Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[Tanya Smith]

I found this in an academia paper cited below.  pg. 7 talks about secondary
burial.  I am wondering if the Beating of the Body was actually the beating
or patting of the dirt (earth) that covered the body at the secondary
burial.  Just my two cents.

Secondary burial - In many small parterres (burial grounds) the corpses are
buried in ditches made in
the soil, and they are covered with earth at a depth of three or four
inches. The soil
that covers the corpses is left loose, and is not even beaten

This description was probably referred to funerary rites taking place
according to
the mechanisms of secondary burial. Dead bodies buried under small heaps of
loose
soil; corpses not yet decomposed that were recovered so that their clothes
could be
changed; finally, exhumation of partially decayed corpses aimed at
completing the
defleshing process within niches within the walls ...



CITE:  Article Fornaciari, Antonio , Giuffra, Valentina and Pezzini,
Francesco(2010) 'Secondary burial and
mummification practices in the Kingdom of the two Sicilies', Mortality, 15:
3, 223 — 249


Interesting study and research here.

Tanya Smith
Laie, HI



On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 6:27 PM, Cheri Mello  wrote:

> One of the things I learned from that beginning genealogy class when I
> began was:
> Who said it?
> When did they say it?
> How did they know?
>
> So,  Manny says his mom said what her aunt said this story.  OK, so this
> story is being retold and translated.  That answers the WHO.
>
> But WHEN did this aunt say this?  It is something this aunt remembered
> from the age of 5?  A memory is always open to question.  A childhood
> memory seems more so.  And this story is being retold.
>
> HOW did this aunt know?  Did she stand there and watch?
>
> I don't know..."beat the body" brings an image to mind that a stick, bat,
> meat clever, something was taken to the body to basically abuse it.  To me,
> it just doesn't seem right.  Maybe it was a custom to that area?  I thought
> some type of acid (lime?) was used to aid decomposition. To beat a body (or
> a piece of meat - which is muscle) is to tenderize it.  But I don't have
> any experience with beating a piece of meat and observing the composition
> either.   So I concur, maybe "beat" isn't the right word here, but what
> would be the correct word?  I'll have to ask some of the people at the hall.
>
> The body that was dumped in the ocean - sounds like an isolated incident
> to me.
>
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das
> Tainhas, Achada
>
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808.232.1366



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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[Liliana Harris]

Since words have multiple meanings, particularly on translation, could the 
intent of "beat" been different? Keeping in mind that I know absolutely no 
Portuguese... I  found that the most common term for "to beat" is "vencer" *but 
*that word's most common reverse translation is actually not a physical 
beating but rather overcoming, as in showing mastery over or subjugating. 
Just a thought...

On Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:27:12 PM UTC-7, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> One of the things I learned from that beginning genealogy class when I 
> began was:
> Who said it?
> When did they say it?
> How did they know?
>
> So,  Manny says his mom said what her aunt said this story.  OK, so this 
> story is being retold and translated.  That answers the WHO.
>
> But WHEN did this aunt say this?  It is something this aunt remembered 
> from the age of 5?  A memory is always open to question.  A childhood 
> memory seems more so.  And this story is being retold.
>
> HOW did this aunt know?  Did she stand there and watch?
>
> I don't know..."beat the body" brings an image to mind that a stick, bat, 
> meat clever, something was taken to the body to basically abuse it.  To me, 
> it just doesn't seem right.  Maybe it was a custom to that area?  I thought 
> some type of acid (lime?) was used to aid decomposition. To beat a body (or 
> a piece of meat - which is muscle) is to tenderize it.  But I don't have 
> any experience with beating a piece of meat and observing the composition 
> either.   So I concur, maybe "beat" isn't the right word here, but what 
> would be the correct word?  I'll have to ask some of the people at the hall.
>
> The body that was dumped in the ocean - sounds like an isolated incident 
> to me.
>
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada 
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[Cheri Mello]

One of the things I learned from that beginning genealogy class when I
began was:
Who said it?
When did they say it?
How did they know?

So,  Manny says his mom said what her aunt said this story.  OK, so this
story is being retold and translated.  That answers the WHO.

But WHEN did this aunt say this?  It is something this aunt remembered from
the age of 5?  A memory is always open to question.  A childhood memory
seems more so.  And this story is being retold.

HOW did this aunt know?  Did she stand there and watch?

I don't know..."beat the body" brings an image to mind that a stick, bat,
meat clever, something was taken to the body to basically abuse it.  To me,
it just doesn't seem right.  Maybe it was a custom to that area?  I thought
some type of acid (lime?) was used to aid decomposition. To beat a body (or
a piece of meat - which is muscle) is to tenderize it.  But I don't have
any experience with beating a piece of meat and observing the composition
either.   So I concur, maybe "beat" isn't the right word here, but what
would be the correct word?  I'll have to ask some of the people at the hall.

