[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Help linking Pai Incognitos in Ponta Delgada, Flores

[mnk]

I just want to say that I have seen a marriage of a slave to a free person. I 
can't remember what village I was searching when I saw it, but it was possibly 
Ginetes. I just remember because I had never seen that before.  Maybe the 
priest in your case was progressive or anti-slavery so he did not mention race  
or status of the women.
MNK

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Help linking Pai Incognitos in Ponta Delgada, Flores

[João Ventura]

Hi mnk,

Your scenario is certainly possible, but I still argue for two different 
women named "Florença" here.

See point 1, where I mention that that same priest _before_ and _after_ 
1806 never referred to "our" Florença as a slave, but that same priest did 
refer to the "mulata" Florença as a slave (note that I actually didn't 
check if it was the same priest, but it's certainly the same parish within 
a 20-year span. Maybe the 1806 priest was different from the one 10 years 
before and the one 10 years later.)
Also see point 4, where I do say "usually". I grant you that eventually 
they did marry, but what occurred in most cases was that they would be 
house servants to some 'richer' society element. Normally, they would share 
the bed with someone in the house, and their offspring would have 'pai 
incognito'. That occurred to both these Florenças. In the case of the 
slave, I'd bet the father of Cláudia was the slave owner.

I've searched the Flores marriage book for the marriage of a Cláudia, 
daughter of Florença, but I never found it.

João Ventura
http://tombo.pt/en

On Friday, 26 September 2014 14:06:28 UTC+2, mnk wrote:
>
> I just want to say that I have seen a marriage of a slave to a free 
> person. I can't remember what village I was searching when I saw it, but it 
> was possibly Ginetes. I just remember because I had never seen that before. 
>  Maybe the priest in your case was progressive or anti-slavery so he did 
> not mention race  or status of the women.
> MNK

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RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Help linking Pai Incognitos in Ponta Delgada, Flores

[pico]

Maria Natalia,  you are right.I can say I have seen this countless times from the 1700s forward on Terceira and Pico. If I were to pay attention to it elsewhere, I'm sure other places could be included, like Sao Miguel where I suspect you saw it.I'm not arguing one way or another about Joao's ancestral line. That takes in-depth study which he has done. But it certainly was a fact freed slaves were married to other regular citizens in the community. In fact, I have an ancestor from Sao Bento, Terceira whose son or daughter married the child of a slave. This was about 1700, if I recall.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico & Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com


 Original Message 
Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Help linking Pai Incognitos in Ponta
Delgada, Flores
From: mnk 
Date: Fri, September 26, 2014 5:06 am
To: azores@googlegroups.com

I just want to say that I have seen a marriage of a slave to a free person. I can't remember what village I was searching when I saw it, but it was possibly Ginetes. I just remember because I had never seen that before.  Maybe the priest in your case was progressive or anti-slavery so he did not mention race  or status of the women.
MNK 







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[AZORES-Genealogy] Rocha in Flores_ help with translation (one word that might unlock clues)

[Lara Muffley]

Hello Everyone- 
I'm interested in the ancestry of Antonio Ignacio Rocha (b. 1823 Santa 
Cruz, Matriz, Flores, d. 1878, Ribeira Grande, Matriz, Sao Miguel).

I found his grandparents marriage record (see link below)
Jose Ignacio da Rocha and Rita Joaquina (1774)
http://www.culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/FLR-SC-SANTACRUZ-C-1744-1808/FLR-SC-SANTACRUZ-C-1744-1808_item1/P122.html

I'm translating the document and am having some trouble reading the name of 
the island where Jose's parents (Manuel and Francisca) are from.
It almost looks like Terlegoa - ha! could it be Terceira? If anyone has a 
quick moment to help, that would be wonderful. 

LM





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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Baptismal Record, Nossa Senhora do Amparo, Algarvia, Sao Miguel

[Patricia Straube]

Thanks Cheri,
I did as you suggested and looked for siblings. As it turns out, it appears 
that Manuel b. 1852 was the youngest child in the family. He had an older 
brother, Manuel b. 1842, plus two sisters named Rosa and brothers Antonio 
and Francisco. Now I'll have to look in Obitos for the first time. The 
oldest child was Maria b. 1838. Their mother's full name was Maria Rosa de 
Medeiros. Fortunately the maternal grandparents were listed in all the 
other baptisms: Antonio Francisco da Costa and Rosa Maria de Medeiros. It 
appears that this is the case where the mother's surname was chosen. Now I 
need to translate all these other baptisms. Wish me luck!

On Thursday, September 25, 2014 8:33:59 PM UTC-4, Cheri Mello wrote:

> Patricia S,
>
> Good job translating!  Now for your questions.
>
> 1. Are the names of the maternal grandparents missing? I can't find them. 
> Why would this be?
>
> Yes, the names of the maternal grandparents are missing.  Maybe the priest 
> had too much vinho.  :)
>
> 2. Were the godparents literal children or were they merely unmarried and 
> their parents names used to identify them? 
>
> They could be children or they could be unmarried.  You'd have to research 
> that family to figure it out.
>
> I'd collect all the siblings of Manuel.  You'll see if the mom's name 
> flips back and forth (Maria Rosa, Maria de Medeiros, Maria Rosa de 
> Medeiros).  And one of the siblings will have the maternal grands.
>
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada 
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Rocha in Flores_ help with translation (one word that might unlock clues)

[João Ventura]

Lara,

This is the extract of that marriage record in the "Casais das Flores e do 
Corvo":

José Inácio da Rocha [n. São Pedro, Angra do Heroísmo, f.º de Manuel de 
Borba e de Francisca de Jesus] c. 1774.12.29 c. Rita Joaquina de Avelar 
[f.ª de Caetano Nunes e de Isabel de Avelar].

