[Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
Hallo Wombat, Thanks for that clarification. I totally missed the point in Christopher McDonnell's earlier posting! The article and comments:Funny? Perhaps. A sad commentary on US journalism and the knowledge of gliding by the average US citizen? No doubt. Uninformed reporting such as comments like those printed in Daily Inter Lake.com could never happen in Australia? I wish! This news report is a sad commentary on the (lack of), gliding knowledge in the US by the general public. In Australia, unfortunately, it is little different here. I have followed all the Development ideas that have been advanced for the promotion of our sport (and participated in more than a few trial projects - all total failures in any absolute sense), over the past 30 years, but it is seems obvious now that we have totally under-estimated the ignorance of the public on even the most basic aspects of our sport. I feel that this must somehow be rectified. Especially at the political level. The pitiful quantum of money that is doled out to the GFA for the administration of our sport is a joke. Let me amend that - it is patently totally and utterly inadequate, and is in fact a bloody insult to every member of the GFA! Political problems demand a political solution. Many years ago, Chris Stevens, (COO), as a paid officer of GFA commenced some good work here. It was never followed up. Those members with long memories, or with a love of history, know that the GFA had more than a sympathetic ear under the patronage of (Sir) Don Anderson who was Director-General of Civil Aviation from 1956 - 1973. There is no doubt that Donald Anderson understood gliding and its value to this developing Nation over and above gliding being "just another sport". I wonder if it was totally co-incidental that many people regard this period as the "golden years" of Australian gliding? OK, so what do we do about our current totally untenable situation - which will become worse if the declining membership issue is not addressed? The movement is contracting - maybe dying. Like it or not, despite the contribution and best efforts of highly intelligent,motivated and knowledgeable members of our sport NONE of the promotion methods of the past 30 years have (in the long term), worked. We therefore need to move on. To what you may ask. There needs to be a real input of funds, to stimulate a serious and ongoing campaign to raise the awareness of politicians, and thereby everyone else as to the value of our sport. So where are these funds to come from? From the government of course. So how do we get these government funds. Well it just so happens that GFA has about $1,000,000 "in loose change lying around". As many contributors to this forum have noted, the GFA Board is not elected by the members and it does not have to answer to the members. I will not go into this, other than to say that herein lies an opportunity. That $1,000,000 is allocated to all sorts of projects.The Board has the power to unilaterally decide where funds might be allocated. I suggest that as a matter of urgency the Board gives very serious consideration to committing ALL of those funds to achieving a political solution to reinvigorating our sport. My initial inclination was to use the funds to pay a professional "drummer" to make our case in the "corridors of power" -$100,000 over 10 years say, but as we have a new government assuming power in the next few days it may not take that long, if the right advocate is chosen and we as a movement move ASAP. Alternatively, in a more extended scenario, the GFA can use the funds to eventually get its own politician into the parliament, or distribute the funds to educate many MP's so that they become sympathetic to the cause. Of course, GFA may expend all its funds and not get a result. Funnily enough I suspect this would not be a big deal. Hallo CASA - over to you! What are you going to do about administrating everything that GFA does. [And make no mistake about it, does very well.] Lets move on to a worst case scenario.Frankly this something to shiver about, but I guess "no gliding at all" meets this criteria. A total mind boggle, but almost certainly amiable to a political solution. One further point: I have run this idea past one Board member, and all the competition pilots present at a recent pilots meeting in Kingaroy. I can say that the reception to the idea was less than enthusiastic from the Board member, and was greeted with total silence from the Kingaroy pilots! In the latter case this is perhaps the right response, as it is something that requires VERY serious thought indeed. As a small aside relating to the value of getting your government on side, let me remind you of the decision of the British Government many years ago to supply 100 Twin Asters to the British gliding movement: These ships were state of the art training machines at the time. In the bigger pi
[Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
Been lurking for to long. Gliding Died a long time ago RIP I used to spend $5000.00 to $2.00 a year on mostly gliding and a bit of fixed wing. Thanks Dave my honesty has set me free, hire and fire at your Camden gliding business! The people who introduced me to gliding at Camden in 1981 helped me get scholarship when a 2000 ft launch was $8.00 and 3000 ft $10.00 I mowed lawns to raise the monies to fly I was 14 years old. There was more than ten of us on Scholarships in 1982 The skill I learnt that helped me get my inaugural win in 2005 started Go ahead pick your battles the only way you can win is on the ground running your so called gliding business. Gliding is a Sport not a place for politics, I was taught to be safe and promote being safe, commercial operators run gliding as a business Clubs support and nurture the skill set a develop winners. How many winners work for you? Off camping and shooting and skiing :) ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
seem to remember Sir Donald was from Waikerie and he kept an eye on his gliding boys at Waikerie in those golden years. My sister worked in media most of her life and suggested say once every 2 years we advise media in our area of local contacts and this could include all flying like RAAus and GA contacts and possibly national bodies. Ian M On 20 August 2010 05:03, Gary Stevenson wrote: > Hallo Wombat, > Thanks for that clarification. I totally missed the point in Christopher > McDonnell's earlier posting! > > The article and comments:Funny? Perhaps. A sad commentary on US journalism > and the knowledge of gliding by the average US citizen? No doubt. > > Uninformed reporting such as comments like those printed in Daily Inter > Lake.com could never happen in Australia? I wish! This new > ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
Gary+ others, Meant to say think we (GFA and CLUBS) need to convert try and convert as many as possible 3 month into 12 months memberships. Thus I think 3 month members should get a letter one month out explaining their options for the future and I would do a McDonnalds "we have a special for you upgrade your 3months to 12 months by paying $xxx (about $150 or whatever) but you must do it by expiry date of say Oct30" One week before they get email reminder and on the day send a SMS to UPGRADE TODAY. These days I insure with Bingle (online version of AAMI at 2/3 the price) and at 12noon of exp day I get an SMS and go on line and it is paid. It works for AAMI. So my thoughts are McDonnalds upgrade, or do you want to buy this weeks special at Supercheap or top up your phone credit before a certain date to keep your credit. Even Woollies fuel is spend $5 on 2 milk and get another 4c/lit off so milk costs $1 a litre Importantly lets all do something rather than sit on our hands till the last person has to turn out the lights Any other ideas out there? Ian McPhee ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
I couldnt agree more, Ian. In addition to 'chivvying' those who have already evidenced some interest by taking a flight, lets get a bit more smart about those we pitch our market to. I have already revealed my disinterest in the treadmill of gift companies/grandpa's birthday/air experience flights. Fine, dont refuse them, but they wont create new members. Lets make it easy for other pilots to try (or re-try!) gliding. Include model aircraft enthusiasts, hang gliders, RAA and GA pilots. They have already revealed their susceptibility. And dont just plod through 'effects of controls', perhaps done by a relatively new instructorunless that instructor has initiative, enthusiasm, some soaring skills and the ability to demonstrate the 'Joy of Soaring'. Show what is possible after plodding through the 'effects of controls'...gliding IS different! For that matterwhat about schoolchildren? If anyone wants to know more about the highly successful 'Flying' course that is PART OF THE SCHOOL PROGRAMME for all of the year 10 students at a school on Darwin then I am happy to give details, and a professionally produced DVD is available. Quite a number of established/confirmed/advanced glider pilots have shown interest in the fact that such a programme exists, and has done for ten consecutive years now. But not one, to my knowledge, even though they expressed great approval for the idea, has tried to introduce anything similar in their locality. Its pissing with rain here in the UK. Thats my excuse for so many posts in such a short time! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:26:50 +1000 From: mrsoar...@gmail.com To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement Gary+ others, Meant to say think we (GFA and CLUBS) need to convert try and convert as many as possible 3 month into 12 months memberships. Thus I think 3 month members should get a letter one month out explaining their options for the future and I would do a McDonnalds "we have a special for you upgrade your 3months to 12 months by paying $xxx (about $150 or whatever) but you must do it by expiry date of say Oct30" One week before they get email reminder and on the day send a SMS to UPGRADE TODAY. These days I insure with Bingle (online version of AAMI at 2/3 the price) and at 12noon of exp day I get an SMS and go on line and it is paid. It works for AAMI. So my thoughts are McDonnalds upgrade, or do you want to buy this weeks special at Supercheap or top up your phone credit before a certain date to keep your credit. Even Woollies fuel is spend $5 on 2 milk and get another 4c/lit off so milk costs $1 a litre Importantly lets all do something rather than sit on our hands till the last person has to turn out the lights Any other ideas out there? Ian McPhee ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
There is a club near Sydney that has become so dependent on joy rides that they have 32 listed instructors but just 125-ish flying members, no cross country or competition curriculum. They run a full time operation yet cry poor. I may be overstating it, but not by much. Is this what youre talking about? What should be a worry for our sport is that they are the first point of contact with gliding for nearly ¼ the population of Australia. _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of gavin wrigley Sent: Friday, 27 August 2010 7:46 AM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement I couldnt agree more, Ian. In addition to 'chivvying' those who have already evidenced some interest by taking a flight, lets get a bit more smart about those we pitch our market to. I have already revealed my disinterest in the treadmill of gift companies/grandpa's birthday/air experience flights. Fine, dont refuse them, but they wont create new members. Lets make it easy for other pilots to try (or re-try!) gliding. Include model aircraft enthusiasts, hang gliders, RAA and GA pilots. They have already revealed their susceptibility. And dont just plod through 'effects of controls', perhaps done by a relatively new instructorunless that instructor has initiative, enthusiasm, some soaring skills and the ability to demonstrate the 'Joy of Soaring'. Show what is possible after plodding through the 'effects of controls'...gliding IS different! For that matterwhat about schoolchildren? If anyone wants to know more about the highly successful 'Flying' course that is PART OF THE SCHOOL PROGRAMME for all of the year 10 students at a school on Darwin then I am happy to give details, and a professionally produced DVD is available. Quite a number of established/confirmed/advanced glider pilots have shown interest in the fact that such a programme exists, and has done for ten consecutive years now. But not one, to my knowledge, even though they expressed great approval for the idea, has tried to introduce anything similar in their locality. Its pissing with rain here in the UK. Thats my excuse for so many posts in such a short time! _ Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:26:50 +1000 From: mrsoar...@gmail.com To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement Gary+ others, Meant to say think we (GFA and CLUBS) need to convert try and convert as many as possible 3 month into 12 months memberships. Thus I think 3 month members should get a letter one month out explaining their options for the future and I would do a McDonnalds "we have a special for you upgrade your 3months to 12 months by paying $xxx (about $150 or whatever) but you must do it by expiry date of say Oct30" One week before they get email reminder and on the day send a SMS to UPGRADE TODAY. These days I insure with Bingle (online version of AAMI at 2/3 the price) and at 12noon of exp day I get an SMS and go on line and it is paid. It works for AAMI. So my thoughts are McDonnalds upgrade, or do you want to buy this weeks special at Supercheap or top up your phone credit before a certain date to keep your credit. Even Woollies fuel is spend $5 on 2 milk and get another 4c/lit off so milk costs $1 a litre Importantly lets all do something rather than sit on our hands till the last person has to turn out the lights Any other ideas out there? Ian McPhee ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- This message has been checked by EnBox Email Security and is believed to be clean. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
Hi Gavin, Given that I have been trying to convince people that the schools are a major market to pitch to and at the last Avalon we based our display on START YOU AVIATION CAREER GLIDING and just not having the time to put a DVD together I would really appreciate a copy of your DVD. I wont go into the other arguments, people seem to forget their own past. People would do well to remember that advice is just the past picked up, dusted off, the bad bits thrown away and the good bits polished up to suit what they think. Cheers Patch. - Original Message - From: "gavin wrigley" To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Friday, 27 August, 2010 7:46:13 AM GMT +10:00 Canberra / Melbourne / Sydney Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement I couldnt agree more, Ian. In addition to 'chivvying' those who have already evidenced some interest by taking a flight, lets get a bit more smart about those we pitch our market to. I have already revealed my disinterest in the treadmill of gift companies/grandpa's birthday/air experience flights. Fine, dont refuse them, but they wont create new members. Lets make it easy for other pilots to try (or re-try!) gliding. Include model aircraft enthusiasts, hang gliders, RAA and GA pilots. They have already revealed their susceptibility. And dont just plod through 'effects of controls', perhaps done by a relatively new instructorunless that instructor has initiative, enthusiasm, some soaring skills and the ability to demonstrate the 'Joy of Soaring'. Show what is possible after plodding through the 'effects of controls'...gliding IS different! For that matterwhat about schoolchildren? If anyone wants to know more about the highly successful 'Flying' course that is PART OF THE SCHOOL PROGRAMME for all of the year 10 students at a school on Darwin then I am happy to give details, and a professionally produced DVD is available. Quite a number of established/confirmed/advanced glider pilots have shown interest in the fact that such a programme exists, and has done for ten consecutive years now. But not one, to my knowledge, even though they expressed great approval for the idea, has tried to introduce anything similar in their locality. Its pissing with rain here in the UK. Thats my excuse for so many posts in such a short time! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:26:50 +1000 From: mrsoar...@gmail.com To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement Gary+ others, Meant to say think we (GFA and CLUBS) need to convert try and convert as many as possible 3 month into 12 months memberships. Thus I think 3 month members should get a letter one month out explaining their options for the future and I would do a McDonnalds "we have a special for you upgrade your 3months to 12 months by paying $xxx (about $150 or whatever) but you must do it by expiry date of say Oct30" One week before they get email reminder and on the day send a SMS to UPGRADE TODAY. These days I insure with Bingle (online version of AAMI at 2/3 the price) and at 12noon of exp day I get an SMS and go on line and it is paid. It works for AAMI. So my thoughts are McDonnalds upgrade, or do you want to buy this weeks special at Supercheap or top up your phone credit before a certain date to keep your credit. Even Woollies fuel is spend $5 on 2 milk and get another 4c/lit off so milk costs $1 a litre Importantly lets all do something rather than sit on our hands till the last person has to turn out the lights Any other ideas out there? Ian McPhee ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