The body that was dumped in the ocean - sounds like an isolated incident to
me.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas,
Achada

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[Manuel Martins]

Spoke with my mother this morning to confirm the story she once told me.

She used to hear from her aunt whom was born in the late 1800, if a 
grave was open after 7 years and the body had not decomposed completely 
the body was blessed by the priest and the "coveiro" (gravedigger) would 
beat the body and reburied it.  She believes that the beating was to 
help speed the decomposition. May be beating is not the correct word here.


As for the body out to sea.  She remembers of a story of someone from 
Madalena with a very bad reputation that was buried twice and after the 
second time the body was still intact it was decided to dump the body in 
the ocean.


As for saints who's body did not decomposes, when opening graves they 
are other signs like the fragrances of flowers.


Manny

On 4/23/2014 7:33 PM, Isabella Baltar wrote:

Manuel,

"...taken out to sea where they would beat the body and dump it in the 
ocean...


Where did you read that? Do you have any information? I really would 
like to learn more about as I never heard this. Even if what you have 
is written in Portuguese, as it is my primary language.


I will appreciate that.

Isabella Baltar
myportuguesegen.blogspot.com

On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 12:22:02 PM UTC-4, Cheri Mello wrote:

Manuel M,

Manuel said:
<>

They beat the body???  I guess back in those days they didn't know
that the ocean would decompose the body.


Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das
Tainhas, Achada

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[Liliana Harris]

Hi Nancy Jean,

You all seem to know each other. I feel like I've stumbled into an extended 
family. Well, so far the author's research seems to have paid off with all 
sorts of interesting facts. I hope you enjoy the book, too.

Liliana


On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 8:35:00 AM UTC-7, nancy jean baptiste wrote:

> Hi Liliana,
>  
> It's Nancy Jean because we have several Nancy's on the list.
>  
> Thank you for the book information. I knew Miriam was about to publish her 
> book. I've never met her but did communicate with her after someone gave 
> her my name as a contact for Pico. She had never been before last year 
> although she had been doing extensive research for her book. I'd like to 
> read it and will contact inter library loan. Thanks for the name.
>  
> The graveyards on Pico are beautiful.I'd also like to go to Santa 
> Maria and find my great grandmothers home in Almagreira. I've never asked 
> in Candelaria, Pico where the bones are moved to after disinterment but I 
> will this year. I have no idea where they put them and in truth my first 
> clue about the bones was in the cemetery.I seriously doubt they spread 
> the bones BUT, the first time I was there I noticed MANY very old, 
> grey, ossified small pieces of bones in the cemetery which is behind a 
> high, gated wall.I showed them to my husband who said dogs probably 
> brought them in.I said no way! I asked a friend and she told me about 
> the graves being reused but she didn't say what they did with the bones and 
> I never investigated further but I will. I found a grave with the name 
> Manuel Furtado Cardoso, same as my ggrandfather but it was from 1921 and he 
> came to the states in 1905the man in the picture had a strong 
> resemblance to his picture.  I've never tried very hard to find my 
> Candelaria relatives who might still be there and had no clue where they 
> lived until now. Thanks to the CCA putting the Pico records up, I have now 
> found through baptisms and obits the house # and street where they lived 
> and I can't wait to find it this year! My thanks to the CCA are endless for 
> what they've given me time and again!
>  
> Again thanks for the book nameI love to read anything Azores related!
>  
> Best regards,
> Nancy Jean
>  
> --------------
> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 19:19:25 -0700
> From: lilia...@gmail.com 
> To: azo...@googlegroups.com 
> CC: fishso...@hotmail.com 
> Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?
>
> Hello Nancy (or is it Nancy Jean?)
>
> Now I feel a bit foolish. It's not many books; it's just one. It's part 
> fiction, set on the island of Pico, and part a lot of background 
> information about the Azores. The title is Saudade, but it's written in 
> English. The author is Miriam Winthrop. I think it's really interesting.
>
> Despite the disappointment over not having cemeteries I could look around, 
> I still want to visit the islands--particularly Santa Maria (and, since 
> reading the book, Pico.) I'll look for those wooden cribs and take a few 
> pictures myself! Thanks.
>
> Liliana
>
> On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 6:07:42 PM UTC-7, nancy jean baptiste wrote:
>
> Liliana,
>  
> I'd like to read some of the books you mentionnames?
>  
> When I first looked in the cemetery in Candelaria for my ancestors there 
> were many names I recognized but there weren't many old graves. They were 
> however, very interesting with little wooden "cribs" built around them with 
> flowers inside and some had pictures of the deceased. I took some great 
> pictures because it was so uniquely charming and unlike anything I'd ever 
> seen!
>  
> Best,
> Nancy Jean
>  
> --
> From: gfsc...@gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 17:59:18 -0700
> Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?
> To: azo...@googlegroups.com
>
> Liliana,
>
> Yes, the remains are dug up and put into a crypt (I think the correct word 
> is ossuary). The grave is then reused.  It has nothing to do with being 
> Catholic.  There is not enough room for all those bodies that have 
> populated the islands since the 1400s.  It's a necessity.  
>
> The only way the body remains is if the family pays a fee to keep the body 
> longer.  
>
> No, you won't find headstones.
>
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada 
>
> -- 
> For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail 
> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit th

Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[Liliana Harris]

Hello Rosemarie,

See the message I just sent Nancy Jean. You all do know each other! So, the 
author is actually a friend of yours! Please thank her for such an good 
read. She did a fine job of separating what is clearly fact from the 
fictional backstory, as far as I can see.

