Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM update

[Al Borowski]

On 14/03/2015, Matthew Scutter  wrote:
> The protocols in the current version (v5) and new version (v6) are
> supposedly totally incompatible, so please update your FLARMs before next
> flight or you won't be able to see pilots with the other version.

I could have sworn, back when FLARM was being promoted, the designers
were claiming the protocol would be freely available to other
manufacturers in the interest of safety.

Making a battery powered box that combines a GPS, radio, and collision
sensing algorithms is not beyond a competent engineer. I did something
very similar as a final year university project - not as refined,
obviously, but functional.

The barrier to entry should be quite low as there is (to my knowledge)
no special flight certification and the radio bands used are
license-free / not aviation specific. If the protocol were open,
competition would almost certainly drive the cost of collision
avoidance devices down.

A closed protocol is healthy for FLARM. For the wider gliding
community? I like competition.

Cheers,

Al
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Flarm Update

[Laurie Hoffman]

Hi All,Just to add to Laurie Simpkin's post
We have operated a Dimona motor glider out of Camden for the last 14 years and 
have not adopted use of FLARM for totally different operational reasons to that 
of Laurie's.Camden for those that don't know it is a Class D control zone on 
Sydney's SW outskirts with three gliding clubs and dozens of private operators 
as well as significant GA, prop and jet warbirds, rotary wing training and 
aerial bush fire fighting in season.Almost all of our flights are touring 
flights carried out under a combination of power and glide and often with 
soaring. A large portion (80-90%) of each flight is carried out between 
30-100km from Camden and over the rugged Blue Mts, or over the coast, where 
very little gliding takes place.Under these very low gliding density conditions 
we determined that the head in cockpit disadvantage of FLARM doesn't outweigh 
any advantage, for OUR situation.There are numerous other strategies, 
especially for touring motor gliders, that can make both lookout and your own 
visibility much more effective.Laurie Hoffman

  From: Laurie Simpkins 
 To: "aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net"  
 Sent: Monday, 16 March 2015, 23:34
 Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Flarm Update
   
Hi,
 Just attempted to updated my Swiss Flarm this weekend and turned it into an 
expensive paperweight.  Fortunately two well known members of WGC ( thanks 
again) pooled their combined knowledge and many hours later it became a semi 
useful part of the airframe again. Was about to scrap all electronics and 
install my cosim vario and make my own beeping noises???
It will be a sad day IMHO when we mandate any form of electronic device for all 
gliders as standard equipment. I appreciate their use for gliders and tugs ( I 
used to tow ) in comps etc but as the owner of some vintage gliders ( including 
my open cirrus) i challenge their relevance in all parts of our sport.  
I still believe we could help ourselves more by  encouraging more anti 
collision marking ( read all the arguments) and keeping our heads out of the 
cockpit where they belong. 
Before you crucify me ( as happens occasionally here) please justify your 
comments with why you think i need a Flarm or equivalent in a vintage or 
training aircraft mostly operating in the CTAF. Soon we will be asked these 
questions as a body and i hope we answer wisely.
I say again i support and understand the relevance in a comp situation for 
devices likes Flarms however we  will need to make future decisions and rules 
for all the gliding community.
Currently i probably couldn't operate at some local clubs due to an insistence 
an Flarms for all aircraft???
 
cheers
Laurie
 
GMO,GDW,GEF,GHJ,GTG 
 

 
> From: aus-soaring-requ...@lists.internode.on.net
> Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 138, Issue 25
> To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 21:22:52 +1030
> 
> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to
> aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> aus-soaring-requ...@lists.internode.on.net
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> aus-soaring-ow...@lists.internode.on.net
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
> 1. Re: FLARM update (Mike Borgelt)
> 2. Easter Comp 2015 cancelled (Erich Wittstock)
> 3. Re: Easter Comp 2015 cancelled (Ian Downes)
> 
> 
> --------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 11:47:29 +1000
> From: Mike Borgelt 
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM update
> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
> 
> Message-ID: <77bbc2$v9j...@ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
> 
> As a standalone device a Flarm is merely an expensive GPS data source.
> 
> Flarm is a *system* and requires other devices 
> and compatibility between devices to function. 
> The usefulness also degrades rapidly as the 
> proportion of potential targets either is not 
> equipped or the unit isn't working or is non compatible.
> 
> Analogies with parachutes aren't useful. There 
> are many parachute manufacturers and I'm not 
> aware that licence fees are being paid by the 
> others to one manufacturer and while there may 
> be airworthiness directives from time to time on a particular brand or type of
> 
> parachute there aren't potential fleet wide problems every year.
> 
> Not a problem u

Re: [Aus-soaring] Flarm Update

[Ron]

Just wondering where this matter stands under consumer law? These units are not 
very old. I find the idea that i am forced to buy something from a company that 
has no regard for its early customers  totally offensive. You certainly  would  
not normally do business with them.