I would also add a pitch to get the parents roped in. For the near to medium term we want the mums and dads - they have the disposable income and some of the skill sets we need. Getting to them through the schools works two ways: it sows the seeds in the kids (most of whom we lose again when they start jobs and families in my experience, possibly to come back again later in life) and it is easier to justify the time investment of the parents because they'll spend it "bonding" with their teenagers. Ulrich On Fri 27/08/10 11:03 , Ruth Patching patch...@westnet.com.au sent: Hi Gavin, Given that I have been trying to convince people that the schools are a major market to pitch to and at the last Avalon we based our display on START YOU AVIATION CAREER GLIDING and just not having the time to put a DVD together I would really appreciate a copy of your DVD. I wont go into the other arguments, people seem to forget their own past. People would do well to remember that advice is just the past picked up, dusted off, the bad bits thrown away and the good bits polished up to suit what they think. Cheers Patch. - Original Message - From: "gavin wrigley" To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Friday, 27 August, 2010 7:46:13 AM GMT +10:00 Canberra / Melbourne / Sydney Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement I couldnt agree more, Ian. In addition to 'chivvying' those who have already evidenced some interest by taking a flight, lets get a bit more smart about those we pitch our market to. I have already revealed my disinterest in the treadmill of gift companies/grandpa's birthday/air experience flights. Fine, dont refuse them, but they wont create new members. Lets make it easy for other pilots to try (or re-try!) gliding. Include model aircraft enthusiasts, hang gliders, RAA and GA pilots. They have already revealed their susceptibility. And dont just plod through 'effects of controls', perhaps done by a relatively new instructorunless that instructor has initiative, enthusiasm, some soaring skills and the ability to demonstrate the 'Joy of Soaring'. Show what is possible after plodding through the 'effects of controls'...gliding IS different! For that matterwhat about schoolchildren? If anyone wants to know more about the highly successful 'Flying' course that is PART OF THE SCHOOL PROGRAMME for all of the year 10 students at a school on Darwin then I am happy to give details, and a professionally produced DVD is available. Quite a number of established/confirmed/advanced glider pilots have shown interest in the fact that such a programme exists, and has done for ten consecutive years now. But not one, to my knowledge, even though they expressed great approval for the idea, has tried to introduce anything similar in their locality. Its pissing with rain here in the UK. Thats my excuse for so many posts in such a short time! - Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:26:50 +1000 From: mrsoar...@gmail.com To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement Gary+ others, Meant to say think we (GFA and CLUBS) need to convert try and convert as many as possible 3 month into 12 months memberships. Thus I think 3 month members should get a letter one month out explaining their options for the future and I would do a McDonnalds "we have a special for you upgrade your 3months to 12 months by paying $xxx (about $150 or whatever) but you must do it by expiry date of say Oct30" One week before they get email reminder and on the day send a SMS to UPGRADE TODAY. These days I insure with Bingle (online version of AAMI at 2/3 the price) and at 12noon of exp day I get an SMS and go on line and it is paid. It works for AAMI. So my thoughts are McDonnalds upgrade, or do you want to buy this weeks special at Supercheap or top up your phone credit before a certain date to keep your credit. Even Woollies fuel is spend $5 on 2 milk and get another 4c/lit off so milk costs $1 a litre Importantly lets all do something rather than sit on our hands till the last person has to turn out the lights Any other ideas out there? Ian McPhee ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
What opportunity might there be to join forces with Air Force Cadets? They are a group of kids who have obviously shown a ganuine interest in aviation as a career. I believe they do get some flying exposure during their training, but I get the impression they are limited to what the RAAF can afford to sponsor (which right now would be very little - same as the general Army Reserves, etc) I'd be surprised if it hasn't been tried before - so what experiences have people had with the RAAF Air Cadets? -- Nelson Handcock 0409 149919 http://www.linkedin.com/in/nelsonhandcockaustralia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
The Air Cadets regularly contact Gliding Clubs ( we have been on several occasions in the past) to ask if we can provide flying experience for their cadets. We have complied at times, but find the red tape and procedures needed to take up under 18yo potential pilots and the amount of money the Air cadets have to pay for the privilege don't make it very attractive . You have to have suitably qualified passenger pilots (AEF) they have to have Police Check in the previous 6 months and although some participants may enter aviation, somewhere, there is little chance they will train with our club as they usually come from the city 200k away in either direction. We have tried promotions, free flying etc, and gained zero response apart from their trial/AE/joy flight ,but the ones that have rocked up at the club and just want to learn to fly are the ones that stay. After 3 years of no training we now have 5 under training all signed up since January this year, of which 2 have recently gone solo. These probably all come by some personal contact with current members, they came wanting to learn, not to try it out - Original Message - From: Nelson Handcock To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement What opportunity might there be to join forces with Air Force Cadets? They are a group of kids who have obviously shown a ganuine interest in aviation as a career. I believe they do get some flying exposure during their training, but I get the impression they are limited to what the RAAF can afford to sponsor (which right now would be very little - same as the general Army Reserves, etc) I'd be surprised if it hasn't been tried before - so what experiences have people had with the RAAF Air Cadets? -- Nelson Handcock 0409 149919 http://www.linkedin.com/in/nelsonhandcockaustralia -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
The air force cadets are already involved in gliding. I joined the cadets several years ago and took up gliding seperately after becoming frustrated at the lack of progress. Things seem to have changed, they are regularly flying out of murray bridge now. Perhaps someone involved can comment in more detail about the training going on? > What opportunity might there be to join forces with Air Force Cadets? > > They are a group of kids who have obviously shown a ganuine interest in > aviation as a career. > > I believe they do get some flying exposure during their training, but I get > the impression they are limited to what the RAAF can afford to sponsor > (which right now would be very little - same as the general Army Reserves, > etc) > > I'd be surprised if it hasn't been tried before - so what experiences have > people had with the RAAF Air Cadets? > > > -- > Nelson Handcock > 0409 149919 > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/nelsonhandcockaustralia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
The air cadets is a good spot to look for interest. Out of the six juniors regularly coming up to Bacchus Marsh at the moment, five are air cadets - and I'm an army cadet... ;-) They've actually started funding more direct flying, with about four gliding scholarships for Victoria. Best Regards Ailsa On 27 August 2010 13:07, Peter Brookman wrote: > The Air Cadets regularly contact Gliding Clubs ( we have been on several > occasions in the past) to ask if we can provide flying experience for their > cadets. We have complied at times, but find the red tape and procedures > needed to take up under 18yo potential pilots and the amount of money the > Air cadets have to pay for the privilege don't make it very attractive . You > have to have suitably qualified passenger pilots (AEF) they have to have > Police Check in the previous 6 months and although some participants may > enter aviation, somewhere, there is little chance they will train with our > club as they usually come from the city 200k away in either direction. > We have tried promotions, free flying etc, and gained zero response apart > from their trial/AE/joy flight ,but the ones that have rocked up at the club > and just want to learn to fly are the ones that stay. > After 3 years of no training we now have 5 under training all signed up > since January this year, of which 2 have recently gone solo. These probably > all come by some personal contact with current members, they came wanting to > learn, not to try it out > > - Original Message - > *From:* Nelson Handcock > *To:* aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > *Sent:* Friday, August 27, 2010 12:05 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement > > What opportunity might there be to join forces with Air Force Cadets? > > They are a group of kids who have obviously shown a ganuine interest in > aviation as a career. > > I believe they do get some flying exposure during their training, but I get > the impression they are limited to what the RAAF can afford to sponsor > (which right now would be very little - same as the general Army Reserves, > etc) > > I'd be surprised if it hasn't been tried before - so what experiences have > people had with the RAAF Air Cadets? > > > -- > Nelson Handcock > 0409 149919 > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/nelsonhandcockaustralia > > -- > > ___ > > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > ___ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
The AAFC are pretty active around the Sydney area and other parts of NSW. The organisers are members of gliding clubs as well and there are courses run at Bathurst, for example and elsewhere. The result of the courses is some cadets joining clubs. NSW Gliding started a program this year giving GFA members under 18 that have gone solo $200 to their home club to be applied against fees or flying. We have almost twenty signed up now. That is obviously not the answer but it is step in the right direction. Getting back on the topic. To reverse the trend, things have to happen at club level more than waiting for a State Association or GFA to "do something about it". Each Club should have a look at themselves more like a business trying to attract customers who come back and continually purchase the service that is provided. If it was your own business and it was the way you make your living, what would you do differently from a customer service, customer retention and marketing your small perspective? If each Club did that, IMHO you would see change. /daveb On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 12:35 PM, Nelson Handcock wrote: > What opportunity might there be to join forces with Air Force Cadets? > > They are a group of kids who have obviously shown a ganuine interest in > aviation as a career. > > I believe they do get some flying exposure during their training, but I get > the impression they are limited to what the RAAF can afford to sponsor > (which right now would be very little - same as the general Army Reserves, > etc) > > I'd be surprised if it hasn't been tried before - so what experiences have > people had with the RAAF Air Cadets? > > > -- > Nelson Handcock > 0409 149919 > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/nelsonhandcockaustralia > > ___ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > -- Sent from my Mosquito VH-FQD Try Gliding www.gliding.com.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
Paul, You are right. It is rather sad that the gliding club close to the largest city in Australia does not seem to convert many of its large number of its AEFs to gliding. Do they hand out pamplets or preferably videos etc.? It seems that many instructors get their flying free from the back seat of a DG 1000 and tugpilots gets theirs launching but do they have a real interest in converting AEFs to members?. Re air cadets. LKSC has done somehing to make gliding affordable for air cadets. I have personally at no cost to the club built a winch powered by a Chevy 454 ci motor using Dyneema rope which gives high safe launches. I have also just bought a Winch launch Assistant which shows the speed of the glider being launched on a display in the winch which will hopefully give even higher, safer launches. We are subsidising juniors membership to $40 which does not even cover the capitation fee associated with our lease, half glider hire rates and membership by a generous donation of $100 pa per cadet aged 15/18 yo. Total of club membership and GFA is $76, which, coupled with a winch launch charge of $12 which gives a launch of 1,800/2'000 ft. We hope it is an offer to good to refuse. There are 90 AAFC cadets in our area and the hope is we will build up a cadre of young pilots . When AAFC cadets come to our club to fly an AAFC sponsored flight they tell us that aerotow etc. makes gliding unaffordable for them. Hopefully our initiatives will change all that. What disturbs me is that LKSC has approached both GFA and NSWGA asking for help to reduce the GFA membership charge commensurate to our clubs contribution and so far only got a flat no. The generous donor currently subsidising junior membership can't be expected to continue The future of our dying sport must be in attracting new members, preferably young ones, so the refusal of GFA and NSWGA to help is pretty dismal. The future of our sport is the responsibility of us all. How many writing emails are actually doing something really constructive? Certainly Paul Mander who wrote the following email but how many others, Harry Medlicott - Original Message - From: Paul Mander To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 8:37 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement There is a club near Sydney that has become so dependent on joy rides that they have 32 listed instructors but just 125-ish flying members, no cross country or competition curriculum. They run a full time operation yet cry poor. I may be overstating it, but not by much. Is this what you're talking about? What should be a worry for our sport is that they are the first point of contact with gliding for nearly ¼ the population of Australia. -- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of gavin wrigley Sent: Friday, 27 August 2010 7:46 AM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement I couldnt agree more, Ian. In addition to 'chivvying' those who have already evidenced some interest by taking a flight, lets get a bit more smart about those we pitch our market to. I have already revealed my disinterest in the treadmill of gift companies/grandpa's birthday/air experience flights. Fine, dont refuse them, but they wont create new members. Lets make it easy for other pilots to try (or re-try!) gliding. Include model aircraft enthusiasts, hang gliders, RAA and GA pilots. They have already revealed their susceptibility. And dont just plod through 'effects of controls', perhaps done by a relatively new instructorunless that instructor has initiative, enthusiasm, some soaring skills and the ability to demonstrate the 'Joy of Soaring'. Show what is possible after plodding through the 'effects of controls'...gliding IS different! For that matterwhat about schoolchildren? If anyone wants to know more about the highly successful 'Flying' course that is PART OF THE SCHOOL PROGRAMME for all of the year 10 students at a school on Darwin then I am happy to give details, and a professionally produced DVD is available. Quite a number of established/confirmed/advanced glider pilots have shown interest in the fact that such a programme exists, and has done for ten consecutive years now. But not one, to my knowledge, even though they expressed great approval for the idea, has tried to introduce anything similar in their locality. Its pissing with rain here in the UK. Thats my excuse for so many posts in such a short time! -- Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:26:50 +1000 From:
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