You should definitively buy the book, if you're continuing Rita's line back 
in time: 
http://www.amazon.com/Casais-das-Flores-Corvo-Portuguese-ebook/dp/B00AQAOOF6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411749820&sr=8-1&keywords=casais+das+flores

Rita's parent's marriage is in page 481 of the ebook. It occurred 
in 1748.01.29.

Note that you should still confirm if the actual parish records confirm the 
ebook extract, but Mr. Francisco Gomes's knowledge of Azorean paleography 
surpasses that of most people. If you buy the book, you'll get to the 1675 
Great Brick Wall of Flores in no time.

Best regards,

João Ventura
http://tombo.pt/en

On Friday, 26 September 2014 16:39:34 UTC+2, Lara Muffley wrote:
>
> Hello Everyone- 
> I'm interested in the ancestry of Antonio Ignacio Rocha (b. 1823 Santa 
> Cruz, Matriz, Flores, d. 1878, Ribeira Grande, Matriz, Sao Miguel).
>
> I found his grandparents marriage record (see link below)
> Jose Ignacio da Rocha and Rita Joaquina (1774)
>
> http://www.culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/FLR-SC-SANTACRUZ-C-1744-1808/FLR-SC-SANTACRUZ-C-1744-1808_item1/P122.html
>
> I'm translating the document and am having some trouble reading the name 
> of the island where Jose's parents (Manuel and Francisca) are from.
> It almost looks like Terlegoa - ha! could it be Terceira? If anyone has a 
> quick moment to help, that would be wonderful. 
>
> LM
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Baptismal Record, Nossa Senhora do Amparo, Algarvia, Sao Miguel

[Cheri Mello]

Patricia S,

Good luck!  By searching all the siblings, you got the mother's full name,
increased your reading ability, and found out that priests sometimes have
too much vinho at a baptism!

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas,
Achada

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RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Rocha in Flores_ help with translation (one word that might unlock clues)

[pico]

Hi Lara,Are these your ancestors?I first noticed this Rocha family in Flores about 20 years ago while searching for my cousins named Armas.And thanks to Joao and the reference he gave, you know they came from Terceira.My Rocha line is also from Terceira.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico & Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com


 Original Message 
Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Rocha in Flores_ help with translation
(one word that might unlock clues)
From: João_Ventura 
Date: Fri, September 26, 2014 9:50 am
To: azores@googlegroups.com

Lara,This is the extract of that marriage record in the "Casais das Flores e do Corvo":José Inácio da Rocha [n. São Pedro, Angra do Heroísmo, f.º de Manuel de Borba e de Francisca de Jesus] c. 1774.12.29 c. Rita Joaquina de Avelar [f.ª de Caetano Nunes e de Isabel de Avelar].You should definitively buy the book, if you're continuing Rita's line back in time: http://www.amazon.com/Casais-das-Flores-Corvo-Portuguese-ebook/dp/B00AQAOOF6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411749820&sr=8-1&keywords=casais+das+floresRita's parent's marriage is in page 481 of the ebook. It occurred in 1748.01.29.Note that you should still confirm if the actual parish records confirm the ebook extract, but Mr. Francisco Gomes's knowledge of Azorean paleography surpasses that of most people. If you buy the book, you'll get to the 1675 Great Brick Wall of Flores in no time.Best regards,João Venturahttp://tombo.pt/enOn Friday, 26 September 2014 16:39:34 UTC+2, Lara Muffley wrote:Hello Everyone- I'm interested in the ancestry of Antonio Ignacio Rocha (b. 1823 Santa Cruz, Matriz, Flores, d. 1878, Ribeira Grande, Matriz, Sao Miguel).I found his grandparents marriage record (see link below)Jose Ignacio da Rocha and Rita Joaquina (1774)http://www.culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/FLR-SC-SANTACRUZ-C-1744-1808/FLR-SC-SANTACRUZ-C-1744-1808_item1/P122.htmlI'm translating the document and am having some trouble reading the name of the island where Jose's parents (Manuel and Francisca) are from.It almost looks like Terlegoa - ha! could it be Terceira? If anyone has a quick moment to help, that would be wonderful. LM  





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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with two marriages records in Luz, Santa Cruz, Graciosa

[John Athayde]

Lee -

Not sure on Santa Maria, as most of my line (Graciosa-based) was in the Santa 
Cruz or Guadalupe areas of the island (Graciosa). Really odd correlation - I’ve 
got in my line

I might have Manuel Pereira’s brother in my line, as I have Manuel Espinola de 
Bettencourt (b 1683/84) married to D. Catarina de Ataíde ( feb 1683 - ?). They 
are my sixth great grandparents. Avila and Conde are also in my line, but more 
recent. 

Cheers,
John Athayde
(not too far away from you in Charlottesville, VA)

On May 6, 2014, at 11:52 PM, Lee  wrote:

> I need a little help with the two marriage records listed below; one is from 
> 1706 and the other is for their daughter Maria Rosa in 1744.
> 
> #1 - top left
> 
> Manuel de Conde Pays married to Isabel Diero?  
>  Manuel son of Manuel de Conde Pays and Maria Goncalvez (or Gonsalvez?)
>  Maria daughter of Manuel Dornellas da Camera (or is Camara the proper 
> spelling?) and Caterina Novas
> Married January 2, 1706. 
> s it Dicero?
> 
> Need help confirming Isabel's surname of Diero or is it Dicero?
> 
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/GRA-SC-LUZ-C-1702-1741/GRA-SC-LUZ-C-1702-1741_item1/P14.html
> 
> #2 Bottom right of 1st image and top left of 2nd image
> 
> Manuel Pereira Athaide married to Maria Rosa - October 30, 1744
>   Manuel son of Manuel Avila de Bettencourt and Catharina de Sousa de Athaide
>   Maria Rosa  daughter of Manuel de Conde Pays (deceased) and Isabel Novas da 
> Camera (believe this is the same couple listed above in #1)
> 
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/GRA-SC-LUZ-C-1741-1798/GRA-SC-LUZ-C-1741-1798_item1/P15.html
>   (page 1) Bottom right
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/GRA-SC-LUZ-C-1741-1798/GRA-SC-LUZ-C-1741-1798_item1/P16.html
>  (page 2) top left
> 
> On the 2nd page it says they are all of ??? da Santa Maria...I can't tell 
> if they are talking about the Island of Santa Maria or another community on 
> Graciosa.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help provided. (as usual, any/all help greatly 
> appreciated)
> 
> Lee Estep, 
> Oak Hill, WV
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with two marriages records in Luz, Santa Cruz, Graciosa

[JR]

Not really odd, it is a small island after all. I hope you noticed one of 
the witnesses was Manoel Pereira Maya. 