Liliana

On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 8:51:18 AM UTC-7, rcapodc wrote:

>   Nancy Jean, 
>  
> Miriam is a good friend of mine! She worked very hard on the book and I 
> think did a wonderful job. Although it is fiction, it is based on her 
> research and her trip to the Azores to visit her roots! I hope that you and 
> others will enjoy the book. 
>  
> Rosemarie 
>  
>
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[Isabella Baltar]

Manuel,

"...taken out to sea where they would beat the body and dump it in the 
ocean... 

Where did you read that? Do you have any information? I really would like 
to learn more about as I never heard this. Even if what you have is written 
in Portuguese, as it is my primary language.

I will appreciate that.

Isabella Baltar
myportuguesegen.blogspot.com

On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 12:22:02 PM UTC-4, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> Manuel M,
>
> Manuel said:
> < reburied for another 7 years,  if it is still intact the body after that 
> time the body it taken and put on a boat and taken out to sea where they 
> would beat the body and dump it in the ocean. I do not know what is the 
> current process after 7 years.>>
>
> They beat the body???  I guess back in those days they didn't know that 
> the ocean would decompose the body.
>
>
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada 
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[Liliana Harris]

I will just send out one thank you to all the people who have shared so 
many fascinating stories about burial customs. I don't even have any 
genealogy questions right now, but I keep coming back because this is such 
an interesting, well-informed group.

On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 9:38:19 AM UTC-7, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> Yeah, I think that the body not decomposing is just 1 component to 
> becoming a saint.
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 9:33 AM, > wrote:
>
>> I've heard that to become a saint, they had to have some number of 
>> miracles and it's a long process performed in Rome.
>>
>> Doug da Rocha Holmes
>> Sacramento, California
>> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
>> 916-550-1618
>> www.dholmes.com
>>
>>
>>   Original Message 
>> Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?
>> From: nancy jean baptiste >
>> Date: Wed, April 23, 2014 9:29 am
>> To: azores group >
>>
>> Hi Cheri,
>>  
>> I wondered what he meant by that "beat the body".seems like if it 
>> hadn't decomposed they'd recommend it for sainthood! 
>>  
>>  -- 
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>> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at 
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>> membership."
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>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada 
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[Cheri Mello]

Yeah, I think that the body not decomposing is just 1 component to becoming
a saint.


On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 9:33 AM,  wrote:

> I've heard that to become a saint, they had to have some number of
> miracles and it's a long process performed in Rome.
>
> Doug da Rocha Holmes
> Sacramento, California
> Pico & Terceira Genealogist
> 916-550-1618
> www.dholmes.com
>
>
>  ---- Original Message --------
> Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?
> From: nancy jean baptiste 
> Date: Wed, April 23, 2014 9:29 am
> To: azores group 
>
> Hi Cheri,
>
> I wondered what he meant by that "beat the body".seems like if it
> hadn't decomposed they'd recommend it for sainthood!
>
>  --
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-- 
Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas,
Achada

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RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[pico]

I've heard that to become a saint, they had to have some number of miracles and it's a long process performed in Rome.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico & Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com


 Original Message ----
Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?
From: nancy jean baptiste <fishsongf...@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, April 23, 2014 9:29 am
To: azores group <azores@googlegroups.com>

   Hi Cheri, I wondered what he meant by that "beat the body".seems like if it hadn't decomposed they'd recommend it for sainthood!  





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RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[nancy jean baptiste]

Hi Cheri,
 
I wondered what he meant by that "beat the body".seems like if it hadn't 
decomposed they'd recommend it for sainthood! More info regarding that would be 
interesting.when I asked my friend about the bones in the graveyard and I 
expressed surprise at them being dug up she took a bit of offense and said she 
didn't think I should move to the Azores because I didn't understand the 
customsneedless to say I dropped the subject!
 
Have a very fine day and again, THANK YOU for this group and all you do!
 
Nancy Jean
 
From: gfsche...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 09:22:02 -0700
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?
To: azores@googlegroups.com

Manuel M,

Manuel said:
<>

They beat the body???  I guess back in those days they didn't know that the 
ocean would decompose the body.



Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, 
Achada





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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[Cheri Mello]

Manuel M,

Manuel said:
<>

They beat the body???  I guess back in those days they didn't know that the
ocean would decompose the body.


Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas,
Achada

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RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[nancy jean baptiste]

Hi Rosemarie,
 
I thought I remembered that she had my name from you but hesitated to say 
without being sure. She's a very pleasant person and we communicated quite a 
bit before her trip. I'm looking forward to reading her book and have already 
called the library!
 
Best to you!
Nancy Jean
 
From: rcap...@redshift.com
To: azores@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 08:51:18 -0700







Nancy Jean, 
 
Miriam is a good friend of mine! She worked very hard on the book and I 
think did a wonderful job. Although it is fiction, it is based on her research 
and her trip to the Azores to visit her roots! I hope that you and others will 
enjoy the book. 
 
Rosemarie 
 


 

From: nancy jean baptiste 
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 8:35 AM
To: Liliana Harris ; azores 
group 
Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it 
true?
 

Hi Liliana,
 
It's Nancy Jean because we have several 
Nancy's on the list.
 
Thank you for the book information. I knew 
Miriam was about to publish her book. I've never met her but did communicate 
with her after someone gave her my name as a contact for Pico. She had never 
been before last year although she had been doing extensive research for her 
book. I'd like to read it and will contact inter library loan. Thanks for the 
name.
 
The graveyards on Pico are beautiful.I'd also like to go 
to Santa Maria and find my great grandmothers home in Almagreira. I've never 
asked in Candelaria, Pico where the bones are moved to after disinterment but I 
will this year. I have no idea where they put them and in truth my first clue 
about the bones was in the cemetery.I seriously doubt they spread the bones 
BUT, the first time I was there I noticed MANY very old, grey, ossified small 
pieces of bones in the cemetery which is behind a high, gated wall.I showed 
them to my husband who said dogs probably brought them in.I said no way! I 
asked a friend and she told me about the graves being reused but she didn't say 
what they did with the bones and I never investigated further but I will. I 
found a grave with the name Manuel Furtado Cardoso, same as my ggrandfather but 
it was from 1921 and he came to the states in 1905the man in the picture 
had 
a strong resemblance to his picture.  I've never tried very hard to find my 
Candelaria relatives who might still be there and had no clue where they lived 
until now. Thanks to the CCA putting the Pico records up, I have now found 
through baptisms and obits the house # and street where they lived and I can't 
wait to find it this year! My thanks to the CCA are endless for what they've 
given me time and again!
 
Again thanks for the book nameI love 
to read anything Azores related!
 
Best regards,
Nancy 
Jean
 



Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 19:19:25 -0700
From: lilianah...@gmail.com
To: 
azores@googlegroups.com
CC: fishsongf...@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: 
[AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?



Hello Nancy (or is it Nancy Jean?)
 
Now I feel a bit foolish. It's not many books; it's just one. It's part 
fiction, set on the island of Pico, and part a lot of background information 
about the Azores. The title is Saudade, but it's written in English. The author 
is Miriam Winthrop. I think it's really interesting.
 
Despite the disappointment over not having cemeteries I could look around, 
I still want to visit the islands--particularly Santa Maria (and, since reading 
the book, Pico.) I'll look for those wooden cribs and take a few pictures 
myself! Thanks.
 
Liliana

On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 6:07:42 PM UTC-7, nancy jean 
baptiste wrote:

  
  Liliana,
 
I'd like to read some of the books you 
  mentionnames?
 
When I first looked in the cemetery in 
  Candelaria for my ancestors there were many names I recognized but there 
  weren't many old graves. They were however, very interesting with little 
  wooden "cribs" built around them with flowers inside and some had pictures of 
  the deceased. I took some great pictures because it was so uniquely charming 
  and unlike anything I'd ever seen!
 
Best,
Nancy 
  Jean
 

  
  
  From: gfsc...@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 
  17:59:18 -0700
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it 
  true?
To: azo...@googlegroups.com


  Liliana,

Yes, the remains are dug up and put into a crypt 
  (I think the correct word is ossuary). The grave is then reused.  It has 
  nothing to do with being Catholic.  There is not enough room for all 
  those bodies that have populated the islands since the 1400s.  It's a 
  necessity.  

The only way the body remains is if the family pays a 
  fee to keep the body longer.  

No, you won't find headstones.

  
Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, 
  Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada 
-- 
  
For op

Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[rcapodc]

Nancy Jean, 

Miriam is a good friend of mine! She worked very hard on the book and I think 
did a wonderful job. Although it is fiction, it is based on her research and 
her trip to the Azores to visit her roots! I hope that you and others will 
enjoy the book. 

Rosemarie 


From: nancy jean baptiste 
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 8:35 AM
To: Liliana Harris ; azores group 
Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

Hi Liliana,
 
It's Nancy Jean because we have several Nancy's on the list.
 
