Re: [Ayatana] why compiz in place of mutter

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 15:37, balint...@gmail.com wrote:

> You can not be serious. Im not fan of moving away from the Gnome project
> at all, but sticking with compiz was one of the best descisions made in
> ubuntu so far.


For example the "Cube" was an outstanding feature. People used to come to
my house to watch me showcasing it.

Compiz is not yet as mature as Metacity was at it's finest times, but it
contains visionary ideas ans pioneering thought, already implemented well
beyond "proof of concept".


> Unity is noticeably MUCH faster even on my low-spec netbook. Mutter uses
> 20% of cpu with falf the frame rate on it, while Compiz eats about 5%. Who
> cares about memory consumption on a software where speed matters most?


 What matters is appliance, and Unity is taking Ubuntu there. With Compiz
under the hood, Unity is beginning to mature quite rapidly, imo.
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Re: [Ayatana] Unity improvement for vision loss people

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 08:12, Jeremy Bicha  wrote:

> On 11 January 2012 18:27, frederik.nn...@gmail.com
>  wrote:
>
> > symbolic icons, not desaturated corporate branding icons.
>
> It is a very bad idea for Canonical to tweak the Firefox logo, and
> Mozilla is more of a non-profit than an "evil corporation". That
> Firefox's logo is nearly unrecognizable in Mint 12 is not a good
> thing. I don't believe Ubuntu can legally modify the Skype
> logo/trademarks anyway, but it's a bad idea so let's not even consider
> it.
>

agreed.
that's why we have symbolic icons which represent a functionality.
The functionality can then be executed by a branded app.
Think of the symbolic icon as a wrapper. That's foundation, platform,
Unity, rather than "app".
So to be more specific, a functionality (application) maps to an executor:

www-browser - [firefox|epiphany|chromium|opera|...]
instant-messenger - [empathy|pidgin|ekiga|skype|trillian|...]
file-manager - [thunar|dolphin|marlin|nautilus|mc]

this way the last used "app" will be opened for the respective
functionality by "default", when the symbol representing the functionality
is clicked.
and: freedom of choice remains untampered with. branding and logo
copyrights are unharmed.
to think "free" and "open" doesn't mean we should allow the chaos from the
old notification area to bloom in the unity launcher, now that we put an
end to it with symbolic indicator menus.



> > does canonical want app developers to develop their UI or does Ayatana
> aim at developing it themselves?
>
> Ubuntu developers maintain the platform or foundation including Unity;
> Ubuntu app developers write cool programs that can run on Ubuntu. And
> of course, not all Ubuntu developers are part of Canonical or the
> Design team.
>
> > remains the wording problem in the community.. what is "app" and is "app"
> > different from "application"? and what does "application" mean?
>
> I think you like philosophical rabbit trails. "App" is a nice, current
> buzzword for a computer program, as you might install from a
> smartphone app store.
>

my philosophical rabbit trail, explained:
In today's "buzzy" language, stuff is not defined precisely.
If you want to define a system interface on the other hand, you will need a
precise-to-the-core language to do this.
If the wording used to define the system is not precise, the system's
architecture will reflect this imprecision on all structural levels.
Imprecision is an advantage in many situations, especially where you need
randomness and entropy.
It should be used deliberately, when defining an architecture, which will
be used by millions of people for many hours of their lives.

"app" != "application"; application != unequal functionality
symbolic icon maps to functionality
branding icon maps to "executing implementation"


> Anyway, back to the original topic. I'm glad that the original poster
> was able to set up Ubuntu relatively easily with larger, more visible
> icons. I agree that the launcher arrows are not obvious enough; maybe
> the designers will try to make them better in the coming weeks.


i'm curious to find out what that will feel like..
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Re: [Ayatana] Unity improvement for vision loss people

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

ok, "default app" is a problematic concept.

On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 01:42, Ian Santopietro  wrote:

> I see.
>
> While this has merit, I don't think it's entirely relevant. What if I
> have two web browsers on my launcher? What if I don't have a default
> specified. The concept of differentiating an app as default is broken.
> There shouldn't be a default web browser, since it really doesn't
> matter.


_wwwbrowser_ as such is an application. It is first of all not a
manufacturer or a product, but an application.
The fact that one web-browser sucks so bad that i need 3 to feel safe is
the problem here, from my point of view.

The feature "freedom of choice" remains unaffected by this suggestion.

Opening a file from the file browser should follow the last
> used app.
>

remains the wording problem in the community.. what is "app" and is "app"
different from "application"? and what does "application" mean?
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Re: [Ayatana] Unity improvement for vision loss people

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 00:48, Ian Santopietro  wrote:

> This seems more like a theme question then, rather than a UI one. A
> custom theme is better suited to solving the issue in your particular
> case.
>

Theming is an excellent approach towards gaining something from this topic,
yes.
It's just that the consumer in me expects to find a theme to be available
and only a few clicks away.. not that i'd have to create it myself.

Removing all but one color from an icon by default is a bad idea,
> unless the icon is supposed to be that way. Even these exceptions
> should be kept to a minimum. The issue that arises is that there are
> two main characteristics people use when quickly identifying an icon:
> color and shape. If we make all the icons one color, then this
> distinction is lost, and we must rely on shape alone, which isn't idea
> for many people. This is the exact inverse of a theme like faenza,
> where all the icons are the same shape (you lose the differences in
> shape, then you only have color left).
>

perhaps my wording was ambiguous or unclear, i mean to suggest the
introduction of symbols instead of branding icons into the launcher.
does canonical want app developers to develop their UI or does Ayatana aim
at developing it themselves?
I think Ayatana should come up with symbols for the Unity UI, including
launcher SYMBOLS for default webbrowser, default email UI, default IM UI
and default file management UI.

Ayatana aka Canonical also came up with symbols for workspace switcher,
trash and Dash, so it is not far fetched to do the same for default apps
such as firefox and thunderbird, empathy and totem, gnome-terminal,
gnome-calculator, [skype,] gnome-terminal and USC.

symbolic icons, not desaturated corporate branding icons.


>
> I will admit that monochrome icon sets have their artistic merits, but
> functionally, they're a nightmare. Form is nice, but not at the sake
> of function.
>
> Besides, the only other major OS that uses Monochrome app icons is
> Windows Phone 7, and it's not particularly popular with consumers.
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 16:12, frederik.nn...@gmail.com
>  wrote:
> > On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 23:57, Ian Santopietro  wrote:
> >>
> >> The indicators work well monochrome because they were designed from
> >> the start to be Monochrome, and include only simple shapes and
> >> outlines. Regular icons do not work this way.
> >>
> >> Perhaps an option to desaturate the launcher icons, or a Unity plugin
> >> if we get a plugin framework. But using this as default is a huge step
> >> backward in usability for most people, particularly those with vision
> >> loss, as the icons will blend into the launcher.
> >
> >
> > "No, I disagree!
> >
> > Some OS designers or theme designers may disagree with this basic
> premise.
> > Or artists may not have time to produce symbolic variations of all the
> icons
> > for which software developers desire them. Therefore, there should be a
> > mechanism for developers to request a symbolic variation of an icon, such
> > that it will gracefully fall back to the non-symbolic equivalent if —
> > whether intentionally or unintentionally — no symbolic variation has been
> > provided."
> >
> >
> > (from http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/SymbolicIcons )
>
>
>
> --
> Ian Santopietro
>
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> "Eala Earendel enlga beorohtast
>  Ofer middangeard monnum sended"
>
> Pa gur yv y porthaur?
>
> Public GPG key (RSA):
>
> http://keyserver.ubuntu.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x412F52DB1BBF1234
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Unity improvement for vision loss people

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 23:57, Ian Santopietro  wrote:

> The indicators work well monochrome because they were designed from
> the start to be Monochrome, and include only simple shapes and
> outlines. Regular icons do not work this way.
>
> Perhaps an option to desaturate the launcher icons, or a Unity plugin
> if we get a plugin framework. But using this as default is a huge step
> backward in usability for most people, particularly those with vision
> loss, as the icons will blend into the launcher.
>

"No, I disagree!

Some OS designers or theme designers may disagree with this basic premise.
Or artists may not have time to produce symbolic variations of all the
icons for which software developers desire them. Therefore, there should be
a mechanism for developers to request a symbolic variation of an icon, such
that it will gracefully fall back to the non-symbolic equivalent if —
whether intentionally or unintentionally — no symbolic variation has been
provided."


(from http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/SymbolicIcons )
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Re: [Ayatana] Unity improvement for vision loss people

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

hi Ian ;)

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 01:40, Ian Santopietro  wrote:

> Desaturating inactive applications in the launcher is a bad idea. It
> removes the ability to recognize different icons based on color. That would
> leave only shape, which isn't enough on it's own, particularly if the
> current icon set has many similar icons (like Faenza).
>

you're correct, it is a radical approach to begin with.
The indicator menu's symbolic icons make it clear to us that if a symbol
conveys a purpose, it does not need flashy colors to make that clear to the
user.
On the contrary.
All the color in the launcher is reason enough for me to feel ashamed for
each time it pops out of the left screen corner into visibility.

My approach is radical, and that is probably the reason why it will not fit
so well into this conversation. Nevertheless i'd like to share it, because
it combines different methods of accessibility enhancement, which at the
same time make usability better, too, and recude visual clutter.

I gave the icons in the launcher maximum size via CCSM, because i don't
like aiming with mice and trackpads, and i must say that it felt more
natural and less clutterful from the first moment on, no question. I did
this on every device that i operate a desktop account on, and i don't feel
at home without it anymore.
Backligh always toggles, absolutely!
Naturally i had to remove all but the really necessary icons from the
launcher, especially with the limited space a netbook has to offer on the
vertical axis. Fortunately this forced me into a well organized usage of
space, which turned out to be quite practical, compared to how cluttered
the launcher was before that.

the prettiest order i had in the launcher was with a tailored icon set that
had monochrome symbolic icons for most of the usual apps.
i don't think it should be the ordinary user's use case to have different
browsers in their launcher, which would get them confused when placed next
to each other in monochrome look. this sounds more like a highly
specialized case to me, and the users i know who are that specialized know
well how to remedy such a problem.
For this special case, i'd rather include an exception, such as "keep
saturated always", instead of imposing the exception onto the main audience.
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Re: [Ayatana] Unity improvement for vision loss people

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

like i often tell friends and others:

imo, a11y and usability are one and the same thing, when we're talking
about basic functionality.

That is why design should be based on a solid semantic foundation:
this way, porting whatever event or state notification to the human
sense realms (ayatana) becomes a trivial task of translation.

The little arrows are of little semantic value, they could be
interpreted as a plentitude of things.

To display an application in the launcher in full color regardless
whether it is currently active or dormant is in itself already a
misleading way of presenting an app. Ccsm offers turning off backlight
for inactive apps.

This is better, but still not enough from a semantic point of view:
i'm still indicating something that isn't there (loaded).

Apps that are inactive should be monochrome in the launcher. If
possible, their "button" should display a symbolic icon instead of a
rich logo. Semantic design is a11y design, but to get that message
across to everyone, i'd probably have to prove the concept first, and
i'm afraid i'm not up to the challenge quite yet.

On 2012-01-06, Matt Wheeler  wrote:
> On 6 January 2012 01:31, Bartosz  wrote:
>> Hi.
>>
>> My friend has a big vision impairment.
>> In every day computer usage he is using Windows 7 with big fonts. He is
>> using computer for checking the mail (thunderbird), web browsing
>> (firefox), and watching the movies (vlc player)
>>
>> I convinced him to test the Ubuntu for two weeks, and tell me his
>> impressions.
>>
>> I installed Ubuntu 10.10. After enable some accessibility and appearance
>> set-up, the Ubuntu works like the charm. My friend was very positive
>> surprised with the Ubuntu.
>
> Great! :)
>
>> Most annoying problem he found:
>> - readability of the currently opened applications in launcher - after
>> open the new applications he has problems with notice, which  application
>> are already opened. There is only small arrow on the left side of icon. In
>> Windows 7 there is no such problem. Is is possible to implement some more
>> readable look?
>> -  readability of the currently active application in launcher - Currently
>> there is small arrow on the right side of icon. Is it possible to do it
>> more readable?
>
> It's possible to change the appearance of running apps in the launcher
> by installing compizconfig-settings-manager and tweaking the settings
> in the unity plugin. Perhaps some changes to the launcher's appearance
> should be made automatically when choosing low, high or high/inverse
> contrast settings, or an option added to the Universal Access settings
> (I'm not sure tying it to the contrast option quite fits... anyone?)
>
>> With this problem solved, the productivity of vision loss with ubuntu will
>> be much higher.
>>
>> What do you think about his ideas?
>> Do you think it is possible to change this looks in Unuty?
>
> It's possible for you do do this for your friend right away, we just
> need to decide whether we should be doing this by default, and also
> whether the current configuration options for the launcher are good
> enough from an accessibility point of view. I'm not in any way an
> accessibility expert so someone who is should probably look at what
> we've got and comment here :)
>
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> Matt Wheeler
> m...@funkyhat.org
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Will Modal-Dialog windows fix this problem with Unity?

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 13:35, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote on 10/12/11 18:07:
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 18:40, nick rundy  >>
> >> How can I minimize a window when a modal-dialog has taken over
> >> the focus of the window? Right clicking the Update Manager icon
> >> in the Launcher does not give a minimize option either.
> >
> >> Anyone consider this a problem with the Unity design?
>
>
> No, that would be a bug in Compiz.
>
> > a window should change its shape and design, it should morph,
> > rather than spawn new little focus stealing "dialog" boxes. MPT had
> > a design for that iirc, morphing windows, especially pertaining to
> > update-manager. I don't know where all that good work went, but it
> > surely didn't land in 11.10, unfortunately. did it?
> >
> > ...
>
>
> My design for Update Manager does use a morphing window.
> <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareUpdates#Installing>
>
> The code "didn't land in 11.10" because it doesn't exist yet. :-) I
> would be delighted if anyone volunteered to implement even a small bit
> of that design. (I've specified it as lots of independent chunks, to
> make this easier.)
>
At the moment, the most challenging part of your spec would be the visual
morphing animation to be specific.
Which exact chunk would you designate as chunk #1, in case someone decides
to make the first step here?
Perhaps there's an effective way of taking the edge off here, without
reducing the effect of your concept.