 

> On 17 Mar 2015, at 00:08, Chris Runeckles  wrote:
> 
> Hi Laurie
> 
> So  before I make the same error with my Swiss flarm, what was the problem? 
> and could you share the fix with the forum please
> 
> Many thanks
> 
> Chris Runeckles
> GCWA
> 
>> On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Laurie Simpkins  wrote:
>> Hi,
>>  Just attempted to updated my Swiss Flarm this weekend and turned it into an 
>> expensive paperweight.  Fortunately two well known members of WGC ( thanks 
>> again) pooled their combined knowledge and many hours later it became a semi 
>> useful part of the airframe again. Was about to scrap all electronics and 
>> install my cosim vario and make my own beeping noises???
>> It will be a sad day IMHO when we mandate any form of electronic device for 
>> all gliders as standard equipment. I appreciate their use for gliders and 
>> tugs ( I used to tow ) in comps etc but as the owner of some vintage gliders 
>> ( including my open cirrus) i challenge their relevance in all parts of our 
>> sport.  
>> I still believe we could help ourselves more by  encouraging more anti 
>> collision marking ( read all the arguments) and keeping our heads out of the 
>> cockpit where they belong. 
>> Before you crucify me ( as happens occasionally here) please justify your 
>> comments with why you think i need a Flarm or equivalent in a vintage or 
>> training aircraft mostly operating in the CTAF. Soon we will be asked these 
>> questions as a body and i hope we answer wisely.
>> I say again i support and understand the relevance in a comp situation for 
>> devices likes Flarms however we  will need to make future decisions and 
>> rules for all the gliding community.
>> Currently i probably couldn't operate at some local clubs due to an 
>> insistence an Flarms for all aircraft???
>>  
>> cheers
>> Laurie
>>  
>> GMO,GDW,GEF,GHJ,GTG 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> > From: aus-soaring-requ...@lists.internode.on.net
>> > Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 138, Issue 25
>> > To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
>> > Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 21:22:52 +1030
>> > 
>> > Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to
>> > aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
>> > 
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> > aus-soaring-requ...@lists.internode.on.net
>> > 
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> > aus-soaring-ow...@lists.internode.on.net
>> > 
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..."
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Today's Topics:
>> > 
>> > 1. Re: FLARM update (Mike Borgelt)
>> > 2. Easter Comp 2015 cancelled (Erich Wittstock)
>> > 3. Re: Easter Comp 2015 cancelled (Ian Downes)
>> > 
>> > 
>> > --
>> > 
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 11:47:29 +1000
>> > From: Mike Borgelt 
>> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM update
>> > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
>> > 
>> > Message-ID: <77bbc2$v9j...@ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>> > 
>> > As a standalone device a Flarm is merely an expensive GPS data source.
>> > 
>> > Flarm is a *system* and requires other devices 
>> > and compatibility between devices to function. 
>> > The usefulness also degrades rapidly as the 
>> > proportion of potential targets either is not 
>> > equipped or the unit isn't working or is non compatible.
>> > 
>> > Analogies with parachutes aren't useful. There 
>> > are many parachute manufacturers and I'm not 
>> > aware that licence fees are being paid by the 
>> > others to one manufacturer and while there may 
>> > be airworthiness directives from time to time on a particular brand or 
>> > type of
>>

Re: [Aus-soaring] Flarm Update

[Chris Runeckles]

Hi Laurie

So  before I make the same error with my Swiss flarm, what was the problem?
and could you share the fix with the forum please

Many thanks

Chris Runeckles
GCWA

On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Laurie Simpkins 
wrote:

> Hi,
>  Just attempted to updated my Swiss Flarm this weekend and turned it into
> an expensive paperweight.  Fortunately two well known members of WGC (
> thanks again) pooled their combined knowledge and many hours later it
> became a semi useful part of the airframe again. Was about to scrap all
> electronics and install my cosim vario and make my own beeping noises???
> It will be a sad day IMHO when we mandate any form of electronic device
> for all gliders as standard equipment. I appreciate their use for gliders
> and tugs ( I used to tow ) in comps etc but as the owner of some vintage
> gliders ( including my open cirrus) i challenge their relevance in all
> parts of our sport.
> I still believe we could help ourselves more by  encouraging more anti
> collision marking ( read all the arguments) and keeping our heads out of
> the cockpit where they belong.
> Before you crucify me ( as happens occasionally here) please justify your
> comments with why you think i need a Flarm or equivalent in a vintage or
> training aircraft mostly operating in the CTAF. Soon we will be asked these
> questions as a body and i hope we answer wisely.
> I say again i support and understand the relevance in a comp situation for
> devices likes Flarms however we  will need to make future decisions and
> rules for all the gliding community.
> Currently i probably couldn't operate at some local clubs due to an
> insistence an Flarms for all aircraft???
>
> cheers
> Laurie
>
> GMO,GDW,GEF,GHJ,GTG
>
>
>
> > From: aus-soaring-requ...@lists.internode.on.net
> > Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 138, Issue 25
> > To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> > Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 21:22:52 +1030
> >
> > Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to
> > aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > aus-soaring-requ...@lists.internode.on.net
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > aus-soaring-ow...@lists.internode.on.net
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: FLARM update (Mike Borgelt)
> > 2. Easter Comp 2015 cancelled (Erich Wittstock)
> > 3. Re: Easter Comp 2015 cancelled (Ian Downes)
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 11:47:29 +1000
> > From: Mike Borgelt 
> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM update
> > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
> > 
> > Message-ID: <77bbc2$v9j...@ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
> >
> > As a standalone device a Flarm is merely an expensive GPS data source.
> >
> > Flarm is a *system* and requires other devices
> > and compatibility between devices to function.
> > The usefulness also degrades rapidly as the
> > proportion of potential targets either is not
> > equipped or the unit isn't working or is non compatible.
> >
> > Analogies with parachutes aren't useful. There
> > are many parachute manufacturers and I'm not
> > aware that licence fees are being paid by the
> > others to one manufacturer and while there may
> > be airworthiness directives from time to time on a particular brand or
> type of
> >
> > parachute there aren't potential fleet wide problems every year.
> >
> > Not a problem until use is mandated as in contests or some clubs.
> >
> > The serious parts of aviation seem to go to lots
> > of trouble to maintain backwards compatibility.
> > i.e. continuing use of pressure altitude instead
> > of GPS altitude, Mode A transponders are
> > compatible with Mode C and mode S and ADSB co-exists with these on the
> same
> >
> > frequencies. Except in the USA where the
> > potential congestion means they have gone to
> > 978Mhz for ADSB for small aircraft and maintained
> > the Extended squitter transponder 1090 Mhz use
> > for large aircraft. That means ground stations