Thank you for the book information. I knew Miriam was about to publish her 
book. I've never met her but did communicate with her after someone gave her my 
name as a contact for Pico. She had never been before last year although she 
had been doing extensive research for her book. I'd like to read it and will 
contact inter library loan. Thanks for the name.
 
The graveyards on Pico are beautiful.I'd also like to go to Santa Maria and 
find my great grandmothers home in Almagreira. I've never asked in Candelaria, 
Pico where the bones are moved to after disinterment but I will this year. I 
have no idea where they put them and in truth my first clue about the bones was 
in the cemetery.I seriously doubt they spread the bones BUT, the first time 
I was there I noticed MANY very old, grey, ossified small pieces of bones in 
the cemetery which is behind a high, gated wall.I showed them to my husband 
who said dogs probably brought them in.I said no way! I asked a friend and 
she told me about the graves being reused but she didn't say what they did with 
the bones and I never investigated further but I will. I found a grave with the 
name Manuel Furtado Cardoso, same as my ggrandfather but it was from 1921 and 
he came to the states in 1905the man in the picture had a strong 
resemblance to his picture.  I've never tried very hard to find my Candelaria 
relatives who might still be there and had no clue where they lived until now. 
Thanks to the CCA putting the Pico records up, I have now found through 
baptisms and obits the house # and street where they lived and I can't wait to 
find it this year! My thanks to the CCA are endless for what they've given me 
time and again!
 
Again thanks for the book nameI love to read anything Azores related!
 
Best regards,
Nancy Jean
 



Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 19:19:25 -0700
From: lilianah...@gmail.com
To: azores@googlegroups.com
CC: fishsongf...@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?


Hello Nancy (or is it Nancy Jean?)

Now I feel a bit foolish. It's not many books; it's just one. It's part 
fiction, set on the island of Pico, and part a lot of background information 
about the Azores. The title is Saudade, but it's written in English. The author 
is Miriam Winthrop. I think it's really interesting.

Despite the disappointment over not having cemeteries I could look around, I 
still want to visit the islands--particularly Santa Maria (and, since reading 
the book, Pico.) I'll look for those wooden cribs and take a few pictures 
myself! Thanks.

Liliana

On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 6:07:42 PM UTC-7, nancy jean baptiste wrote:
  Liliana,
   
  I'd like to read some of the books you mentionnames?
   
  When I first looked in the cemetery in Candelaria for my ancestors there were 
many names I recognized but there weren't many old graves. They were however, 
very interesting with little wooden "cribs" built around them with flowers 
inside and some had pictures of the deceased. I took some great pictures 
because it was so uniquely charming and unlike anything I'd ever seen!
   
  Best,
  Nancy Jean
   


--------------
  From: gfsc...@gmail.com
  Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 17:59:18 -0700
  Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?
  To: azo...@googlegroups.com


  Liliana,

  Yes, the remains are dug up and put into a crypt (I think the correct word is 
ossuary). The grave is then reused.  It has nothing to do with being Catholic.  
There is not enough room for all those bodies that have populated the islands 
since the 1400s.  It's a necessity.  

  The only way the body remains is if the family pays a fee to keep the body 
longer.  

  No, you won't find headstones.


  Cheri Mello
  Listowner, Azores-Gen
  Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, 
Achada 

  -- 
  For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail 
(vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that 
says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership."
  --- 
  You received this messag

RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[nancy jean baptiste]

Hi Liliana,
 
It's Nancy Jean because we have several Nancy's on the list.
 
Thank you for the book information. I knew Miriam was about to publish her 
book. I've never met her but did communicate with her after someone gave her my 
name as a contact for Pico. She had never been before last year although she 
had been doing extensive research for her book. I'd like to read it and will 
contact inter library loan. Thanks for the name.
 
The graveyards on Pico are beautiful.I'd also like to go to Santa Maria and 
find my great grandmothers home in Almagreira. I've never asked in Candelaria, 
Pico where the bones are moved to after disinterment but I will this year. I 
have no idea where they put them and in truth my first clue about the bones was 
in the cemetery.I seriously doubt they spread the bones BUT, the first time 
I was there I noticed MANY very old, grey, ossified small pieces of bones in 
the cemetery which is behind a high, gated wall.I showed them to my husband 
who said dogs probably brought them in.I said no way! I asked a friend and 
she told me about the graves being reused but she didn't say what they did with 
the bones and I never investigated further but I will. I found a grave with the 
name Manuel Furtado Cardoso, same as my ggrandfather but it was from 1921 and 
he came to the states in 1905the man in the picture had a strong 
resemblance to his picture.  I've never tried very hard to find my Candelaria 
relatives who might still be there and had no clue where they lived until now. 
Thanks to the CCA putting the Pico records up, I have now found through 
baptisms and obits the house # and street where they lived and I can't wait to 
find it this year! My thanks to the CCA are endless for what they've given me 
time and again!
 
