Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: "Miz" or "Roiz"

[linda]

Thanks so much, Helen! I'm away from home and a reliable internet connection. 
I'll respond properly when I return.

Linda

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: "Miz" or "Roiz"

[hisalv via Azores Genealogy]

Linda
These two Ignacio's are my  husbands G+Grandparents.  I have them as Martins
Helen Salvador
 
 
-Original Message-
From: linda <menesesli...@gmail.com>
To: Azores Genealogy <azores@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Dec 13, 2015 9:16 pm
Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: "Miz" or "Roiz"




Thanks so much for your reply JR.  I can see it that way too.  I will check the 
other records...

...hmm, and I'm back... here's a record written two years later by the same 
priest, Lourenco Gomes:

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737_item1/P103.html

In this case, the groom (again named for his father) is listed in the Marriage 
Index as Manuel Martins.  To my eye, the abbreviation used by the priest again 
looks like Miz, accented.  I think it is the same abbreviation as in the first 
record I linked to.

There are several examples of the abbreviation in this second record.  If you 
wouldn't mind having a look at them, I'd be much obliged.

thanks again,

Linda


On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 8:29:16 PM UTC-8, JR wrote:
I would say Roiz because there is short symbol over the Roiz (the z), and that 
is the usual short form for Rodrigues. However, if you spot Mtz with same 
accent you may have a case. I would still go with Roiz because that is what it 
looks like to me, especially the z.


JR

On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 11:01:09 PM UTC-5, linda wrote:

Hi Group,

I would like your opinions on this record, please:

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737_item1/P89.html

I think the transcriber of the names on this page for the Terceira Marriage 
Index made an error.  According to the index, the marriage should be for 
Ignacio Rodrigues.  But, I believe it says the groom (and his father) to be 
Ignacio Martins.  The priest's M's (as in the M in "Madre Igregia" second to 
bottom line) could easily be mistaken for R's, hence the error.  

I'd very much appreciate more experienced eyes than mine to double check.

many thanks,

Linda




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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: "Miz" or "Roiz"

['Denise' via Azores Genealogy]

Hi Linda,

Even though the first one looks very questionable, I think it's Miz. I enlarged 
it on my tablet and there appear to be only 3 letters.  While the first letter 
looks odd the second two are iz. I don't see an o in there to make it Roiz at 
all. 
In the second example I again see Miz. A few lines down there is Miz again with 
the accent over the z that JR mentioned. 

In my years researching I have worked with both JR and Cheri and agree here 
with JR, keep note of both names until you can work it all out. But you are not 
alone, I too see Miz, we all go through this at some point. 

Good luck!

Denise D'Antona
São Miguel - Nordeste, Nordestinho, Algarvia

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 14, 2015, at 2:49 AM, linda  wrote:
> 
> 
> JR,
> 
> Thank you so much.  I can see the transcription both ways, Miz and Roiz.  
> 
> Here's the context for why I am grappling with this knotty transcription:
> 
> I have a marriage for Josepha Marianna my 5xGGM in Doze Ribeiras, Terceira in 
> 1750.  Her parents are clearly written as "Ignacio Martins" and "Maria 
> Machada."  However, there are no listings for this pair of names in the 
> Terceira Marriage Index. 
> 
> There are three "Inacio Martins"in Doze Ribeiras  (and/or Santa Barbara) in 
> the Index dating to before 1750.  The dates aren't particularly good fits 
> (marriages in 1695, 1734, and 1737) and the wives' names are not right.  
> 
> Maria Machados are a dime a dozen, but Ignacio is one of the less common 
> names so I thought I'd check to see if there were any other Ignacios in 
> Doze/Santa Barbara married to Maria Machados.  The one likely candidate I 
> found was listed as Ignacio Rodrigues m. 1724, and this was the record I 
> asked for help with.  In this record Ignacio's parents are named as "Ignacio 
> Roiz/Miz" and "Maria Glz"
> 
> The Marriage Index has  "Inacio Martins + Maria Gonsalves, Doze Ribeiras, 
> 1695".  With respect to the date, this works well for his parents, if the 
> name in question is Martins.  Of the few (8 or 10) Inacio Rodrigues's in the 
> entire index, none are married to a Maria Gonsalves or even a Maria/Marianna 
> in a likely time period (IIRC).
> 
> So, I'm inclined to see the record in question as fitting into a Martins 
> lineage better than into a Rodrigues one.  But I'm obviously biased, and I do 
> appreciate that my case is tenuous and circumstantial, at best.  My case is 
> also weakened by two of the more experienced members of the group both 
> agreeing the transcription is "Roiz".  Oh well!
> 
> I do need to double check the other two Inacio Martins in Doze (m. 1734 and 
> 1737), and I know I have to collect baptisms to confirm parent-child 
> relationships.   I had hoped to set aside my doubts about whether I had the 
> right marriage record or not, but it will have to remain unknown for now.  
> 
> many, many thanks again for your help and advice,
> 
> Linda
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 9:51:44 PM UTC-8, JR wrote:
>> Yes the second example does look like Miz for Martins. It also has dotted I. 
>> However, the first sample looks more like Roiz to me, with accent over z. In 
>> the first sample, you will see the name Maria clearly showing a well defined 
>> M. In the second sample, it is clearly an Miz with less ambiguity. This has 
>> always been problem even for the great genealogists. What to do? Do your 
>> best and make notation. If you know the name to be Martins and not Roiz, 
>> then you can just make a notation of your findings. If the Martin name is 
>> carried forward without any Roiz, then you have your answer, If both, you 
>> have a problem requiring more work.
>> 
>> JR
>> 
>>> On Monday, December 14, 2015 at 12:16:09 AM UTC-5, linda wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thanks so much for your reply JR.  I can see it that way too.  I will check 
>>> the other records...
>>> 
>>> ...hmm, and I'm back... here's a record written two years later by the same 
>>> priest, Lourenco Gomes:
>>> 
>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737_item1/P103.html
>>> 
>>> In this case, the groom (again named for his father) is listed in the 
>>> Marriage Index as Manuel Martins.  To my eye, the abbreviation used by the 
>>> priest again looks like Miz, accented.  I think it is the same abbreviation 
>>> as in the first record I linked to.
>>> 
>>> There are several examples of the abbreviation in this second record.  If 
>>> you wouldn't mind having a look at them, I'd be much obliged.
>>> 
>>> thanks again,
>>> 
>>> Linda
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 8:29:16 PM UTC-8, JR wrote:
 I would say Roiz because there is short symbol over the Roiz (the z), and 
 that is the usual short form for Rodrigues. However, if you spot Mtz with 
 same accent you may have a case. I would still go with Roiz because that 
 is what it looks like to me, especially the z.
 