Lee, out of curiosity which Joao da Conde did you link up to? I have been 
following this post and find the profusion of what I know to be noble 
names, astounding. Besides those mentioned already, I note many of these 
have Camara and/or Bettencourt in their full names or ancestry and these 
are surely from noble ancestry. Quite amazing.

JR

On Friday, September 26, 2014 3:06:54 PM UTC-4, John Athayde wrote:
>
> Lee -
>
> Not sure on Santa Maria, as most of my line (Graciosa-based) was in the 
> Santa Cruz or Guadalupe areas of the island (Graciosa). Really odd 
> correlation - I’ve got in my line
>
> I might have Manuel Pereira’s brother in my line, as I have Manuel 
> Espinola de Bettencourt (b 1683/84) married to D. Catarina de Ataíde ( feb 
> 1683 - ?). They are my sixth great grandparents. Avila and Conde are also 
> in my line, but more recent. 
>
> Cheers,
> John Athayde
> (not too far away from you in Charlottesville, VA)
>
> On May 6, 2014, at 11:52 PM, Lee > 
> wrote:
>
> I need a little help with the two marriage records listed below; one is 
> from 1706 and the other is for their daughter Maria Rosa in 1744.
>
> #1 - top left
>
> Manuel de Conde Pays married to Isabel Diero?  
>  Manuel son of Manuel de Conde Pays and Maria Goncalvez (or Gonsalvez?)
>  Maria daughter of Manuel Dornellas da Camera (or is Camara the proper 
> spelling?) and Caterina Novas
> Married January 2, 1706. 
> s it Dicero?
>
> *Need help confirming Isabel's surname of Diero or is it Dicero?*
>
>
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/GRA-SC-LUZ-C-1702-1741/GRA-SC-LUZ-C-1702-1741_item1/P14.html
>
> #2 Bottom right of 1st image and top left of 2nd image
>
> Manuel Pereira Athaide married to Maria Rosa - October 30, 1744
>   Manuel son of Manuel Avila de Bettencourt and Catharina de Sousa de 
> Athaide
>   Maria Rosa  daughter of Manuel de Conde Pays (deceased) and Isabel Novas 
> da Camera (believe this is the same couple listed above in #1)
>
>
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/GRA-SC-LUZ-C-1741-1798/GRA-SC-LUZ-C-1741-1798_item1/P15.html
>  
>  (page 1) Bottom right
>
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/GRA-SC-LUZ-C-1741-1798/GRA-SC-LUZ-C-1741-1798_item1/P16.html
>  
> (page 2) top left
>
> *On the 2nd page it says they are all of ??? da Santa Maria...I can't 
> tell if they are talking about the Island of Santa Maria or another 
> community on Graciosa.*
>
> Thanks in advance for any help provided. (as usual, any/all help greatly 
> appreciated)
>
> Lee Estep, 
> Oak Hill, WV
>
>
>
> -- 
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>
>
>

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RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Rocha in Flores_ help with translation (one word that might unlock clues)

[Hermano C. Pires]

Quickly it looks like Sao Pedro, Terceira.
Hermano
 
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 07:39:33 -0700
From: mufflev...@gmail.com
To: azores@googlegroups.com
Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Rocha in Flores_ help with translation (one word 
that might unlock clues)

Hello Everyone- I'm interested in the ancestry of Antonio Ignacio Rocha (b. 
1823 Santa Cruz, Matriz, Flores, d. 1878, Ribeira Grande, Matriz, Sao Miguel).
I found his grandparents marriage record (see link below)Jose Ignacio da Rocha 
and Rita Joaquina 
(1774)http://www.culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/FLR-SC-SANTACRUZ-C-1744-1808/FLR-SC-SANTACRUZ-C-1744-1808_item1/P122.html

I'm translating the document and am having some trouble reading the name of the 
island where Jose's parents (Manuel and Francisca) are from.It almost looks 
like Terlegoa - ha! could it be Terceira? If anyone has a quick moment to help, 
that would be wonderful. 
LM









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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Help linking Pai Incognitos in Ponta Delgada, Flores

[luiznoia .]

I believe that Pedro and Monica share the same mother.

 I think Claudia died young as no other records are found for her, and that
the mother is the same, that Maria Coelha and the Cura Domingo Bernardo had
died in the
ten years since Monica's birth

I'm looking at the padrinhos and witnesses on the records



*Pedro*- 1793- Manuel Valdao e Francisca Coelha, *padrinhos*.
Belchior Roiz, Caetano Coelho *testigos*
*Cura* Domingo Bernardo da Silveira

*Monica*-1796-  Manuel Valadao e sua mulher Francisca Coelha *padrinhos,*
  Belchior Roiz, Manuel Roiz,* testigos*
*Cura *Domingo
Bernardo da Silveira

*Claudia*-1806- Raimundo Jose Coelho *padrinho, *
  Caetano Coelho, *testigo  *
   *Cura* Antonio Lourenco


Here's *Pedro* on a marriage record:

*Pedro José de Avelar* [n. Ponta Delgada, Santa Cruz das Flores, f.º de pai
incógnito e de Florência Maria]

 c. 1813.02.18 c. Úrsula Joaquina [f.ª de pai incógnito e de Isabel Maria].