However, while that would solve Nick's problem for Update Manager in
> particular, it would not solve the problem in general. For example,
> when you save a document for the first time, the document window
> shouldn't morph into a Save dialog. That would change too much of the
> screen at once (visual instability), and it would hide information
> that you needed for deciding the document's name.
>

what information would that be?


>
> Instead, you should be able to minimize a window regardless of whether
> it has a dialog modal to it.
>

yes, ..able to minimize.. or to hide.
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Re: [Ayatana] Will Modal-Dialog windows fix this problem with Unity?

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 18:40, nick rundy  wrote:

>  To help explain this problem I'm going to list an example case:
>
> - I open Update Manager and maximize the window
> -I click Install and a small window appears "on top of" the maximized
> window and displays the installation status as it progresses.
>
> -The updates are going to take a while to complete so I'd like to minimize
> the update manager window and gain visual access to my Desktop. My attempt
> to "get rid" of the update manager window is where the problem lies:
>
> -The "small modal-dialog window" does not have a "minimize" button in the
> title bar and when I move the mouse to the upper left corner to access the
> buttons for the Maximized update manager window the buttons are not
> accessible because it can't gain focus because all the focus is on the
> small modal-dialog window. I press Alt+F9 in an attempt to minimize the TWO
> update manager windows (i.e., the maximized and small "modal-dialog"
> window) but nothing happens.
>
> How can I minimize a window when a modal-dialog has taken over the focus
> of the window? Right clicking the Update Manager icon in the Launcher does
> not give a minimize option either.
>
> Anyone consider this a problem with the Unity design?
>

a window should change its shape and design, it should morph, rather than
spawn new little focus stealing "dialog" boxes.
MPT had a design for that iirc, morphing windows, especially pertaining to
update-manager. I don't know where all that good work went, but it surely
didn't land in 11.10, unfortunately. did it?
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Re: [Ayatana] Global Menu mockups for Unity

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 19:00, Matt Richardson <
m.richardson.1...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

> Couldn't you solve the draggable area problem by allowing users to move
> the window by dragging from anywhere on the title bar, including a menu
> item.
>

at some point it was mentioned that all "grey" areas in an application
window should be draggable areas.
this would make a lot of sense to me..


> Menus could show on release to prevent them from showing when a user drags
> the window.


indicator menus are aim-click-drag-release.
this includes indicator-appmenu

so no, show on release is not a solution, so i think.
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Re: [Ayatana] Some thoughts about the home lens

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 16:06, Christian Rupp  wrote:

>  Am 04.12.2011 15:59, schrieb frederik.nn...@gmail.com:
>
> On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 15:17, Christian Rupp  wrote:
>
>>  Am 04.12.2011 13:13, schrieb frederik.nn...@gmail.com:
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 13:07, Christian Rupp  wrote:
>>
>>> I think that we should use the space for something more informative than
>>> the 8 icons...
>>> http://ubuntuone.com/5nAsW7hEmAs6jvyiq8Z6on
>>
>>
>>  like a widget space, rght?
>> this could be easily achieved by using the Launcher API in the Dash.
>> there would be enough space for all high-interest statuses such as email,
>> instant messaging & call services, progress on system update or
>> filetransfer or filedownloads and a visual way of indicating, how many
>> windows the browser has open.
>>
>>  Yeah right...
>> Plus more such as weather or a calender.
>>
>
>  weather i don't know, i'd like it, personally, but some might not.
> But Calendar, yes, calendar is one important feature that has yet to be
> properly implemented in the free Desktop Environment.
> at least a live indication of the next appointment today and a proper date
> showing the  day of the week.
>
> Of course you can set everything as you like. In my opinion in the USC a
> widget section and their you can install and remove them as you like...
>
> Pre-installed I would like to see
>  -Calender
>  -Facebook/Twitter/...
>  -Email
>  -Weather
>  -events or things to do for the next week
>  -Music
>  -news (based on google? news or a local service?)
>

i could agree with
* calendar
* email
* todo
* weather
* player controls (as in sound menu)
   perhaps a bit richer than the ones in sound-menu
   for movie playback, a live preview would make sense above the controls
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Re: [Ayatana] Some thoughts about the home lens

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 15:17, Christian Rupp  wrote:

>  Am 04.12.2011 13:13, schrieb frederik.nn...@gmail.com:
>
> On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 13:07, Christian Rupp  wrote:
>
>> I think that we should use the space for something more informative than
>> the 8 icons...
>> http://ubuntuone.com/5nAsW7hEmAs6jvyiq8Z6on
>
>
>  like a widget space, rght?
> this could be easily achieved by using the Launcher API in the Dash.
> there would be enough space for all high-interest statuses such as email,
> instant messaging & call services, progress on system update or
> filetransfer or filedownloads and a visual way of indicating, how many
> windows the browser has open.
>
> Yeah right...
> Plus more such as weather or a calender.
>

weather i don't know, i'd like it, personally, but some might not.
But Calendar, yes, calendar is one important feature that has yet to be
properly implemented in the free Desktop Environment.
at least a live indication of the next appointment today and a proper date
showing the  day of the week.
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Re: [Ayatana] Some thoughts about the home lens

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 13:07, Christian Rupp  wrote:

> I think that we should use the space for something more informative than
> the 8 icons...
> http://ubuntuone.com/5nAsW7hEmAs6jvyiq8Z6on


like a widget space, rght?
this could be easily achieved by using the Launcher API in the Dash.
there would be enough space for all high-interest statuses such as email,
instant messaging & call services, progress on system update or
filetransfer or filedownloads and a visual way of indicating, how many
windows the browser has open.
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Re: [Ayatana] Need ability to close windows from within "Spread Mode" (super+W)

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 11:09, Chad M/ Germann  wrote:

>
> The problem is and you don't see it is your trying to cram a touch
> interface on a Desktop OS.
>

i think human computer interaction has some basic rules which apply to all
input devices that are pointer based.
all pointers are emulations of the human index finger, our natural human
pointing device.

we drag stuff with the whole hand, Minority Report was science fiction,
Kinect is Augmented Reality.

we hold stuff in our palm.

i could go on with this all day, but at the end of the day it's just an
ordinary physical modeling of certain actuation habits humans already have
onto the HCI framework of Free software.

As you stated before, the goal might be well placed in becoming more
"Unix-like" again.
But what exactly this means in 2011 is yet to be presented.
Concepts came, concepts were falsified, others improved and revisited, we
learn from mistakes and so does the collective collaborative effort.

I'm glad you put out your statement, it is a clear reminder that design,
philosophy and policy are equally important on this ML.


> Ubuntu will never see a Tablet or phone becuse it has too much in the
> way
>
> for example
>
> Power management Ubuntu is far from the best of the best distro for
> power usage. (my laptop gets 20 more minutes under fedora than it does
> under Ubuntu 11.10)
>
> Unity is a plug in for compiz. to fully understand the problem I invite
> you to do a little experiment. Play a video or game full screen in Unity
> than do the same in Gnome Shell than KDE, Note that the Frames per
> second slightly faster Mutter and even faster under Kwin. (and the gap
> between Mutter and Kwin is narrowing as Mutter matures) it this is
> notable on heavy Desktop hardware how is it going to be under mobile
> hardware. Hardware vendors are a panicky lot and are going to notice
> this and think "nobody is going to want a Tablet OS that cant play
> smooth full screen video or play Angry Birds with."
>
> Now to break and go on a tangent for a moment I am going to state this
> on the record. And i will stake  my reputation as a Computer Scientist
> on the following statement. the OS that continues to build a system
> designed around a rich desktop client model will be flooded with users
> within five years.
>
> You may be thinking Why do I say this? Simple think back 10 years or so
> and the big Industry fad at the time was thin clients. At the time, they
> seemed like a good idea move applications and the heavy computational
> lifting to the server room and pipe it to the end users desktop to cheep
> Dumb terminals  and save a bundle in IT costs from hardware pricing and
> support.
>
> Quickly problems arose as corporate intranets (I find it funny that term
> is so old that is is not in the spell checker)  were breached. and
> Productivity slowed downs as applications moved as the crawl that
> 100baseT and Intranet connections could serve them. it was a failure and
> not long afterwards shiny Full blooded desktops replaced the thin
> clients.
>
> Now we have this "cloud" (are they nimbostratus or stratocunulus?) fad
> and Everyone wants to build for it with there trendy "Post PC"
> Interfaces to support it. Gnome, Unity and to a marginal extent KDE want
> to get on the cool kids train
>
> Lets look forward to 5 years from now (and I am being optimistic) when
> End users figure out that "Cloud Computing" is the return of the thin
> client only worse as there stuff is being stored further away and
> attached to a even more public and insecure network that is slowed down
> by massive amounts of traffic and the effects of "activists" and
> disgruntled users. A mass exodus will occure back to rich desktop
> clients and at that time the system that can conjure up the most
> compelling Traditional WIMP Desktop interface will win.
>
>
>
> Now ato addres your "Rebukes"
>
> > On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 11:50, Chad M/ Germann
> >  wrote:
> > > On Tue, 2011-11-29 at 12:52
> > +0100, frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> how do you define Unix-like in 2011?
> > >
> > > In a nutshell Keep it Simple, Stupid.
> > >
> > > to expand.
> > >
> > >  1. Small is beautiful.
> >
> >
> >
> > beautiful is mostly also useful, but not always usable.
> >
> Small has a History of being more userfrendly than large and convaluted.
>
> > > 2. Make each program do one thing well.
> >
> >
> >
> > true, ..and name it after that thing, too, so that the user

Re: [Ayatana] Need ability to close windows from within "Spread Mode" (super+W)

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 12:39, SorinN  wrote:

> FInally I have to say the result is a
> soup with no clear explanations for some resulting solutions - sorry
> to say that but this is it.
>
>
be more optimistic: our biogenetical evolution began in a soup, and see us
now!
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Re: [Ayatana] unity at the bottom

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 19:01, Sunil Singh Rana wrote:

> I think its a great idea. Design can be modified so that it remain
> consistent if some user chooses it to be on bottom. I don't really see much
> philosophy behind the current design; for example: I don't know why the top
> panel or left panel have to have the grey transparent visual effect when
> dash is called. I wouldn't mind if the dash shows itself in the center of
> the screen, without blocking the menus and controls of the previous
> in-focus application. In the later case, I would be able to drag and drop
> from the dash to any side of the screen, and the design would look more
> symmetric.
>
> Sunil
>

good points.
I'm having nothing but annoyances with the left-hand-side launcher.
on the long run i'd prefer the dash to do everything for me, it would have
a gesture-activated ALT-TAB-like mode, which would then replace the
Launcher altogether.
And then the launcher API with the progress bars and all the fancy dynamic
indication stuff would start to make sense to me.
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Re: [Ayatana] Need ability to close windows from within "Spread Mode" (super+W)

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

how do you define Unix-like in 2011?

On 2011-11-29, Chad M. Germann  wrote:
> On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 23:35 +0100, frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 21:58, Ian Santopietro 
>> wrote:
>> it should be large enough to be easily targeted with a clumsy pointing
>> device such as my hand.
>
> And this is Why Unity and Gnome Shell are The brunt of so many Jokes in
> the Linux community. Building an interface for tablets (That arguably
> unity will /NEVER/ see use on the industry has been scared off from non
> Android or iOS operating systems by the abysmal showing of the HP
> device) Does not build a useful or compelling experience for users of
> mice and keyboards.
>
> Forgive the rant but i am just tired of this touch focus in a desktop
> port of a Server operating system. Lets be a UNIX like system again.
>
>
>
>

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Re: [Ayatana] Need ability to close windows from within "Spread Mode" (super+W)

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 21:58, Ian Santopietro  wrote:

> I would do it with a small "X" icon in the upper left (Or, simply allow
> the use the use the window controls from the spread view).


yes, that was planned at some point, sabdfl suggested a close button
himself, i don't know what became of it.
I'd suggest not to make a small "X", it should be large enough to be easily
targeted with a clumsy pointing device such as my hand.
Using the window controls from the previews is not a good idea i'm afraid,
it would be better to show the previews without chrome altogether, it only
confuses and has nothing to do with the content i'm previewing.
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Re: [Ayatana] drag to launcher - "raise" or "pop-out"?

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 21:48, Ian Santopietro  wrote:

> If I'm dragging an MP3 file (or set of MP3 files) into, e.g. Totem, what
> exactly can I do with them? Regardless of where I drop them on the window,
> it will play them, which only differs from "Open" in labeling. Why should
> the launcher icon be any different?


First of all, the launcher icon should indicate what it intends to do with
the object i'm about to drop onto it. At the moment it doesn't even
indicate that it's a player, theres only the visual metaphor that stands
for "movie scene". So how does the user know what dropping the object onto
the icon will do?

It is not correct, that dropping a file anywhere in the Totem window will
have the same effect. If you drop a file onto Totem's playlist show/hide
button, it is appended to the current playlist without interrupting the
current song. For rhythmbox and banshee-like apps i can imagine some other
"applications" too, e.g. add to library, play after current, add to
playlist or edit properties.
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Re: [Ayatana] drag to launcher - "raise" or "pop-out"?

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 16:45, Ian Santopietro  wrote:

> No, I prefer the current behavior. There may be ways to expand upon
> it, but it's sufficient for now.


i think the current behaviour is insufficient for the user, but for the
developer it is a good place to start.
"open" was an important menu item when most of the DE was all about
"opening files" or "opening folders".
Nowadays we have multimedia objects, some of them are interactive User
Interfaces.
It makes no sense to give much prominence to the "open" metaphor anymore,
since most of the actions performed on today's content are "view", "view in
fullscreen", "play", "stop", "edit", "manage", "hold", "release", "pause"
and "archive".
"Open" has no or little place in the semantics of our every day DE of
today, except when related to file&folder-like documents.
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Re: [Ayatana] drag to launcher - "raise" or "pop-out"?