 JR
 
> On 

Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: "Miz" or "Roiz"

[linda]

Thanks Denise,

I appreciate it, and I agree. 

I'll look for more evidence and follow the direction it points. 

Best wishes, 

Linda

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: "Miz" or "Roiz"

[JR]

I would say Roiz because there is short symbol over the Roiz (the z), and 
that is the usual short form for Rodrigues. However, if you spot Mtz with 
same accent you may have a case. I would still go with Roiz because that is 
what it looks like to me, especially the z.

JR

On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 11:01:09 PM UTC-5, linda wrote:
>
>
> Hi Group,
>
> I would like your opinions on this record, please:
>
>
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737_item1/P89.html
>
> I think the transcriber of the names on this page for the Terceira 
> Marriage Index made an error.  According to the index, the marriage should 
> be for Ignacio Rodrigues.  But, I believe it says the groom (and his 
> father) to be Ignacio Martins.  The priest's M's (as in the M in "Madre 
> Igregia" second to bottom line) could easily be mistaken for R's, hence the 
> error.  
>
> I'd very much appreciate more experienced eyes than mine to double check.
>
> many thanks,
>
> Linda
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: "Miz" or "Roiz"

[linda]

Thanks Cheri,

I can see it that way too, but if you would have a look at this record:

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737_item1/P103.html

which is indexed as being for Manuel Martins, and compare it to the first 
record (indexed for Ignacio Rodrigues), I would very much value your 
opinion as to whether the abbreviations written by the priest are the same.

with thanks again,

Linda


On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 9:05:19 PM UTC-8, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> Ignacio Roiz,which is an abbreviation for Rodrigues.
>
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada
>
> On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 8:29 PM, JR  
> wrote:
>
>> I would say Roiz because there is short symbol over the Roiz (the z), and 
>> that is the usual short form for Rodrigues. However, if you spot Mtz with 
>> same accent you may have a case. I would still go with Roiz because that is 
>> what it looks like to me, especially the z.
>>
>> JR
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 11:01:09 PM UTC-5, linda wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Group,
>>>
>>> I would like your opinions on this record, please:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737_item1/P89.html
>>>
>>> I think the transcriber of the names on this page for the Terceira 
>>> Marriage Index made an error.  According to the index, the marriage should 
>>> be for Ignacio Rodrigues.  But, I believe it says the groom (and his 
>>> father) to be Ignacio Martins.  The priest's M's (as in the M in "Madre 
>>> Igregia" second to bottom line) could easily be mistaken for R's, hence the 
>>> error.  
>>>
>>> I'd very much appreciate more experienced eyes than mine to double check.
>>>
>>> many thanks,
>>>
>>> Linda
>>>
>> -- 
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>> membership."
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>>
>
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: "Miz" or "Roiz"

[Cheri Mello]

Ignacio Roiz,which is an abbreviation for Rodrigues.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas,
Achada