Here's *Monica *on a marriage record:

João Pimentel Canhoto [f.º de Manuel Pimentel Canhoto e de Inácia Rosa]

 c. 1816.08.12 c. *Mónica Coelho* [n. Ponta Delgada, Santa Cruz das Flores,
f.ª de pai incógnito e de Florência Rosa].




Marriage record from Ponta Delgada for Padrinhos:

*Manuel Valadão* [f.º de João Valadão e de Maria Valadão]
c. 1769.04.04
 *Francisca Coelho* [f.ª de João Rodrigues e de Maria Coelho].


*Testigo Raimundo Jose Coelho* on a marriage record:


*Raimundo José Coelho* [f.º de Pedro Coelho e de Bárbara Maria]
 .
1799.08.01 c. Emerenciana da Conceição [f.ª de Manuel Furtado e de Mariana
Coelho, ambos j. d.].


*Testigo Caetano Coelho* on a  Ponta Delgada  marriage record:

Manuel Joaquim de Avelar [n. Corvo, f.º de *Caetano Coelho* e de Helena de
Freitas]

 c. 1801.09.20 c. Rosa Joaquina de Freitas [f.ª de Manuel Coelho e de
Mariana de Freitas].



 note the "de Avelar' surname shared by Pedro  and Caetano's son



Eric Edgar





On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 6:44 AM,  wrote:

> Maria Natalia,  you are right.
>
> I can say I have seen this countless times from the 1700s forward on
> Terceira and Pico. If I were to pay attention to it elsewhere, I'm sure
> other places could be included, like Sao Miguel where I suspect you saw it.
>
> I'm not arguing one way or another about Joao's ancestral line. That takes
> in-depth study which he has done. But it certainly was a fact freed slaves
> were married to other regular citizens in the community. In fact, I have an
> ancestor from Sao Bento, Terceira whose son or daughter married the child
> of a slave. This was about 1700, if I recall.
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>   Original Message 
> Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Help linking Pai Incognitos in Ponta
> Delgada, Flores
> From: mnk 
> Date: Fri, September 26, 2014 5:06 am
> To: azores@googlegroups.com
>
> I just want to say that I have seen a marriage of a slave to a free
> person. I can't remember what village I was searching when I saw it, but it
> was possibly Ginetes. I just remember because I had never seen that before.
> Maybe the priest in your case was progressive or anti-slavery so he did not
> mention race or status of the women.
> MNK
>
>
>  --
> For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail
> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at
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> membership."
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with two marriages records in Luz, Santa Cruz, Graciosa

[Lee]

JR and John Athayde- 

The ancestors of Joao Correa de Mendoca have/making me literally insane...lol

JR, you mentioned manoel Pereira Maia/Maya. If he's the one who married maria 
de Conde do Rozario daughter of manoel de zoned Pais and Maria de Mendoca he is 
one of my cousins direct ancestors as well through their daughter Maris Josefa 
d Conde who married Mathias Jose Dornellas on May 3 , 1773 in Luz.  I count the 
surnames of Bettencourt at least 11 times, de Conde at least 11 times, Athayde 
3 times and others such as Mendonca, Hortins (Ortins), Novais, Vaz Sodre (not 
sure if that is two separate names), de Aviz, Pais/Pays, Souza, Camara, 
Gonsalves, Siro, Correa, Miranda, Picano, Botelho, Espinola, Fernandes, 
Maia/Maya, Deiro, Avila, Melo, Medina, Dornellas, Pereira, Luz, Furtada, 
Grinde, Alvarez, Codts and Netta so far.

I think I'll type a list like Eliseu did,that will help clear things up.

Also, JR you asked about which Joao de Conde Nadine is descended from - thee 
aware actually two in her line:

The Joao de Conde who a,arrived Dona. Aria from Praia and the is Joao de Conde 
Pais/Pays born about 2658 who married Maria de Novais de Eyre (Deiro) born 
about 1659 -  he died April 20, 1739 and was the child of Manoel de Conde Sodre 
and Aba  Go Salves and she Maris de  Novais died December 12, 1739 and was the 
child of Manoel Dornellas da Camara and Catherina  Novais de Eyre (Deiro).

Sorry for the long post, it's just this family is so complicated, the same 
names over and over in some cases.

Lee

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with two marriages records in Luz, Santa Cruz, Graciosa

[John Athayde]

I’m also seeing lots of names and I believe that many of these families would 
tack 4 or 5 together. I’ve got my great-great grandmother (D. Adeliade Isable 
de Athaíde do Conde) listed as just Athaide, Ataide, Conde, and sometimes both. 
In many cases the Athayde name passed down on the mothers side to my ancestor. 

I’ve found many of those same names (Espinola, Miranda, da Cota, dde Sousa) and 
some like de Quadros, Alvares, de Vilalobos. I’ve gotten back from Catarina De 
Ataíde two more generations to Maria Rebelo de Ataíde (d 20 Apr 1700) but the 
line stops there. I had João Ventura looking into it, but there’s some records 
missing online as of the last time he looked and we’re not able to track the 
name (Ataíde) to the mainland yet. 

Based on your experience, I feel that I may be losing more hair in the near 
future as I try to dig deeper! :)

Thanks Lee!