Re: [Aus-soaring] Flarm Update

[Laurie Simpkins]

Hi,
 Just attempted to updated my Swiss Flarm this weekend and turned it into an 
expensive paperweight.  Fortunately two well known members of WGC ( thanks 
again) pooled their combined knowledge and many hours later it became a semi 
useful part of the airframe again. Was about to scrap all electronics and 
install my cosim vario and make my own beeping noises???
It will be a sad day IMHO when we mandate any form of electronic device for all 
gliders as standard equipment. I appreciate their use for gliders and tugs ( I 
used to tow ) in comps etc but as the owner of some vintage gliders ( including 
my open cirrus) i challenge their relevance in all parts of our sport.  
I still believe we could help ourselves more by  encouraging more anti 
collision marking ( read all the arguments) and keeping our heads out of the 
cockpit where they belong. 
Before you crucify me ( as happens occasionally here) please justify your 
comments with why you think i need a Flarm or equivalent in a vintage or 
training aircraft mostly operating in the CTAF. Soon we will be asked these 
questions as a body and i hope we answer wisely.
I say again i support and understand the relevance in a comp situation for 
devices likes Flarms however we  will need to make future decisions and rules 
for all the gliding community.
Currently i probably couldn't operate at some local clubs due to an insistence 
an Flarms for all aircraft???
 
cheers
Laurie
 
GMO,GDW,GEF,GHJ,GTG 
 

 
> From: aus-soaring-requ...@lists.internode.on.net
> Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 138, Issue 25
> To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 21:22:52 +1030
> 
> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to
>   aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>   http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>   aus-soaring-requ...@lists.internode.on.net
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>   aus-soaring-ow...@lists.internode.on.net
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>1. Re: FLARM update (Mike Borgelt)
>2. Easter Comp 2015 cancelled (Erich Wittstock)
>3. Re: Easter Comp 2015 cancelled (Ian Downes)
> 
> 
> --------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 11:47:29 +1000
> From: Mike Borgelt 
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM update
> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
>   
> Message-ID: <77bbc2$v9j...@ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
> 
> As a standalone device a Flarm is merely an expensive GPS data source.
> 
> Flarm is a *system* and requires other devices 
> and compatibility between devices to function. 
> The usefulness also degrades rapidly as the 
> proportion of potential targets either is not 
> equipped or the unit isn't working or is non compatible.
> 
> Analogies with parachutes aren't useful. There 
> are many parachute manufacturers and I'm not 
> aware that licence fees are being paid by the 
> others to one manufacturer  and while there may 
> be airworthiness directives from time to time on a particular brand or type of
> 
> parachute there aren't potential fleet wide problems every year.
> 
> Not a problem until use is mandated  as in contests or some clubs.
> 
> The serious parts of aviation seem to go to lots 
> of trouble to maintain backwards compatibility. 
> i.e. continuing use of pressure altitude instead 
> of GPS altitude, Mode A transponders are 
> compatible with Mode C and mode S and ADSB co-exists with these on the same
> 
> frequencies. Except in the USA where the 
> potential congestion means they have gone to 
> 978Mhz for ADSB for small aircraft and maintained 
> the Extended squitter transponder 1090 Mhz use 
> for large aircraft. That means ground stations 
> and being in range of one for the two
> 
> sets of users to know about each other. Wonderful!
> 
> TCAS as used in airliners also has the feature 
> that the system logic is known to the users and users are trained in it.
> 
> A couple of years ago I analysed a mid air 
> between two gliders in Austria. Both Flarm 
> equipped and both Flarms were working. The pilots 
> frantically scanned and still failed to see each 
> other whereupon one turned left  - right across 
> the other glider's flightpath and the
> 
> collision occurred. Otherwise they'd have missed. 
>

Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM update

[Mike Borgelt]

As a standalone device a Flarm is merely an expensive GPS data source.