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 05:49, Ian Santopietro  wrote:

>
> On Nov 27, 2011 3:38 PM, "frederik.nn...@gmail.com" <
> frederik.nn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 22:20, Christian Rupp 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> For me it's working, just drag it on the icon of banshee the song
> starts, many other programs work also, but not all :((
> >
> >
> > so does holding the drag over Banshee's Launcher icon raise the Banshee
> window?
>
> It doesn't, but dropping it on the Banshee icon will start it playing.
>

am i alone, or isn't this clearly a design regression?

I still can't see how to raise the drop destination while i'm in a drag.
During a drag it seems as if interaction is essentially blocked:
ALT-TAB doesn't work, right-click menus over Launcher items are not
available,

When i hold a dragged .mp3 file over e.g. Totem's Launcher item, the object
i'm dragging is decorated with a "+" emblem, which is misleading.
Dropping onto this target won't "add" anything, it will replace the entire
current playlist.

Drag and Drop is an important gesture in every pointing-device enabled
environment.
Hand gestures are essential to the experience in every modern DE, AR
environment or mobile touch-enabled device.

This worked in GNOME Panel's Window List, is it by design that Unity fails
to offer this comfort?
If not so, i'd be curious to know if there are design specs that suggest
otherwise.

The Blueprint here
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-o-default-apps-unity-integration
e.g.
didn't say much about how an old and cherished comfortable DE interaction
feature simply vanished into nothingness.

Are there any other blueprints i may study in order to satisfy my
curiosity, or is it up to the community to reverse this regression?
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Re: [Ayatana] drag to launcher - "raise" or "pop-out"?

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 22:20, Christian Rupp  wrote:

>  For me it's working, just drag it on the icon of banshee the song starts,
> many other programs work also, but not all :((
>

so does holding the drag over Banshee's Launcher icon raise the Banshee
window?
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Re: [Ayatana] drag to launcher - "raise" or "pop-out"?

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 22:20, Christian Rupp  wrote:

>  For me it's working, just drag it on the icon of banshee the song starts,
> many other programs work also, but not all :((
>

ah thanks.. that's probably because i removed banshee - it was so very
disturbing.
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[Ayatana] drag to launcher - "raise" or "pop-out"?

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

A Unity novice complained to me that since he started using Unity he can't
drag and drop properly anymore.
Drag and Drop is broken for him, so he stated. "This bar doesn't allow
dragging my songs into the player anymore, i want the old bar back"

The reason is simple:
The Window List in the old GNOME Panel would allow a user to drag e.g. a
file from a maximized Nautilus window down onto the Window List button of
e.g. Totem, which upon drag-hover would then autoraise itself to the front,
affording the application window with all its desireable drag destinations.

I see 3 ways of implementing this in Unity:
a) auto-raise the respective application window on drag-hover, similar to
the Window List method
b) pop-out an elegant menu next to the Launcher item offering semantic drop
destinations
c) auto-raise the respective application window on drag-hover and highlight
possible drag destinations elegantly

about a) :
been there, had that, nothing much to explain.

about b) :

e.g. for an .mp3, dragged from nautilus, hovering the rhythmbox launcher
item, the following options could be displayed in the proposed pop-out menu:
1 play
2 play after [title of current song]
3 add to [name of my default library]

I suggest to keep the number of popped-out drop-destinations as small as
possible; this will keep interaction simple and fast.

about c) :
quite similar to a, except that it goes further and requires meddling with
the application window itself.


would this be a reasonable idea, or are there already other plans for
launcher drag-and-drop operations?
i also noticed that you can drag a file from the dash, but holding the drag
over a Launcher item doesn't do anything, dropping it onto a launcher item
doesn't do anything either iirc.
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Re: [Ayatana] Integrate the top bar with the launcher.

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 17:25, Carl Ansell  wrote:

> That would require a new theme, so that the top bar, indicator menus and
> window borders all look the same.
>
>
>
> On Tue 22 Nov 2011 11:33:11 GMT, Enrico Carafa wrote:
>
>> In my opinion the top bar is too isolated from the launcher: the launcher
>> has trasparency and the top bar is all black. We should integrate it
>> better, like it results when the dash is opened.
>>
>
exactly.
Everytime i open up an Indicator Menu, i notice how Unity is all
transparent except for the indicator menus.
Outch. It's like a blind spot in my eye.

So-called application windows already do a good job occupying screen real
estate with blank nothing, "grey areas", chrome and background color,
elements which have no purpose but to support the rectangular window
metaphor. Starting with Unity, it would be a great step ahead, not to
insist on rectangular shapes wherever possible, to keep one interface which
is predominantly glass-looking consistent within itself and to start
treating interactive display objects and indications independently from
what we remember as "windows".
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Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 08:47, Thorsten Wilms  wrote:

> On 11/20/2011 10:57 PM, frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I'd love to see a special pie menu unfold, when a mouse drag is held
>> above a launcher button, dwelling.
>>
>
> How would that coexist with the ability to reorder Launcher items via
> drag-and-drop?


When i drag something from Nautilus and hold the drag over a Launcher item
such a menu should appear.
When i drag and hold a Launcher item, it should not appear. OTOH, i'd very
much love to have desktop halves, i.e. left half and right half, like large
tiles, into which i can drag and drop an application. This way the
respective application would be expected to open in a
tiled-to-right-half-of-screen or tiled-to-left-half-of-screen fashion.

When talking about gestures, there's a lot we can do better with drag and
drop, to make the UI feel more natural with pointing devices and
touchscreens.
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Re: [Ayatana] List windows on hover

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 22:36, Callum Saunders  wrote:

> The windows previews should only show if the app has multiple windows
> though, otherwise it would be unnecessary.


I'd love to see a special pie menu unfold, when a mouse drag is held above
a launcher button, dwelling.
I could contain the 2-3 most likely operations for a DnD of that particular
file type over that particular program.

e.g.: an mp3 over totem: 1. playback  2. append to playlist
a mp4 over vlc: 1. playback 2. playback in fullscreen 3. append to playlist

perhaps somebody can come up with a lot of other use cases for other
file-types
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Re: [Ayatana] More information in indicator menus

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 22:18, Ian Santopietro  wrote:

> There are a couple of things I would recommend. I would put the status
> indicators at the top of the menu. Currently, they're meant to be a
> simple way to set your status across all programs and protocols that
> support it. This becomes clearer with the icons at the top, and
> doesn't diminish the point of the status selection.
>

yop


>
> Then, add a "Launch Empathy" (or similar) item to the
> list of options to load the program. I feel like this would be
> slightly more user-friendly.
>

nah, launchers belong into the launcher, or into the dash.
this should be more strictly respected, it's important.
launching empathy has no relevance, Contacts Place or People Place would be
the thing to promote.
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Re: [Ayatana] More information in indicator menus

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 22:03, Matt Richardson <
m.richardson.1...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

>  Recently Ian Santopietro made some mockups for how Unity might look on a
> phone or a desktop.
> I love the way his phone indicators look and the amount of information
> they show and I think we should migrate them to the desktop. I have done a
> mockup below to show how they would display:
>
> Mockup 
>

wow!
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Re: [Ayatana] Shut Down in Dash and with Key-Combination

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 18:07, Michael J Daniel <
michael.j.dan...@comcast.net> wrote:

> **
> On 11/16/2011 02:13 AM, frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 21:24, Ian Santopietro  wrote:
>
>> Why do we need to optimize the ability to shutdown anyway? As a rule,
>> you'll only do it once per session, and it's not like it's hard to access
>> as it is now.
>>
>>
>  There are many things that are not done often, and the goal is that at
> the end of the day you won't do anything more than once, because the
> computer already understands the context of what you are attempting to
> initiate, and complements your gestures with the desired context
> intelligently.
>
>
> This is a wrong understanding of reality.
> It implies the ability an automaton to see the future.
> This is not an ability, recognized as characteristic of any known thing in
> our small corner of space-time.
>

interesting way of seeing it, yet if you read exactly, you will find the
word "intelligently". I don't think a toaster needs to see the future to
afford heuristics for its 3 most common use cases, and the same goes for
any machine.


>
> Please don't let your zeal to win an argument,
> push you from the rational to the emotional.
> It is already hard enough to have a useful discussion with this many
> diverse people.
>
>
>  positioning a rarely used element correctly for once is a key solution,
> which will lead the way for the positioning of other such rarely used
> elements.
> and Shutdown, as rarely as it will be used, should be accessible. I would
> feel very uncomfortable, if i didn't know where to find that "Power button"
> immediately.
>
>
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>
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Re: [Ayatana] Shut Down in Dash and with Key-Combination

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:38, Jo-Erlend Schinstad <
joerlend.schins...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Den 16. nov. 2011 11:13, skrev frederik.nn...@gmail.com:
>
>
>> positioning a rarely used element correctly for once is a key solution,
>> which will lead the way for the positioning of other such rarely used
>> elements.
>> and Shutdown, as rarely as it will be used, should be accessible. I would
>> feel very uncomfortable, if i didn't know where to find that "Power button"
>> immediately.
>>
>>
> Which is why it is always visible at the appropriate place; the corner of
> the screen. Why would it be better to do move it out of sight into the dash?


exactly. i don't think it would be wise to remove it from the edge of the
screen. One could keep it in the top right, make it a large button and give
it a more prominent coloring when the dash is open, but that would require
a proper visual design of the whole indicator wing at the top right.
I'm positive that will happen in the near future, my guts are telling me
so..

look at this for example:
http://www.gabsoftware.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Capture-121.png
what we have now is much better already!
now it needs to be stepped up into a proper design, away from the rusty
plain old menu stuff that has been around from ever since back in the day..
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Re: [Ayatana] Shut Down in Dash and with Key-Combination

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 21:24, Ian Santopietro  wrote:

> Why do we need to optimize the ability to shutdown anyway? As a rule,
> you'll only do it once per session, and it's not like it's hard to access
> as it is now.
>
>
There are many things that are not done often, and the goal is that at the
end of the day you won't do anything more than once, because the computer
already understands the context of what you are attempting to initiate, and
complements your gestures with the desired context intelligently.

positioning a rarely used element correctly for once is a key solution,
which will lead the way for the positioning of other such rarely used
elements.
and Shutdown, as rarely as it will be used, should be accessible. I would
feel very uncomfortable, if i didn't know where to find that "Power button"
immediately.
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Re: [Ayatana] Applications in unity

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 00:11, frederik.nn...@gmail.com <
frederik.nn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> branding makes it easier to identify the product. the program is best
> identified by a message, and a clear message is best delivered through a
> semantically powerful and unabiguous means, such as a symbol.
>

branding makes it easier to identify the product, it doesn't necessarily
describe the program behind it.
and the application, use or purpose of the program behind a brand is
usually overstated or misleadingly advertised, while a semantic icon is
capable of describing the product, program, application, appliance, use or
purpose meaningfully.

if you want to make money or harvest customers, use branding. if you want
to build a meaningful UI, use meaning i.e. semantics, that was my point,
and i suppose we agree to a large extent.
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Re: [Ayatana] Applications in unity

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 23:35, balint...@gmail.com wrote:

>
>
> frederik.nn...@gmail.com 2011. november 14., hétfő napon a következőt
> írta:
>
> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 21:45, balint...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Ayatana team,
>>>
>>> Don't get me wrong, but in the current version of Ubuntu it is not
>>> clear, what applications are.
>>>
>>
>> excellent point.
>>
>>
>>> We should define what exactly an application from the User's point of
>>> view is and stay as close as possible to that metaphor. I think, as a user
>>> may expect: an application is a program wich is by no means part of the
>>> system.
>>>
>>
>> An application is a way of employing a device, kind of like a "purpose"
>> or a "use".
>> A thing is considered useful if it has a purpose aka an application, or
>> even multiple purposes, uses, applications.
>> An application is not an icon representing window built on a graphical
>> toolkit showing buttons and toolbars.
>>
>> An application of my laptop is for example messaging, another would be
>> office work, another would be entertainment, and so on and so forth.
>> Today, the misconception about applications is obvious: we are mislead by
>> e.g. Apple's misusage of the word "App" as a marketing strategy.
>> By selling applications as single items in the store, Apple actually
>> seperates functionality from the core system.
>>
>> Imitating this behaviour will only make things worse, so thanks for
>> bringing the topic up, Balint!
>>
>>
>>>
>>> - An application is not used for system configuration.
>>>
>>
>> exactly, that would be a very special case of "application", if at all.
>> configuration would rather be "device maintenance".
>>
>> - An application can be removed from the system without any problems (no
>>> dependency on it)
>>>
>>
>> that's like removing the radio from a car.
>>
>
> Well, if I wanted a CD player instead, then why couldnt i remove the radio
> without causing harm in the car?
>

no, of course you can replace it, sure, there's nothing wrong with removing
the cd player from a car. i was merely complementing your statement with an
example.


>
>
>> - An application is represented by an icon. (This is really important.
>>> For a developer a program may be an executable, or a package, but a user
>>> may think the icon he/she sees IS the applicaion - When I was 6, i thought
>>> that deleting the game's icon deletes the game. I'm sure i'm not alone with
>>> this.)
>>>
>>
>> That's for branded stuff. We live in a world of brands, which
>> unfortunately reminds me of branding in slavery times. I think a true
>> application doesn't need a marketing-style icon, it needs a symbolic icon
>> that carries a semantic value, rather than a marketing one. Symbolic icons
>> for meaningful applications.
>> As you scale up, color and shading can be added, but the symbol itself
>> should already "deliver" when monochrome.
>>
>>
>
> I don't really get your point here. Every icon carries semantic value, and
> that "branding" thing makes people easy to identify the program.
>

branding makes it easier to identify the product. the program is best
identified by a message, and a clear message is best delivered through a
semantically powerful and unabiguous means, such as a symbol.


