Re: [backstage] iPlayer Today?
Thoughts: Hated having to upgrade from WMP9 to WMP11 but installation was seamless (although fiddly) the 2 downloads I've done whacked in at 9Mb/s (pretty much my max dl speed). Video quality is good - I'd guess average bitrate 1300kbps. Does what it says. But for heavens sake BBC - put a proper forum up, not this manky 'messageboard'. This is an open beta good modern forum software with threaded views, 'view replies to my posts', 'view unread posts', email notifications etc .. is essential IMHO. Makes it a lot easier for the community to selfhelp also for the developers to get feedback. Regards, Nico M __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: nicomorrison __ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer Today?
On 7/29/07, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (boring DRM invective deleted) Also why does the BBC trust's report not mention the fact that not only is iPlayer Windows only, it is IE only? Did the BBC not tell them they where doing this? Why can't it work with Firefox? iplayer:// can be made to run iPlayer from Firefox it's not exactly tricky is it? Or do you use some dodgy way of invoking iPlayer from IE? (or is it no longer IE only?) I asked just this question; and the answer is the invocation of the iPlayer is some kind of ActiveX nastiness. Everything else works just fine with Firefox, but the team made the sensible decision to make the entire site not work, rather than allow you to get all the way to choosing a programme and then be told you can't. It *is* on the roadmap to be sorted, though; as is the Mac/Linux issue. On 7/30/07, Nico Morrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But for heavens sake BBC - put a proper forum up, not this manky 'messageboard'. The manky messageboard is the BBC's DNA system, which talks correctly to the single sign-on service, and does other useful fancy things. There's a lot of work going on behind the scenes; much of what I see of the BBC's current web infrastructure (now I'm inside) is very Web0.5, but that's being sorted. Don't panic. (That previous sentence was, I note, an unintended pun, given that 'DNA' is actually based on the H2G2 engine.) //j http://james.cridland.net/
Re: [backstage] Can we have a developer mailing list?
On 7/29/07, Adam Leach [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there any chance of a separate developer list for discussion of APIs, services, Geek events, etc. The BBC with the encouragement from Ian Matthew are providing some great sources of information for doing mashups and organising some great events like Hackday, but this mailing list is just becoming a BBC Bashing list. Good plan! Might I recommend (having run many a mailing list in my time) that we, the users of this list, do not accept wildly off-topic conversation and mail people, off list, to enforce this? //j
RE: [backstage] iPlayer Today?
On 7/29/07, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Must be full moon soon. There really was a full moon last night, although reports of Ian becoming a Werewolf are apparently wide of the mark :) -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media Operations - Part of BBC Global News Division * 701NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer Today?
On 30/07/07, James Cridland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 7/30/07, Nico Morrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But for heavens sake BBC - put a proper forum up, not this manky 'messageboard'. The manky messageboard is the BBC's DNA system, which talks correctly to the single sign-on service, and does other useful fancy things. There's a lot of work going on behind the scenes; much of what I see of the BBC's current web infrastructure (now I'm inside) is very Web0.5, but that's being sorted. Don't panic. (That previous sentence was, I note, an unintended pun, given that 'DNA' is actually based on the H2G2 engine.) There are several scalable, user-friendly forum software packages, with the facility to login externally from another sign-on service. They can also connect to web pages news/articles - often called 'talkback', much superior to blog comments, as they connect news articles to an automatic forum topic and the article can also be founs from the forum. The current system is not user-friendly it is difficult to see what is where to either get or give answers. No Search, no 'new replies to my posts'. No 'stickies'. No 'unread posts since my last visit'. No 'subscribe to this topic' or 'show subscribed topics'. Ugly interface. I could go on and on. Web0.5 indeed - but why does the BBC have to reinvent the wheel? Forums are often the major first-stop support base and their beauty is that it's other customers who often provide the support. You probably know all this - but are now stuck with a BBC 'standard' - I sympathise. Regards, Nico Morrison __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: nicomorrison __ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer Today?
On 30/07/07, James Cridland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 7/29/07, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (boring DRM invective deleted) Also why does the BBC trust's report not mention the fact that not only is iPlayer Windows only, it is IE only? Did the BBC not tell them they where doing this? Why can't it work with Firefox? iplayer:// can be made to run iPlayer from Firefox it's not exactly tricky is it? Or do you use some dodgy way of invoking iPlayer from IE? (or is it no longer IE only?) I asked just this question; and the answer is the invocation of the iPlayer is some kind of ActiveX nastiness. Everything else works just fine with Firefox, but the team made the sensible decision to make the entire site not work, rather than allow you to get all the way to choosing a programme and then be told you can't. It *is* on the roadmap to be sorted, though; as is the Mac/Linux issue. FireFox can be used by installing the IETab plugin adding the iplayer site to it. I know it's a fudge of course IE embedded is running under the hood - but it allows seamless use with Firefox (works with Windoze Update as well). Useability excellent. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1419 http://ietab.mozdev.org/ Regards, Nico Morrison __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: nicomorrison __ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Kontiki Backlash
On 30/07/07, James Bridle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The software runs without your knowledge, although you agree to this in the terms and conditions. Splorf! -- Peter Bowyer Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer Today?