Flarm is a *system* and requires other devices 
and compatibility between devices to function. 
The usefulness also degrades rapidly as the 
proportion of potential targets either is not 
equipped or the unit isn't working or is non compatible.


Analogies with parachutes aren't useful. There 
are many parachute manufacturers and I'm not 
aware that licence fees are being paid by the 
others to one manufacturer  and while there may 
be airworthiness directives from time to time on a particular brand or type of


parachute there aren't potential fleet wide problems every year.

Not a problem until use is mandated  as in contests or some clubs.

The serious parts of aviation seem to go to lots 
of trouble to maintain backwards compatibility. 
i.e. continuing use of pressure altitude instead 
of GPS altitude, Mode A transponders are 
compatible with Mode C and mode S and ADSB co-exists with these on the same


frequencies. Except in the USA where the 
potential congestion means they have gone to 
978Mhz for ADSB for small aircraft and maintained 
the Extended squitter transponder 1090 Mhz use 
for large aircraft. That means ground stations 
and being in range of one for the two


sets of users to know about each other. Wonderful!

TCAS as used in airliners also has the feature 
that the system logic is known to the users and users are trained in it.


A couple of years ago I analysed a mid air 
between two gliders in Austria. Both Flarm 
equipped and both Flarms were working. The pilots 
frantically scanned and still failed to see each 
other whereupon one turned left  - right across 
the other glider's flightpath and the


collision occurred. Otherwise they'd have missed. 
Fortunately both managed to land safely.


Mike





At 10:56 AM 16/03/2015, you wrote:

Hi Tim,
As you have reminded many in the past, - this is 
a Gliding Forum. Keep the politics and political comments out of it.

Glenn


On 14/03/2015 8:32 PM, Tim Shirley wrote:

Hi all,

Flarms are standalone devices.  They won't stop 
working tomorrow, because there is nothing to 
stop them working.  A Flarm on V5 will see a 
Flarm on V5 just the same for ever, so it is 
probably better for the upgrade at a club, or 
in an area where gliders often fly together, to 
be co-ordinated.  Making an instant change to 
your own Flarm might simply disable yours :)


Flarm is being 100% consistent in its policy, 
and if that is irresponsible well then more 
irresponsibility from Tony Abbott would be good 
(if that is possible).  They have NEVER 
guaranteed that a major version upgrade is 
backward compatible, in fact they have always 
said that any backward compatibility between 
major versions is coincidental.  I make no 
comment on the reasons or the necessity for this policy.


There's nothing wrong with a Flarm, except for 
the far too high expectations we have of it.


Just look out the window - no version changes 
required but make sure your specs are up to spec.


Cheers

Tim Shirley

tra dire é fare c' é mezzo il mare
On 14/03/2015 6:54 PM, Matthew Scutter wrote:

FYI:
FLARM has now published it's latest update - v6.
It's available here: 
http://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/


The protocols in the current version (v5) and 
new version (v6) are supposedly totally 
incompatible, so please update your FLARMs 
before next flight or you won't be able to see pilots with the other version.


 I think it's very 
irresponsible of FLARM to publish a backwards 
incompatible upgrade like this. I am glad I am 
not flying in the Alps this weekend. 




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Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM update

[Glenn McLean]

Hi Tim,
As you have reminded many in the past, - this is a Gliding Forum. Keep 
the politics and political comments out of it.

Glenn


On 14/03/2015 8:32 PM, Tim Shirley wrote:

Hi all,

Flarms are standalone devices.  They won't stop working tomorrow, 
because there is nothing to stop them working.  A Flarm on V5 will see 
a Flarm on V5 just the same for ever, so it is probably better for the 
upgrade at a club, or in an area where gliders often fly together, to 
be co-ordinated.  Making an instant change to your own Flarm might 
simply disable yours :)


Flarm is being 100% consistent in its policy, and if that is 
irresponsible well then more irresponsibility from Tony Abbott would 
be good (if that is possible).  They have NEVER guaranteed that a 
major version upgrade is backward compatible, in fact they have always 
said that any backward compatibility between major versions is 
coincidental.  I make no comment on the reasons or the necessity for 
this policy.


There's nothing wrong with a Flarm, except for the far too high 
expectations we have of it.


Just look out the window - no version changes required but make sure 
your specs are up to spec.


Cheers

/Tim Shirley/

/tra dire é fare c' é mezzo il mare/

On 14/03/2015 6:54 PM, Matthew Scutter wrote:

FYI:
FLARM has now published it's latest update - v6.
It's available here: http://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/

The protocols in the current version (v5) and new version (v6) are 
supposedly totally incompatible, so please update your FLARMs before 
next flight or you won't be able to see pilots with the other version.


 I think it's very irresponsible of FLARM to publish 
a backwards incompatible upgrade like this. I am glad I am not flying 
in the Alps this weekend. 



