs to be fitted with a flarm to. Flawed logic! That said a better system would appear to be a compromise with similar systems being used across GA, RAAus and Gliding, good luck with that! -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Peter Stephenson (Internode) Sent: Sunday, 29 April 2012 5:48 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Mid Air collision risk Having been involved with two near hits in the last 10 years, both of which would have been prevented by a Flarm, it seems bloody stupid not have a 750 Euro unit not installed in *every* aircraft. PeterS On 22/04/2012 12:29 PM, S Smith wrote: Greetings If you look in the following database, http://aviation-safety.net/index.php which is a wiki and lists aircraft crashes around the world back to 1920's you will find very very very very few mid-airs. So far this year, for 896 recorded accidents there are the following only; 3 - military,training mid-airs2 were combat jets / 1 was helicopters 1- GA, R22 helicopter vs Beechcraft in USA - both landed safely. That's it. For the whole world. Now I accept this database is not a complete listing, and let's remember how many millions of flights there have been in that time, but as a percentage, just 1 GA mid-air out of 896 reported accidents in last 6 months - a pretty reasonable sample size. Maybe we should think about the causes of the other 890 too ! and get a sense of proportion. regards Stu ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Mid Air collision risk
Peter, I think you have got to the nub of it, but I am somewhat surprised that you feel it necessary to bring this topic up again. Whilst Stu's figures are no doubt valid for actual strikes, the near misses hardly ever get reported, and therefore tallied up into (yet another), set of statistics. Unfortunately, (to my knowledge), there are no statistics for near misses, and more importantly, for glider pilot lives saved by flarm I do not know of ANY glider pilot who flies regularly (lets say 100 hours per year), over a few seasons, who has not experienced a near miss at least once in his total flying experience. However do keep in mind the proven fact that mid-airs are most likely to occur within a few km of a glider airfield, so it is a certainty that early solo pilots can be, and are, right in the firing line! Time and time again it has been said that the use of flarm is an adjunct only to good lookout. So let me iterate - LOOKOUT, LOOKOUT, LOOKOUT. Peter, you will certainly remember that the requirement for the mandatory use of flarms in GFA approved competitions, was almost solely driven by competition pilots in this country - against some bureaucratic resistance. Something like the resistance to the introduction of seat belts in motor cars, if you go that far back! In the wash up, seat belts save lives: Proven fact. In the wash up flarm saves lives: Proven fact. QED. Military combat situations aside, my feeling is that the use of flarm, has already (by far), saved more lives than those saved by the use of a parachute within the time frame following the introduction of flarm. So . how many lives has flarm saved? Let me say not mine ... Yet! ... and in the bigger picture, I hope never! Today I cannot conceive of flying without a working flarm! This would seem to me to be a very good place to acknowledge the debt that soaring pilots in this country owe to Nigel Andrews, who introduced the (Swiss developed), system to Australia. Thank you Nigel. Gary - Original Message - From: "Peter Stephenson (Internode)" To: Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 6:17 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Mid Air collision risk Having been involved with two near hits in the last 10 years, both of which would have been prevented by a Flarm, it seems bloody stupid not have a 750 Euro unit not installed in *every* aircraft. PeterS On 22/04/2012 12:29 PM, S Smith wrote: Greetings If you look in the following database, http://aviation-safety.net/index.php which is a wiki and lists aircraft crashes around the world back to 1920's you will find very very very very few mid-airs. So far this year, for 896 recorded accidents there are the following only; 3 - military,training mid-airs2 were combat jets / 1 was helicopters 1- GA, R22 helicopter vs Beechcraft in USA - both landed safely. That's it. For the whole world. Now I accept this database is not a complete listing, and let's remember how many millions of flights there have been in that time, but as a percentage, just 1 GA mid-air out of 896 reported accidents in last 6 months - a pretty reasonable sample size. Maybe we should think about the causes of the other 890 too ! and get a sense of proportion. regards Stu ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Mid Air collision risk
Replace "Would" with "Could" and I'll agree with you. I seem to remember that one person on this list decided that they "would" be safer if they fitted a flarm to their aircraft. They forgot that the other aircraft needs to be fitted with a flarm to. Flawed logic! That said a better system would appear to be a compromise with similar systems being used across GA, RAAus and Gliding, good luck with that! -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Peter Stephenson (Internode) Sent: Sunday, 29 April 2012 5:48 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Mid Air collision risk Having been involved with two near hits in the last 10 years, both of which would have been prevented by a Flarm, it seems bloody stupid not have a 750 Euro unit not installed in *every* aircraft. PeterS On 22/04/2012 12:29 PM, S Smith wrote: > Greetings > > If you look in the following database, > > http://aviation-safety.net/index.php > > which is a wiki and lists aircraft crashes around the world back to > 1920's > > you will find very very very very few mid-airs. > > > So far this year, for 896 recorded accidents there are the following > only; > > 3 - military,training mid-airs2 were combat jets / 1 was helicopters > > 1- GA, R22 helicopter vs Beechcraft in USA - both landed safely. > > That's it. > For the whole world. > > Now I accept this database is not a complete listing, > > and let's remember how many millions of flights there have been in > that time, > > but as a percentage, just 1 GA mid-air out of 896 reported accidents in last 6 months - a pretty reasonable sample size. > > Maybe we should think about the causes of the other 890 too ! > > and get a sense of proportion. > > regards > Stu > ___ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Mid Air collision risk
Having been involved with two near hits in the last 10 years, both of which would have been prevented by a Flarm, it seems bloody stupid not have a 750 Euro unit not installed in *every* aircraft. PeterS On 22/04/2012 12:29 PM, S Smith wrote: Greetings If you look in the following database, http://aviation-safety.net/index.php which is a wiki and lists aircraft crashes around the world back to 1920's you will find very very very very few mid-airs. So far this year, for 896 recorded accidents there are the following only; 3 - military,training mid-airs2 were combat jets / 1 was helicopters 1- GA, R22 helicopter vs Beechcraft in USA - both landed safely. That's it. For the whole world. Now I accept this database is not a complete listing, and let's remember how many millions of flights there have been in that time, but as a percentage, just 1 GA mid-air out of 896 reported accidents in last 6 months - a pretty reasonable sample size. Maybe we should think about the causes of the other 890 too ! and get a sense of proportion. regards Stu ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