Again thanks for the book nameI love to read anything Azores related!
 
Best regards,
Nancy Jean
 
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 19:19:25 -0700
From: lilianah...@gmail.com
To: azores@googlegroups.com
CC: fishsongf...@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

Hello Nancy (or is it Nancy Jean?)
Now I feel a bit foolish. It's not many books; it's just one. It's part 
fiction, set on the island of Pico, and part a lot of background information 
about the Azores. The title is Saudade, but it's written in English. The author 
is Miriam Winthrop. I think it's really interesting.
Despite the disappointment over not having cemeteries I could look around, I 
still want to visit the islands--particularly Santa Maria (and, since reading 
the book, Pico.) I'll look for those wooden cribs and take a few pictures 
myself! Thanks.
Liliana

On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 6:07:42 PM UTC-7, nancy jean baptiste wrote:


Liliana,
 
I'd like to read some of the books you mentionnames?
 
When I first looked in the cemetery in Candelaria for my ancestors there were 
many names I recognized but there weren't many old graves. They were however, 
very interesting with little wooden "cribs" built around them with flowers 
inside and some had pictures of the deceased. I took some great pictures 
because it was so uniquely charming and unlike anything I'd ever seen!
 
Best,
Nancy Jean
 
From: gfsc...@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 17:59:18 -0700
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?
To: azo...@googlegroups.com

Liliana,

Yes, the remains are dug up and put into a crypt (I think the correct word is 
ossuary). The grave is then reused.  It has nothing to do with being Catholic.  
There is not enough room for all those bodies that have populated the islands 
since the 1400s.  It's a necessity.  



The only way the body remains is if the family pays a fee to keep the body 
longer.  

No, you won't find headstones.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, 
Achada





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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[Manuel Martins]

Every parish had a cemetery, the oldest grave was the first to be used, 
families that had means could by the grave and any family member could 
be buried there after 7 years, the length of time differed between 
cemeteries.  Some areas decomposed the body faster than others.  In 
Madalena for example, they used to add lime to the graves to speed the 
process.  Now 4 vases with liquid are added to the coffins, this is done 
because now a days many pass away in Horta, Terceira or Sao Miguel and 
by law for the body to travel it has to be inside a zinc box inside the 
coffin, before the coffin is lowered it is opened and a whole is cut in 
the zinc box this starts the decomposing process.


In the old days if a grave is dug and the body was still intact, it was 
reburied for another 7 years,  if it is still intact the body after that 
time the body it taken and put on a boat and taken out to sea where they 
would beat the body and dump it in the ocean. I do not know what is the 
current process after 7 years.


Most families knew where their loved ones were buried, some marked the 
graves with a cross others stopped by once in a while to drop flowers or 
prayed.  But people mostly offered masses or donated to the poor in the 
deceased name.  Visiting the grave site was not the tradition that I 
remember.


A paid grave can be reused in times of need or when there are no other 
graves available.


Manny

On 4/22/2014 11:36 PM, p...@dholmes.com wrote:

Same happens in Hungary.

I did a search for my great-great-grandfather there and found the 
cemetery, but no sign of his remains or headstone (if he ever had one) 
from the 1860s.


But one way to look at it is also beneficial. I found in one Hungarian 
village someone with the same rather unique surname and it turned out 
to be the brother of my great-great-grandmother. I think the headstone 
was from the early 1900s and the fact it's still there (a very nice 
and tall tombstone) tells me someone has been paying for it and I have 
yet to track them down. They would be fairly close cousins.


Same thing for me in Piedade, Pico. I found a Leal da Rosa headstone, 
pretty new, and knew there was a cousin not far away. I did find them 
and they were 4th or 5th cousins, I believe.


I wonder if the cemetery makes some kind of notification before 
removal. Otherwise, I think many more might be gone if people forgot 
to renew.


Doug da Rocha Holmes
Sacramento, California
Pico & Terceira Genealogist
916-550-1618
www.dholmes.com 


 Original Message 
Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?
From: Herb mailto:herbandj...@verizon.net>>
Date: Tue, April 22, 2014 6:32 pm
To: azores@googlegroups.com 

Yes it's true. I have lived and travelled to dozens of countries
and this practice is common all over the world. There isn't enough
room for all the bodies. My grandfather died in Terceira and was
buried there in 1940, aged 40. When I lived in Terceira I went to
the cemeteries to search for his headstone or some information on
him and found out his bones had been removed 7 years after the
burial. In Terceira it was 7 years I don't know about the other
islands. In Guam I think it was 11 years after burial when I lived
there. When I lived in the UK they leased plots for a period of 25
50 or 99 years. It's the same in Australia. Paris and Rome have
famous ossuaries and catacombs

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[Mary Bordi]

Six of my ancestors were buried inside the church (late 1700s early 1800s).
Probably more...those are the obits that I have.