> I'm sure you wolud be quite upset if you opened banshee instead of
> rhythmbox, because their icon didn't show anything related to their
> brand/identity apart from being a music player.
>

agreed.


> Anyway you're right that the system defaults should have very semantic
> icons.
>

that was all i was trying to say. thanks for putting it straight.


>
>
>> - Applications are icons, he/she can find in the software center and drag
>>> to his/her machine (launcher or dash) to get it.
>>>
>>
>> ok.
>>
>>
>>> I would like to have a desktop, where applications show up with
>>> installation animation, when i buy/download them form the store (like the
>>> iPhone approach). Where an application gets deleted when I drag it to the
>>> trash can. Where progressbars, counters and stikers do not only show the
>>> applications status in the launcher, but everywhere the application appears
>>> (at least in the dash as well).
>>>
>>
>> thank you. An object should indic

Re: [Ayatana] Applications in unity

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 21:45, balint...@gmail.com wrote:

> Dear Ayatana team,
>
> Don't get me wrong, but in the current version of Ubuntu it is not clear,
> what applications are.
>

excellent point.


> We should define what exactly an application from the User's point of view
> is and stay as close as possible to that metaphor. I think, as a user may
> expect: an application is a program wich is by no means part of the system.
>

An application is a way of employing a device, kind of like a "purpose" or
a "use".
A thing is considered useful if it has a purpose aka an application, or
even multiple purposes, uses, applications.
An application is not an icon representing window built on a graphical
toolkit showing buttons and toolbars.

An application of my laptop is for example messaging, another would be
office work, another would be entertainment, and so on and so forth.
Today, the misconception about applications is obvious: we are mislead by
e.g. Apple's misusage of the word "App" as a marketing strategy.
By selling applications as single items in the store, Apple actually
seperates functionality from the core system.

Imitating this behaviour will only make things worse, so thanks for
bringing the topic up, Balint!


>
> - An application is not used for system configuration.
>

exactly, that would be a very special case of "application", if at all.
configuration would rather be "device maintenance".

- An application can be removed from the system without any problems (no
> dependency on it)
>

that's like removing the radio from a car.

- An application is represented by an icon. (This is really important. For
> a developer a program may be an executable, or a package, but a user may
> think the icon he/she sees IS the applicaion - When I was 6, i thought that
> deleting the game's icon deletes the game. I'm sure i'm not alone with
> this.)
>

That's for branded stuff. We live in a world of brands, which unfortunately
reminds me of branding in slavery times. I think a true application doesn't
need a marketing-style icon, it needs a symbolic icon that carries a
semantic value, rather than a marketing one. Symbolic icons for meaningful
applications.
As you scale up, color and shading can be added, but the symbol itself
should already "deliver" when monochrome.


> - Applications are icons, he/she can find in the software center and drag
> to his/her machine (launcher or dash) to get it.
>

ok.


> I would like to have a desktop, where applications show up with
> installation animation, when i buy/download them form the store (like the
> iPhone approach). Where an application gets deleted when I drag it to the
> trash can. Where progressbars, counters and stikers do not only show the
> applications status in the launcher, but everywhere the application appears
> (at least in the dash as well).
>

thank you. An object should indicate its status wherever it is represented.
Representing an object with its status indicated in one place and without
indicating its status in another place is confusing and inconsistent, it
makes the operation of a machine more difficult to learn.


> Where i can find every setting, utility, and system control by typing into
> the search box, but not when browsing for applications.
>

Settings are settings, controls, not applications. Again, language gives us
clear guidelines as to how words need to be interpreted.


> There are a bit wilder ideas about applications which i would like to
> discuss also.
> - When an application is pinned to the launcher, it should disappear form
> the dash. (It makes the application metaphor more clear, with only one
> instance of its icon)
>

I don't know. i'd rather abandon the Launcher entirely on the long run and
do everything Unity in the Dash.
I think the launcher is good as a transitional solution, shiny icon bars on
the desktop are common in Windoze and OSX, plus they look fancy.

- The old Windows 95-style approact of icon is bad. The desktop is no place
> for an application, but for documents and files. ".desktop" files shoud not
> be allowed in the filesystem elsewhere than /usr/share/applications .
>

I think the "desktop" metaphor, as ancient as it is, is retarded, computer
UIs need a major overhaul, if they still build on that metaphor.
We're working with a screen nowadays, it can be layered, it can simulate
spacial depth, therein exploiting better the nature of the human visual
cortex: we see, think and imagine in 3d, not in 2d. In my opinion, it would
be better to consider a screen a screen, a frame a frame and a pointer a
pointer.
The law of correspondence is one that should be respected, if we want to
avoid clutter and noise in our user interface.


> I hope you find some of them useul. Best regards:
> Bálint Csonka
>

thanks a lot for an excellent set of ideas! Very inspiring ;)
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Re: [Ayatana] Should we move closer to gnome again?

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 21:04, supernova  wrote:

>
> In my opinion, as a 14 years old Linux user, GS now has more coherence
> than Unity. Infact objects, icons are grouped in places of the screen
> where you can find same aim or use. Moreover, Unity is thought to be
> used by millions of people: how could this happen if one, after having
> installed Ubuntu, should install vlc in place of totem, alsaplayer
> instead of banshee and so on? Success will arrive if Ubuntu will
> spread all over applications as tv, desktop, tabs, palms,
> groak-urf-urf (not discovered yet aliens device for fast
> communications) and kind of user: from old Debianers to New(bie)
> people! If Ubuntu will be configurable by geek but usable by a Dummy
> there will be the great jump in the history of Gnu/Linux.
> My 2 cents,
> Supernova


thank you.
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Re: [Ayatana] Default Dash screen mock up

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 23:35, Cyrille Ngassam Nkwenga wrote:

> Hello Guy, I want to share with you my thoughts on the default Dash
> everybody seems to have issue with the actual one.
> But before let me explain the problem I want to solve with this design:
> Currently , in Unity there is not a good way to manage multiple windows of
> the same Intance. up to now it is not worse, we can deal with it. but what
> if I want to have a sight of my whole Activity ? Expose or Grid doesn't
> give an answer. That what my design try to solve, and by the way ,
> indirectly propose a way to manage multiple windows (instances) of the same
> apps. that is the core of the Dash, and as extra, We have a Pinned App
> category, Available Updates ( sorry in the pic I wrote "availible" , don't
> blame me for that) and option to shutdown , log out, lock screen and more.
>
> before you ask : why is Gedit doing in the development Category ? The
> answer is : As gedit is running, the Dash looks for the extension of the
> opened files. If it is one of a programming language : c, cpp, html, css,
> py, java ... then the Dash lists that instance in the Development Category.
>
> The cross over the Pinned App just mean that clicking will unpin that App.
> The cross over the App in Activity mean that clicking it will close that
> instance.
>
> Sorry the spelling , I'm not a native speaker.
> And, yeah I did it with my Hand, sorry for the quality
> Thanks
>
>

what i do like about your mockup is the idea, that the window previews
would be gridded out into the dash, that's beautiful. i wouldn't like
thumbs, but small previews with titles would be great.

what i love about your concept, is that you suggest a semantic connection
between the apps currently in use and the way the Dash adapts it's search
results to this fact. That's intelligent.
The next step would be "used with", a function within Zeitgeist, it can
remember what item USER usually uses simultaneously with what other item.
That's complementary to your intelligence addition.
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Re: [Ayatana] Default Dash screen mock up

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 20:04, balint...@gmail.com wrote:

> I like your ideas, however i think launcher is already the place for
> pinning apps.


correct.
It's only that the launcher has its disadvantages, and it's clear that one
of them is definitely, that the launcher is but a single column on a far
end of the screen, while the dash exposes whatever it exposes center stage.


> In dash we should show the most often used apps which are NOT pinned in
> the launcher.
>
> --
> *Csonka Bálint* @913
>
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Should we move closer to gnome again?

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 12:19, Christian Rupp  wrote:

>  I really like unity and dislike GnomeShell for different reasons.
>
> But Gnome plans some really cool stuff such as the recent mockups for
> various apps.
> http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/2011/11/10/gnome-design-update/
> and
> http://www.webupd8.org/2011/11/new-updated-gnome-application-designs.html
> The question is shouldn't Ubuntu move as fast as possible to the latest
> gnome version so that they can implement most of these thinks in 12.04.
>
> 1) Music player:
> - banshee needs mono, is slow and still is a gtk2 app
> - rhythmbox looks ugly
> --> help Gnome implement the music mock up and you have it
> 2) Chat: the current look of empathy isn't really good
> 3) Videos: currently we have a video player and banshee: banshee has a
> library, video player not but banshee will be removed
> 4) network senntigs look a lot better in gs than in unity (here you have
> just to change the option in the connection indicator)
> 5) notifications: i really like the integration of empathy in GS you don't
> need to open a window just type something...
>
>  and: Online accounts is nearly useless in unity and their is no calendar
> (although I prefer Thunderbird we need a calendar)
>
> But a think most important is: the farer we got from gnome the bigger the
> differences and the harder for gnome, canoncial and app developers to
> handle different shells
>

Diversity has its cost, but the benefits are so enormous, that it became an
underlying principle of natural evolution.
Let's look at the advantages, instead of losing ourselves in a futile
discussion about what cannot be changed.
Both approaches offer alternative implementations of quite much the same
concepts.. i'm happy we're not stuck with one large product, that we have
the choice between two or more variations.

If Unity and GS should become closer again, i'd suggest to keep that on a
platonic level ;)
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Re: [Ayatana] Dash Home Mockup

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

how do you want the buttons to highlight?
will the text be within the highlighted rectangle, or will it be outside,
as it currently is?


On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 02:43, Evan Lin  wrote:

> Here is my mock up of what I think home dash should look like.
>
> --
> Evan Lin
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Unity Lens Mockup.

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/889098
there you go ;)

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 13:52, frederik.nn...@gmail.com <
frederik.nn...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 13:48, Omar B.  wrote:
>
>>
>> > one thing that troubles me about lenses at the moment, is that the
>> > entered text doesn't travel along when i move between lenses. The
>> > optimum would be, if there were no lenses at all and the computer could
>> > read my mind from the text i input.
>> > Somehow, Synapse (GnomeDO on steroids) got that one right. But enough
>> > of that.. beautiful mockups, especially #2, good lookin!
>>
>> the developers can't read your mind either :p
>>
>> why not open a bug ?
>>
>
> so you agree, the already entered text should travel along when tabbing
> through lenses?
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Unity Lens Mockup.

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 13:48, Omar B.  wrote:

>
> > one thing that troubles me about lenses at the moment, is that the
> > entered text doesn't travel along when i move between lenses. The
> > optimum would be, if there were no lenses at all and the computer could
> > read my mind from the text i input.
> > Somehow, Synapse (GnomeDO on steroids) got that one right. But enough
> > of that.. beautiful mockups, especially #2, good lookin!
>
> the developers can't read your mind either :p
>
> why not open a bug ?
>

so you agree, the already entered text should travel along when tabbing
through lenses?
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Re: [Ayatana] Unity Lens Mockup.

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 05:35, Evan Lin  wrote:

> I  don't like how the lens are looking for 11.10 in unity so I made come
> mock ups.
>


i'm lovin mockup n#2, the lenses integrated into the search bar
beautifully, the message behind them being "above" the text field is that
they are categories, i.e. "hyper" text, i.e. "above" in english. beautiful!

one thing that troubles me about lenses at the moment, is that the entered
text doesn't travel along when i move between lenses. The optimum would be,
if there were no lenses at all and the computer could read my mind from the
text i input.
Somehow, Synapse (GnomeDO on steroids) got that one right. But enough of
that.. beautiful mockups, especially #2, good lookin!
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Re: [Ayatana] What should Unity look like on Smartphones and Tablets?

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

errrm.. another laudation to the designer..

On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 22:37, Ian Santopietro  wrote:

> At UDS-P, Mark announced his plans to have Ubuntu on Tablets, phones,
> and TVs by 14.04 LTS. You can start too early!
>
>
when Unity's predecessor, the UNR interface, first appeared, it soon became
clear that the ease of use offered by large fingertip friendly UI elements
was not only something for Netbooks, but was also an enhancement to a
typical DE.

Now we're looking at designs for even smaller screens, and again the
optimizations and the semantic focus create a more coherent stream of
simultaneous information affording itself to the user, which is much closer
to the human perceptual physiology - Ayatana, the reason i'm so interested
in this ML.

In other words, designing UIs for small screens forces the designer to
remove all the clutter and leave only the essential appliance itself,
naked, beautiful.
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Re: [Ayatana] Easy to use menus for touch and non touch devices

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 16:01, Thorsten Wilms  wrote:

> On 11/03/2011 02:01 PM, Matt Richardson wrote:
>
>> It strikes me that the idea behind hiding the menus has been that for
>> people with touch devices these menus are not useful and future
>> applications should avoid the use of menus where possible.
>>
>
> What makes you think that would be the idea?
>
> The panel menus in the top right suggests that menus as such are deemed
> OK. Add the Launcher hiding behavior and one must conclude that Unity as
> presented in 11.10 is not at all touch-friendly.
>
>
>
>  As an all round solution I suggest replacing the context menu with a
>> gnome pie menu which would contain the context menu items in the right
>> half, and the top menus as items in the left half.
>> For example:
>> Right clicking a blank space in Nautilus would bring up a pie in which
>> 'Create New Folder', 'Create New Document' etc through to 'Properties',
>> would make up the right half of the pie and 'File', 'Edit', 'View' etc
>> through to 'Help' would make up the left half of the pie.
>>
>
> Pie menus must be designed to get the right number of items in the right
> places. Application menus vary wildly in the number and selection of
> top-level items.
>
> Increasing the number of items exposed at once will increase the average
> time it takes to select a single item.
>
>
> Though in general, I would love to see proper marking menus in Free
> Software.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=dtH9GdFSQaw
> http://www.billbuxton.com/**MMUserLearn.html
> http://www.billbuxton.com/**MMExpert.html
>
> Autodesk did some work on multi-touch marking menus:
> http://www.autodeskresearch.**com/publications/multitouchmm


now that's top material right there!
i had some designs with something i called "finger pies", but they never
reached maturity, as i developed the concept on paper only and i didn't
have time to complete it. Needless to say, it is important to adapt the
computer's interface to natural human gestures and anatomy.

we have 5 fingers, so it's obvious that a pie menu with a max of 5 entries
would be a place to start.
also do i not see, why it has to be a full circle, the fingers of the hand
also don't shape a circle, which makes the designated model more
half-circle like, an arc. And now we're quite close to what the above links
about marking menus offer.. visually at least.

i'm excited about what else this thread will produce :D

thanks Matt, great inspiration!
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Re: [Ayatana] semi-transparent indicator menus

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 23:27, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Which do you think is more important: for indicator menus to have the
> same style as other pull-down menus, or the same style as the Dash?
>

a homogenous surface called Unity, preferrably transparency-enabled, so the
Dash.