On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 8:29 PM, JR  wrote:

> I would say Roiz because there is short symbol over the Roiz (the z), and
> that is the usual short form for Rodrigues. However, if you spot Mtz with
> same accent you may have a case. I would still go with Roiz because that is
> what it looks like to me, especially the z.
>
> JR
>
>
> On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 11:01:09 PM UTC-5, linda wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Group,
>>
>> I would like your opinions on this record, please:
>>
>>
>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737_item1/P89.html
>>
>> I think the transcriber of the names on this page for the Terceira
>> Marriage Index made an error.  According to the index, the marriage should
>> be for Ignacio Rodrigues.  But, I believe it says the groom (and his
>> father) to be Ignacio Martins.  The priest's M's (as in the M in "Madre
>> Igregia" second to bottom line) could easily be mistaken for R's, hence the
>> error.
>>
>> I'd very much appreciate more experienced eyes than mine to double check.
>>
>> many thanks,
>>
>> Linda
>>
> --
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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: "Miz" or "Roiz"

[linda]

Thanks so much for your reply JR.  I can see it that way too.  I will check 
the other records...

...hmm, and I'm back... here's a record written two years later by the same 
priest, Lourenco Gomes:

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737_item1/P103.html

In this case, the groom (again named for his father) is listed in the 
Marriage Index as Manuel Martins.  To my eye, the abbreviation used by the 
priest again looks like Miz, accented.  I think it is the same abbreviation 
as in the first record I linked to.

There are several examples of the abbreviation in this second record.  If 
you wouldn't mind having a look at them, I'd be much obliged.

thanks again,

Linda


On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 8:29:16 PM UTC-8, JR wrote:
>
> I would say Roiz because there is short symbol over the Roiz (the z), and 
> that is the usual short form for Rodrigues. However, if you spot Mtz with 
> same accent you may have a case. I would still go with Roiz because that is 
> what it looks like to me, especially the z.
>
> JR
>
> On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 11:01:09 PM UTC-5, linda wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Group,
>>
>> I would like your opinions on this record, please:
>>
>>
>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737_item1/P89.html
>>
>> I think the transcriber of the names on this page for the Terceira 
>> Marriage Index made an error.  According to the index, the marriage should 
>> be for Ignacio Rodrigues.  But, I believe it says the groom (and his 
>> father) to be Ignacio Martins.  The priest's M's (as in the M in "Madre 
>> Igregia" second to bottom line) could easily be mistaken for R's, hence the 
>> error.  
>>
>> I'd very much appreciate more experienced eyes than mine to double check.
>>
>> many thanks,
>>
>> Linda
>>
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: "Miz" or "Roiz"

[JR]

Yes the second example does look like Miz for Martins. It also has dotted 
I. However, the first sample looks more like Roiz to me, with accent over 
z. In the first sample, you will see the name Maria clearly showing a well 
defined M. In the second sample, it is clearly an Miz with less ambiguity. 
This has always been problem even for the great genealogists. What to do? 
Do your best and make notation. If you know the name to be Martins and not 
Roiz, then you can just make a notation of your findings. If the Martin 
name is carried forward without any Roiz, then you have your answer, If 
both, you have a problem requiring more work.

JR

On Monday, December 14, 2015 at 12:16:09 AM UTC-5, linda wrote:
>
>
> Thanks so much for your reply JR.  I can see it that way too.  I will 
> check the other records...
>
> ...hmm, and I'm back... here's a record written two years later by the 
> same priest, Lourenco Gomes:
>
>
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737_item1/P103.html
>
> In this case, the groom (again named for his father) is listed in the 
> Marriage Index as Manuel Martins.  To my eye, the abbreviation used by the 
> priest again looks like Miz, accented.  I think it is the same abbreviation 
> as in the first record I linked to.
>
> There are several examples of the abbreviation in this second record.  If 
> you wouldn't mind having a look at them, I'd be much obliged.
>
> thanks again,
>
> Linda
>
>
> On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 8:29:16 PM UTC-8, JR wrote:
>>
>> I would say Roiz because there is short symbol over the Roiz (the z), and 
>> that is the usual short form for Rodrigues. However, if you spot Mtz with 
>> same accent you may have a case. I would still go with Roiz because that is 
>> what it looks like to me, especially the z.
>>
>> JR
>>
>> On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 11:01:09 PM UTC-5, linda wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Group,
>>>
>>> I would like your opinions on this record, please:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737_item1/P89.html
>>>
>>> I think the transcriber of the names on this page for the Terceira 
>>> Marriage Index made an error.  According to the index, the marriage should 
>>> be for Ignacio Rodrigues.  But, I believe it says the groom (and his 
>>> father) to be Ignacio Martins.  The priest's M's (as in the M in "Madre 
>>> Igregia" second to bottom line) could easily be mistaken for R's, hence the 
>>> error.  
>>>
>>> I'd very much appreciate more experienced eyes than mine to double check.
>>>
>>> many thanks,
>>>
>>> Linda
>>>
>>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: "Miz" or "Roiz"

[linda]

JR,

Thank you so much.  I can see the transcription both ways, Miz and Roiz.  