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Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM update

[Luke O'Donnell]

Something that may not have been considered, is that Stealth mode for
flarms isn't 100% bulletproof. My understanding is that stealth mode is
basically a flag in the RF protocol that tells other flarms that it wants
to be treated as a stealth mode aircraft. This then relies on the receiving
flarm to implement the stealth mode rules, when transmitting the data to
the serial port. All the data required for full tracking is still
transmitted by the flarm radio.

A few seconds on Google shows that someone managed to reverse engineer an
earlier version of the RF protocol (which probably hasn't changed much
since) a while back.

The nature of the RF protocol being simplex, means that any encryption they
implement will need pre-shared keys. This means every flarm has the keys
(password) pre-installed. The firmware updates would contain them if they
changed them.

The upshot is that if someone wanted to spend the time and effort, they
could reverse engineer the RF protocol, build a custom flarm receiver unit,
and get full tracking capabilities no matter how the flarms are configured.
There really isn't much the Flarm guys can do to prevent it.

Something to consider including if the rules are changed.

Luke

On 14 March 2015 at 21:12,  wrote:

> There was much discussion at the IGC meeting about proposed changes to
> flarm.
>
> There is a growing discussion about the use of flarm in competitions. Its
> use in safety improvement – alerting pilots of potential conflict, appears
> to be at odds with its use as a tactical tool.
>
> Pilots now have the capacity to obtain data from the flarm signal to
> identify which glider is visible, its height and rate of climb. This causes
> two problems: Firstly, pilots are spending a lot of time staring at their
> flarm screen which reduces time looking out of the window.  Secondly,
> pilots are turning off their flarm so that other pilots cannot see what
> they are doing, so the safety benefit is removed.
>
> The other issue is the increased use of tracking receivers which takes
> flarm data and then uploads this onto a web display. This is providing real
> time data on tracks and location of the various gliders, and many pilots
> are now turning off their flarm to protect their data.
>
> Flarm manufacturers are rolling out a new software version which attempts
> to provide a solution to these issues. The stealth mode is being improved
> to provide better safety features, and to introduce a No tracking setting
> which ensures tracking is only available via official flarm
> receivers/transmitters.
>
> Terry
>
>  Gary Stevenson  wrote:
> > Mike,
> >
> > You are probable right on the mark here.
> >
> > However, in this instance, I have no argument with their approach.
> >
> > The record shows that this device has saved lives (just as parachutes
> have
> > saved lives). Do we begrudge Parachute Manufacturers’ making an honest
> > living from their enterprise?
> >
> > Limiting entry of competition, where possible, has always been a valid
> > business principle.
> >
> > I am almost certain that the guys from (FLARM, Switzerland), monitor this
> > forum. Perhaps they might like to make comment?
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >
> >
> > From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
> > [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike
> > Borgelt
> > Sent: Saturday, 14 March 2015 7:41 PM
> > To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM update
> >
> >
> >
> > At 05:54 PM 14/03/2015, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > FYI:
> > FLARM has now published it's latest update - v6.
> > It's available here:Â http://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/
> >
> > The protocols in the current version (v5) and new version (v6) are
> > supposedly totally incompatible, so please update your FLARMs before next
> > flight or you won't be able to see pilots with the other version.
> >
> >  I think it's very irresponsible of FLARM to publish a
> > backwards incompatible upgrade like this. I am glad I am not flying in
> the
> > Alps this weekend. 
> >
> >
> >
> > I gather it is to prevent competitors from producing compatible hardware
> > without paying royalties to Flarm.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM update

[terrycubley]

There was much discussion at the IGC meeting about proposed changes to flarm. 

There is a growing discussion about the use of flarm in competitions. Its use 
in safety improvement – alerting pilots of potential conflict, appears to be at 
odds with its use as a tactical tool.

Pilots now have the capacity to obtain data from the flarm signal to identify 
which glider is visible, its height and rate of climb. This causes two 
problems: Firstly, pilots are spending a lot of time staring at their flarm 
screen which reduces time looking out of the window.  Secondly, pilots are 
turning off their flarm so that other pilots cannot see what they are doing, so 
the safety benefit is removed.

The other issue is the increased use of tracking receivers which takes flarm 
data and then uploads this onto a web display. This is providing real time data 
on tracks and location of the various gliders, and many pilots are now turning 
off their flarm to protect their data.

Flarm manufacturers are rolling out a new software version which attempts to 
provide a solution to these issues. The stealth mode is being improved to 
provide better safety features, and to introduce a No tracking setting which 
ensures tracking is only available via official flarm receivers/transmitters.