Cheers
J

On Sep 26, 2014, at 8:19 PM, Lee  wrote:

> JR and John Athayde- 
> 
> The ancestors of Joao Correa de Mendoca have/making me literally insane...lol
> 
> JR, you mentioned manoel Pereira Maia/Maya. If he's the one who married maria 
> de Conde do Rozario daughter of manoel de zoned Pais and Maria de Mendoca he 
> is one of my cousins direct ancestors as well through their daughter Maris 
> Josefa d Conde who married Mathias Jose Dornellas on May 3 , 1773 in Luz.  I 
> count the surnames of Bettencourt at least 11 times, de Conde at least 11 
> times, Athayde 3 times and others such as Mendonca, Hortins (Ortins), Novais, 
> Vaz Sodre (not sure if that is two separate names), de Aviz, Pais/Pays, 
> Souza, Camara, Gonsalves, Siro, Correa, Miranda, Picano, Botelho, Espinola, 
> Fernandes, Maia/Maya, Deiro, Avila, Melo, Medina, Dornellas, Pereira, Luz, 
> Furtada, Grinde, Alvarez, Codts and Netta so far.
> 
> I think I'll type a list like Eliseu did,that will help clear things up.
> 
> Also, JR you asked about which Joao de Conde Nadine is descended from - thee 
> aware actually two in her line:
> 
> The Joao de Conde who a,arrived Dona. Aria from Praia and the is Joao de 
> Conde Pais/Pays born about 2658 who married Maria de Novais de Eyre (Deiro) 
> born about 1659 -  he died April 20, 1739 and was the child of Manoel de 
> Conde Sodre and Aba  Go Salves and she Maris de  Novais died December 12, 
> 1739 and was the child of Manoel Dornellas da Camara and Catherina  Novais de 
> Eyre (Deiro).
> 
> Sorry for the long post, it's just this family is so complicated, the same 
> names over and over in some cases.
> 
> Lee
> 
> -- 
> For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail 
> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at 
> http://groups.google.com/group/Azores.  Click in the blue area on the right 
> that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership."
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with two marriages records in Luz, Santa Cruz, Graciosa

[JR]

I could be wrong, but I thought there was an important work published on 
the families of Graciosa. You should ask Joao Ventura about that.

JR

On Friday, September 26, 2014 9:10:03 PM UTC-4, John Athayde wrote:
>
> I’m also seeing lots of names and I believe that many of these families 
> would tack 4 or 5 together. I’ve got my great-great grandmother (D. 
> Adeliade Isable de Athaíde do Conde) listed as just Athaide, Ataide, Conde, 
> and sometimes both. In many cases the Athayde name passed down on the 
> mothers side to my ancestor. 
>
> I’ve found many of those same names (Espinola, Miranda, da Cota, dde 
> Sousa) and some like de Quadros, Alvares, de Vilalobos. I’ve gotten back 
> from Catarina De Ataíde two more generations to Maria Rebelo de Ataíde (d 
> 20 Apr 1700) but the line stops there. I had João Ventura looking into it, 
> but there’s some records missing online as of the last time he looked and 
> we’re not able to track the name (Ataíde) to the mainland yet. 
>
> Based on your experience, I feel that I may be losing more hair in the 
> near future as I try to dig deeper! :) 
>
> Thanks Lee! 
>
> Cheers 
> J 
>
> On Sep 26, 2014, at 8:19 PM, Lee > 
> wrote: 
>
> > JR and John Athayde- 
> > 
> > The ancestors of Joao Correa de Mendoca have/making me literally 
> insane...lol 
> > 
> > JR, you mentioned manoel Pereira Maia/Maya. If he's the one who married 
> maria de Conde do Rozario daughter of manoel de zoned Pais and Maria de 
> Mendoca he is one of my cousins direct ancestors as well through their 
> daughter Maris Josefa d Conde who married Mathias Jose Dornellas on May 3 , 
> 1773 in Luz.  I count the surnames of Bettencourt at least 11 times, de 
> Conde at least 11 times, Athayde 3 times and others such as Mendonca, 
> Hortins (Ortins), Novais, Vaz Sodre (not sure if that is two separate 
> names), de Aviz, Pais/Pays, Souza, Camara, Gonsalves, Siro, Correa, 
> Miranda, Picano, Botelho, Espinola, Fernandes, Maia/Maya, Deiro, Avila, 
> Melo, Medina, Dornellas, Pereira, Luz, Furtada, Grinde, Alvarez, Codts and 
> Netta so far. 
> > 
> > I think I'll type a list like Eliseu did,that will help clear things up. 
> > 
> > Also, JR you asked about which Joao de Conde Nadine is descended from - 
> thee aware actually two in her line: 
> > 
> > The Joao de Conde who a,arrived Dona. Aria from Praia and the is Joao de 
> Conde Pais/Pays born about 2658 who married Maria de Novais de Eyre (Deiro) 
> born about 1659 -  he died April 20, 1739 and was the child of Manoel de 
> Conde Sodre and Aba  Go Salves and she Maris de  Novais died December 12, 
> 1739 and was the child of Manoel Dornellas da Camara and Catherina  Novais 
> de Eyre (Deiro). 
> > 
> > Sorry for the long post, it's just this family is so complicated, the 
> same names over and over in some cases. 
> > 
> > Lee 
> > 
> > -- 
> > For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail 
> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at 
> http://groups.google.com/group/Azores.  Click in the blue area on the 
> right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my 
> membership." 
> > --- 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. 
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an email to azores+un...@googlegroups.com . 
> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores. 
>
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Help linking Pai Incognitos in Ponta Delgada, Flores

[Kawika322]

Eric, Doug, Joao, 

Thanks for all of the information you provided on the pai incognito 
details. Since Pedro Jose de Avelar is my direct ancestor, this is 
particularly interesting. This family line has a lot in mysteries in the 
records. As Joao mentioned, It is hard to say if Claudia is the sibling of 
Pedro and Monica with just that one record, but it does bring up some 
interesting details. 