The Dash partly solves this readability problem by using larger text
> whenever possible. Menus can't.
>

I think the Dash and the Unity Launcher are handsome, because they form a
see-through overlay interface above live content, kinda like a sheet of
blurry glass.
It's a quite comprehensible metaphor, only that the top-right-corner part of
this metaphor is broken, i can't see through it.
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Re: [Ayatana] semi-transparent indicator menus

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 10:17, Matt Richardson <
m.richardson.1...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

>  I love this idea so I did some mockups:
>
> Desktop 
> Dash 
> Window Theme 
> Indicator Menu 
>
> I recommend downloading the attachments and viewing them fullscreen to get
> a real idea.
>

Your mockups are really good work, perhaps you want to include them into
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/MeMenu%20Mockups

on the point of opacity i still see the problem as less one of taste and
more one of interaction.. a transparent menu allows you to maintain your
awareness of things happening on your desktop, even while the menu is open
above content. An opaque menu doesn't allow that, it thereby steals your
visual focus for the moment of interaction, and the price of having a
"better background" is much higher than the value or duration of the
interaction: focus is lost.
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Re: [Ayatana] semi-transparent indicator menus

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 11:04, Matt Richardson <
m.richardson.1...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

>  Trouble is that alpha and blur on window title bars could become very
> heavy when working with multiple non-maximised windows.
>

could be, might be, i don't know that.
This thread was meant to be about indicator menus and how their opacity
obscures the "underlying" background context, and how this behaviour is
inconsistent with the sleek new look of Unity's LHS Launcher and its Dash.
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Re: [Ayatana] semi-transparent indicator menus

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 10:17, Matt Richardson <
m.richardson.1...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

>  I love this idea so I did some mockups:
>
> Desktop 
> Dash 
> Window Theme 
> Indicator Menu 
>
> I recommend downloading the attachments and viewing them fullscreen to get
> a real idea.
> The window theme and the indicator menu are not transparent, but I don't
> think they need to be either. In this particular case transparency adds
> graphical requirement without achieving a great deal IMHO. I think that an
> opaque theme which dynamically matches the background colour would work just
> as well.
>
> Thoughts?
>

fake transparency is what this method has been called for long.
I still prefer some alpha, perhaps with blur..
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Re: [Ayatana] reduce the font and ui size!

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

Hi charles ;)

2011/10/21 charlesa...@gmail.com 

> Dear All,
>
> I forgot to give my screenshot, the windows font and ui size in my opinion
> is better than ubuntu as you may look in the attached.
>
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
> /charles
>

i think we're running the danger of getting lost in a bikeshed-like
discussion here..
as mpt pointed out already, the problem with scaling is rather that not all
UI elements will scale along.

Trying out GNOME Shell again yesterday i noticed that i could work easily
from double the distance i usually have to my monitor.
The only interface elements that didn't scale up along with the text and the
indicator-icons were the ON|OFF toggles in e.g. Network Manager's indicator
menu.

More than a bikeshed would be to set up the DE in a scalable way, scalable
meaning visual scaling, so that you can have larger font, buttons, previews
and controls in general, in order to recognize everything easily even at a
high resolution and at greater distance from the monitor. This has both
health advantages and would be very forthcoming for a11y folks.
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Re: [Ayatana] User-Indicator/Me-Menu shows icon AND user-name (adds clutter to 11.10)

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

I took the liberty to open a mockups page for what was once known as the me
menu.
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/MeMenu%20Mockups

my main idea is that the indicator area in the top right corner is quite
unsorted, i rearranged the indicators a bit and removed launchers from the
mockup, since it's about indicators.

feel free to add your comments and perhaps mockups, too.


On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 06:43, Ian Santopietro  wrote:

> I think that could be difficulty to design i'm such a way that it doesn't
> look like a glitch.
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Re: semi-transparent indicator menus

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

>
>  Original Message    Subject: Re: [Ayatana]
> semi-transparent indicator menus  Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 12:46:34 +0100  From:
> Carl Ansell   To:
> frederik.nn...@gmail.com 
>
>
> When the panel is set to transparent, the menus do lookout of place. But if
> these are transparent, then they would be hard to read if an application is
> open. You can set them to translucent through Ubuntu Tweak, and it doesn't
> look right.
>

how ? i couldn't find that feature in Ubuntu Tweak.
The degree of transparency should be identical to the one in the Dash or in
the Unity Launcher Quicklists. If this degree of transparency doesn't look
right on indicator menus, then it is surely also poor design for the Dash
and the Launcher Quicklists.

and for reference, here's a launchpad bug on this topic:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/804893

thoughts?
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[Ayatana] semi-transparent indicator menus

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

Unity introduces a new look, but Indicators Menus, which were there before
the Dash, are not yet up to date in that respect.
Obviously, there is no alpha for indicator menus, no way to set transparency
in CCSM for them.
I'd like to have control over that as a power user, power user being the
bridge between designers, developers and plain users.

the main reason i see for having transparent indicator menus is visual
consistency:
finally, we'd have one unified look for all of Unity, of which Indicator
Menus imo are a part.
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Re: [Ayatana] simple NLP in dash

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 16:13, Christian Rupp  wrote:

>  Am 17.10.2011 15:09, schrieb frederik.nn...@gmail.com:
>
> i'd like to type (and one day speak) natural language to achieve simple
> things, such as adding an appointment to my calendar or showing all pictures
> i copied, viewed, created or edited last tuesday..
>
> for this to be possible, the dash would have to start making a difference
> between precise statements (known) and fuzzy expressions (guessed).
> A precise statement aka a known e.g. would be "rm -R /home/fred/oldphotos"
> or "update-manger -d" or something of the kind, while a fuzzy statement
> would be any input that doesn't match the known reference tables.
>
> this way it is possible to employ natural instructions as a user, such as
> "add an appointment at 7am tomorrow" or "schedule a task for 5pm" or "wake
> up at 6am".
>
> wouldn't that be something?
> this would also solve the problem of whether or not to interpret regular
> shell commands in the dash, there would simply be knowns and guesses, end of
> story.
>
>
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>
>  The idea that you can give natural instruction sounds great (hard to
> achieve?) and I really would like to have something like that... control
> over voice (even harder?)
>

I personally know that voice control has been available for a lot of
functions on ordinary mobile phones (CPU < 500MHz) for at least 5 years
now.
There's nothing new about this and there's nothing hard about including
audio in the input loop next to keyboard, mouse and touchscreen.
Now it's all about allowing a small set of natural language instructions in
the dash.

For this i would suggest the creation of a human communication project for
Ubuntu. This way especially A11y folks would have a much more friendly way
to interact with their computer, than by guessing, using Orca or studying
mnemonics by heart.

This implemented, casual developer words like "dialogue" or "alert" would
finally become truly meaningful.


> But I still don't like the idea behind, melting dash and Commands. I think
> keep on using [alt]+[f2] is a better choice. Anything else would confuse the
> "normal" user.
>

that's a valid point, one could make it so that the ALT+F2 Dash looks and
behaves more like a Gnome-Terminal on steroids, while the "ordinary user"
Dash does all the NLP stuff and looks less geeky at the same time.
Including simple NLP would also help get away from "search results" with
only 5% relevance to "truly relevant suggestions" with over 50% relevance to
the semantic human input query.



> Let's hope for 12.04 that an calender is included and that Thunderbird
> looks better, also I'd would like to see "online accounts" working.
>

a calendar is already included, it's just that it comes with the much
critisized and ancient Evolution software suite.
Perhaps a calendar is so trivial to implement, that developers decide not to
create one!?
I can only think of implementation difficulties when it comes to UI design
of such a calendar, but then again there already is GNOME Shell's clock menu
or indicator date-time in Ubuntu, these are pretty much all that's required,
imo.


On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 21:48, balint...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

> I guess you're talking about this one https://launchpad.net/wintermute


i read Gibson, more than a decade ago, i confess, after a few seconds of
search i quickly remembered why "Wintermute" rang a bell :D
And yes, i love Science Fiction a lot, but i'm not suggesting any of that
here, i'm only suggesting to include a very low hanging fruit in Unity,
which has so obviously been made to take us closer to a semantic OS.
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[Ayatana] simple NLP in dash

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

i'd like to type (and one day speak) natural language to achieve simple
things, such as adding an appointment to my calendar or showing all pictures
i copied, viewed, created or edited last tuesday..

for this to be possible, the dash would have to start making a difference
between precise statements (known) and fuzzy expressions (guessed).
A precise statement aka a known e.g. would be "rm -R /home/fred/oldphotos"
or "update-manger -d" or something of the kind, while a fuzzy statement
would be any input that doesn't match the known reference tables.

this way it is possible to employ natural instructions as a user, such as
"add an appointment at 7am tomorrow" or "schedule a task for 5pm" or "wake
up at 6am".

wouldn't that be something?
this would also solve the problem of whether or not to interpret regular
shell commands in the dash, there would simply be knowns and guesses, end of
story.
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Re: [Ayatana] Ubuntu = Human-Centered OS?

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 18:25, Henrik Peytz  wrote:

> Assuming that people would want to automatically be socially connected to
> the Ubuntu community on boot could be a point of discontent I could imagine,
> just saying.
>

exactly. Why not communicate with my already existing personal community?!
Only catch here: stationary user accounts. But we also have a remedy to this
problem: UbuntuOne and OneConf

The dividing of people into different communities sounds a lot like the
> latest trend in social networking, stuff like Google+'s circles, Diasporas'
> aspects and facebook-groups comes to mind. Incorporating that, particularly
> Diaspora, into Ubuntu could be quite neat (I say Diaspora because it's open
> source and decentralized). Imagine that, bult-in social network from the get
> go, with your private information stored/restored from wherever you specify.
> Of course on an opt-in basis.


yop, that's more like it, Diaspora perhaps, but most not necessarily.
Opt-in, as you say.
More important: a proper phone-book. How can it be more difficult to find
someone in my 200 contacts on my 17" Ubuntu Notebook, than on my 3.2"
Symbian Phone?
This is a situation which calls for urgent relief, and we already have
solutions here, as Scott Kitterman pointed out.

It may be far fetched to ask for something as sophisticated as WebOS
Synergy.. but Evolution PIM is not ready for this era, neither is Dexter or
UbuntuOne Contacts, unless one of them finally receives a proper Lense. 2
clicks should be enough to find a person.
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Re: [Ayatana] Ubuntu = Human-Centered OS?

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

Hi there,

On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 16:58, Randall Ross  wrote:

>
> Here is the start of a new spec: 
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/**CommunityLens
>
> We need to begin to use computer mediation to re-connect real people who
> really matter to us. I hope we can breathe new life into this idea and make
> it happen. Ubuntu's chance to really differentiate is staring us in the
> face.
>


the ideas you write up in the CommunityLens spec are interesting, an Ubuntu
Community implemented in a lens is definitely something to think about.
OTOH i don't quite see the low-hanging-fruit potential behind this. The
"Ubuntu Community" approach would seem too nerdy or geeky to an ordinary
user IMO, that's why i didn't consider it yet.

What people want is something like a phonebook-Lense, Symbian, Android,
WebOS etc all have very easy to use and touch-friendly solutions to this,
but our Desktop OS is lacking such a simple PIM to find a person in my
contacts and share or connect with that person through simple human
gestures. We already have real communities, and we want to connect with them
in an inexpensive and comfortable way. Personal computers help us solve this
problem, since they have microphones, cameras, HIDs and all sorts of
flatrate-enabled ways to connect to others.

The People Lens was already implemented, i don't know if the code was too
hackish or if the implementation needs to be adapted to the new Lenses API
before it can be included in main, but what i know is that it was a great
step towards brining non-nerdy human communication and sharing to the Ubuntu
Unity Desktop.
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[Ayatana] Ubuntu = Human-Centered OS?

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

The founding values of Ubuntu stand until today, foremostly represented in
the product's name:
"Ubuntu" translates roughly to "the belief in a universal bond of sharing
that connects all humanity" or alternatively to "humanity towards others". ¹
So the inevitable truth about Ubuntu is that it is meant to be
human-centered.
Keywords here: Human, Sharing, Unity.


Human Unity through Sharing

"Unity" is alive, i'm using it right now to write this email.
Unity means that entities connect into a bond, which exploits the diversity
encapsuled within its individual members through an evolved policy of
sharing.
How can "Unity" become more Human-friendly? By making Sharing easier.
The design efforts targeting an even easier to use interface, based on
simple human gestures and apparent interaction paths that are obvious enough
to be remembered easily seem to be the way to go.
As mpt² pointed out in a way already, heuristics are quite near the core of
what design and development do. "Heuristics" aka bringing things in closer,
if we need them often.