Terry

 Gary Stevenson  wrote: 
> Mike,
> 
> You are probable right on the mark here.
> 
> However, in this instance, I have no argument with their approach.
> 
> The record shows that this device has saved lives (just as parachutes have
> saved lives). Do we begrudge Parachute Manufacturers’ making an honest
> living from their enterprise? 
> 
> Limiting entry of competition, where possible, has always been a valid
> business principle.
> 
> I am almost certain that the guys from (FLARM, Switzerland), monitor this
> forum. Perhaps they might like to make comment?
> 
> Gary 
> 
>  
> 
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike
> Borgelt
> Sent: Saturday, 14 March 2015 7:41 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM update
> 
>  
> 
> At 05:54 PM 14/03/2015, you wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> FYI:
> FLARM has now published it's latest update - v6.
> It's available here:Â http://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/
> 
> The protocols in the current version (v5) and new version (v6) are
> supposedly totally incompatible, so please update your FLARMs before next
> flight or you won't be able to see pilots with the other version.
> 
>  I think it's very irresponsible of FLARM to publish a
> backwards incompatible upgrade like this. I am glad I am not flying in the
> Alps this weekend. 
> 
> 
> 
> I gather it is to prevent competitors from producing compatible hardware
> without paying royalties to Flarm.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 


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Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM update

[Gary Stevenson]

Mike,

You are probable right on the mark here.

However, in this instance, I have no argument with their approach.

The record shows that this device has saved lives (just as parachutes have
saved lives). Do we begrudge Parachute Manufacturers’ making an honest
living from their enterprise? 

Limiting entry of competition, where possible, has always been a valid
business principle.

I am almost certain that the guys from (FLARM, Switzerland), monitor this
forum. Perhaps they might like to make comment?

Gary 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike
Borgelt
Sent: Saturday, 14 March 2015 7:41 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM update

 

At 05:54 PM 14/03/2015, you wrote:



FYI:
FLARM has now published it's latest update - v6.
It's available here:Â http://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/

The protocols in the current version (v5) and new version (v6) are
supposedly totally incompatible, so please update your FLARMs before next
flight or you won't be able to see pilots with the other version.

 I think it's very irresponsible of FLARM to publish a
backwards incompatible upgrade like this. I am glad I am not flying in the
Alps this weekend. 



I gather it is to prevent competitors from producing compatible hardware
without paying royalties to Flarm.

Mike



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Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM update

[Gary Stevenson]

Hi Tim,

In the main,  I enjoy your posts, and often have a quite laugh . Like
the bit about the specs. Unfortunately, with the average age of the Oz
glider pilot being what it is, this is very sound advice, but a good laugh
nevertheless. [BTW my new lenses are just one week old.]

As the sign on the dunny door says; LOOKOUT, LOOKOUT, LOOKOUT.

I agree with you re a club based co-ordinated change. Thanks to Brian Wood
most of the flarms in Grampians Soaring Club fleet, including those in
private gliders were updated today, and two currently absent ships will be
done tomorrow. 

Cheers,

Gary

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Tim Shirley
Sent: Saturday, 14 March 2015 8:32 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM update

 

Hi all,

Flarms are standalone devices.  They won't stop working tomorrow, because
there is nothing to stop them working.  A Flarm on V5 will see a Flarm on V5
just the same for ever, so it is probably better for the upgrade at a club,
or in an area where gliders often fly together, to be co-ordinated.  Making
an instant change to your own Flarm might simply disable yours :)

Flarm is being 100% consistent in its policy, and if that is irresponsible
well then more irresponsibility from Tony Abbott would be good (if that is
possible).  They have NEVER guaranteed that a major version upgrade is
backward compatible, in fact they have always said that any backward
compatibility between major versions is coincidental.  I make no comment on
the reasons or the necessity for this policy. 

There's nothing wrong with a Flarm, except for the far too high expectations
we have of it.  

Just look out the window - no version changes required but make sure your
specs are up to spec.

Cheers

Tim Shirley

tra dire é fare c' é mezzo il mare

On 14/03/2015 6:54 PM, Matthew Scutter wrote:

FYI: 

FLARM has now published it's latest update - v6.

It's available here: http://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/

 

The protocols in the current version (v5) and new version (v6) are
supposedly totally incompatible, so please update your FLARMs before next
flight or you won't be able to see pilots with the other version.

 

 I think it's very irresponsible of FLARM to publish a
backwards incompatible upgrade like this. I am glad I am not flying in the
Alps this weekend. 






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Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM update

[Matthew Scutter]

On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 8:32 PM, Tim Shirley 
wrote:
>
> Flarms are standalone devices.  They won't stop working tomorrow, because
> there is nothing to stop them working.
>
No, but they will stop working on March 31st, if you're still running v5.
And every subsequent year on subsequent versions.


> A Flarm on V5 will see a Flarm on V5 just the same for ever, so it is
> probably better for the upgrade at a club, or in an area where gliders
> often fly together, to be co-ordinated.  Making an instant change to your
> own Flarm might simply disable yours :)
>
Right, and the only rational time to upgrade is immediately - you don't
know who's already upgraded around you. I see gliders from other clubs,
sometimes other states almost every weekend.


> Flarm is being 100% consistent in its policy, and if that is irresponsible
> well then more irresponsibility from Tony Abbott would be good (if that is
> possible).  They have NEVER guaranteed that a major version upgrade is
> backward compatible, in fact they have always said that any backward
> compatibility between major versions is coincidental.  I make no comment on
> the reasons or the necessity for this policy.
>
> I do not understand what you mean by 100% consistent in it's policy. Which
policy?
Maybe they have some enormous safety improvements in the new firmware that
justifies the suboptimal functionality for the next fortnight. If so I
don't think it's been adequately justified to us, the users.