Here's the context for why I am grappling with this knotty transcription:

I have a marriage for Josepha Marianna my 5xGGM in Doze Ribeiras, Terceira 
in 1750.  Her parents are clearly written as "Ignacio Martins" and "Maria 
Machada."  However, there are no listings for this pair of names in the 
Terceira Marriage Index. 

There are three "Inacio Martins"in Doze Ribeiras  (and/or Santa Barbara) in 
the Index dating to before 1750.  The dates aren't particularly good fits 
(marriages in 1695, 1734, and 1737) and the wives' names are not right.  

Maria Machados are a dime a dozen, but Ignacio is one of the less common 
names so I thought I'd check to see if there were any other Ignacios in 
Doze/Santa Barbara married to Maria Machados.  The one likely candidate I 
found was listed as Ignacio Rodrigues m. 1724, and this was the record I 
asked for help with.  In this record Ignacio's parents are named as 
"Ignacio Roiz/Miz" and "Maria Glz"

The Marriage Index has  "Inacio Martins + Maria Gonsalves, Doze Ribeiras, 
1695".  With respect to the date, this works well for his parents, if the 
name in question is Martins.  Of the few (8 or 10) Inacio Rodrigues's in 
the entire index, none are married to a Maria Gonsalves or even a 
Maria/Marianna in a likely time period (IIRC).

So, I'm inclined to see the record in question as fitting into a Martins 
lineage better than into a Rodrigues one.  But I'm obviously biased, and I 
do appreciate that my case is tenuous and circumstantial, at best.  My case 
is also weakened by two of the more experienced members of the group both 
agreeing the transcription is "Roiz".  Oh well!

I do need to double check the other two Inacio Martins in Doze (m. 1734 and 
1737), and I know I have to collect baptisms to confirm parent-child 
relationships.   I had hoped to set aside my doubts about whether I had the 
right marriage record or not, but it will have to remain unknown for now.  

many, many thanks again for your help and advice,

Linda




On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 9:51:44 PM UTC-8, JR wrote:
>
> Yes the second example does look like Miz for Martins. It also has dotted 
> I. However, the first sample looks more like Roiz to me, with accent over 
> z. In the first sample, you will see the name Maria clearly showing a well 
> defined M. In the second sample, it is clearly an Miz with less ambiguity. 
> This has always been problem even for the great genealogists. What to do? 
> Do your best and make notation. If you know the name to be Martins and not 
> Roiz, then you can just make a notation of your findings. If the Martin 
> name is carried forward without any Roiz, then you have your answer, If 
> both, you have a problem requiring more work.
>
> JR
>
> On Monday, December 14, 2015 at 12:16:09 AM UTC-5, linda wrote:
>>
>>
>> Thanks so much for your reply JR.  I can see it that way too.  I will 
>> check the other records...
>>
>> ...hmm, and I'm back... here's a record written two years later by the 
>> same priest, Lourenco Gomes:
>>
>>
>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737_item1/P103.html
>>
>> In this case, the groom (again named for his father) is listed in the 
>> Marriage Index as Manuel Martins.  To my eye, the abbreviation used by the 
>> priest again looks like Miz, accented.  I think it is the same abbreviation 
>> as in the first record I linked to.
>>
>> There are several examples of the abbreviation in this second record.  If 
>> you wouldn't mind having a look at them, I'd be much obliged.
>>
>> thanks again,
>>
>> Linda
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 8:29:16 PM UTC-8, JR wrote:
>>>
>>> I would say Roiz because there is short symbol over the Roiz (the z), 
>>> and that is the usual short form for Rodrigues. However, if you spot Mtz 
>>> with same accent you may have a case. I would still go with Roiz because 
>>> that is what it looks like to me, especially the z.
>>>
>>> JR
>>>
>>> On Sunday, December 13, 2015 at 11:01:09 PM UTC-5, linda wrote:


 Hi Group,

 I would like your opinions on this record, please:


 http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737/TER-AH-DOZERIBEIRAS-C-1694-1737_item1/P89.html

 I think the transcriber of the names on this page for the Terceira 
 Marriage Index made an error.  According to the index, the marriage should 
 be for Ignacio Rodrigues.  But, I believe it says the groom (and his 
 father) to be Ignacio Martins.  The priest's M's (as in the M in "Madre 
 Igregia" second to bottom line) could easily be mistaken for R's, hence 
 the 
 error.  

 I'd very much appreciate more experienced eyes than mine to double 
 check.

 many thanks,

 Linda

>>>

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