I have yet to find the death record of the mother Florencia Maria also. 
That record could hopefully bring some more insight into the situation, as 
to her specific place of birth and age. I have also not found anything on 
the mother of Florencia, only referred to as Maria "of" Corvo. Florencia is 
also a pai incognito so more mysteries await, lol. 

Also, I wonder what the significance of the Avelar surname is? Where did it 
come from? What it possibly in reference to the pai incognito? or maybe 
from the mother's side?

For Pedro, I have yet to find his death record, which is interesting. He 
was married in Nossa Senhora do Rosario, Lajes de Flores and his children 
were born in that parish. I have search quite a bit through the obitos in 
that parish but haven't found him yet.

One thing I wonder is that if Pedro's death still cannot be found, it may 
be possible that he made his way to California with some of the family back 
in 1868 or 1869. I know it would be a long shot, but after the death of 
Pedro's son-in-law Joao Antonio de Freitas Mendonca (my g.g.g grandfather) 
in Dec 1868, Pedro's grandson Francisco Pedro Freitas (son of Joao de 
Freitas Mendonca) immigrated to California between 1868 and 1869. Pedro may 
have accompanied them. He would have been pretty old by then though, so who 
knows. In the 1870 census in Brooklyn Township, Oakland, California, 
Francisco (Frank) Pedro Freitas shows up along with a Joseph Pedro who is 
older and could be Pedro Jose Avelar, but I cannot say either way. 


Anyways, I digress..the name "Pedro" seems to have been important in our 
family and stuck around for quite a while. My g.g. grandfather was Antone 
Pedro Freitas (grandson of Pedro Jose Avelar), and his brother was Jose 
Freitas Pedro. The brother actually used Pedro as his surname for some 
time. Antone Pedro Freitas also had a son name Pedro (Peter) who died very 
young. So it is possible that Pedro Jose Avelar was close to family and 
hung around for a while, lol..

I would appreciate any of your thoughts Doug, Eric, and Joao, since your 
wife and I share this family connection.

 David


On Friday, September 26, 2014 6:44:22 AM UTC-7, Doug da Rocha Holmes wrote:
>
> Maria Natalia,  you are right.
>
> I can say I have seen this countless times from the 1700s forward on 
> Terceira and Pico. If I were to pay attention to it elsewhere, I'm sure 
> other places could be included, like Sao Miguel where I suspect you saw it.
>
> I'm not arguing one way or another about Joao's ancestral line. That takes 
> in-depth study which he has done. But it certainly was a fact freed slaves 
> were married to other regular citizens in the community. In fact, I have an 
> ancestor from Sao Bento, Terceira whose son or daughter married the child 
> of a slave. This was about 1700, if I recall.
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>   Original Message 
> Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Help linking Pai Incognitos in Ponta
> Delgada, Flores
> From: mnk >
> Date: Fri, September 26, 2014 5:06 am
> To: azo...@googlegroups.com 
>
> I just want to say that I have seen a marriage of a slave to a free 
> person. I can't remember what village I was searching when I saw it, but it 
> was possibly Ginetes. I just remember because I had never seen that before. 
> Maybe the priest in your case was progressive or anti-slavery so he did not 
> mention race or status of the women.
> MNK
>   
>  
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with two marriages records in Luz, Santa Cruz, Graciosa

[Kawika322]

Lee, JR, and John, 

It would be interesting to collaborate with all of you and see if we have 
connecting Graciosa lines. I too have many Conde's, and Ataide's in my 
family tree, mostly from Sao Matheus and Luz. 

There is a Genealogias de Graciosa por Matheus Machado Fagundes on the 
Cultural Azores website:

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/GENEALOGIAS-GRACIOSA/GENEALOGIAS-GRACIOSA_item1/index.html

There also was another person named Oriolando Silva (who has passed away I 
believe in the last decade or so) who supposedly did a lot of work and 
research on many or the majority of families on Graciosa. Maybe both Joao 
Ventura's would have more information on this. 

   David



On Friday, September 26, 2014 7:21:20 PM UTC-7, JR wrote:
>
> I could be wrong, but I thought there was an important work published on 
> the families of Graciosa. You should ask Joao Ventura about that.
>
> JR
>
> On Friday, September 26, 2014 9:10:03 PM UTC-4, John Athayde wrote:
>>
>> I’m also seeing lots of names and I believe that many of these families 
>> would tack 4 or 5 together. I’ve got my great-great grandmother (D. 
>> Adeliade Isable de Athaíde do Conde) listed as just Athaide, Ataide, Conde, 
>> and sometimes both. In many cases the Athayde name passed down on the 
>> mothers side to my ancestor. 
>>
>> I’ve found many of those same names (Espinola, Miranda, da Cota, dde 
>> Sousa) and some like de Quadros, Alvares, de Vilalobos. I’ve gotten back 
>> from Catarina De Ataíde two more generations to Maria Rebelo de Ataíde (d 
>> 20 Apr 1700) but the line stops there. I had João Ventura looking into it, 
>> but there’s some records missing online as of the last time he looked and 
>> we’re not able to track the name (Ataíde) to the mainland yet. 
>>
>> Based on your experience, I feel that I may be losing more hair in the 
>> near future as I try to dig deeper! :) 
>>
>> Thanks Lee! 
>>
>> Cheers 
>> J 
>>
>> On Sep 26, 2014, at 8:19 PM, Lee  wrote: 
>>
>> > JR and John Athayde- 
>> > 
>> > The ancestors of Joao Correa de Mendoca have/making me literally 
>> insane...lol 
>> > 
>> > JR, you mentioned manoel Pereira Maia/Maya. If he's the one who married 
>> maria de Conde do Rozario daughter of manoel de zoned Pais and Maria de 
>> Mendoca he is one of my cousins direct ancestors as well through their 
>> daughter Maris Josefa d Conde who married Mathias Jose Dornellas on May 3 , 
>> 1773 in Luz.  I count the surnames of Bettencourt at least 11 times, de 
>> Conde at least 11 times, Athayde 3 times and others such as Mendonca, 
>> Hortins (Ortins), Novais, Vaz Sodre (not sure if that is two separate 
>> names), de Aviz, Pais/Pays, Souza, Camara, Gonsalves, Siro, Correa, 
>> Miranda, Picano, Botelho, Espinola, Fernandes, Maia/Maya, Deiro, Avila, 
>> Melo, Medina, Dornellas, Pereira, Luz, Furtada, Grinde, Alvarez, Codts and 
>> Netta so far. 
>> > 
>> > I think I'll type a list like Eliseu did,that will help clear things 
>> up. 
>> > 
>> > Also, JR you asked about which Joao de Conde Nadine is descended from - 
>> thee aware actually two in her line: 
>> > 
>> > The Joao de Conde who a,arrived Dona. Aria from Praia and the is Joao 
>> de Conde Pais/Pays born about 2658 who married Maria de Novais de Eyre 
>> (Deiro) born about 1659 -  he died April 20, 1739 and was the child of 
>> Manoel de Conde Sodre and Aba  Go Salves and she Maris de  Novais died 
>> December 12, 1739 and was the child of Manoel Dornellas da Camara and 
>> Catherina  Novais de Eyre (Deiro). 
>> > 
>> > Sorry for the long post, it's just this family is so complicated, the 
>> same names over and over in some cases. 
>> > 
>> > Lee 
>> > 
>> > -- 
>> > For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail 
>> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at 
>> http://groups.google.com/group/Azores.  Click in the blue area on the 
>> right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my 
>> membership." 
>> > --- 
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>> Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. 
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>> an email to azores+un...@googlegroups.com. 
>> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores. 
>>
>>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with two marriages records in Luz, Santa Cruz, Graciosa