There's nothing wrong with a Flarm, except for the far too high
> expectations we have of it.
>
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a premium priced piece of
technology explicitly designed to prevent collisions to be potentially
unable to do so for weeks of the year.

Just look out the window - no version changes required but make sure your
> specs are up to spec.
>
Fortunately I can still walk when my car is broken too.
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Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM update

[Tim Shirley]

Hi all,

Flarms are standalone devices.  They won't stop working tomorrow, 
because there is nothing to stop them working.  A Flarm on V5 will see a 
Flarm on V5 just the same for ever, so it is probably better for the 
upgrade at a club, or in an area where gliders often fly together, to be 
co-ordinated.  Making an instant change to your own Flarm might simply 
disable yours :)


Flarm is being 100% consistent in its policy, and if that is 
irresponsible well then more irresponsibility from Tony Abbott would be 
good (if that is possible).  They have NEVER guaranteed that a major 
version upgrade is backward compatible, in fact they have always said 
that any backward compatibility between major versions is coincidental.  
I make no comment on the reasons or the necessity for this policy.


There's nothing wrong with a Flarm, except for the far too high 
expectations we have of it.


Just look out the window - no version changes required but make sure 
your specs are up to spec.


Cheers

/Tim Shirley/

/tra dire é fare c' é mezzo il mare/

On 14/03/2015 6:54 PM, Matthew Scutter wrote:

FYI:
FLARM has now published it's latest update - v6.
It's available here: http://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/

The protocols in the current version (v5) and new version (v6) are 
supposedly totally incompatible, so please update your FLARMs before 
next flight or you won't be able to see pilots with the other version.


 I think it's very irresponsible of FLARM to publish 
a backwards incompatible upgrade like this. I am glad I am not flying 
in the Alps this weekend. 



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Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM update

[Mike Borgelt]

At 05:54 PM 14/03/2015, you wrote:

FYI:
FLARM has now published it's latest update - v6.
It's available here:Â 
http://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/


The protocols in the current version (v5) and 
new version (v6) are supposedly totally 
incompatible, so please update your FLARMs 
before next flight or you won't be able to see pilots with the other version.


 I think it's very 
irresponsible of FLARM to publish a backwards 
incompatible upgrade like this. I am glad I am 
not flying in the Alps this weekend. 



I gather it is to prevent competitors from 
producing compatible hardware without paying royalties to Flarm.


Mike


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[Aus-soaring] FLARM update

[Matthew Scutter]

FYI:
FLARM has now published it's latest update - v6.
It's available here: http://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/

The protocols in the current version (v5) and new version (v6) are
supposedly totally incompatible, so please update your FLARMs before next
flight or you won't be able to see pilots with the other version.

 I think it's very irresponsible of FLARM to publish a
backwards incompatible upgrade like this. I am glad I am not flying in the
Alps this weekend. 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] -Flarm update

[Robert Moore]

Nigel, when may your FLARM's become IGC approved for minor flights.

At 07:05 AM 19/08/2008, you wrote:

Hi all,

Version 4.04 is now available from the flarm 
website. Please check the update notes to see if 
you need to update, I recommend doing these 
updates anyway. Make sure you check that the 
area is manually set to Australia 921 instead of auto.


Cheers

Nigel




o  Nigel Andrews– Managing Director

- PO BOX 120, Boonah, Queensland Australia 4310
( INT+(617) 546356704 +(617)54635695 * 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

z http://www.rf-developments.com
 Skype - rv7pilot

RF Developments Pty Ltd

"A Queensland Company devoted to Research and 
Development in aviation electronics"


**DISCLAIMER

The information contained in the above e-mail 
message or messages (which includes any 
attachments) is confidential and may be legally 
privileged. It is intended only for the use of 
the person or entity to which it is addressed. 
If you are not the addressee any form of 
disclosure, copying, modification, distribution 
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Regards

Rob Moore
08 82588026 home
0412 055 888 mobile


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[Aus-soaring] -Flarm update

[Nigel Andrews]

Hi all,

 

Version 4.04 is now available from the flarm website. Please check the
update notes to see if you need to update, I recommend doing these updates
anyway. Make sure you check that the area is manually set to Australia 921
instead of auto.

 

Cheers

 

Nigel

 

 

 

 

*  Nigel Andrews- Managing Director

 

* PO BOX 120, Boonah, Queensland Australia 4310
* INT+(617) 54635670* +(617)54635695 *
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

* http://www.rf-developments.com

 Skype - rv7pilot

 

RF Developments Pty Ltd

 

"A Queensland Company devoted to Research and Development in aviation
electronics" 

 

**DISCLAIMER

 

The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which
includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. It
is intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is
addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of disclosure, copying,
modification, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on the
information is unauthorised. If you received this communication in error,
please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer system
network. 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Flarm Update

[nandrews]

Yes, same registration, it generates an email list from the details entered.