What i would love to either experience as a user now, or talk about as a
design discussion participant, would be extremely short, obvious, apparent
interaction paths to sharing something with another human.
The most surprising point here being, that there still is no Place, Lense or
Prism (i guess they're all just buttons or "apps" to the user) offering me a
simple finger-tip friendly overview of human beings i like to contact
frequently.
In other words: we users have no superfast heuristics for connecting with
each other. This makes Sharing more difficult, and all the talking about a
social desktop or humanity towards others drowns in a recursive spiral of
what we call "interface design". We had a design for a "Places>People"³, it
was already implemented. Perhaps the noun "Places" is incompatible with
action i.e. interaction, which is better represented by verbs, maybe that's
why we still don't have this "button" in Unity.
But Unity, the way i'm trying to explain it here, is not complete in Ubuntu
without the People.

I know there's a lot to be discussed in here, more important issues, stuff
that is directly implementation related, but here's a low hanging fruit that
has already been implemented, and it's simply a "button" away.
What's up with that?


¹ https://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/about-ubuntu.html
² https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg01845.html
³ http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/11/unity-place-people-update/
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Re: [Ayatana] Thoughts about indicators when the dash is displayed.

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 06:50, Jo-Erlend Schinstad <
joerlend.schins...@gmail.com> wrote:

> When the dash is displayed, the panel is semi transparent and the
> indicators are
> still visible. It looks great, but I think there is room for
> improvement.


+1


> I think the "passive" indicators should be less visible and if there are
> any
> indications, then
> those should be made more visible.


that's good thinking, because indicators are meant to indicate, not to "hang
around uselessly".
On the other hand, the proper name is "Indicator Menus", so some rethinking
of the concept might become necessary at some point.
I think it is safe to look at two seperate entities here: the indicator and
the indicator menu.
Indicator menus should be child-elements of their indicators.
What an indicator menu contains should be driven by what the indicator
indicates.
If the indicator has nothing new to indicate, the indicator menu will be
equally dormant.
When the indicator is hidden, the indicator menu should be - as a
consequence - hidden, too.

What doesn't belong into an indicator in my opinion is application launchers
for stuff like e.g. "contact list" or "banshee":
an application is not something i want to launch, i want it to simply "take
place" aka "happen" as soon as i attempt to interact or view content best
handled through that application.
So re-thinking the concept of what "application" really means might also
contribute here..


The clock should be more visible all the time.
>

why is that? i could agree, but i couldn't say why exactly..


> I see no real reason to use the indicator menus while the dash is
> displayed, so
> I think clicking on one should fade out the dash. If it could be made
> so that the menu for the indicator you've clicked is faded in
> simultaneously, I think that
> would be a nice effect.
>

this one i can't confirm. To me, the Dash is the heart of Unity, it should
be the default design and look of unity, when i'm currently not using any
"app".
If i want to view my desktop, it should be available via a single button in
the launcher.
If i want to view anything else, it should respectively be available through
either the launcher or the Dash itself.. but i don't like the fact that the
indicator menus don't work in Unity's most characteristic place. They should
work in the dash, there they should even shine much more!
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Re: [Ayatana] indicators vs launchers

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 16:53, Matthew Paul Thomas  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote on 16/06/11 11:54:
> >
> > in Unity, shouldn't the Messaging menu indicator appear only once a
> > messaging application is up and running? i have neither a mail app nor
> > an instant messaging app running at the moment, still the envelope
> > appears in the panel.
> > While it improves discoverability for the launchers in the menu, it
> > makes discoverability as an indicator of transient events worse.
> >
> > it also clutters the users mental model of how to launch apps and how
> > to use indicators in relation.
>
> The messaging menu contains launchers because it would be weird for it
> not to. The menu needs to label messages by application, and it would be
> frustrating if those labels weren't usable to launch or switch to the
> applications.
>

couldn't one use symbolic icons before each message to indicate it's origin
or protocol?
then the initial need to mix up indicators and launchers within one menu
would disappear if i'm correct.

and i don't think it would be weird to have only message indicators in the
messaging menu, i don't have a "Contact List" button in the Me Menu for
example, and that's sensible in my personal opinion: contact lists and
contact management are something seperate from status.




>
> > i'd suggest put Chat, Mail and Broadcast into the Unity Launcher and
> > add a confirmation dialog to the removal option (Keep In Launcher).
> > So when somebody unticks "Keep In Launcher", she is asked to confirm
> > that.
> >...
>
> What would a confirmation dialog have to do with this issue?
>

this observation was meant to emphasize the importance of having that
"button", prism place or lense where i can find it easily.
In a "clean" messaging menu, where i see only entries that are actual
conversations or messages, there would be no place for application
launchers, the way i was reasoning.. which makes it all the more important
to make these launchers kinda sticky on the left hand side in the Unity
"dock" or as easily accessible lenses, thereby protecting the novice user
from accidentally removing them and never finding them again.

How to implement that, of course, is another question, and a
confirm-before-remove solution is an option but it's absolutely not elegant,
as i find at second thought.
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Re: [Ayatana] Unity and Gtk Application menus

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 18:41, Dylan McCall  wrote:

> Gnome Shell makes use of a single application menu that is always
> present in the top bar. It gets its contents via GtkApplication. In
> the current stable version nothing really uses it, but for GNOME 3.2
> that will probably be changing. For example, a mockup for GNOME
> Contacts has an application menu that is mandatory to use the
> application to its fullest:
> http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/2011/06/09/?presenting-gnome-contacts/


*like*
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Re: [Ayatana] [Unity+Zeitgeist] - Grouping multiple files opened together in the dash

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 21:42, Brett Cornwall wrote:

> Hi, I wanted to see if it would be appropriate to file a bug before
> actually doing so since it's sort of a feature request.
>
> I opened a folder of about 200 music tracks, selected them all and opened
> them with totem to play. Dandy. However, coming back to my "files and
> folders" lense in unity, my recent files were obliterated with all of these
> audio tracks.
>
> Might it be appropriate to group mass-opened files together? In this case,
> it would be "193 music tracks queued up" or similar.
>
> Thanks for your time.
>
>

great thinking
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Re: [Ayatana] Search in Nautilus needs a minor improvement

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 00:30, Jarlath Reidy  wrote:

> Hi Frederik,
>
>  Ayatana doesn't have this problem, we are equipped with semantic search in
>> the Dash, that solves it for us.
>
>
> This only finds files I have already used - so it is not really a search of
> any part of the filesystem, only my recently used files.
>

If that is the case, wouldn't it make more sense then to improve the Dash's
search apparatus to include also files which were recently downloaded for
example, or files which were recently created or "touched"? And then as a
consequence, there's the non-zeitgeist-based search which should be an
extension of the zeitgeist-based search, in case the relevant object is not
among the logged stuff..



>
>
> By the way, you ought to try Nautilus 3 because the sidebar is
>> arranged differently now. While you'd probably still need to select
>> File System for what you're wanting to do, there is no Computer button
>> to confuse you. Of course, the Nautilus developers aren't going to
>> make design changes to Nautilus 2; if you're going to report a design
>> bug, you ought to be using at least the latest stable version of the
>> software, if not the development version.
>>
>> Jeremy Bicha
>>
>
> I hadn't thought of that Jeremy, maybe it will be a bit clearer in Gnome 3.
> I still think that when I want to search for a file that could be anywhere
> there is a fundamental problem. At the moment, no search feature I can find
> on Natty operates centrally or encompasses all filesystems.
>

> If nautilus design is out of the hands of developers / designers here then
> it should be addressed at the unity level. I've been reading about Lenses. I
> think instead of having to add a lens to have full search functionality, the
> existing search could be improved in the following way:
>
> 1) I choose from Unity launcher to search "Files & Folders".
> 2) I type "Very Old Document.odt" (which is stored on a seperate disk
> mounted as /media/Backups with the label "Backups")
> 3) Instead of only being told "Your seach did not match any files.", you
> could in this case append the message with "Would you like to search the
> entire computer?" or "Did you mean 'Very Old Document.odt' from the disk
> labelled 'Backups'?".
>

yessurr!!
now that's what i'm talking about, the best of two worlds! the superfast
Zeitgeist engine delivers the most likely results, which are usually the
most relevant, based on Zeitgeist's well designed heuristics.
if that is insufficient, one can still manually instruct a filesystem
search.

The problem at hand has been on the table on launchpad for quite a while:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity-place-files/+bug/646724
askubuntu:
http://askubuntu.com/questions/33551/shouldnt-unitys-dashs-find-files-find-files-that-i-havent-used-yet
Have you tried that "string analyser" thingy, the other lens for searching
files?
http://www.webupd8.org/2011/05/real-files-folders-search-unity-lens.html

so i think a smart user-friendly affordance-aware design of these two lenses
merged would solve the problem to your liking.
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Re: [Ayatana] indicators vs launchers

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 20:13, Roland Taylor  wrote:

>  On 06/16/2011 06:54 AM, frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> in Unity, shouldn't the Messaging menu indicator appear only once a
> messaging application is up and running? i have neither a mail app nor an
> instant messaging app running at the moment, still the envelope appears in
> the panel.
> While it improves discoverability for the launchers in the menu, it makes
> discoverability as an indicator of transient events worse.
>
>  it also clutters the users mental model of how to launch apps and how to
> use indicators in relation.
>
>  i'd suggest put Chat, Mail and Broadcast into the Unity Launcher and add
> a confirmation dialog to the removal option (Keep In Launcher).
> So when somebody unticks "Keep In Launcher", she is asked to confirm that.
>
>  The envelope makes more sense when a messaging related app is running,
> imo.
>
>
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>
> I think this exactly why we need the option to auto-hide
> indicators/notification-area items in Unity (I wish GNOME had done this ages
> ago).
>

u say "items".. that's interesting. the next thought i had was to hide the
entire panel and only "indicate" transient events.
we're probably talking about the same thing..
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Re: [Ayatana] Global menu in Oneiric Ocelot (11.10)

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:43, frederik.nn...@gmail.com <
frederik.nn...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:10, Thorsten Wilms  wrote:
>
>> On 06/17/2011 11:14 AM, frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> But obviously our interaction hardware is
>>> aiming at immediacy, correspondence, rather than symbolic crypticism or
>>> text-driven menu-isms.
>>>
>>
>> I can only guess you must be referring to (multi-)touch surfaces. But
>> that's an addition, not a replacement.
>>
>
> yes, i thought of that, and i thought further, as you did:
> what i'm trying to imply is rather that interaction is becoming more
> immediate, which includes a stronger emphasis on pointing devices, where
> keyboards are becoming more and more a pool for "click modifiers".
>
> An unfortunately not so successfull attempt was made be the Mustux/Protux
> team a decade ago with the so-called JMB - Jog Mouse Board, and Blender is
> also another example, or Ardour, where you point with the mouse and press a
> key to perform an action.
>
> So I'm not trying to say everything is going "multi touch", even if it does
> happen to be a strong trend nowadays, i'm rather thinking along the lines of
> interaction is focusing more and more on the object of your interaction, and
> less on some distant menu at the edge of the screen.
>
> Your regular ILM engineer would surely appreciate such a development, on
> the long run.
>

one could also simply say, object oriented design is becoming less and less
abstract, the objects are beginning to correspond with actual physical or
mental objects, rather than with abstract "steps of interaction", which one
would have to learn anew for each software application.
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Re: [Ayatana] Global menu in Oneiric Ocelot (11.10)

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:10, Thorsten Wilms  wrote:

> On 06/17/2011 11:14 AM, frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> But obviously our interaction hardware is
>> aiming at immediacy, correspondence, rather than symbolic crypticism or
>> text-driven menu-isms.
>>
>
> I can only guess you must be referring to (multi-)touch surfaces. But
> that's an addition, not a replacement.
>

yes, i thought of that, and i thought further, as you did:
what i'm trying to imply is rather that interaction is becoming more
immediate, which includes a stronger emphasis on pointing devices, where
keyboards are becoming more and more a pool for "click modifiers".

An unfortunately not so successfull attempt was made be the Mustux/Protux
team a decade ago with the so-called JMB - Jog Mouse Board, and Blender is
also another example, or Ardour, where you point with the mouse and press a
key to perform an action.

So I'm not trying to say everything is going "multi touch", even if it does
happen to be a strong trend nowadays, i'm rather thinking along the lines of
interaction is focusing more and more on the object of your interaction, and
less on some distant menu at the edge of the screen.

Your regular ILM engineer would surely appreciate such a development, on the
long run.


> Keyboard and mouse are still great to have for word processing, graphics,
> CAD and so on. The nature and quantity of required or useful commands and
> options in such fields hasn't changed.


Yes, i think so too, whereas word processing would be the only example here
which would fit the target audience of the interaction environment we are
discussing.
How CGI engineers use menus and $ 15.000 CAD suites is more of a specialized
problem outside the topic at hand imo.


> So a menu-button would be a good step towards making the interface
>> perceptively simpler.
>>
>
> The perception is not limited to a first look. It includes what happens
> during interaction. In this sense, hiding something only to reveal it at
> some point does not make anything simpler.


agreed.
But the first look will be all the ordinary user will ever get, and the less
cluttered the "first look" is, the simpler the interface appears, which
makes it easier to use already.
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Re: [Ayatana] Search in Nautilus needs a minor improvement

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

Hi Jariath,

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 01:26, Jarlath Reidy  wrote:

> To quote myself on the forums here:
> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1783813
>
> "I want to search for a file and I don't know which of my hard disks it is
> on.
>
> So in Nautilus, I choose the 'Computer' icon from the toolbar and search
> from there. But it seem that from this view you can only search for the
> 'presence' of drives, i.e. find their icons.
>
> I don't think the average user will get this and I certainly don't. How do
> I search for my file without opening a Nautilus window for each drive?"


true.


> It turns out that I needed to choose  "filesystem" - the most cryptically
> labelled entry on the side pane - to get the functionality I was looking
> for. Personally, I think that the behaviour that I was expecting - searching
> from the "Computer" location - makes much more sense. Would this not be far
> better?
>

that's all correct, but i think it's better kept in the Nautilus ML.
Ayatana doesn't have this problem, we are equipped with semantic search in
the Dash, that solves it for us.
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Re: [Ayatana] Global menu in Oneiric Ocelot (11.10)

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 01:08, Stefanos A.  wrote:

> Matthew, I love your idea. With little twist:


loving the idea, too.
i wouldn't make it that humble tho, proper fields, perhaps the size of
browser tabs, would make sense to me for each menu ( View, Go, Edit ...)