[Cheri Mello]

I think that the important Graciosa work is online.

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/ad/

Click on Ligação ao Arquivo Digital 

Right now it just spins and spins.  But if I'm in the right area, I've seen
Carlos Machado's work (S.Miguel), the Graciosa stuff, some Terceira stuff,
etc.  I can't tell right now because it won't open.

Cheri

On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Kawika322  wrote:

> Lee, JR, and John,
>
> It would be interesting to collaborate with all of you and see if we have
> connecting Graciosa lines. I too have many Conde's, and Ataide's in my
> family tree, mostly from Sao Matheus and Luz.
>
> There is a Genealogias de Graciosa por Matheus Machado Fagundes on the
> Cultural Azores website:
>
>
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/GENEALOGIAS-GRACIOSA/GENEALOGIAS-GRACIOSA_item1/index.html
>
> There also was another person named Oriolando Silva (who has passed away I
> believe in the last decade or so) who supposedly did a lot of work and
> research on many or the majority of families on Graciosa. Maybe both Joao
> Ventura's would have more information on this.
>
>David
>
>
>
> On Friday, September 26, 2014 7:21:20 PM UTC-7, JR wrote:
>>
>> I could be wrong, but I thought there was an important work published on
>> the families of Graciosa. You should ask Joao Ventura about that.
>>
>> JR
>>
>> On Friday, September 26, 2014 9:10:03 PM UTC-4, John Athayde wrote:
>>>
>>> I’m also seeing lots of names and I believe that many of these families
>>> would tack 4 or 5 together. I’ve got my great-great grandmother (D.
>>> Adeliade Isable de Athaíde do Conde) listed as just Athaide, Ataide, Conde,
>>> and sometimes both. In many cases the Athayde name passed down on the
>>> mothers side to my ancestor.
>>>
>>> I’ve found many of those same names (Espinola, Miranda, da Cota, dde
>>> Sousa) and some like de Quadros, Alvares, de Vilalobos. I’ve gotten back
>>> from Catarina De Ataíde two more generations to Maria Rebelo de Ataíde (d
>>> 20 Apr 1700) but the line stops there. I had João Ventura looking into it,
>>> but there’s some records missing online as of the last time he looked and
>>> we’re not able to track the name (Ataíde) to the mainland yet.
>>>
>>> Based on your experience, I feel that I may be losing more hair in the
>>> near future as I try to dig deeper! :)
>>>
>>> Thanks Lee!
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> J
>>>
>>> On Sep 26, 2014, at 8:19 PM, Lee  wrote:
>>>
>>> > JR and John Athayde-
>>> >
>>> > The ancestors of Joao Correa de Mendoca have/making me literally
>>> insane...lol
>>> >
>>> > JR, you mentioned manoel Pereira Maia/Maya. If he's the one who
>>> married maria de Conde do Rozario daughter of manoel de zoned Pais and
>>> Maria de Mendoca he is one of my cousins direct ancestors as well through
>>> their daughter Maris Josefa d Conde who married Mathias Jose Dornellas on
>>> May 3 , 1773 in Luz.  I count the surnames of Bettencourt at least 11
>>> times, de Conde at least 11 times, Athayde 3 times and others such as
>>> Mendonca, Hortins (Ortins), Novais, Vaz Sodre (not sure if that is two
>>> separate names), de Aviz, Pais/Pays, Souza, Camara, Gonsalves, Siro,
>>> Correa, Miranda, Picano, Botelho, Espinola, Fernandes, Maia/Maya, Deiro,
>>> Avila, Melo, Medina, Dornellas, Pereira, Luz, Furtada, Grinde, Alvarez,
>>> Codts and Netta so far.
>>> >
>>> > I think I'll type a list like Eliseu did,that will help clear things
>>> up.
>>> >
>>> > Also, JR you asked about which Joao de Conde Nadine is descended from
>>> - thee aware actually two in her line:
>>> >
>>> > The Joao de Conde who a,arrived Dona. Aria from Praia and the is Joao
>>> de Conde Pais/Pays born about 2658 who married Maria de Novais de Eyre
>>> (Deiro) born about 1659 -  he died April 20, 1739 and was the child of
>>> Manoel de Conde Sodre and Aba  Go Salves and she Maris de  Novais died
>>> December 12, 1739 and was the child of Manoel Dornellas da Camara and
>>> Catherina  Novais de Eyre (Deiro).
>>> >
>>> > Sorry for the long post, it's just this family is so complicated, the
>>> same names over and over in some cases.
>>> >
>>> > Lee
>>> >
>>> > --
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>>> right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my
>>> membership."
>>> > ---
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with two marriages records in Luz, Santa Cruz, Graciosa

[Kawika322]

I see links for Faial, Sao Miguel and Sao Jorge, under Portugal 
Insular...but no Graciosa.