I had visited that church when I traveled to the Azores. But at that time I
did not know my people had been buried inside the church! I don't know if
those had been dug up or if the remains are still there. I understand that
practice was outlawed.

Mary

On Tuesday, April 22, 2014, Liliana Harris  wrote:

> I had thought I would travel to the Azores this summer and do a little
> research in the cemeteries. Now I read (again, I will admit, fiction) that
> the people dig up (all?) the bodies after a certain number of years. Can
> this possibly be true, especially in a Catholic culture? Why? Where would
> they put the bodies? Would the headstones remain?
>
> --
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> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the
> right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my
> membership."
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> azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
> .
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>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[Cheryl Barnhurst]

I know in Switzerland the bones are put in the basement of a church. My friend 
got pictures through a broken window years ago. I can't remember how long the 
body stays in the grave before the bones are moved to the church. Apparently 
this happens a lot.
Sherry

Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 22, 2014, at 6:05 PM, "\"E\" Sharp"  wrote:
> 
> Liliana,
> 
> Not sure about the Azores, but in other areas of Europe after a number of 
> years this is true.  My friends in Germany told me that if they wanted to 
> continue to have their father remain where he was, they could either pay 
> again or the area would be reused.  Not sure what they did with the remains - 
> not sure if he ever had a stone.  I am very lucky that my for my family 
> members in Croatia, they kept the stones and lined the perimeter of the 
> cemetery with the old stones so I was able to find many of my family's stones 
> which, of course, I took pictures of.
> 
> "E" 
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 1:02 PM, Liliana Harris  
>> wrote:
>> I had thought I would travel to the Azores this summer and do a little 
>> research in the cemeteries. Now I read (again, I will admit, fiction) that 
>> the people dig up (all?) the bodies after a certain number of years. Can 
>> this possibly be true, especially in a Catholic culture? Why? Where would 
>> they put the bodies? Would the headstones remain?
>> -- 
>> For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail 
>> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at 
>> http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right 
>> that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership."
>> --- 
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>> "Azores Genealogy" group.
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>> email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> 
> -- 
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RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[pico]

Same happens in Hungary.I did a search for my great-great-grandfather there and found the cemetery, but no sign of his remains or headstone (if he ever had one) from the 1860s.But one way to look at it is also beneficial. I found in one Hungarian village someone with the same rather unique surname and it turned out to be the brother of my great-great-grandmother. I think the headstone was from the early 1900s and the fact it's still there (a very nice and tall tombstone) tells me someone has been paying for it and I have yet to track them down. They would be fairly close cousins.Same thing for me in Piedade, Pico. I found a Leal da Rosa headstone, pretty new, and knew there was a cousin not far away. I did find them and they were 4th or 5th cousins, I believe.I wonder if the cemetery makes some kind of notification before removal. Otherwise, I think many more might be gone if people forgot to renew.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico & Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com


 Original Message 
Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?
From: Herb 
Date: Tue, April 22, 2014 6:32 pm
To: azores@googlegroups.com

Yes it's true. I have lived and travelled to dozens of countries and this practice is  common all over the world. There isn't enough room for all the bodies. My grandfather died in Terceira and was buried there in 1940, aged 40. When I lived in Terceira I went to the cemeteries to search for his headstone or some information on him and found out his bones had been removed 7 years after the burial. In Terceira it was 7 years I don't know about the other islands. In Guam I think it was 11 years after burial when I lived there. When I lived in the UK they leased plots for a period of 25 50 or 99 years. It's the same in Australia. Paris and Rome have famous ossuaries and catacombs 







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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[Liliana Harris]

Hello Nancy (or is it Nancy Jean?)

Now I feel a bit foolish. It's not many books; it's just one. It's part 
fiction, set on the island of Pico, and part a lot of background 
information about the Azores. The title is Saudade, but it's written in 
English. The author is Miriam Winthrop. I think it's really interesting.

Despite the disappointment over not having cemeteries I could look around, 
I still want to visit the islands--particularly Santa Maria (and, since 
reading the book, Pico.) I'll look for those wooden cribs and take a few 
pictures myself! Thanks.

Liliana

On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 6:07:42 PM UTC-7, nancy jean baptiste wrote:

> Liliana,
>  
> I'd like to read some of the books you mentionnames?
>  
> When I first looked in the cemetery in Candelaria for my ancestors there 
> were many names I recognized but there weren't many old graves. They were 
> however, very interesting with little wooden "cribs" built around them with 
> flowers inside and some had pictures of the deceased. I took some great 
> pictures because it was so uniquely charming and unlike anything I'd ever 
> seen!
>  
> Best,
> Nancy Jean
>  
> ----------
> From: gfsc...@gmail.com 
> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 17:59:18 -0700
> Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?
> To: azo...@googlegroups.com 
>
> Liliana,
>
> Yes, the remains are dug up and put into a crypt (I think the correct word 
> is ossuary). The grave is then reused.  It has nothing to do with being 
> Catholic.  There is not enough room for all those bodies that have 
> populated the islands since the 1400s.  It's a necessity.  
>
> The only way the body remains is if the family pays a fee to keep the body 
> longer.  
>
> No, you won't find headstones.
>
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada 
>
> -- 
> For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail 
> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at 
> http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the 
> right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my 
> membership."
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>  

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[Liliana Harris]

Hi "E",

This is so interesting. I guess it's just unfamiliar to Americans because 
we have such a new country, filled with so much open space.