 

Cheers

 

Nigel

 

 

 

*  Nigel Andrews- Managing Director

 

* PO BOX 120, Boonah, Queensland Australia 4310
* INT+(617) 54635670* +(617)54635695 *
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

* http://www.rf-developments.com

 

RF Developments Pty Ltd

 

"A Queensland Company devoted to Research and Development in aviation
electronics" 

 

**DISCLAIMER

 

The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which
includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. It
is intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is
addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of disclosure, copying,
modification, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on the
information is unauthorised. If you received this communication in error,
please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer system
network. 

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoff Kidd
Sent: Thursday, 24 January 2008 9:22 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Flarm Update

 

Ben/Nigel

 

Have done as requested but there appears to be nothing specific on the site
re registration as a Flarm owner, just to register for the shop.

 

Is that the right place?

 

Regards

 

 

- Original Message - 

From: Ben Jones <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  

To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net 

Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 9:45 AM

Subject: [Aus-soaring] Flarm Update

 

This message is posted on behalf of Nigel

 

From: nandrews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, 24 January 2008 6:38 AM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: -flarm update

Hi all,

This week has been quite busy with the visiting flarm people from Flarm
Technology; they have been flying at Boonah testing the mandatory update due
late February. Today will be another day of testing. In preparation for the
release and future notifications could you please register your details on
our site at www.rf-developments.com using our online registration feature.
This then gives us a contact database of flarm users so we can automate
notification and any other changes that need attention.

 

Please pass on this request to others who may not be on this discussion
group.

 

Thanks

 

Nigel

 

*  Nigel Andrews- 

 * PO BOX 120, Boonah, Queensland Australia 4310
* INT+(617) 54635670* +(617)54635695 * [EMAIL PROTECTED]

* http://www.rf-developments.com

 RF Developments Pty Ltd

 "A Queensland Company devoted to Research and Development in aviation
electronics" 

 


  _  


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Flarm Update

[Geoff Kidd]

Ben/Nigel

Have done as requested but there appears to be nothing specific on the site re 
registration as a Flarm owner, just to register for the shop.

Is that the right place?

Regards


  - Original Message - 
  From: Ben Jones 
  To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net 
  Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 9:45 AM
  Subject: [Aus-soaring] Flarm Update


  This message is posted on behalf of Nigel



  From: nandrews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Thursday, 24 January 2008 6:38 AM
  To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
  Subject: -flarm update

   Hi all,

   This week has been quite busy with the visiting flarm people from Flarm 
Technology; they have been flying at Boonah testing the mandatory update due 
late February. Today will be another day of testing. In preparation for the 
release and future notifications could you please register your details on our 
site at www.rf-developments.com using our online registration feature. This 
then gives us a contact database of flarm users so we can automate notification 
and any other changes that need attention.

   

  Please pass on this request to others who may not be on this discussion group.

   

  Thanks

   

  Nigel

   

  o  Nigel Andrews- 

   - PO BOX 120, Boonah, Queensland Australia 4310
  ( INT+(617) 546356704 +(617)54635695 * [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  z http://www.rf-developments.com

   RF Developments Pty Ltd

   "A Queensland Company devoted to Research and Development in aviation 
electronics" 

   



--


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[Aus-soaring] Flarm Update

[Ben Jones]

This message is posted on behalf of Nigel



From: nandrews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, 24 January 2008 6:38 AM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: -flarm update

 Hi all,

 This week has been quite busy with the visiting flarm people from Flarm 
Technology; they have been flying at Boonah testing the mandatory update due 
late February. Today will be another day of testing. In preparation for the 
release and future notifications could you please register your details on our 
site at www.rf-developments.com using our online registration feature. This 
then gives us a contact database of flarm users so we can automate notification 
and any other changes that need attention.

 

Please pass on this request to others who may not be on this discussion group.

 

Thanks

 

Nigel

 

o  Nigel Andrews- 

 - PO BOX 120, Boonah, Queensland Australia 4310
( INT+(617) 546356704 +(617)54635695 * [EMAIL PROTECTED]

z http://www.rf-developments.com

 RF Developments Pty Ltd

 "A Queensland Company devoted to Research and Development in aviation 
electronics" 

 
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[Aus-soaring] Flarm update V3.0.8

[nandrews]

Hi All,

 

A non critical update is available which has fixed a bug in the OLC side, no
need to update if you are not using it for the OLC but check that you have
3.0.7 installed as at a recent comp some still had 3.0.2!

 

http://www.flarm.com/support/updates/index_en.html

 

Use the update if you already have it on your P.C, use the full installation
if you have no previous versions installed.

 

Cheers

 

Nigel

 

 

 

RF Developments Pty Ltd

 

"A Queensland Company devoted to Research and Development in aviation
electronics" 

 

Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

 

See our new flarm products like our 57mm display at Web
www.rf-developments.com  

 

Ph: (61) 7 54635670 Fax: (61) 7 54635695

 

**DISCLAIMER

 

The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which
includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. It
is intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is
addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of disclosure, copying,
modification, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on the
information is unauthorised. If you received this communication in error,
please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer system
network. 

 

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