- unmaximized windows get a menu "button" that displays (drops down?) the
> menu when clicked.
>


this idea feels good, too.
Until today, i have been unable to figure out what appmenus are actually
really gonna be needed for in the future of "interface". A11y perhaps? A
blind person is unlikely to be using Gimp or Blender, whereas both
applications are good examples of context-menu lived app-menu functionality.
Perhaps appmenus can be of interest to people who use only a keyboard, yes
that would make sense. But obviously our interaction hardware is aiming at
immediacy, correspondence, rather than symbolic crypticism or text-driven
menu-isms.

I've also been thinking that "interface" is becoming more complex, but
that's only true if you look at it from the code point of view. To the human
naive perception, interface is becoming simpler, it corresponds more and
more with the actual content, i.e. the sense realms we are trying to connect
with.

So a menu-button would be a good step towards making the interface
perceptively simpler.
Maybe this is a good opportunity to rethink the role of the the Context Menu
Button on our desktop computer keyboards. Pressing it should at least
visualize those *context relevant,* usually panel-lived menus, which might
be hidden in the model you describe.
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[Ayatana] indicators vs launchers

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

in Unity, shouldn't the Messaging menu indicator appear only once a
messaging application is up and running? i have neither a mail app nor an
instant messaging app running at the moment, still the envelope appears in
the panel.
While it improves discoverability for the launchers in the menu, it makes
discoverability as an indicator of transient events worse.

it also clutters the users mental model of how to launch apps and how to use
indicators in relation.

i'd suggest put Chat, Mail and Broadcast into the Unity Launcher and add a
confirmation dialog to the removal option (Keep In Launcher).
So when somebody unticks "Keep In Launcher", she is asked to confirm that.

The envelope makes more sense when a messaging related app is running, imo.
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Re: [Ayatana] Windows 8 and OS X Lion observations

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 00:57, Ed Lin  wrote:

>
> On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Matthew Paul Thomas 
> wrote:
>
> > I don't understand why you think a single OS for multiple form factors
> > counts as getting something right. The success of iOS, Mac OS X, and
> > Android strongly suggests otherwise.
>
> Reinventing the wheel and so on. This is about the underlaying
> architecture, not the interface. iOS and Mac OS X share a lot of code,
> we don't know the Google's strategy but I'd wager on a fusion of
> Chromium OS and Android eventually. Linux kernel is the best example,
> embedded to super computer, everywhere it's the same "OS" in its
> original meaning.
>

yes, Operating System in my understanding is the kernel.
The rest is applications, or what Ayatana discusses mostly: User Interface.

I think it's easier to use technically differing equipment, if the user
interfaces are somehow similar on a symbolic, semantic or methodical level.
Whether i use a capacitative touch-screen or a mouse should not be the
deciding factor here.

The interface speaks a language, and this is usually bound to a graphical
display space and perhaps an audio output. Nowadays, color is available on
most devices, video resolutions on smartphone displays are at least what
they used to be on early WIMP machines.

So what are we talking about.. an OS, a DE or rather the Unity of
"interface" ?
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Re: [Ayatana] Windows 8 and OS X Lion observations

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 18:47, GonzO  wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 2:09 AM, Thorsten Wilms  wrote:
>
> > Too funny, as it is your kind of use that robs the word of meaning.
>
> Don't look now, but word usage and meanings change over time.


they change intuitively..
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Re: [Ayatana] Windows 8 and OS X Lion observations

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

Hi Ed,

On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 23:46, Ed Lin  wrote:

> It's always interesting to see with what solutions others come up to
> exactly the same problems. In the last days both Microsoft and Apple
> let us cast a closer look at their next OS versions.
>
> If you missed them:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MnEndww2YQ and shorter
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p92QfWOw88I
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2aaduuWTvo
>
>
thanks for the links!


> You know the windows snap feature, in Win8 you can resize both windows
> with a single handler. A pretty obvious feature which would be nice
> having.
>

tiling. (compiz:tile plugin)
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/compiz/+bug/695251/comments/6
i pray someone will have the skill and courage to code that right.

In full screen apps there is no "information area" (clock and hardware
> stats). If they can pull that off the "wing panel" that stays below
> the maximized wind as discussed in "Global menu in Oneiric Ocelot
> (11.10)" could be an interesting solution for with applications such
> as Chromium/Firefox with tabs on top. A click in a screen corner for
> example could bring it temporarily to the foreground. If you think
> about it, hidden information that is very easy to unhide and that
> doesn't have to be visible all the time (if you are working on
> something it's often just distraction) seems sensible to me.
>

Wingpanel is a great step ahead, it needs some design love i guess, but it's
really cool to have an indicator-only panel, no noisy appmenu and no wasted
space along the top screen edge.

Full screen apps: see how the top panel slides out? They too do
> without a clock and other always on indicators, the desktop is just
> one swipe away anyway, i.e. it's back as fast as you can move your
> eyes from the current activity to the top right.
>

some application developers don't see the need for a full screen mode:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/562276
https://bugs.launchpad.net/evolution/+bug/543953
perhaps using an application is a totally different experience from
developing it.

 On another note: "Launchpad". Sue them! :P
>

hehe ;)
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Re: [Ayatana] Launcher and Panel Overlap

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 21:06, Ian Santopietro  wrote:

> Two points:
>
> 1. Super+E still exists in the Workspace switcher in Unity, or Super+S.
>
> 2. Zooming out to move a window decreases productivity. For people that
> know about it, they have to wait for the desktop to zoom out first (After
> requiring an extra click or key-press), then can move their windows around.
> New users would be completely lost as to how to use it, and would likely not
> use it at all.
>
> It might be okay for power users, but for the majority of Ubuntu users, who
> look to Ubuntu to be easy to use without having to read a manual first.
>

makes sense, yes.
perhaps i'm thinking too far with my Window Control mode.

otoh, would you mind pointing out the difference in behaviour you observed
in wingpanel lately? does it have edge resistance for windows that live
within wingpanel's horizontal dimensions?
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Re: [Ayatana] Launcher and Panel Overlap

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 15:34, Ian Santopietro  wrote:

> What happens if you have a narrow window (GIMP, Empathy) stuck behind the
> icons on the right? I think that's why Wingpanel's behavior was changed.
>
i've been thinking about that point... i find it ridiculous.
the DE should be designed in a way, so that you can move a window without
the need to grab it by it's chrome. At some point SUPER+E was useful in that
respect, as it showed you the exposé of all workspaces, and allowed you to
move the previews of windows. There should be a scaled window preview mode,
in which you can touch, grab, move and close windows on your workspace(s).
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Re: [Ayatana] Let's have the launcher phagocytize the new system tray

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 19:32, Peterson Silva wrote:

>
> Well, this inspired me. Do we really need the system tray when similar
> things can be achieved through the launcher now?
>

what system tray are you referring to?
perhaps re-read this excellent article by mpt to revive the topic a little..
http://design.canonical.com/2010/04/notification-area/



>
> The same goes for, say, Transmission (when not launched, right-clicking
> would only show regular menu; after it's launched, right-click would show
> indicator menu), Ejecter (I'm currently using it, that's why I had the
> idea), keyboard layout, messaging menu... Everything!
>

appindicators were a transitional solution for migrating the systray-icons
with all the functionality they had to the new category-based Ayatana status
indicator menu system. Giving Appindicators the prominence you suggest would
be elevating them from a transitional concept to a permanent solution,
which, imo, they do not deserve.


> Shut down button, with all its options, could also become an icon in the
> launcher (something not removable, like the rubbish bin is right now).
>

to be perfectly honest, i would prefer for the power button to remain a
hardware thing, but as it is right now, i can live with it being duplicated
in the DE's UI for the moment.


>
> I guess it would be better to keep the clock in the panel, though.
>

yeah, altogether i think the panel must be gotten rid of at some point.

we don't need to forsake a whole bar of display space permanently, only to
but a bgcolor behind a bunch of monochrome icons.
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Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 20:35, Toby Smithe  wrote:

>
> This just seems to be, in the  most part, a vacuum outlet for community
> discontent, rather than a place for constructive discussion.
>

every public mailing list behaves like that, when under heavy load.
some break, some recover afterwards..
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Re: [Ayatana] The top right thing

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 02:01, Daniel Silva  wrote:

> I'd call it the power button.
>

correct, since that's what this button is called in the physical world.
the button is a button, the menu behind it may carry an entirely different
name, but the button is what it is ;)
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Re: [Ayatana] New Unity lens - Contact lens

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

Hi Thibaut,

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 14:07, Thibaut Brandscheid  wrote:

> > Thanks for your mockup (and clever name!) -- I'll make sure
> > we discuss it during the UDS Lens session.
>
> This would be s great :)
>
> If you want you can add the mock-up to the wiki - just do with it what you
> want.
>

it's quite sexy, indeed!
why not add a mockup for the maximized dash? in that one, you could make it
show search results as large thumbs or "cards", just as Ian suggests above,
and still have the actions on the right.
i'd also swap the positions of "received messages" and "chat", and then
probably think about renaming "received messages" into "history".

thanks for an excellent thread
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Re: [Ayatana] Shadows around active window versus window tiling

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 01:21, Ryan Prior  wrote:
>
> Another tiny detail that could improve the illusion is to remove the
> window corner rounding for the "seam" between the two tiled windows,
> making them look more like one unit.
>

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/compiz/+bug/694302


>
> I can create a mock-up if that would be helpful to illustrate my idea.
>

i think the smspillaz has his hands full with other important work, e.g.
making compiz stable etc., but he already posted this a while ago:
http://smspillaz.wordpress.com/2011/02/11/better-shadows/
i don't know if that patch already made it into natty's beta repos, but if
it did, then it's incomplete as you noticed.
in that case, the patch would have to be revisited to address also tiled
windows, imo..
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Re: [Ayatana] Mockup for ApplicationDash

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 10:34, Marco Rofei  wrote:

>  Hi everybody, in ubuntu's italian community we are discussing about Unity
> and it's usability. From those talking came out two interesting mock-up. One
> is here [...]
>

i really like the animation, it makes clear that you are turning to a
different page, a physical metaphor.
everybody understands that!

now the ubuntu button, as obvious as it is there on the top left, is more
like a hidden treasure, since the logo doesn really mean anything in the
direction of "switch to apps view".
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Re: [Ayatana] why global menubar/application menu isn't such a great idea

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

Hi mpt,

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 10:45, Matthew Paul Thomas  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Kévin PEIGNOT wrote on 05/04/11 14:04:
> >...
> > I still don't see why using a global menu on non-maximised windows.
> > Even for consistency it's useless : if the menu bar is in the panel
> > *just for maximised* windows, every windows will have it's menu just
> > over their body --> logical for most of end-users. Vertical space gain
> > is still here. You have less move to do with your mouse (imagine for
> > menus of a window in the bottom right corner...).
> > If there is one good reason to have menus of un-maximised windows in
> > the panel, then explain it to me.
> >...
>
> 
>
> Cheers
>

is there a long term vision on where this will lead?
I'm happy we don't have those application menus in the window chrome
anymore, thanks to Ayatana.
On the long run, is there some sort of big picture we're moving towards, or
a masterplan of future window management?

especially on mobile platforms, videogame consoles and in professional
multimedia editing suites i see a trend towards: interaction with content
itself vs interaction with content containers (e.g. windows, frames,
workspaces).
Are we moving towards such a separation in desktop linux, too?

Understanding that would help me, and perhaps many other readers here, to
understand the single steps that are being made, such as the introduction of
global appmenus.
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Re: [Ayatana] New style of Minimize button for Natty

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 15:29, nick rundy  wrote:

>  I always thought of the minimize button icon as an underscore, minus, or
> dash. That is, representing the absence/omission of the window. Not that it
> signals the window is being moved to the bottom panel.
>

absense of the window is represented by "close".
The feature minimization stands for is called "iconification", and it's not
far fetched to associate that with e.g. the icons in the Unity launcher.
otoh, minimization can be any form of semantic scaling of a content item,
e.g. preview, thumb etc..
so in that respect, i find it reasonable to indicate a direction of
movement, rather than using an abstract symbol such as "-" or a dot.
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Re: [Ayatana] Simplifying access to the places

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 09:38, Arian van Gend  wrote:

> Hi Jono,
>
> Yes, it has been discussed on the mailing list already. People really like
> the idea. :)
>
> Actually, the person who made that mockup (David I believe) made several.
> I personally much prefer this one: http://unity.exemo.net/3/
> No flipping action, just a graceful slide-in.
> It feels much more natural to me that way, also because it's a less jarring
> change (the only animation involved is sliding-in).
>

*like*
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Re: [Ayatana] Side-by-side placement of Messaging menu and Me menu

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

Hi Adnan,

On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 13:08, M. Adnan Quaium wrote:

> It is just a little suggestion...
>
> I think it would be better if the 'messaging menu' (the envelop icon) and
> the 'me menu' (the speech-bubble icon with user name) are placed
> side-by-side.
>

thank you!
And a great idea it is ;)
This would be a first step into the direction of a combined menu, i think.
The next step would be to show recent conversations/contacts in the
messaging menu, plus a menu item to "clear" the menu.
We often want to pick up on a conversation previously acknowledged, but
these (the acknowledged ones) are not shown in the messaging menu, and
there's no other history of recent contacts or recent conversations.

Skype for example has a submenu called "Recent Conversations", which comes
in handy, except that it is a submenu and therefore lacks accessibility.