Liliana

On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 6:05:24 PM UTC-7, E Sharp wrote:

> Liliana,
>
> Not sure about the Azores, but in other areas of Europe after a number of 
> years this is true.  My friends in Germany told me that if they wanted to 
> continue to have their father remain where he was, they could either pay 
> again or the area would be reused.  Not sure what they did with the remains 
> - not sure if he ever had a stone.  I am very lucky that my for my family 
> members in Croatia, they kept the stones and lined the perimeter of the 
> cemetery with the old stones so I was able to find many of my family's 
> stones which, of course, I took pictures of. 
>
> "E"  
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 1:02 PM, Liliana Harris 
> 
> > wrote:
>
>> I had thought I would travel to the Azores this summer and do a little 
>> research in the cemeteries. Now I read (again, I will admit, fiction) that 
>> the people dig up (all?) the bodies after a certain number of years. Can 
>> this possibly be true, especially in a Catholic culture? Why? Where would 
>> they put the bodies? Would the headstones remain? 
>>  
>> -- 
>> For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail 
>> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at 
>> http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the 
>> right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my 
>> membership."
>> --- 
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>> "Azores Genealogy" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to azores+un...@googlegroups.com .
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
>>
>
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[Liliana Harris]

Thank you, Cheri. (It seems I've thanked you a lot since I started this 
quest.) The information is a letdown, but now I understand the reason for 
it. I had pictured myself prowling around old cemeteries, finding clues, 
and doing grave rubbings. I guess not.

On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 5:59:18 PM UTC-7, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> Liliana,
>
> Yes, the remains are dug up and put into a crypt (I think the correct word 
> is ossuary). The grave is then reused.  It has nothing to do with being 
> Catholic.  There is not enough room for all those bodies that have 
> populated the islands since the 1400s.  It's a necessity.  
>
> The only way the body remains is if the family pays a fee to keep the body 
> longer.  
>
> No, you won't find headstones.
>
> Cheri Mello
> Listowner, Azores-Gen
> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das 
> Tainhas, Achada 
>

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RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[nancy jean baptiste]

Liliana,
 
I'd like to read some of the books you mentionnames?
 
When I first looked in the cemetery in Candelaria for my ancestors there were 
many names I recognized but there weren't many old graves. They were however, 
very interesting with little wooden "cribs" built around them with flowers 
inside and some had pictures of the deceased. I took some great pictures 
because it was so uniquely charming and unlike anything I'd ever seen!
 
Best,
Nancy Jean
 
From: gfsche...@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 17:59:18 -0700
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?
To: azores@googlegroups.com

Liliana,

Yes, the remains are dug up and put into a crypt (I think the correct word is 
ossuary). The grave is then reused.  It has nothing to do with being Catholic.  
There is not enough room for all those bodies that have populated the islands 
since the 1400s.  It's a necessity.  



The only way the body remains is if the family pays a fee to keep the body 
longer.  

No, you won't find headstones.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, 
Achada





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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

["E" Sharp]

Liliana,

Not sure about the Azores, but in other areas of Europe after a number of
years this is true.  My friends in Germany told me that if they wanted to
continue to have their father remain where he was, they could either pay
again or the area would be reused.  Not sure what they did with the remains
- not sure if he ever had a stone.  I am very lucky that my for my family
members in Croatia, they kept the stones and lined the perimeter of the
cemetery with the old stones so I was able to find many of my family's
stones which, of course, I took pictures of.

"E"


On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 1:02 PM, Liliana Harris wrote:

> I had thought I would travel to the Azores this summer and do a little
> research in the cemeteries. Now I read (again, I will admit, fiction) that
> the people dig up (all?) the bodies after a certain number of years. Can
> this possibly be true, especially in a Catholic culture? Why? Where would
> they put the bodies? Would the headstones remain?
>
> --
> For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail
> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the
> right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my
> membership."
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Azores Genealogy" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Bizarre...but is it true?

[Cheri Mello]

Liliana,

Yes, the remains are dug up and put into a crypt (I think the correct word
is ossuary). The grave is then reused.  It has nothing to do with being
Catholic.  There is not enough room for all those bodies that have
populated the islands since the 1400s.  It's a necessity.

The only way the body remains is if the family pays a fee to keep the body
longer.

No, you won't find headstones.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas,
Achada

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