On Friday, September 26, 2014 7:54:09 PM UTC-7, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> I think that the important Graciosa work is online.
>
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/ad/ 
> 
>
> Click on Ligação ao Arquivo Digital 
>
> Right now it just spins and spins.  But if I'm in the right area, I've 
> seen Carlos Machado's work (S.Miguel), the Graciosa stuff, some Terceira 
> stuff, etc.  I can't tell right now because it won't open.
>
> Cheri
>
> On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Kawika322  > wrote:
>
>> Lee, JR, and John, 
>>
>> It would be interesting to collaborate with all of you and see if we have 
>> connecting Graciosa lines. I too have many Conde's, and Ataide's in my 
>> family tree, mostly from Sao Matheus and Luz. 
>>
>> There is a Genealogias de Graciosa por Matheus Machado Fagundes on the 
>> Cultural Azores website:
>>
>>
>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/GENEALOGIAS-GRACIOSA/GENEALOGIAS-GRACIOSA_item1/index.html
>>
>> There also was another person named Oriolando Silva (who has passed away 
>> I believe in the last decade or so) who supposedly did a lot of work and 
>> research on many or the majority of families on Graciosa. Maybe both Joao 
>> Ventura's would have more information on this. 
>>
>>David
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, September 26, 2014 7:21:20 PM UTC-7, JR wrote:
>>>
>>> I could be wrong, but I thought there was an important work published on 
>>> the families of Graciosa. You should ask Joao Ventura about that.
>>>
>>> JR
>>>
>>> On Friday, September 26, 2014 9:10:03 PM UTC-4, John Athayde wrote:

 I’m also seeing lots of names and I believe that many of these families 
 would tack 4 or 5 together. I’ve got my great-great grandmother (D. 
 Adeliade Isable de Athaíde do Conde) listed as just Athaide, Ataide, 
 Conde, 
 and sometimes both. In many cases the Athayde name passed down on the 
 mothers side to my ancestor. 

 I’ve found many of those same names (Espinola, Miranda, da Cota, dde 
 Sousa) and some like de Quadros, Alvares, de Vilalobos. I’ve gotten back 
 from Catarina De Ataíde two more generations to Maria Rebelo de Ataíde (d 
 20 Apr 1700) but the line stops there. I had João Ventura looking into it, 
 but there’s some records missing online as of the last time he looked and 
 we’re not able to track the name (Ataíde) to the mainland yet. 

 Based on your experience, I feel that I may be losing more hair in the 
 near future as I try to dig deeper! :) 

 Thanks Lee! 

 Cheers 
 J 

 On Sep 26, 2014, at 8:19 PM, Lee  wrote: 

 > JR and John Athayde- 
 > 
 > The ancestors of Joao Correa de Mendoca have/making me literally 
 insane...lol 
 > 
 > JR, you mentioned manoel Pereira Maia/Maya. If he's the one who 
 married maria de Conde do Rozario daughter of manoel de zoned Pais and 
 Maria de Mendoca he is one of my cousins direct ancestors as well through 
 their daughter Maris Josefa d Conde who married Mathias Jose Dornellas on 
 May 3 , 1773 in Luz.  I count the surnames of Bettencourt at least 11 
 times, de Conde at least 11 times, Athayde 3 times and others such as 
 Mendonca, Hortins (Ortins), Novais, Vaz Sodre (not sure if that is two 
 separate names), de Aviz, Pais/Pays, Souza, Camara, Gonsalves, Siro, 
 Correa, Miranda, Picano, Botelho, Espinola, Fernandes, Maia/Maya, Deiro, 
 Avila, Melo, Medina, Dornellas, Pereira, Luz, Furtada, Grinde, Alvarez, 
 Codts and Netta so far. 
 > 
 > I think I'll type a list like Eliseu did,that will help clear things 
 up. 
 > 
 > Also, JR you asked about which Joao de Conde Nadine is descended from 
 - thee aware actually two in her line: 
 > 
 > The Joao de Conde who a,arrived Dona. Aria from Praia and the is Joao 
 de Conde Pais/Pays born about 2658 who married Maria de Novais de Eyre 
 (Deiro) born about 1659 -  he died April 20, 1739 and was the child of 
 Manoel de Conde Sodre and Aba  Go Salves and she Maris de  Novais died 
 December 12, 1739 and was the child of Manoel Dornellas da Camara and 
 Catherina  Novais de Eyre (Deiro). 
 > 
 > Sorry for the long post, it's just this family is so complicated, the 
 same names over and over in some cases. 
 > 
 > Lee 
 > 
 > -- 
 > For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail 
 (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at 
 http://groups.google.com/group/Azores.  Click in the blue area on the 
 right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my 
 membership." 
 > --- 
 > You received this 

Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Help with two marriages records in Luz, Santa Cruz, Graciosa

[Cheri Mello]

Nope, wrong link.
http://www.culturacores.azores.gov.pt/bd/pesquisa/Default.aspx
Click on Genealogies.  Graciosa comes up.
(maybe I'm under Biblioteca Digital now).


Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas,
Achada

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