So once again, thanks for your idea, i love it and i think as simple as it
is, it is also equally important.
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Re: [Ayatana] Dash should be in full screen by default in desktop

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 13:27, Bilal Akhtar  wrote:

> On 03/17/2011 12:54 PM, frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 05:44, Muhammad Nabil  >wrote:
> >
> >> Dash in full screen looks better. Thanks.
> >>
> >
> > +1
> >
> > keeping the dash small would make sense, if another object could be
> > displayed beside it on the same level / layer, but that doesn't seem to
> be
> > the case, so it should rather utilize all the space.
> > transparancy keeps the stuff below visually accessible, that's good to
> keep
> > a map of the desktop, even when you're in the dash.
>
> I don't think this would be good when the resolution is high (well above
> 1280x800). It would require unnecessary mouse movements.
>

i wouldn't worry too much about mouse movement. when the objects are large
enough to aim at successfully with a "careless" mouse gesture, mouse travel
distance wouldn't be so much of an issue anymore.
On a touch-interface this would be the least of our problems. On a desktop
it's not a problem either, since a desktop usually has a proper mouse, which
can travel the entire screen quickly.
On a home entertainment system with a large full HD TV as monitor, it would
be an advantage to use a lot of display space and have large icons/previews,
since one usually sits a few meters away from such a monitor, and small
icons would be too little to either aim at or to identify visually in the
first place.

so i don't reallly think mouse travel is an issue here..
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Re: [Ayatana] We need a short-term solution for mail applications and the messaging menu

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

Hello Gnomeuser.. if that's your name..

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 14:30, gnomeu...@gmail.com wrote:

>
>
>
> For reference, currently Vala in Natty is broken so sadly no testing with
> the latest stack.
>
> see:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gwibber/+bug/739368
>

thanks for your contribution, but what does "Diaspora" have to do with
either Vala in Natty, mail-notification or the development of Postler?
safe

nnaji
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Re: [Ayatana] New idea of usability for Unity

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

hi fred ;)

On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 16:11, Fred  wrote:

> The Unit has been points of divergence among the users. I developed some
> ideas seeking to improve usability. I hope it will be useful for
> developers.
>
> Mockup in this video:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=s1-0Uw0sjz4&vq=hd720
>
> Pic: http://i.imgur.com/0FI1q.jpg


great video mockup! i don't really like the music, but your ideas are really
cool!
especially the dynamic icons in the launcher! great thinking.
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Re: [Ayatana] Activities/Downloads Unity Place

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 12:54, Kévin PEIGNOT  wrote:

> It would appear only when a download (or why not a file transfer too) is
> occuring, else it is hidden.
>

yes, downloads, filetransfers (rx/tx), cloud syncs (up/down), all of those
should be indicated right on the object itself. An indicator would be cool,
too. So far, the messaging menu is trying to handle filexfer via jabber...
that's an enourmous outch to me.
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Re: [Ayatana] Activities/Downloads Unity Place

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 09:06, Owais Lone  wrote:

> *Downloads*
> I don't know if something similar is already planned or not but I would
> love to see a "Downloads Place" to which all apps could push individual
> download status. Such a place can provide a nice and quick way to control
> all active downloads across apps including torrents.
>

didn't we just start getting used to status menus for "status" ?
apart from that, Salomon Sickert is working on something called Task View..
pretty cool.
[image: downloads.png]

That's what's up! ;)



> *Activities*
> This is much broader than the Downloads place, and the downloads place can
> possible reside as a sub-category of this place. An Activities place would
> show all ongoing tasks in the dash with ways to control or switch between
> them. For example, it could have a Active Windows/Apps section, Downloads
> section, Disk burning, File transfers etc.
>

That would be handsome, but how do you define "Activity" ?
Is composing an email in a webbrowser an "Activity"?
How would Unity know that you're writing an eMail? Would we have to map a
bunch of default use cases of your computer to a new Activity Detection Grid
?

I think an activity is most predominantly defined by how it is started, so
that's how and where one would start determining it to begin with.
If you have a "prism" in your unity launcher which, upon click, opens an
Epiphany tab with mail.google.com in it, that prism could be called "visit
google webmail", and that would accordingly also be the name of the Activity
associated with doing stuff in that browser tab. But unless you succeed in
creating some sort of "timestamp" with semantic information attached to it,
saying "[Owais] [started] [managing music in his rhythmbox]", it will be all
the more difficult to later on scan your Activities, name the ones that are
still on and display them in a useful manner in your proposed "Activities"
place.
OTOH, all of this can't be too chaotic at the end of the day, human beings
don't have more than 2 or 3 activities going in parallel. Most of the things
happening can be categorized into background progresses, persistent services
and subconscious interaction.

E.g. clicking a button is not an Activity, it is more of a subconscious
interaction routine to the user. Or downloading a file in the background is
not an Activity, but a background process.
But managing downloads in a management interface is an Activity.

I think an Activity can be paused, can be hidden conditionally (unhide upon
[event]), can be terminated. WM problems such as whether or not to implement
"minimize" or "iconify" are irrelevant here, fortunately, since what you are
proposing is a major step out of the WIMP world.

This would result in three default places: Applications, Files and Folders
> and Activities.
>

Places > "Files and Folders" needs some love..
perhaps in the course of giving it some, it could turn out to be
instrumental in implementing your thoughts about a "Downloads" place.

It's still a little strange to me, that i have to look for a file forever
after clicking the files&folders place icon in the unity launcher, even
though i just downloaded the same file 2 seconds ago.
Recency sorting has no effect, when stuff is downloaded, only when stuff is
opened.. a shame! ;)
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Re: [Ayatana] We need a short-term solution for mail applications and the messaging menu

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

Hello mpt :D

On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 18:05, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote on 17/03/11 10:16:
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 14:27, Conscious User  >...
> >> The subject is already receiving less attention than I wanted
> >> without being derailed, [...]
> >
> > unfortunately so.
> > perhaps we should ask someone with an @canonical.com
> > <http://canonical.com> to start an "official" thread!?
> >...
>
> That isn't necessary. :-)
>
> It is a good thing for a mail client to allow checking for messages when
> it has no windows open. But it's not a critical Natty-stopping flaw if
> it doesn't.
>
> If you want it implemented in your favorite mail client, draw up a
> sketch of a few different ways it could be toggled on/off within that
> client, choose the best one, implement it (or promote it to attract
> someone else to implement it), and send the code upstream. You have the
> power.
>

thanks for your encouragement! I think if that's what it is, then i'll just
post some bugs on Postler. it does all the required already, and needs some
love..

as for a short-term solution: i'll use webmail. (forgive me, conscious :P )
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Re: [Ayatana] We need a short-term solution for mail applications and the messaging menu

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 14:27, Conscious User  wrote:

>
>
> The subject is already receiving less attention than I wanted
> without being derailed, [...]


unfortunately so.
perhaps we should ask someone with an @canonical.com to start an "official"
thread!?

either way, i've been using "mail-notification" recently, the popups are
annoying but it does the basic job.
of course, what i would expect from an email notifier would be a list of the
last few unacknowledged mails
mail-notification would be so much cooler, if it would open only the
specific message on whose popup dialog i clicked "open" and not ALL unread
messages with it.
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Re: [Ayatana] Dash should be in full screen by default in desktop

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 05:44, Muhammad Nabil wrote:

> Dash in full screen looks better. Thanks.
>

+1

keeping the dash small would make sense, if another object could be
displayed beside it on the same level / layer, but that doesn't seem to be
the case, so it should rather utilize all the space.
transparancy keeps the stuff below visually accessible, that's good to keep
a map of the desktop, even when you're in the dash.
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Re: [Ayatana] 'Control Center' should be in 'Launcher' not in 'Session Menu'

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 17:50, Conscious User  wrote:

> The control center is just a categorized set of
> application shortcuts, exactly what the Dash is
> optimized to handle.
>

and the indicator menu item would be but a shortcut to that dash view, if it
gets implemented as you suggest.
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Re: [Ayatana] 'Control Center' should be in 'Launcher' not in 'Session Menu'

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 16:56, Luke Benstead  wrote:

> On 11 March 2011 15:43, Lee Hyde  wrote:
> > On 11/03/11 14:41, Mark Curtis wrote:
> >> Someone else suggested putting it in the Me Menu
> >> This would solve both problems of not being close to Shut Down nor
> >> cluttering up the Launcher
> >>
> > I can't imagine any justification for placing a Control Centre entry
> > within the Me Menu (other than desperation). It simply doesn't fit the
> > Me Menus brief in that it has nothing to do with identity and online
> > status. One could make a case for including an entry for Users and
> > Groups within the Me Menu, but a Control Centre entry would be even more
> > misplaced than the current (in stock Maverick) Ubuntu One entry (which
> > oddly enough is moving to the Messaging Menu in Natty).
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Lee.
>
> Absolutely, the control center doesn't fit at all in any of the
> indicators (although certain elements of it do).
>
> Luke.


exactly.
Semantically correct would be "Session Preferences" or "Session Options" or
"Session Settings" or something session-related.
This is an opportunity to get the wording right for once.. In that case, the
session menu would be the right place.

and "Session Preferences" could then reveal a page containing settings like
the following:
* Notifications [ON | OFF]
* Screensaver [ON | OFF]
* IDLE Timeout [ ... ]
* ...

but Control Center is something i can live with, even if it doesn't quite
correspond with "Session Preferences" yet..
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Re: [Ayatana] A better chat experience

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

yeah, we considered "Recent Conversations" aka "Recent Contact" in some of
the mockups from the Me&Messaging Menu brainstorming threads..
A very good example here might be Skype, which also has "Recent
Conversations".

According to the cosmic "Law of Correspondence", when i see and subsequently
click something labelled "Chat", i would expect to find a most uncomplicated
way of doing that, "chat" being a verb here.
Since in most cases we want to respond to, resume or review a previously
commenced conversation, "Recent Contact" would be useful, with "Contact"
meaning a conversation, a filetransfer, a VoIP call or a personal
subscription.


On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 18:32, Shane Fagan wrote:

> Ok so ive been thinking a lot about chat and empathy/telepathy is
> awesome but Shell is pulling away from unity in terms of how to best
> use it. At the moment we have the default empathy so we have the
> window and messaging menu system.
>
> While Shell has a special chat notifier that you can see the chat
> history and type but still continue with what you are doing and type
> on the fly. I think this is a lot faster, easier and better looking in
> general.
>

yeah, Shell works well with Empathy, up to the point that Empathy becomes a
background engine.
The fact that Empathy's UI is the Chat UI we use in Unity is not so fresh,
and your mail raises important questions.


>
> Im not saying build a new chat and notification system specifically
> for empathy chat but a quick window in the right corner with the last
> few messages or something and a text box would do and it would only
> pop up if the user clicks on the messaging menu item for that chat. I
> think it would be pretty nice to use.
>
> Thoughts?


I think it would make a lot more sense to focus on messaging, especially in
the Instant Messaging way you suggest, in the Messaging Menu, than to fill
that menu with application launchers, for which purpose we already have the
Unity launcher. I think clicking the envelope or whatever other symbolic
icon will represent "Conversation" or "Message" in the future should present
me with just that: conversations.
Every other thing would be semantically misaligned.
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Re: [Ayatana] config files and apps are diferent.

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 14:05, M. Adnan Quaium wrote:

> +1
>
> Liked the idea. The interface will be easier for an user.
>

and semantically, a configuration page is not an application. it is a
configuration page for applications.
So Daniel is quite right, these don't belong with apps..
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Re: [Ayatana] config files and apps are diferent.

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 13:13, dani  wrote:

> Hi, now in unity configuration files are merged with apps and it's dificult
> for user differentiate them. i proposed to merge configuration files in
> control center, like kde, macos or windows.
> watch the mockups for better understand it. what do you think?
> its simply but important change for dialy use.
>
> http://www.lightgraphite.com/mockup1.jpg
> http://www.lightgraphite.com/mockup2.jpg


good thinking, imo!
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Re: [Ayatana] No one will ever use the upper-left Ubuntu button

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

Hello Mark,

On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 08:16, Mark Shuttleworth <
mark.shuttlewo...@canonical.com> wrote:

> The dash / launcher can be revealed with a 4-drag from left to right on
> touch devices.
>

Will this ever be possible on synaptics clickpads and touchpads, too?
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[Ayatana] desktop widget for appointments

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

does anyone know of a desktop widget for appointments?
i'd like to see the appointments from my evolution calendar on the desktop,
most importantly the ones for TODAY.

how would i achieve that in ubuntu?
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[Ayatana] Category Preferences // Indicator Menus

[frederik.nn...@gmail.com]

On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 11:36, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> The items in the status menus are shortcuts. Sometimes someone will go
> into the clock menu to change something about the time, or the sound
> menu to change something about the sound, etc, before realizing that the
> menu itself doesn't contain the setting they want. But that's okay,
> because at the end of the menu there's a shortcut to the relevant
> settings pane.
>

That's precisely why i think it would be great to have 1 configuration
shortcut on the bottom of the Session Menu.
That shortcut should open the Power Preferences, perfectly corresponding
with the vertically opposite end of the menu, which is decorated with the
Power symbol.
This way, the power symbol on top of the Session Menu would make actual
sense for the first time imo, since "Power Settings" would be the first item
in that menu actually employing the word Power. I can't remember the last
time i opened Power Preferences from the "Battery Menu" aka "Power Menu",
besides it tends to disappear when the power cord is connected..

The most difficult thing for a user to abstract is the combined function of
a menu. Is it a category indicator, we'd better not leave it up to the user,
to decide, what category is meant.
Session Menu and Power Preferences have more in common to me than the
"Charging Indicator", which as mentioned above is not even persistent by
default.

I imagine opening a Session Menu > "Session Preferences", one day containing
the vital parts of Power Preferences, Screensaver Preferences and one or two
options that could be regarded as Session Preferences. I also believe that
it would make sense to have Preferences Windows and dialogs always open in
the same position: snapped to the top-right corner. The current behaviour is
that they appear center stage, and that is a bit confusing quite often.

I'd also say that one categorie's preferences replace another's, so that
there are never two preferences windows open simultaneously.
Once THAT works, there's again less clutter and changing something about the
preferences of some part of Ubuntu would feel more interactive and more
menu-like than the current implementation.

There's a lot more to say, but i think it's best kept back until this topic
proves worthy of discussion.
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