Like yourself and Paul and many others I know, I do something every week and every day to grow gliding and get more members. I happen to be a member of said Sydney Club and I talk with people actively and dont just "take their money". I know a whole bunch of people who do similar at my Club. Say what you like about NSW Gliding, but we are doing stuff now and will continue to improve that in the future. With more arms and legs we could probably do even more. Sometimes you have to pick your battles, you know that. The Sydney Club in question has more than ten scholarships in progress at present and would offer more. These kids get their flying for free (yep members pay for it) and the kids pay launches. We would take more if more were there. It is good to see Clubs doing stuff at grass roots levels, as I said previously. On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 2:13 PM, harry medlicott < hw.medlic...@optusnet.com.au> wrote: > Paul, > > You are right. It is rather sad that the gliding club close to the largest > city in Australia does not seem to convert many of its large number of its > AEFs to gliding. Do they hand out pamplets or preferably videos etc.? It > seems that many instructors get their flying free from the back seat of a DG > 1000 and tugpilots gets theirs launching but do they have a real interest in > converting AEFs to members?. > > Re air cadets. LKSC has done somehing to make gliding affordable for air > cadets. I have personally at no cost to the club built a winch powered by a > Chevy 454 ci motor using Dyneema rope which gives high safe launches. I > have also just bought a Winch launch Assistant which shows the speed of the > glider being launched on a display in the winch which will hopefully give > even higher, safer launches. We are subsidising juniors membership to $40 > which does not even cover the capitation fee associated with our lease, half > glider hire rates and membership by a generous donation of $100 pa per > cadet aged 15/18 yo. Total of club membership and GFA is $76, which, coupled > with a winch launch charge of $12 which gives a launch of 1,800/2'000 ft. We > hope it is an offer to good to refuse. There are 90 AAFC cadets in our area > and the hope is we will build up a cadre of young pilots . When AAFC cadets > come to our club to fly an AAFC sponsored flight they tell us that aerotow > etc. makes gliding unaffordable for them. Hopefully our initiatives will > change all that. > > What disturbs me is that LKSC has approached both GFA and NSWGA asking for > help to reduce the GFA membership charge commensurate to our clubs > contribution and so far only got a flat no. The generous donor currently > subsidising junior membership can't be expected to continue The future of > our dying sport must be in attracting new members, preferably young ones, so > the refusal of GFA and NSWGA to help is pretty dismal. > > The future of our sport is the responsibility of us all. How many writing > emails are actually doing something really constructive? Certainly Paul > Mander who wrote the following email but how many others, > > Harry Medlicott > > > > > > - Original Message - > > *From:* Paul Mander > *To:* 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in > Australia.' > *Sent:* Friday, August 27, 2010 8:37 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement > > There is a club near Sydney that has become so dependent on joy rides > that they have 32 listed instructors but just 125-ish flying members, no > cross country or competition curriculum. They run a full time operation yet > cry poor. I may be overstating it, but not by much. Is this what you’re > talking about? What should be a worry for our sport is that they are the > first point of contact with gliding for nearly ¼ the population of > Australia. > > > -- > > *From:* aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto: > aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] *On Behalf Of *gavin wrigley > *Sent:* Friday, 27 August 2010 7:46 AM > *To:* aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement > > > > I couldnt agree more, Ian. > > In addition to 'chivvying' those who have already evidenced some interest > by taking a flight, lets get a bit more smart about those we pitch our > market to. > I have already revealed my disinterest in the treadmill of gift > companies/grandpa's birthday/air experience flights. Fine, dont refuse them, > but they wont create new members. > Lets make it easy for other pilots to try (or re-try!) gliding. Include > model aircraft enthusiasts, hang gliders, RAA and GA pilots. They have > already revealed their susceptibility. > > And dont jus
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
At 07:46 AM 27/08/2010, you wrote: I couldnt agree more, Ian. In addition to 'chivvying' those who have already evidenced some interest by taking a flight, lets get a bit more smart about those we pitch our market to. I have already revealed my disinterest in the treadmill of gift companies/grandpa's birthday/air experience flights. Fine, dont refuse them, but they wont create new members. Lets make it easy for other pilots to try (or re-try!) gliding. Include model aircraft enthusiasts, hang gliders, RAA and GA pilots. They have already revealed their susceptibility. And dont just plod through 'effects of controls', perhaps done by a relatively new instructorunless that instructor has initiative, enthusiasm, some soaring skills and the ability to demonstrate the 'Joy of Soaring'. Show what is possible after plodding through the 'effects of controls'...gliding IS different! Which seems close to what I've been saying. Sell "soaring" not "flying". Soaring is a sport for pilots. There's the marketing slogan to pitch to other aviators. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
Hi Dave
Yes, you are a contributor and making a genuine effort to promote gliding. It
seems you might have had a favourable influence in your club. If we had more
like you am sure the gliding movement would be in a far more favourable
position. Spoke to some pilots from the Netherlands recently. About 30% of
their pilots are under 30 you and half of these are young women. In promoting
our sport we need to look at all possible sources of members and cater for
their needs. We have young people happy to push gliders around all day but can
only afford modest glider and launch costs, the time poor but affluent who want
to have their lesson or flight and then leave the field and the empty nesters,
their children have left home, the mortgage is paid off and they are looking
for a new challenge.
Just at the moment am concentrating my efforts on making gliding affordable for
AAFC cadets. The lack of support from GFA makes me wonder if it is worth the
effort.Our clubs new manager, Ian Downes is also making an effort to attract
official local high school support,
Harry Medlicott
- Original Message -
From: Dave Boulter
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
Like yourself and Paul and many others I know, I do something every week and
every day to grow gliding and get more members. I happen to be a member of said
Sydney Club and I talk with people actively and dont just "take their money". I
know a whole bunch of people who do similar at my Club.
Say what you like about NSW Gliding, but we are doing stuff now and will
continue to improve that in the future. With more arms and legs we could
probably do even more. Sometimes you have to pick your battles, you know that.
The Sydney Club in question has more than ten scholarships in progress at
present and would offer more. These kids get their flying for free (yep members
pay for it) and the kids pay launches. We would take more if more were there.
It is good to see Clubs doing stuff at grass roots levels, as I said
previously.
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 2:13 PM, harry medlicott
wrote:
Paul,
You are right. It is rather sad that the gliding club close to the largest
city in Australia does not seem to convert many of its large number of its AEFs
to gliding. Do they hand out pamplets or preferably videos etc.? It seems that
many instructors get their flying free from the back seat of a DG 1000 and
tugpilots gets theirs launching but do they have a real interest in converting
AEFs to members?.
Re air cadets. LKSC has done somehing to make gliding affordable for air
cadets. I have personally at no cost to the club built a winch powered by a
Chevy 454 ci motor using Dyneema rope which gives high safe launches. I have
also just bought a Winch launch Assistant which shows the speed of the glider
being launched on a display in the winch which will hopefully give even higher,
safer launches. We are subsidising juniors membership to $40 which does not
even cover the capitation fee associated with our lease, half glider hire rates
and membership by a generous donation of $100 pa per cadet aged 15/18 yo.
Total of club membership and GFA is $76, which, coupled with a winch launch
charge of $12 which gives a launch of 1,800/2'000 ft. We hope it is an offer to
good to refuse. There are 90 AAFC cadets in our area and the hope is we will
build up a cadre of young pilots . When AAFC cadets come to our club to fly an
AAFC sponsored flight they tell us that aerotow etc. makes gliding unaffordable
for them. Hopefully our initiatives will change all that.
What disturbs me is that LKSC has approached both GFA and NSWGA asking for
help to reduce the GFA membership charge commensurate to our clubs contribution
and so far only got a flat no. The generous donor currently subsidising junior
membership can't be expected to continue The future of our dying sport must be
in attracting new members, preferably young ones, so the refusal of GFA and
NSWGA to help is pretty dismal.
The future of our sport is the responsibility of us all. How many writing
emails are actually doing something really constructive? Certainly Paul Mander
who wrote the following email but how many others,
Harry Medlicott
- Original Message -
From: Paul Mander
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
There is a club near Sydney that has become so dependent on joy rides
that they have 32 listed instructors but just 125-ish flying members, no cross
country or competition curriculum. They run a full time operation yet cry poor.
I may be overstating it, but not by much. Is this what you’re talking about?
What should be a wo
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
Parents of school children have very little discretionary spending power. unless you are, unlike me, rub shoulders with the rich and famous. On the other hand, youngish retirees have the money and are looking for interesting activities. Rotary Clubs, Probus, Lions Clubs must be a fertile ground for new pilots. Having said this, to get them hooked on, we must devise a way that will give them enjoyment from the start. Going up and down is boring even if the adrenalin is flowing with abundance. After the second or third flight, take the student on a short cross country flight. 20-30 k from the airfield will illustrate what gliding is all about and will give the student more opportunity to master the controls. How many time have we talked about this and agreed that the Kookaburra was unsuitable for such adventures. I cant disagree with this but, hello, we did progress since those days. Ciao PC _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Paul Mander Sent: Friday, 27 August 2010 8:37 AM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement There is a club near Sydney that has become so dependent on joy rides that they have 32 listed instructors but just 125-ish flying members, no cross country or competition curriculum. They run a full time operation yet cry poor. I may be overstating it, but not by much. Is this what youre talking about? What should be a worry for our sport is that they are the first point of contact with gliding for nearly ¼ the population of Australia. _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of gavin wrigley Sent: Friday, 27 August 2010 7:46 AM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement I couldnt agree more, Ian. In addition to 'chivvying' those who have already evidenced some interest by taking a flight, lets get a bit more smart about those we pitch our market to. I have already revealed my disinterest in the treadmill of gift companies/grandpa's birthday/air experience flights. Fine, dont refuse them, but they wont create new members. Lets make it easy for other pilots to try (or re-try!) gliding. Include model aircraft enthusiasts, hang gliders, RAA and GA pilots. They have already revealed their susceptibility. And dont just plod through 'effects of controls', perhaps done by a relatively new instructorunless that instructor has initiative, enthusiasm, some soaring skills and the ability to demonstrate the 'Joy of Soaring'. Show what is possible after plodding through the 'effects of controls'...gliding IS different! For that matterwhat about schoolchildren? If anyone wants to know more about the highly successful 'Flying' course that is PART OF THE SCHOOL PROGRAMME for all of the year 10 students at a school on Darwin then I am happy to give details, and a professionally produced DVD is available. Quite a number of established/confirmed/advanced glider pilots have shown interest in the fact that such a programme exists, and has done for ten consecutive years now. But not one, to my knowledge, even though they expressed great approval for the idea, has tried to introduce anything similar in their locality. Its pissing with rain here in the UK. Thats my excuse for so many posts in such a short time! _ Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:26:50 +1000 From: mrsoar...@gmail.com To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement Gary+ others, Meant to say think we (GFA and CLUBS) need to convert try and convert as many as possible 3 month into 12 months memberships. Thus I think 3 month members should get a letter one month out explaining their options for the future and I would do a McDonnalds "we have a special for you upgrade your 3months to 12 months by paying $xxx (about $150 or whatever) but you must do it by expiry date of say Oct30" One week before they get email reminder and on the day send a SMS to UPGRADE TODAY. These days I insure with Bingle (online version of AAMI at 2/3 the price) and at 12noon of exp day I get an SMS and go on line and it is paid. It works for AAMI. So my thoughts are McDonnalds upgrade, or do you want to buy this weeks special at Supercheap or top up your phone credit before a certain date to keep your credit. Even Woollies fuel is spend $5 on 2 milk and get another 4c/lit off so milk costs $1 a litre Importantly lets all do something rather than sit on our hands till the last person has to turn out the lights Any other ideas out there? Ian McPhee ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: htt
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
We did indeed give a short cross country during ab initio training at Booker, UK, many years ago. For all I know, they may still do so. I dont know if you can say for sure what effect it had, but when I was there we had a very strong gliding movement with lots of young pilots, and the top Junior Nationals pilots placed high in the main Nationals as well. I remember 30 years ago discussing the need to focus on developing and encouraging the young pilots. I remember one particular pupil, money to spare, having a go at various different sports, who half way through the week declared he was getting bored, so every now and then we did an aerobatic flight to liven things up. He went solo, declared he had done that, and was off to try the next sport. Pam Kurstjens From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of P Carey Sent: Friday, 27 August 2010 5:58 PM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement Parents of school children have very little discretionary spending power. unless you are, unlike me, rub shoulders with the rich and famous. On the other hand, youngish retirees have the money and are looking for interesting activities. Rotary Clubs, Probus, Lions Clubs must be a fertile ground for new pilots. Having said this, to get them hooked on, we must devise a way that will give them enjoyment from the start. Going up and down is boring even if the adrenalin is flowing with abundance. After the second or third flight, take the student on a short cross country flight. 20-30 k from the airfield will illustrate what gliding is all about and will give the student more opportunity to master the controls. How many time have we talked about this and agreed that the Kookaburra was unsuitable for such adventures. I cant disagree with this but, hello, we did progress since those days. Ciao PC _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Paul Mander Sent: Friday, 27 August 2010 8:37 AM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement There is a club near Sydney that has become so dependent on joy rides that they have 32 listed instructors but just 125-ish flying members, no cross country or competition curriculum. They run a full time operation yet cry poor. I may be overstating it, but not by much. Is this what youre talking about? What should be a worry for our sport is that they are the first point of contact with gliding for nearly ¼ the population of Australia. _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of gavin wrigley Sent: Friday, 27 August 2010 7:46 AM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement I couldnt agree more, Ian. In addition to 'chivvying' those who have already evidenced some interest by taking a flight, lets get a bit more smart about those we pitch our market to. I have already revealed my disinterest in the treadmill of gift companies/grandpa's birthday/air experience flights. Fine, dont refuse them, but they wont create new members. Lets make it easy for other pilots to try (or re-try!) gliding. Include model aircraft enthusiasts, hang gliders, RAA and GA pilots. They have already revealed their susceptibility. And dont just plod through 'effects of controls', perhaps done by a relatively new instructorunless that instructor has initiative, enthusiasm, some soaring skills and the ability to demonstrate the 'Joy of Soaring'. Show what is possible after plodding through the 'effects of controls'...gliding IS different! For that matterwhat about schoolchildren? If anyone wants to know more about the highly successful 'Flying' course that is PART OF THE SCHOOL PROGRAMME for all of the year 10 students at a school on Darwin then I am happy to give details, and a professionally produced DVD is available. Quite a number of established/confirmed/advanced glider pilots have shown interest in the fact that such a programme exists, and has done for ten consecutive years now. But not one, to my knowledge, even though they expressed great approval for the idea, has tried to introduce anything similar in their locality. Its pissing with rain here in the UK. Thats my excuse for so many posts in such a short time! _ Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:26:50 +1000 From: mrsoar...@gmail.com To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement Gary+ others, Meant to say think we (GFA and CLUBS) need to convert try and convert as many as possible 3 month into 12 months memberships. Thus I think 3 month members should get a letter one month out explaining thei
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
Hi, We should also remember those parents who give gliding a go when there child does shows interests. My club has several long term members who started that way. The other thing to remember that these young pilots not many stay long (i.e. 2+ years) but there is good chance they will come back someday. I also know a few who started in the UK with the cadets many years ago and have come back to gliding later in life. regards, Arie On 27/08/2010 5:49 PM, harry medlicott wrote: Hi Dave Yes, you are a contributor and making a genuine effort to promote gliding. It seems you might have had a favourable influence in your club. If we had more like you am sure the gliding movement would be in a far more favourable position. Spoke to some pilots from the Netherlands recently. About 30% of their pilots are under 30 you and half of these are young women. In promoting our sport we need to look at all possible sources of members and cater for their needs. We have young people happy to push gliders around all day but can only afford modest glider and launch costs, the time poor but affluent who want to have their lesson or flight and then leave the field and the empty nesters, their children have left home, the mortgage is paid off and they are looking for a new challenge. Just at the moment am concentrating my efforts on making gliding affordable for AAFC cadets. The lack of support from GFA makes me wonder if it is worth the effort.Our clubs new manager, Ian Downes is also making an effort to attract official local high school support, Harry Medlicott - Original Message - *From:* Dave Boulter <mailto:daveboul...@internode.on.net> *To:* Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. <mailto:aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net> *Sent:* Friday, August 27, 2010 2:26 PM *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement Like yourself and Paul and many others I know, I do something every week and every day to grow gliding and get more members. I happen to be a member of said Sydney Club and I talk with people actively and dont just "take their money". I know a whole bunch of people who do similar at my Club. Say what you like about NSW Gliding, but we are doing stuff now and will continue to improve that in the future. With more arms and legs we could probably do even more. Sometimes you have to pick your battles, you know that. The Sydney Club in question has more than ten scholarships in progress at present and would offer more. These kids get their flying for free (yep members pay for it) and the kids pay launches. We would take more if more were there. It is good to see Clubs doing stuff at grass roots levels, as I said previously. On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 2:13 PM, harry medlicott mailto:hw.medlic...@optusnet.com.au>> wrote: Paul, You are right. It is rather sad that the gliding club close to the largest city in Australia does not seem to convert many of its large number of its AEFs to gliding. Do they hand out pamplets or preferably videos etc.? It seems that many instructors get their flying free from the back seat of a DG 1000 and tugpilots gets theirs launching but do they have a real interest in converting AEFs to members?. Re air cadets. LKSC has done somehing to make gliding affordable for air cadets. I have personally at no cost to the club built a winch powered by a Chevy 454 ci motor using Dyneema rope which gives high safe launches. I have also just bought a Winch launch Assistant which shows the speed of the glider being launched on a display in the winch which will hopefully give even higher, safer launches. We are subsidising juniors membership to $40 which does not even cover the capitation fee associated with our lease, half glider hire rates and membership by a generous donation of $100 pa per cadet aged 15/18 yo. Total of club membership and GFA is $76, which, coupled with a winch launch charge of $12 which gives a launch of 1,800/2'000 ft. We hope it is an offer to good to refuse. There are 90 AAFC cadets in our area and the hope is we will build up a cadre of young pilots . When AAFC cadets come to our club to fly an AAFC sponsored flight they tell us that aerotow etc. makes gliding unaffordable for them. Hopefully our initiatives will change all that. What disturbs me is that LKSC has approached both GFA and NSWGA asking for help to reduce the GFA membership charge commensurate to our clubs contribution and so far only got a flat no. The generous donor currently subsidising junior membership can't be expected to continue The future of our dying sport must be
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
You probably have hit the nail on the head, all without mention of OFITTH's I believe there are parallels with snow sports: Skiing is a dying sport - there are too many barriers in the way of becoming a good skier, as it needs a lot of time and money invested in lessons. Not many people are prepared to do that, and it shows. That's why snowboarding is growing: no need for a lesson, just hire a board and get a mate to show you the basics, and you can be hooning out of control down the slope with your mates in no time at all. -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of DMcD Sent: Friday, 27 August 2010 10:49 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] *SPAM* RE: Death of a Movement >>There is nothing in our system that provides them with a structured path for development beyond the circuit. No cross country, no competitions. There is nothing to engage the interest of the able individual looking for intellectual and physical challenge, looking to develop their skills, looking to have fun. Predictably these people, who represent the priceless potential for the future, go elsewhere. This seems to be a bit of a blinkered discussion. Guess it would not be the Aus-soaring group without that. If you are a young person wanting to go gliding rather than power flying, you have three choices. PG, HG and sailplanes. HG is in a similar position to sailplanes. static or falling membership. PG is growing well. Why is that? Why not think of reasons why, apart from the fact that there are a lot of other young people flying paragliders, that kids would prefer to do this version of gliding rather than fly sailplanes? It's not the money. it's probably cheaper to train to fly sailplanes than it is to fly HG or PG. Perhaps it is precisely because the approach is casual and unstructured (just like most young people,) that it appeals to young people. Perhaps, if you are at school or have just left, the idea of another seemingly endless session of learning would be a big turn-off. The GPC is well-meaning but it simply extends what is already a very long period of training compared with the few minutes you might spend pre-solo in a paraglider or a hang glider. There's no real concept of "independent operator" in these alternative versions of gliding. Nothing that says that when you go solo, you can't decide where and when you fly and where you land. No daily check flights when you turn up at the club. No annual flight review with it's dubious safety checks. And once you have gone solo and got the relevant rating, you can fly anywhere in the world. >>Show what is possible after plodding through the 'effects of controls'...gliding IS different! In fact, you can demonstrate this quite easily to an HG or PG pilot on a good day. The performance and general ease of flying a sailplane and the ease of going cross country is a big selling point to anyone who has already flown another type of glider, but to do this you need to do more than a 30 minute local soaring flight at some outer suburban site. I don't think for a moment that gliding is dead. There are just more forms of it now and more choices. What can we do to make our version more attractive than the others? And more attractive to young fliers? D ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3096 - Release Date: 08/27/10 04:34:00 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
On 27/08/2010, at 8:10 PM, Mal Bruce wrote: Gliding Died a long time ago RIP and Ian McPhee wrote: I am too old for all this - gone are the days of me doing 80+ aerotows. a day! I just wish others would help the cause. I sat in a Development Seminar organised by Ann Philcox (thank you) at which Maurice Little exhorted the existing glider pilots to man the barricades, with much of the advocacy on this thread. Looking around the room, the audience was several dozen, primarily long term glider pilots, each individual there having already done all this at least once, not just the personal time, or the money subsidy, or the cross country intros, or even taking on the ever expanding list of jobs the sport 'requires' (member protection, development, finance, admin, ops, airw, sport, police checks, mandatory grounding of the fleet, and on and on) And the look I saw on the faces was - if we keep doing the same thing, we get the same outcome. Lots of resources invested, with clubs shrinking and unable to re-equip themselves The sport's condition I suspect is not the external interest or approach; it gives the impression of the throttling of initiative and tying ourselves up in knots comes from within the sport's own structure. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
I strongly disagree. The movement didn't die it is just the fun part is being kept as a secret. Why don't we try to put together a DVD that will show, instead of the boring clips with the even more boring comments, the fun part of it, the people that could gain new excitement in their life. We could all get a copy and show it to our family, our friends, our associates, our social or business clubs, our unsuspecting customers, the sales man who calls on us. Take it down to the police station, the fire station, the doctor's surgery. If half of the membership show it to 10 people each, this is 14,000 viewers. .but first we need to produce the disc that people want to see twice, at least. PC -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mal Bruce Sent: Friday, 27 August 2010 8:41 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement Been lurking for to long. Gliding Died a long time ago RIP I used to spend $5000.00 to $2.00 a year on mostly gliding and a bit of fixed wing. Thanks Dave my honesty has set me free, hire and fire at your Camden gliding business! The people who introduced me to gliding at Camden in 1981 helped me get scholarship when a 2000 ft launch was $8.00 and 3000 ft $10.00 I mowed lawns to raise the monies to fly I was 14 years old. There was more than ten of us on Scholarships in 1982 The skill I learnt that helped me get my inaugural win in 2005 started Go ahead pick your battles the only way you can win is on the ground running your so called gliding business. Gliding is a Sport not a place for politics, I was taught to be safe and promote being safe, commercial operators run gliding as a business Clubs support and nurture the skill set a develop winners. How many winners work for you? Off camping and shooting and skiing :) ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
It is great to see members taking this subject seriously and there have been a lot of good comments and recommendations made; now how do we migrate from good ideas to an Action Plan? The National and State associations have people nominated to help promote the sport but I am disappointed to say that in our neck of the woods, apart from providing funds for some signs on the Highway that runs past our front gate there has very little assistance provided, and while our new signs look great and everyone in the area and beyond knows where we are they do not bring people through the front gate. I see three major areas that need improvement; the first one is the old chestnut of membership retention, if we spent an equal about of time and effort retaining established members who are drifting it may be a better investment, I call it the "Leaking Bucket Membership Model" stop the leaks before starting to fill it again; I know it's not quite that simple when dealing with people but hopefully you get my drift. My second area of concern is the motivation of some of the Instructors in our clubs, from my seat in the Tug the only time I see some members fly is when they are instructing, and while this is an important role it also suggests to me that these instructors are not taking part in other aspects of the sport and maybe do not understand the sporting elements of our sport; how can they be enthusiastic and promote something they do not understand? Tug Pilots - several years ago I predicted that the sport would have a serious problem manning Tug Rosters in 15 years time, that time has arrived much earlier that I predicted. It is not that there is a shortage of members willing to be training, it is the availability of the training. This is a National Problem and requires a National approach. I also know that the proponents of Winch Launching will jump upon this comment to promote the benefits of Winch Launching, and in part that may be an answer for some clubs; but if Winch Launching is the most effective way to launch surly every competition director in the country using winches in favour of Tugs. If we do not fix some of these problems very quickly those who man our club rosters will become burnt out, in fact we are already seeing it; we must keep the sport fun for everyone not just the Newbees. SDF ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
On 29/08/10 09:39, Stuart & Kerri FERGUSON wrote: My second area of concern is the motivation of some of the Instructors in our clubs, from my seat in the Tug the only time I see some members fly is when they are instructing, and while this is an important role it also suggests to me that these instructors are not taking part in other aspects of the sport and maybe do not understand the sporting elements of our sport; how can they be enthusiastic and promote something they do not understand? I quite agree - having instructors who are at least active XC (and perhaps comp) pilots is important to nurturing people through to early XC flying. -- Robert Hart ha...@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
They are called "coaches". Cheers Tim se sono rose, fioriranno From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Robert Hart Sent: Sunday, 29 August 2010 15:18 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement On 29/08/10 09:39, Stuart & Kerri FERGUSON wrote: My second area of concern is the motivation of some of the Instructors in our clubs, from my seat in the Tug the only time I see some members fly is when they are instructing, and while this is an important role it also suggests to me that these instructors are not taking part in other aspects of the sport and maybe do not understand the sporting elements of our sport; how can they be enthusiastic and promote something they do not understand? I quite agree - having instructors who are at least active XC (and perhaps comp) pilots is important to nurturing people through to early XC flying. -- Robert Hart ha...@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3096 - Release Date: 08/28/10 16:34:00 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
On 29/08/10 15:46, Tim Shirley wrote: They are called “coaches”. Not necessarily - we all the instructors at out club are regular XC pilots - but not all of these have their coaching qualification as well. We also have coaches on our training panel who are not instructors a- and don't want to be. -- Robert Hart ha...@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement
Gdday Grant. Got a bit more time If you write/email The Essington School in Darwin and contact David Cannon, the principal, he will no doubt send on a copy of the DVD made recently about the school 'Flying' programme. We have operated it for ten years now. Reg Moore, from SA, has been involved and has a copy as well. The school commissioned the DVD production, it is primarily from an educational value/school promotion point of view, but will explain a lot. Most of all, it shows how powerful the experience is for the participants. It was also written up in an Australian Soaring magazine in 2008 (or 2009). The ABC in Darwin produced a 'Stateline' story on it a few years ago. The programme requires some innovation (courage?) on the part of the school, and is perhaps more likely to be adopted by a private school simply due to their relative autonomy. Everyone enquires about the cost. Parents contribute $150, the rest is met by the school. Basically the year 10's get some in-school theory and preparation. They have four flying lessons each, of @35 mins each. An 'advanced' group is selected and invited to do more. The DVD shows the use of aerotow on one of the years. Not cost effective! A motor Falke (or similar) is the best option. Winching could also be cost-effective given sufficient volunteer expertise, and useful weather. The students are always positive about the experience, and so is the school, parental community and staff. It is a great pity that the Club in Darwin is effectively defunct. There are a few very experienced instructors there...but guess what...they fly Ultralights! Thats another story. I have no doubt that a substantial number of students would have joined the club had there been an active one. I am sure that (possibly like the cadets) several will take up the opportunity to fly later on, when circumstances allow. Unlike the cadets, this catchment covers ALL of the students, including many for whom the thought that they may/could learn to fly never entered their mind. We had two 'full blood' Aboriginal students on the last course, and their community/school wants to do some more whenever I can arrange it. More specific details can be afforded to those who may want to enquire directly. I have cc'd this to the general soaring list in case any others are interested. Gavin Wrigley From: gr...@davies.id.au To: gavi...@hotmail.com Subject: FW: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 12:40:54 +1000 Hi Gavin, I am from the Bundaberg Gliding Club and was interested in your post to the Aus-Soaring List. I am very interested in your comments about a Flying course for schools and DVD. Together with one of our younger members we have been discussing doing something like this for our schools. If you can forward me more details that would be wonderful. If we don’t have to reinvent the wheel that would be great. Kindest Regards Grant Davies m. 0419 818 315 f. 07 41 54 14 36 e. gr...@davies.id.au From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of gavin wrigley Sent: Friday, 27 August 2010 07:46 AM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement I couldnt agree more, Ian. In addition to 'chivvying' those who have already evidenced some interest by taking a flight, lets get a bit more smart about those we pitch our market to. I have already revealed my disinterest in the treadmill of gift companies/grandpa's birthday/air experience flights. Fine, dont refuse them, but they wont create new members. Lets make it easy for other pilots to try (or re-try!) gliding. Include model aircraft enthusiasts, hang gliders, RAA and GA pilots. They have already revealed their susceptibility. And dont just plod through 'effects of controls', perhaps done by a relatively new instructorunless that instructor has initiative, enthusiasm, some soaring skills and the ability to demonstrate the 'Joy of Soaring'. Show what is possible after plodding through the 'effects of controls'...gliding IS different! For that matterwhat about schoolchildren? If anyone wants to know more about the highly successful 'Flying' course that is PART OF THE SCHOOL PROGRAMME for all of the year 10 students at a school on Darwin then I am happy to give details, and a professionally produced DVD is available. Quite a number of established/confirmed/advanced glider pilots have shown interest in the fact that such a programme exists, and has done for ten consecutive years now. But not one, to my knowledge, even though they expressed great approval for the idea, has tried to introduce anything similar in their locality. Its pissing with rain here in the UK. Thats my excuse for so many posts in s
[Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport
Paul has said it all, and Mike B has made similar comments. We need to switch people on to the sport of gliding. Not the grind of doing circuits and going solo, but all the challenges that are available from unpowered soaring flight. Cross-country, wave soaring, competitions, badges, records. The fun stuff. We are not a low-cost flying training organisation at least, we are not today. Gliding is a SPORT and should be marketed as such. If we want to give scholarships, we should be looking at the incentive to continue, not just the incentive to start. For example, by paying for early X/C pilots to go to coaching camps or to their first competitions. Thats what will hook them. Whereas a few free training flights wont help, because the money runs out before the fun starts. Being a sport means that the customers we target will be different, and should include other flying disciplines, especially those where there is limited sporting challenge. Long term participation in our sport needs people to have resources, including time and money as well as dedication, enthusiasm and commitment. When I take a TIF I spend most of the time talking about the possibilities. I chat about the competitions, the long flights people do, the fun of wave flying. Anything to turn them on to the challenge, and away from the impossible question how much does it cost to learn?. Yes, we have people who only want to soar gracefully above the airfield for a couple of hours. Yes, we have people who want to restore and fly vintage sailplanes. Yes, we need instructors to train newcomers. And all of that is terrific. But its not the right marketing pitch which should be, that this sport is seriously challenging, physically and mentally demanding, and above all, heaps of FUN! Cheers Tim se sono rose, fioriranno From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Paul Mander Sent: Friday, 27 August 2010 20:37 To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: [Aus-soaring] *SPAM* RE: Death of a Movement Several people are working very hard on the problem, but collectively we are missing the point. Which is, that there is a plentiful amount of interest in gliding, yet we manage not to capitalize on it. My strong belief is that the real issue is that all these young and not so young people who come to gliding, do their ab initios and go solo, then qualify for various single seaters for local soaring, then have nowhere to go. There is nothing in our system that provides them with a structured path for development beyond the circuit. No cross country, no competitions. There is nothing to engage the interest of the able individual looking for intellectual and physical challenge, looking to develop their skills, looking to have fun. Predictably these people, who represent the priceless potential for the future, go elsewhere. The GPC is intended to address this, but so far in my experience it has not been welcomed with open arms. Everyone seems to focus on grabbing the interest of yet more newcomers. Not much point on focusing on the cadets for instance, if you dont have a plan for what to give them, beyond going solo. How about doing more with those who are already interested? An important principle in business is that it is several times more costly to recruit new customers than to keep existing ones. It pays to gain an understanding of what the customers really want, and then provide it. Id say that this principle is being overlooked in gliding, particularly in our state of NSW. _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Dave Boulter Sent: Friday, 27 August 2010 2:27 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement Like yourself and Paul and many others I know, I do something every week and every day to grow gliding and get more members. I happen to be a member of said Sydney Club and I talk with people actively and dont just "take their money". I know a whole bunch of people who do similar at my Club. Say what you like about NSW Gliding, but we are doing stuff now and will continue to improve that in the future. With more arms and legs we could probably do even more. Sometimes you have to pick your battles, you know that. The Sydney Club in question has more than ten scholarships in progress at present and would offer more. These kids get their flying for free (yep members pay for it) and the kids pay launches. We would take more if more were there. It is good to see Clubs doing stuff at grass roots levels, as I said previously. On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 2:13 PM, harry medlicott wrote: Paul, You are right. It is rather sad that the gliding club close to the largest city in Australia does not seem to convert many
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement / Reinvigoration of a movement
Hi all, Very interested in the discussion on development of gliding to avoid the death threat in the subject. I changed it to be more positive, 'reinvigoration of a movement' like that Ian? We host a local towns cadets (Marlborough) once a year. 24 or so cadets over two days. We are working on our home town (Bundaberg) at present. They have more like 50 cadets. They get cheap insurance through their organisation 2 Wing I think it is. We also do them a pretty good deal on flights, $45 or $50 and they organise their own insurance. We have managed to keep a couple of the cadets as members from doing this. >From my understanding they have a cub or organisation and have a few gliders down at Warrick, Queensland. We have also just had an open day where we had Nigel Arnot come and do some aerobatic displays. Weekend went down well and we did pick up a few members from it. It also raised the awareness of the clubs existence. We would like to do this at least once if not twice a year. Just to add we have had interest from RC Modellers, the guys that fly the RC gliders. We are also keen on and have talking about doing something with schools. I did see a post earlier about a DVD and schools programme. Would be keen on any info that others have on this. Kindest Regards Grant Davies m. 0419 818 315 f. 07 41 54 14 36 e. gr...@davies.id.au From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Nelson Handcock Sent: Friday, 27 August 2010 12:36 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a Movement What opportunity might there be to join forces with Air Force Cadets? They are a group of kids who have obviously shown a ganuine interest in aviation as a career. I believe they do get some flying exposure during their training, but I get the impression they are limited to what the RAAF can afford to sponsor (which right now would be very little - same as the general Army Reserves, etc) I'd be surprised if it hasn't been tried before - so what experiences have people had with the RAAF Air Cadets? -- Nelson Handcock 0409 149919 http://www.linkedin.com/in/nelsonhandcockaustralia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport
Lets look at the people we are trying to engage. The 15-18 year old is keen, quick to learn but money short. Mum and Dad pay, if they have the money. NOw, 15-18 year olds don't like hanging out with old farts that continually grumble and telling them what to do, how what they are doing does not fit with MOSP part x, subsection blah blah., it's dull! No matter how good the flying part is. They have to sit around the field, listening to said old farts grumle, tell them how to do things, how lazy and self obsessed gen Y is etc etc. After a few weeks of this, they go kite surfing, infinitely cheaper, lots of young people doing seemingly slightly dangerous stuff, and lots of hands on time. There might be young hot girls there too! Paragliding is similar. The junior movement has a way round this, young people hang out with young people, talk facebook, twitter etc etc and some of the older youngsters guide them, along the lines of mosp part x, section blah blah. Then there is a little competition between youngsters and hey presto, the learning curve gets steeper but way more fun. all of a sudden, they are hooked, doing well in comps and add to the enjoyment for the others. The europeans, not having the problems of distance and low population should be laughing and they are doing well at getting youngsters in but the attrition at the other end is greater. The increased costs of EASA will put the final nail in the coffin over there for sure. The nxet group..mid to late 20's are concentrating on carrer, trying to save to get a mortgage (silly isnt it) in the most expensive place in the world to own a home. Then they get married, have kids and thats it! This is not a good group to attract. Society also tells this age group that they must own a modern house on the water, own a new 4WD (in black for some reason) and go to starbucks on sunday morning, bunnings in the afternoon (to spend yet more money on the most expensive house in the world). The next group..late 40's to late 50's are a good group but are being nagged to spend more time with the grown up kids (kids dont care) whilst the boss (they may be the boss) is expecting them to work weekends if they want to keep their job at the top. They carry on doing as such in the hope that they can retire early and have more time for things like gliding. Finaly, the retirees, this is the group which is our best group to attract, money rich, time rich (but the wife wants to spend it all on overseas holidays) but it takes them longer to learn gliding, they get frustrated at the lack of progress, and give up. thats how I see it. I think online training during the week on Condor is something that could shorten the learing curve. BUt there is no MOSP part x subsection blah blah! We must have that! Jim From: tshir...@internode.on.net To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:09:49 +1000 Subject: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport Paul has said it all, and Mike B has made similar comments. We need to switch people on to the sport of gliding. Not the grind of doing circuits and going solo, but all the challenges that are available from unpowered soaring flight. Cross-country, wave soaring, competitions, badges, records. The fun stuff. We are not a low-cost flying training organisation – at least, we are not today. Gliding is a SPORT and should be marketed as such. If we want to give scholarships, we should be looking at the incentive to continue, not just the incentive to start. For example, by paying for early X/C pilots to go to coaching camps or to their first competitions. That’s what will hook them. Whereas a few free training flights won’t help, because the money runs out before the fun starts. Being a sport means that the customers we target will be different, and should include other flying disciplines, especially those where there is limited sporting challenge. Long term participation in our sport needs people to have resources, including time and money as well as dedication, enthusiasm and commitment. When I take a TIF I spend most of the time talking about the possibilities. I chat about the competitions, the long flights people do, the fun of wave flying. Anything to turn them on to the challenge, and away from the impossible question “how much does it cost to learn?”. Yes, we have people who only want to soar gracefully above the airfield for a couple of hours. Yes, we have people who want to restore and fly vintage sailplanes. Yes, we need instructors to train newcomers. And all of that is terrific. But it’s not the right marketing pitch – which should be, that this sport is seriously challenging, physically and mentally demanding, and above all, heaps of FUN! Cheers Tim se sono rose, fioriranno From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport
Hi All, Interesting discussion, especially since I am one of those new members who is deciding whether or not to continue with gliding. Caveat: My (lack of) experience and my personal situation may, or may not, be representative of others making similar decisions. I started gliding last year at age 42. I now have 21 hours solo time (10 flights), and have been fortunate to complete flights that meet all Silver C requirements. So far it has been lot of fun, and resulted in a great sense of achievement. From what I understand, I also approached learning to fly gliders a little differently than most. (The journey so far is partly documented at http://www.hallam.id.au/journal/2009/11/3/learning-to-fly-gliders.html.) I still have a *lot* to learn. I now need to decide whether to invest the time and money in that learning. That means thinking about what the future looks like if I do continue with gliding, and making a call on the opportunity costs. While the idea of flying in competitions is enticing I'm unlikely to be a serious or regular competition pilot due to my age, the limited number of hours I can fly each year, and the cost of a reasonable glider. Therefore, thinking of soaring as a sport might not be realistic, for me. The most likely path, for me, seems to be treating soaring as more of a hobby. Flying when I can, setting my own tasks, and maybe posting a few flights on OLC. Competition flying is likely to be an occasional bonus rather than a regular thing. I am wondering if that is going to be enough to keep me interested. If I do continue, some of the things I'd like to experience while finishing my Glider Pilot Certificate are: - More cross country soaring. Learning by doing via coaching in a dual seater or pair flying with an experienced pilot. - Graduating to a higher performance single seater (doesn't have to be the latest and greatest, just good enough to maximise my enjoyment at my skill level). - Flying in a competition as a passenger in a dual seater. - More training on all aspects of safety. - More learning about soaring weather. Longer term: - Some form of competition/challenge that encourages low hours pilots to improve their skills (safely).* - Organised flying with pilots of similar experience. *Formal badge claims don't really interest me at this point, unless they are needed to convey my level of experience to others. As others have said, to the newcomer there appears to be a large nebulous gap between solo and elite competition. Working out what your realistic options are, and therefore what you can get out of soaring, can be difficult. If you don't understand what you can achieve, it is more difficult to commit the time and money to find out. Feedback is welcome. Andrew On 27/08/2010, at 11:09 PM, Tim Shirley wrote: > Paul has said it all, and Mike B has made similar comments. We need to > switch people on to the sport of gliding. Not the grind of doing circuits > and going solo, but all the challenges that are available from unpowered > soaring flight. Cross-country, wave soaring, competitions, badges, records. > The fun stuff. > > We are not a low-cost flying training organisation – at least, we are not > today. Gliding is a SPORT and should be marketed as such. If we want to > give scholarships, we should be looking at the incentive to continue, not > just the incentive to start. For example, by paying for early X/C pilots to > go to coaching camps or to their first competitions. That’s what will hook > them. Whereas a few free training flights won’t help, because the money runs > out before the fun starts. > > Being a sport means that the customers we target will be different, and > should include other flying disciplines, especially those where there is > limited sporting challenge. Long term participation in our sport needs > people to have resources, including time and money as well as dedication, > enthusiasm and commitment. > > When I take a TIF I spend most of the time talking about the possibilities. > I chat about the competitions, the long flights people do, the fun of wave > flying. Anything to turn them on to the challenge, and away from the > impossible question “how much does it cost to learn?”. > > Yes, we have people who only want to soar gracefully above the airfield for a > couple of hours. Yes, we have people who want to restore and fly vintage > sailplanes. Yes, we need instructors to train newcomers. And all of that is > terrific. But it’s not the right marketing pitch – which should be, that > this sport is seriously challenging, physically and mentally demanding, and > above all, heaps of FUN! > > Cheers > > Tim > > se sono rose, fioriranno ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport
Hello Andrew, You've done the hard part already, some of the fun apparently too and there is a lot more out there. Wether you want to fly comps or not is entirely up to you and I won't try to pesuade you either way. The reasons however why you possibly don't want to or can't are not valid. I flew my first regional comp (Horsham week) at age 45. The average age at the nationals is (sadly) probably closer to 50. One week flying at a state comp or similar level will give you more experience than one year gliding in almost any club. Don't know what gliders your club operates but if you can take one of them for a week there is absolutely no need for an own glider. Most private owners have one mostly because they can and want to have their toy available for more than just one week and the odd weekend. You'll be surprised how many have their own and hardly fly them. If you have fullfilled the Siver C conditions, post every flight to the OLC. It's fun to see what others in the same area and also elsewhere made out of the day. Again, I don't know how you are wired but I just love the competetive comparison. Not knowing where you fly makes it difficult to point you to coaching events but in Victoria there are 5 planned for this Year. Raywood (Bendigo) for all experiences over the Melbourne cup weekend, Benella over X-mas / New Year for beginners and advanced, Raywood between X-mas and New Year for juniors, Horsham end of January for Beginners and advanced and one possible in Mt Beauty for advanced. Additionally 2 entry level comps, Horsham Week first January week, Vic state comps Ararat in March. Rgds - Rolf > From: ahal...@digitalearth.com.au > Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:32:37 +1000 > To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport > > Hi All, > > Interesting discussion, especially since I am one of those new members who is > deciding whether or not to continue with gliding. > > Caveat: My (lack of) experience and my personal situation may, or may not, be > representative of others making similar decisions. > > I started gliding last year at age 42. I now have 21 hours solo time (10 > flights), and have been fortunate to complete flights that meet all Silver C > requirements. So far it has been lot of fun, and resulted in a great sense of > achievement. From what I understand, I also approached learning to fly > gliders a little differently than most. (The journey so far is partly > documented at > http://www.hallam.id.au/journal/2009/11/3/learning-to-fly-gliders.html.) > > I still have a *lot* to learn. I now need to decide whether to invest the > time and money in that learning. That means thinking about what the future > looks like if I do continue with gliding, and making a call on the > opportunity costs. > > While the idea of flying in competitions is enticing I'm unlikely to be a > serious or regular competition pilot due to my age, the limited number of > hours I can fly each year, and the cost of a reasonable glider. Therefore, > thinking of soaring as a sport might not be realistic, for me. > > The most likely path, for me, seems to be treating soaring as more of a > hobby. Flying when I can, setting my own tasks, and maybe posting a few > flights on OLC. Competition flying is likely to be an occasional bonus rather > than a regular thing. I am wondering if that is going to be enough to keep me > interested. > > If I do continue, some of the things I'd like to experience while finishing > my Glider Pilot Certificate are: > > - More cross country soaring. Learning by doing via coaching in a dual seater > or pair flying with an experienced pilot. > - Graduating to a higher performance single seater (doesn't have to be the > latest and greatest, > just good enough to maximise my enjoyment at my skill level). > - Flying in a competition as a passenger in a dual seater. > - More training on all aspects of safety. > - More learning about soaring weather. > > Longer term: > > - Some form of competition/challenge that encourages low hours pilots to > improve their skills (safely).* > - Organised flying with pilots of similar experience. > > *Formal badge claims don't really interest me at this point, unless they are > needed to convey my level of experience to others. > > As others have said, to the newcomer there appears to be a large nebulous gap > between solo and elite competition. Working out what your realistic options > are, and therefore what you can get out of soaring, can be difficult. If you > don't understand what you can achieve, it is more difficult to commit the > time and money to find out. > > Feedback is w
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport
Andrew, Please don't be put off by negativity. Certainly there are criticisms to levelled at areas within our sport. However, on balance, the GFA does a fair job. In my opinion. I too started gliding in my early 40's. Being in Alice Springs at the time afforded me little opportunity to learn from experienced people willing to push boundaries in cross country flight. So I went looking. Back then there was a commercial operation at Tocumwal, where I was exposed to magnificent opportunities to learn. I went to Bernard Eckie's training week at Waikerie. Emilis showed my how to get around in conditions I had previously thought unflyable. Against some advice, I entered in the Nationals. They'll fly you into the ground' 'They're aggressive' I was told. The truth was that people like David Pietsch were more than tolerant and helpful, despite my sometimes appalling manners (for want of knowledge) in the air. At the Queensland State comps the next year, many people freely gave their advice; albeit Andrew Ward jokingly said he would advise no further, as I was doing too well in the comp. I managed to get a spot on the team to go to Italy to fly in the Pre Worlds. Paul Mander organised a training squad at Benalla, and for a week Grahan Garlick tasked us into the wilds of the hills around Benalla to desensitise us. Tony Tabart devoted a week of his life to coaching me from the back seat of a Janus. Tim Shirley came and crewed for me in Italy. None of these people ever asked for anything in return for all the effort they had put in to my learning. We did murder a few bottles of red along the way though. Many, many others helped along the way. Flying in Italy (God's playground) was the greatest privelige I have experienced; without reservation. (too bad I trashed the glider though) Andrew, it really shits me when people say that it's hard to learn to fly competitively in this country. My experience has been nothing short of wonderful. Sadly for me, my flying has been pretty limited by being at Uni for the last three years, but in under a year 'I'll be back...' All you need to do is ask, and people seem to come from everywhere to help in this sport. I couldn't let this discussion go on without providing some balance to the negativity. Regards, Simon Holding > From: ahal...@digitalearth.com.au > Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:32:37 +1000 > To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport > > Hi All, > > Interesting discussion, especially since I am one of those new members who is > deciding whether or not to continue with gliding. > > Caveat: My (lack of) experience and my personal situation may, or may not, be > representative of others making similar decisions. > > I started gliding last year at age 42. I now have 21 hours solo time (10 > flights), and have been fortunate to complete flights that meet all Silver C > requirements. So far it has been lot of fun, and resulted in a great sense of > achievement. From what I understand, I also approached learning to fly > gliders a little differently than most. (The journey so far is partly > documented at > http://www.hallam.id.au/journal/2009/11/3/learning-to-fly-gliders.html.) > > I still have a *lot* to learn. I now need to decide whether to invest the > time and money in that learning. That means thinking about what the future > looks like if I do continue with gliding, and making a call on the > opportunity costs. > > While the idea of flying in competitions is enticing I'm unlikely to be a > serious or regular competition pilot due to my age, the limited number of > hours I can fly each year, and the cost of a reasonable glider. Therefore, > thinking of soaring as a sport might not be realistic, for me. > > The most likely path, for me, seems to be treating soaring as more of a > hobby. Flying when I can, setting my own tasks, and maybe posting a few > flights on OLC. Competition flying is likely to be an occasional bonus rather > than a regular thing. I am wondering if that is going to be enough to keep me > interested. > > If I do continue, some of the things I'd like to experience while finishing > my Glider Pilot Certificate are: > > - More cross country soaring. Learning by doing via coaching in a dual seater > or pair flying with an experienced pilot. > - Graduating to a higher performance single seater (doesn't have to be the > latest and greatest, > just good enough to maximise my enjoyment at my skill level). > - Flying in a competition as a passenger in a dual seater. > - More training on all aspects of safety. > - More learning about soaring weather. > > Longer term:
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport
Andrew, Don't make the mistake of thinking that gliding competitions are for the cut-throat elite of the sport. That may be the case at International level, but at State level, they are all friendly and welcoming and willing to help newcomers Most of us started competitions around the same age as yourself, so age itself is not a barrier, neither is the need to own the latest and greatest glider. The club class is handicapped, and was designed to give older gliders, such as the typical club glider a fair go at winning a day. The use of Assigned Area Tasks (AAT's) have largely eliminated the risk of landing out, and enable gliders of vastly differing performance to compete in the same task. If you look at the results for the last few years, 2 seaters, including the K13 and K7 rate highly. Of course the handicap is not the only factor... There are a number of regulars at the state comps with a free seat in the back, and I know of several members from my club who have availed themselves of the opportunity. I have for a number of years flown with less experienced pilots at both the Narromine Cup, and in the NSW State Comps to give pilots a taste of what 'Real' gliding is all about. Once you have attained a 300km flight, you probably meet all the requirements of entering a State Comp, subject to the approval of your CFI, but if the opportunity of flying with a more experienced pilots presents itself I would suggest you grasp it with both hands. If competition itself does not appeal, try the Narromine Cup. -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Andrew Hallam Sent: Saturday, 28 August 2010 3:33 PM To: Aus-Soaring Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport Hi All, Interesting discussion, especially since I am one of those new members who is deciding whether or not to continue with gliding. Caveat: My (lack of) experience and my personal situation may, or may not, be representative of others making similar decisions. I started gliding last year at age 42. I now have 21 hours solo time (10 flights), and have been fortunate to complete flights that meet all Silver C requirements. So far it has been lot of fun, and resulted in a great sense of achievement. From what I understand, I also approached learning to fly gliders a little differently than most. (The journey so far is partly documented at http://www.hallam.id.au/journal/2009/11/3/learning-to-fly-gliders.html.) I still have a *lot* to learn. I now need to decide whether to invest the time and money in that learning. That means thinking about what the future looks like if I do continue with gliding, and making a call on the opportunity costs. While the idea of flying in competitions is enticing I'm unlikely to be a serious or regular competition pilot due to my age, the limited number of hours I can fly each year, and the cost of a reasonable glider. Therefore, thinking of soaring as a sport might not be realistic, for me. The most likely path, for me, seems to be treating soaring as more of a hobby. Flying when I can, setting my own tasks, and maybe posting a few flights on OLC. Competition flying is likely to be an occasional bonus rather than a regular thing. I am wondering if that is going to be enough to keep me interested. If I do continue, some of the things I'd like to experience while finishing my Glider Pilot Certificate are: - More cross country soaring. Learning by doing via coaching in a dual seater or pair flying with an experienced pilot. - Graduating to a higher performance single seater (doesn't have to be the latest and greatest, just good enough to maximise my enjoyment at my skill level). - Flying in a competition as a passenger in a dual seater. - More training on all aspects of safety. - More learning about soaring weather. Longer term: - Some form of competition/challenge that encourages low hours pilots to improve their skills (safely).* - Organised flying with pilots of similar experience. *Formal badge claims don't really interest me at this point, unless they are needed to convey my level of experience to others. As others have said, to the newcomer there appears to be a large nebulous gap between solo and elite competition. Working out what your realistic options are, and therefore what you can get out of soaring, can be difficult. If you don't understand what you can achieve, it is more difficult to commit the time and money to find out. Feedback is welcome. Andrew On 27/08/2010, at 11:09 PM, Tim Shirley wrote: > Paul has said it all, and Mike B has made similar comments. We need to switch people on to the sport of gliding. Not the grind of doing circuits and going solo, but all the challenges that are available from unpowered soaring flight. Cross-country, wave soaring, competitions, badges, records. The fun stuff. > > W
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport
Oops, Horsham week obviously first week Feb, not Jan as I stated. Rgds - Rolf From: rbuel...@hotmail.com To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 16:40:55 +1000 Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport Hello Andrew, You've done the hard part already, some of the fun apparently too and there is a lot more out there. Wether you want to fly comps or not is entirely up to you and I won't try to pesuade you either way. The reasons however why you possibly don't want to or can't are not valid. I flew my first regional comp (Horsham week) at age 45. The average age at the nationals is (sadly) probably closer to 50. One week flying at a state comp or similar level will give you more experience than one year gliding in almost any club. Don't know what gliders your club operates but if you can take one of them for a week there is absolutely no need for an own glider. Most private owners have one mostly because they can and want to have their toy available for more than just one week and the odd weekend. You'll be surprised how many have their own and hardly fly them. If you have fullfilled the Siver C conditions, post every flight to the OLC. It's fun to see what others in the same area and also elsewhere made out of the day. Again, I don't know how you are wired but I just love the competetive comparison. Not knowing where you fly makes it difficult to point you to coaching events but in Victoria there are 5 planned for this Year. Raywood (Bendigo) for all experiences over the Melbourne cup weekend, Benella over X-mas / New Year for beginners and advanced, Raywood between X-mas and New Year for juniors, Horsham end of January for Beginners and advanced and one possible in Mt Beauty for advanced. Additionally 2 entry level comps, Horsham Week first January week, Vic state comps Ararat in March. Rgds - Rolf > From: ahal...@digitalearth.com.au > Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:32:37 +1000 > To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport > > Hi All, > > Interesting discussion, especially since I am one of those new members who is > deciding whether or not to continue with gliding. > > Caveat: My (lack of) experience and my personal situation may, or may not, be > representative of others making similar decisions. > > I started gliding last year at age 42. I now have 21 hours solo time (10 > flights), and have been fortunate to complete flights that meet all Silver C > requirements. So far it has been lot of fun, and resulted in a great sense of > achievement. From what I understand, I also approached learning to fly > gliders a little differently than most. (The journey so far is partly > documented at > http://www.hallam.id.au/journal/2009/11/3/learning-to-fly-gliders.html.) > > I still have a *lot* to learn. I now need to decide whether to invest the > time and money in that learning. That means thinking about what the future > looks like if I do continue with gliding, and making a call on the > opportunity costs. > > While the idea of flying in competitions is enticing I'm unlikely to be a > serious or regular competition pilot due to my age, the limited number of > hours I can fly each year, and the cost of a reasonable glider. Therefore, > thinking of soaring as a sport might not be realistic, for me. > > The most likely path, for me, seems to be treating soaring as more of a > hobby. Flying when I can, setting my own tasks, and maybe posting a few > flights on OLC. Competition flying is likely to be an occasional bonus rather > than a regular thing. I am wondering if that is going to be enough to keep me > interested. > > If I do continue, some of the things I'd like to experience while finishing > my Glider Pilot Certificate are: > > - More cross country soaring. Learning by doing via coaching in a dual seater > or pair flying with an experienced pilot. > - Graduating to a higher performance single seater (doesn't have to be the > latest and greatest, > just good enough to maximise my enjoyment at my skill level). > - Flying in a competition as a passenger in a dual seater. > - More training on all aspects of safety. > - More learning about soaring weather. > > Longer term: > > - Some form of competition/challenge that encourages low hours pilots to > improve their skills (safely).* > - Organised flying with pilots of similar experience. > > *Formal badge claims don't really interest me at this point, unless they are > needed to convey my level of experience to others. > > As others have said, to the newcomer there appears to be a large nebulous gap > between solo and elite competition. Working out
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport
Hi Simon, > Andrew, it really shits me when people say that it's hard to learn to fly > competitively in this country. I didn't mean to imply that my perceptions were influenced by such opinions. I'm just trying to look at the possibilities pragmatically, given my personal circumstances. Let's see if I can give you a bit of a sketch... Spending time away from family is hard (wife, kids 11 and 14). The family like to have holidays too, but finding something to do while I fly isn't their idea of fun. I have a limited amount of money spend on gliding. I live on the east coast (Wollongong) so there is significant travel involved to "acclaimed" gliding locations. You know the drill. I also have a personality type that wants to do things properly. If I commit to something I like to be able to give it a reasonable go. Therefore, my thinking is that 40-80 hours per year of flight time would be ballpark, for me. I perceive that to be low given the stories I've heard about not being able to fly certain types without 500+ hours logged (which would take me 6-12 years to attain). Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the experience needed and the opportunities, particularly in Club Class. Sounds like I should be seeking coaching opportunities, and not giving up on competition flying. Where do I find these coach opportunities? (I've been flying out of Narromine, but it's almost as easy to get to anywhere from SA to QLD.) Thanks Rolf, Alan, Simon and Derek for the encouragement. Andrew ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport
> > Therefore, my thinking is that 40-80 hours per year of flight time would be > ballpark, for me. I perceive that to be low given the stories I've heard > about not being able to fly certain types without 500+ hours logged (which > would take me 6-12 years to attain). Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the > experience needed and the opportunities, particularly in Club Class. > Hi Andrew, 40 to 80 hours may not be enough to qualify internationally but as regular club pilots go, that is the top end, no problem at all to do a lot of x-country flying. I know of only one glider where their makers (Akaflieg Braunschweig's SB 13) require their members to have 500 hours before they permit them to fly it. Few clubs have gliders which can't be managed by a pilot with around 100 hours, most need significantly less. What i've forgotten to mention in my first post on the subject - one of our Juniors, not even cross country rated yet, placed very well in the decentralised junior comp last season. She is simply very keen to advance and posts every flight of any duration on the OLC. Rgds - Rolf ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport
Great to see posts from Yannick and this from Andrew. My Club Caboolture is like that Sydney Club and has Brisbane to the south and under 3500' CTA and limited XC options. In our training, we refer to cross country in our circuit training (covering the altimeter) and actively send our members out to the inland cross country clubs DDSC, Kingaroy, Boonah and Warwick after training them to go solo and get off daily checks. In addition, I usually organise a week every year for our members at DDSC and so we realise that we are a feeder club. As an instructor, it is really great to see our ex-members at the other clubs so our club is not growing per se but if you include all our ex-members at other clubs, we are! :-) PeterS On 28/08/2010 3:32 PM, Andrew Hallam wrote: Hi All, Interesting discussion, especially since I am one of those new members who is deciding whether or not to continue with gliding. Caveat: My (lack of) experience and my personal situation may, or may not, be representative of others making similar decisions. I started gliding last year at age 42. I now have 21 hours solo time (10 flights), and have been fortunate to complete flights that meet all Silver C requirements. So far it has been lot of fun, and resulted in a great sense of achievement. From what I understand, I also approached learning to fly gliders a little differently than most. (The journey so far is partly documented at http://www.hallam.id.au/journal/2009/11/3/learning-to-fly-gliders.html.) I still have a *lot* to learn. I now need to decide whether to invest the time and money in that learning. That means thinking about what the future looks like if I do continue with gliding, and making a call on the opportunity costs. While the idea of flying in competitions is enticing I'm unlikely to be a serious or regular competition pilot due to my age, the limited number of hours I can fly each year, and the cost of a reasonable glider. Therefore, thinking of soaring as a sport might not be realistic, for me. The most likely path, for me, seems to be treating soaring as more of a hobby. Flying when I can, setting my own tasks, and maybe posting a few flights on OLC. Competition flying is likely to be an occasional bonus rather than a regular thing. I am wondering if that is going to be enough to keep me interested. If I do continue, some of the things I'd like to experience while finishing my Glider Pilot Certificate are: - More cross country soaring. Learning by doing via coaching in a dual seater or pair flying with an experienced pilot. - Graduating to a higher performance single seater (doesn't have to be the latest and greatest, just good enough to maximise my enjoyment at my skill level). - Flying in a competition as a passenger in a dual seater. - More training on all aspects of safety. - More learning about soaring weather. Longer term: - Some form of competition/challenge that encourages low hours pilots to improve their skills (safely).* - Organised flying with pilots of similar experience. *Formal badge claims don't really interest me at this point, unless they are needed to convey my level of experience to others. As others have said, to the newcomer there appears to be a large nebulous gap between solo and elite competition. Working out what your realistic options are, and therefore what you can get out of soaring, can be difficult. If you don't understand what you can achieve, it is more difficult to commit the time and money to find out. Feedback is welcome. Andrew On 27/08/2010, at 11:09 PM, Tim Shirley wrote: Paul has said it all, and Mike B has made similar comments. We need to switch people on to the sport of gliding. Not the grind of doing circuits and going solo, but all the challenges that are available from unpowered soaring flight. Cross-country, wave soaring, competitions, badges, records. The fun stuff. We are not a low-cost flying training organisation – at least, we are not today. Gliding is a SPORT and should be marketed as such. If we want to give scholarships, we should be looking at the incentive to continue, not just the incentive to start. For example, by paying for early X/C pilots to go to coaching camps or to their first competitions. That’s what will hook them. Whereas a few free training flights won’t help, because the money runs out before the fun starts. Being a sport means that the customers we target will be different, and should include other flying disciplines, especially those where there is limited sporting challenge. Long term participation in our sport needs people to have resources, including time and money as well as dedication, enthusiasm and commitment. When I take a TIF I spend most of the time talking about the possibilities. I chat about the competitions, the long flights people do, the fun of wave flying. Anything to turn them on to the challenge, and away from the impossible question
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport
Yeah, the OLC's fantastic. There's not really any of the 'competitive comparison' Rolf was on about there yet - yet ;-) - but everytime I login I'll have a look at flights that he and other Geelong members have done. It shows you what's possible. Nothing to be lost by posting a flight up. Best Regards Ailsa On 28 August 2010 18:50, rolf a. buelter wrote: > > > > Therefore, my thinking is that 40-80 hours per year of flight time would > be ballpark, for me. I perceive that to be low given the stories I've heard > about not being able to fly certain types without 500+ hours logged (which > would take me 6-12 years to attain). Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the > experience needed and the opportunities, particularly in Club Class. > > > > Hi Andrew, > > 40 to 80 hours may not be enough to qualify internationally but as regular > club pilots go, that is the top end, no problem at all to do a lot of > x-country flying. I know of only one glider where their makers (Akaflieg > Braunschweig's SB 13) require their members to have 500 hours before they > permit them to fly it. Few clubs have gliders which can't be managed by a > pilot with around 100 hours, most need significantly less. > What i've forgotten to mention in my first post on the subject - one of our > Juniors, not even cross country rated yet, placed very well in the > decentralised junior comp last season. She is simply very keen to advance > and posts every flight of any duration on the OLC. > > Rgds - Rolf > > > > > ___ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport
Hi Andrew, any chance of involving the family in your flying adventures? It would probably mean sacrificing a little of your own flying and a somewhat greater financial burden but it can pay off big time further down the track. With 3 kids and a wife who gets airsick easily I know what it's like, believe me. I was 39 when I (re)started gliding, my oldest was 11. I made sure that every day I flew they also had at least a flight, first with someone else and after I got my pax rating with me. I was lucky that at the time there was another family with young kids at our club and the kids could play and ride their bikes together while I went on my early cross-country ventures. If they hadn't had a flight when (if) I came back they got a flight if they still wanted (which they usually did, especially my daughter who couldn't get enough of the "roller-coaster"). Family holidays since then often involved gliding - but not exclusively. If so the rule was there had to be fun for everyone. Most gliding clubs and their surroundings have something to offer - sometimes you just have to look a bit harder or be a little creative. The rewards? The unforgettable flights I have been able to share with my wife (who initially was quite scared and still is challenged by motion sickness) - flying in formation with a pair of wedgetail eagles who like us enjoyed a spectacular sunset together in smooth ridge lift, (out)landing at Wilpena airstrip in the Flinders Ranges, checking out secluded Murray River beaches from the air and the next day swimming and basking in the sun there, having our own scenic flight around a winery and later sampling their reds and menu on a balmy summer night, and and and... Showing my daughter the towns and ranges of the Mid North of SA from the air, flying with her to a neighbouring club for an ice cream and then back home with a long final glide into the setting sun, showing her St May Peak from above after we had enjoyed a great hike up there, hearing her giggle with absolute glee when she pretended to tickle a curious juvenile wedgetail eagle's belly (yes, it came in THAT close)... Watching the kids learn to fly themselves. Coaching my boys in the leadup to JoeyGlide and watching them have fun with likeminded youngsters at a few of these comps, team flying with them from our home club and away somewhere (which invariably turns into some sort of race - nowadays it's the only sport at which I still seem to be able to beat them reliably), having fun in a twin seater together, collecting outlanding/retrieve stories (my oldest arguably has the family best of those to tell but don't let him know I wrote that)... Although I am personally more interested in flying "long" distance (preferably with a few others as a team) rather than competitions I whole-heartedly agree with what Rolf Buelter and Simon Holding wrote about the competition scene. There are so many ways to enjoy our sport/hobby, once your are at a reasonable skill level, even without flying the latest and greatest ship in World Comps. If you are thinking of dropping out - think of what you'll be missing out on... Ulrich Stauss On Sat 28/08/10 17:53 , Andrew Hallam ahal...@digitalearth.com.au sent: Hi Simon, > Andrew, it really shits me when people say that it's hard to learn to fly competitively in this country. I didn't mean to imply that my perceptions were influenced by such opinions. I'm just trying to look at the possibilities pragmatically, given my personal circumstances. Let's see if I can give you a bit of a sketch... Spending time away from family is hard (wife, kids 11 and 14). The family like to have holidays too, but finding something to do while I fly isn't their idea of fun. I have a limited amount of money spend on gliding. I live on the east coast (Wollongong) so there is significant travel involved to "acclaimed" gliding locations. You know the drill. I also have a personality type that wants to do things properly. If I commit to something I like to be able to give it a reasonable go. Therefore, my thinking is that 40-80 hours per year of flight time would be ballpark, for me. I perceive that to be low given the stories I've heard about not being able to fly certain types without 500+ hours logged (which would take me 6-12 years to attain). Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the experience needed and the opportunities, particularly in Club Class. Sounds like I should be seeking coaching opportunities, and not giving up on competition flying. Where do I find these coach opportunities? (I've been flying out of Narromine, but it's almost as easy to get to anywhere from SA to QLD.) Thanks Rolf, Alan, Simon and Derek for the encouragement. Andrew ___ Aus-soaring mailing li
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport
On 28/08/2010, at 6:23 PM, Andrew Hallam wrote: > Therefore, my thinking is that 40-80 hours per year of flight time would be > ballpark, for me. Mmmm... On reflection, perhaps 30-50 hours per year might be more realistic, for me, based on getting 10 reasonable flying days per year. /A ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport
>Therefore, my thinking is that 40-80 hours per year of flight time would be >ballpark, for me. I perceive that to be low given the stories I've heard about >not being able to fly certain types without 500+ hours logged (which would >take me 6-12 years to attain). Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the experience >needed and the opportunities, particularly in Club Class. You have to get away from the inner suburban clubs like Camden to get any hours and experience. They seem to be only aimed at 30 minute flights. The first weekend I flew outside a near-city centre, I got 5 1/2 hours. Probably for NSW the best ideas are Keepit, Bathurst and possibly Temora. A handful of "long" weekends a year will give you enough hours to be safe. Most of the regional clubs have good outlanding opportunities and you can get into a single seater with less hours. Possibly under 30 for a lovely glider like the Junior which is easily capable of 300 (and in the right hands (not mine) 500k). You don't need to get too focussed on competition IMHO, but you definitely need to set yourself goals. Without a goal, flying can be come aimless and boring. Again, setting interesting goals is not easy with suburban sites. You have to go bush. I fly 120+ hours a year and don't fly proper comps. I have flow all the badge flights but never submitted them. I flew 520 kms last year on one flight but didn't submit it anywhere (in any case, my goal was to fly a 300 km task). The OLC is great fun if only for the fact that you can bore your family and work colleages, replaying your results. There's an under 200 hours section too. The OLC can provide enough motivation and goals to keep you interested. There are also other less formal comps such as regattas where you can do pair flying or team up in a two-seater to get XC experience. These can be great fun because you are stretching yourself, flying in air you would not normally fly in, and if you don't do too well, it's the hero you are flying with who gets penalised. It can be difficult getting the time away from home with a young family. My strategy, which is a slightly risky one, is to continually pester my wife for sex. Normally she forces me to go away gliding. Either way it's not misery. D. On 29/08/2010, Andrew Hallam wrote: > On 28/08/2010, at 6:23 PM, Andrew Hallam wrote: >> Therefore, my thinking is that 40-80 hours per year of flight time would >> be ballpark, for me. > > Mmmm... On reflection, perhaps 30-50 hours per year might be more realistic, > for me, based on getting 10 reasonable flying days per year. > > /A > ___ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport
It is great to see Peter and the Caboulture club realise the facts about City/coastal and Country/inland clubs. From what I have seen at Qld Easter and state comps the system is working well, much less so in NSW. It shits me off completely when I hear all this "comp Pilots are dangerous and unfriendly" crap from people who have never been to one in the last 10-20 years. Negativity is destructive, listen to Ross M'clean, Simon Holding etc re their first comp experiences and the help they received, we all like to see new pilots enjoying themselves!. Re any lack of help from NSWGA, anyone going to take on the Marketing Officer for NSW position advertised for last 2 years or only bitch here??? Having just returned from 6 weeks in Europe we don't realise just how good we have it here!! [and not just the weather, GFA/CASA is nothing on EASA!] Happy Flying, Tom --- On Sat, 28/8/10, Peter Stephenson wrote: From: Peter Stephenson Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Received: Saturday, 28 August, 2010, 7:50 PM Great to see posts from Yannick and this from Andrew. My Club Caboolture is like that Sydney Club and has Brisbane to the south and under 3500' CTA and limited XC options. In our training, we refer to cross country in our circuit training (covering the altimeter) and actively send our members out to the inland cross country clubs DDSC, Kingaroy, Boonah and Warwick after training them to go solo and get off daily checks. In addition, I usually organise a week every year for our members at DDSC and so we realise that we are a feeder club. As an instructor, it is really great to see our ex-members at the other clubs so our club is not growing per se but if you include all our ex-members at other clubs, we are! :-) PeterS On 28/08/2010 3:32 PM, Andrew Hallam wrote: > Hi All, > > Interesting discussion, especially since I am one of those new members who is > deciding whether or not to continue with gliding. > > Caveat: My (lack of) experience and my personal situation may, or may not, be > representative of others making similar decisions. > > I started gliding last year at age 42. I now have 21 hours solo time (10 > flights), and have been fortunate to complete flights that meet all Silver C > requirements. So far it has been lot of fun, and resulted in a great sense of > achievement. From what I understand, I also approached learning to fly > gliders a little differently than most. (The journey so far is partly > documented at > http://www.hallam.id.au/journal/2009/11/3/learning-to-fly-gliders.html.) > > I still have a *lot* to learn. I now need to decide whether to invest the > time and money in that learning. That means thinking about what the future > looks like if I do continue with gliding, and making a call on the > opportunity costs. > > While the idea of flying in competitions is enticing I'm unlikely to be a > serious or regular competition pilot due to my age, the limited number of > hours I can fly each year, and the cost of a reasonable glider. Therefore, > thinking of soaring as a sport might not be realistic, for me. > > The most likely path, for me, seems to be treating soaring as more of a > hobby. Flying when I can, setting my own tasks, and maybe posting a few > flights on OLC. Competition flying is likely to be an occasional bonus rather > than a regular thing. I am wondering if that is going to be enough to keep me > interested. > > If I do continue, some of the things I'd like to experience while finishing > my Glider Pilot Certificate are: > > - More cross country soaring. Learning by doing via coaching in a dual seater > or pair flying with an experienced pilot. > - Graduating to a higher performance single seater (doesn't have to be the > latest and greatest, > just good enough to maximise my enjoyment at my skill level). > - Flying in a competition as a passenger in a dual seater. > - More training on all aspects of safety. > - More learning about soaring weather. > > Longer term: > > - Some form of competition/challenge that encourages low hours pilots to > improve their skills (safely).* > - Organised flying with pilots of similar experience. > > *Formal badge claims don't really interest me at this point, unless they are > needed to convey my level of experience to others. > > As others have said, to the newcomer there appears to be a large nebulous gap > between solo and elite competition. Working out what your realistic options > are, and therefore what you can get out of soaring, can be difficult. If you > don't understand what you can achieve, it is more difficult to commit the > time and money t
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport
I would like to agree with Tom, Ross and Simon. Last season I attended my first comp and flew in the NSW comps at Narromine in club class. Had nothing but support from the old hands and left hooked on comp flying looking forward to this season with Narromine Cup, NSW comps at Keepit and club class nationals at Benalla on the agenda. As an ex hang glider pilot I have found gliding to be an amazing opening of horizons regarding XC flight. There are a lot of HG pilots out there who would jump at this if they knew what a buzz XC in a sailplane is . How do we go forward? Regards. Mark Barnfield. _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of tom claffey Sent: Sunday, 29 August 2010 1:40 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport It is great to see Peter and the Caboulture club realise the facts about City/coastal and Country/inland clubs. From what I have seen at Qld Easter and state comps the system is working well, much less so in NSW. It shits me off completely when I hear all this "comp Pilots are dangerous and unfriendly" crap from people who have never been to one in the last 10-20 years. Negativity is destructive, listen to Ross M'clean, Simon Holding etc re their first comp experiences and the help they received, we all like to see new pilots enjoying themselves!. Re any lack of help from NSWGA, anyone going to take on the Marketing Officer for NSW position advertised for last 2 years or only bitch here??? Having just returned from 6 weeks in Europe we don't realise just how good we have it here!! [and not just the weather, GFA/CASA is nothing on EASA!] Happy Flying, Tom --- On Sat, 28/8/10, Peter Stephenson wrote: From: Peter Stephenson Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Received: Saturday, 28 August, 2010, 7:50 PM Great to see posts from Yannick and this from Andrew. My Club Caboolture is like that Sydney Club and has Brisbane to the south and under 3500' CTA and limited XC options. In our training, we refer to cross country in our circuit training (covering the altimeter) and actively send our members out to the inland cross country clubs DDSC, Kingaroy, Boonah and Warwick after training them to go solo and get off daily checks. In addition, I usually organise a week every year for our members at DDSC and so we realise that we are a feeder club. As an instructor, it is really great to see our ex-members at the other clubs so our club is not growing per se but if you include all our ex-members at other clubs, we are! :-) PeterS On 28/08/2010 3:32 PM, Andrew Hallam wrote: > Hi All, > > Interesting discussion, especially since I am one of those new members who is deciding whether or not to continue with gliding. > > Caveat: My (lack of) experience and my personal situation may, or may not, be representative of others making similar decisions. > > I started gliding last year at age 42. I now have 21 hours solo time (10 flights), and have been fortunate to complete flights that meet all Silver C requirements. So far it has been lot of fun, and resulted in a great sense of achievement. From what I understand, I also approached learning to fly gliders a little differently than most. (The journey so far is partly documented at http://www.hallam.id.au/journal/2009/11/3/learning-to-fly-gliders.html.) > > I still have a *lot* to learn. I now need to decide whether to invest the time and money in that learning. That means thinking about what the future looks like if I do continue with gliding, and making a call on the opportunity costs. > > While the idea of flying in competitions is enticing I'm unlikely to be a serious or regular competition pilot due to my age, the limited number of hours I can fly each year, and the cost of a reasonable glider. Therefore, thinking of soaring as a sport might not be realistic, for me. > > The most likely path, for me, seems to be treating soaring as more of a hobby. Flying when I can, setting my own tasks, and maybe posting a few flights on OLC. Competition flying is likely to be an occasional bonus rather than a regular thing. I am wondering if that is going to be enough to keep me interested. > > If I do continue, some of the things I'd like to experience while finishing my Glider Pilot Certificate are: > > - More cross country soaring. Learning by doing via coaching in a dual seater or pair flying with an experienced pilot. > - Graduating to a higher performance single seater (doesn't have to be the latest and greatest, >just good enough to maximise my enjoyment at my skill level). > - Flying in a competition as a passenger in a dual seater. > - More training o
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport
Don't remember who added "start of a sport", but thank you. This thread has incorporated many constructive ideas. While rigging the glider the other day I met yet another Hang Glider pilot who had sold all his HG gear and was getting instruction in sailplanes. Tony has done lots of XC in mostly rigid wing HG. He mentioned that the concept of sailplanes being more expensive is a bit of an illusion when you consider retrieve costs, replacing broken equipment, etc. Some of this could be used to help market our sport to HG and PG pilots wondering how long their legs will last. I think Tony was a bit concerned about having to train in a Schweizer 2-33 "Dragmaster". At least Australia is relatively free of those. The G103 or AS-K21 was more like what he was thinking. (Sorry, Patch) One paragliding friend I took up for a flight in a K21 did amazingly well. He followed though while briefed on what the rudder pedals do, airspeeds, etc. While thermalling, he told me it was easier to look at the horizon over the nose to hold airspeed, and he'd never flown anything with a nose before! We ran a shear line, thermalled up over the ridge. He had it down in a flash. In all walks of life, the sore thumb sticking out is more easily remembered. One bad act by one pilot could leave a lasting impression on an ab-initio or first-time visitor to the airfield. At home we refer to these as "Glassholes". It's much more productive to get out of your Nimbus 12 or AS-W43 and walk up to the student in the launch line ahead of you to ask what's on their agenda for the day, etc. Australian club operations seem to be a better venue for bringing the new members in touch with the experienced pilots than US commercial ops. The recent GFA move to incorporate XC coaching for students is a fabulous idea. My small amount of competition experience is that there's a great bunch of people out there. Some seem a bit stressed pre-flight, while others are having fun. Try to be aware of any stress and not chase anyone away thinking "glasshole". Was looking forward to seeing you lot at Keepit this November, but work has put itself in the way. Jim ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport to love.
Adam, Thanks for your pragmatic words. In the 1970's I was a 'hot' competition pilot, flew at the 76 World comps, but could not keep up with the costs and raised a family etc. I flew for the family years once a month or so to keep the love or hobby alive. I got 3 diamonds, 750 etc and am still adding to the ~4,000 hours. I enjoy a week or 2 over summer barreling around 300 ~ 500 if conditions are good and always turn in to home to avoid outlanding. And I enjoy supporting others at the camp. Gliding would be real dull if there were no bragging rights at sunset. There are many aspects you have yet to discover so keep at it. A few would include: 1. Getting all FAI badges signed up. 2. Getting well above cloud base. See Kosciusko snow 10,000' below. 3. Ridge flying. Just imagine Kosciusko, Wilpena Pound, Mt Warning, or Siding Springs 100 meters off one wing tip, yet easy final glide home under the other. 4. Or routinely touching down precisely on runway centerline [the white bit, not just the black] 5. Knowing where you want to be in 20 minutes [10 years?] and having the skill to make it happen. Try to keep the family interested also. Camp by a lake so they can enjoy a hot summers day. And take them for a smooth glider flight regularly to share the fun. And I can recommend that back seat competition ride you talk about. My son once asked me why I do it. I struggled. He answered for me: "I thought you did it because you love it." And I do. Go for it. Alan Wilson Canberra -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Andrew Hallam Sent: Saturday, 28 August 2010 3:33 PM To: Aus-Soaring Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport Hi All, Interesting discussion, especially since I am one of those new members who is deciding whether or not to continue with gliding. Caveat: My (lack of) experience and my personal situation may, or may not, be representative of others making similar decisions. I started gliding last year at age 42. I now have 21 hours solo time (10 flights), and have been fortunate to complete flights that meet all Silver C requirements. So far it has been lot of fun, and resulted in a great sense of achievement. From what I understand, I also approached learning to fly gliders a little differently than most. (The journey so far is partly documented at http://www.hallam.id.au/journal/2009/11/3/learning-to-fly-gliders.html.) I still have a *lot* to learn. I now need to decide whether to invest the time and money in that learning. That means thinking about what the future looks like if I do continue with gliding, and making a call on the opportunity costs. While the idea of flying in competitions is enticing I'm unlikely to be a serious or regular competition pilot due to my age, the limited number of hours I can fly each year, and the cost of a reasonable glider. Therefore, thinking of soaring as a sport might not be realistic, for me. The most likely path, for me, seems to be treating soaring as more of a hobby. Flying when I can, setting my own tasks, and maybe posting a few flights on OLC. Competition flying is likely to be an occasional bonus rather than a regular thing. I am wondering if that is going to be enough to keep me interested. If I do continue, some of the things I'd like to experience while finishing my Glider Pilot Certificate are: - More cross country soaring. Learning by doing via coaching in a dual seater or pair flying with an experienced pilot. - Graduating to a higher performance single seater (doesn't have to be the latest and greatest, just good enough to maximise my enjoyment at my skill level). - Flying in a competition as a passenger in a dual seater. - More training on all aspects of safety. - More learning about soaring weather. Longer term: - Some form of competition/challenge that encourages low hours pilots to improve their skills (safely).* - Organised flying with pilots of similar experience. *Formal badge claims don't really interest me at this point, unless they are needed to convey my level of experience to others. As others have said, to the newcomer there appears to be a large nebulous gap between solo and elite competition. Working out what your realistic options are, and therefore what you can get out of soaring, can be difficult. If you don't understand what you can achieve, it is more difficult to commit the time and money to find out. Feedback is welcome. Andrew On 27/08/2010, at 11:09 PM, Tim Shirley wrote: > Paul has said it all, and Mike B has made similar comments. We need to switch people on to the sport of gliding. Not the grind of doing circuits and going solo, but all the challenges that are available from unpowered soaring flight. Cross-country, wave soaring, competitions, badges, records.