On Sun, 2007-07-29 at 22:48 +0100, mike chamberlain wrote: Given we all know DRM's broken, yet is mandated by the people who own the content, what's better for the BBC to do? Write it's own and be responsible for fixing any breakages, or use one the content providers are happy with? I think the best option is probably for the BBC to deceive the content providers by using some kind of snake-oil 'solution' which the BBC's own technical experts _know_ won't actually achieve their desires, but which looks just good enough to the non-expert that it'll trick them into thinking that their content is 'protected' even though it isn't. Hopefully, the lie should hold up for _just_ long enough for them to realise that the Internet is no more going to destroy the content industry than video recorders did. It's a shame that the BBC has to mislead the content providers, and it's a shame that honest consumers are so inconvenienced by something which doesn't actually prevent the _serious_ piracy anyway. But this really is the best answer... honest! Seriously though -- since it's being so blatantly disingenuous, the BBC probably is doing the best thing by using someone else's snake oil rather than creating their own. It'll put them in a much better position if they're ever sued by a content provider because they entered the arrangement _knowing_ that their DRM was going to be trivially 'broken'. -- dwmw2 - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Kontiki Backlash
That IS funny, but how many folks ever ever read the t's and c's? I know I don't: http://www.eff.org/wp/eula.php and http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000892.html S. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Bowyer Sent: 30 July 2007 12:51 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Kontiki Backlash On 30/07/07, James Bridle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The software runs without your knowledge, although you agree to this in the terms and conditions. Splorf! -- Peter Bowyer Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Kontiki Backlash
On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 12:25:10 +0100, James Bridle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Outside the DRM/platform debate around the iPlayer, here's another alleged issue that may end up affecting far more users as it is a lot more comprehensible to non-geeks. The fact that it's propagating via Facebook is proof of this alone. Essentially, people are claiming that 4od, Sky Anytime and now the iPlayer are 'stealing' their bandwidth by using p2p to distribute their programmes. A case of lack of good information that might provoke a damaging consumer backlash? Funny you should post this. The second post on the Facebook discussion board for the iPlayer app was about Kontiki: http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2507680285topic=2850 Can anyone guess what the first one was? ;-) Cheers Jonathan - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Can we have a developer mailing list?
I think we should get the developer mailing list, and a forum as someone else suggested as sometimes it can be easy to lose ones place in each thread running concurrently. Maybe we should take the mailing list archive and convert it into such a forum? So that when someone replies it gets added to the thread, or someone replies to the forum thread the mailing list sends it out also? -- Barry Carlyon Webmaster LSRfm.com/LSweb.org.uk/leedsaction.co.uk/luubackstage.com mobile: 07729048443 skype: barrycarlyon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ~:'' Sent: 30 July 2007 13:34 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Cc: James Cridland Subject: Re: [backstage] Can we have a developer mailing list? James, I would prefer 2 lists as the junk one gives one an insight into broader concerns. it also provides a buffer between newbies and developers, else cheers Jonathan Chetwynd Accessibility Consultant on Learning Disabilities and the Internet 29 Crimsworth Road SW8 4RJ 020 7978 1764 http://www.eas-i.co.uk On 30 Jul 2007, at 10:36, James Cridland wrote: On 7/29/07, Adam Leach [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there any chance of a separate developer list for discussion of APIs, services, Geek events, etc. The BBC with the encouragement from Ian Matthew are providing some great sources of information for doing mashups and organising some great events like Hackday, but this mailing list is just becoming a BBC Bashing list. Good plan! Might I recommend (having run many a mailing list in my time) that we, the users of this list, do not accept wildly off-topic conversation and mail people, off list, to enforce this? //j - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Can we have a developer mailing list?
James Cridland wrote: On 7/29/07, *Adam Leach* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there any chance of a separate developer list for discussion of APIs, services, Geek events, etc. The BBC with the encouragement from Ian Matthew are providing some great sources of information for doing mashups and organising some great events like Hackday, but this mailing list is just becoming a BBC Bashing list. Good plan! Might I recommend (having run many a mailing list in my time) that we, the users of this list, do not accept wildly off-topic conversation and mail people, off list, to enforce this? //j So I know we talked about this before. One of the site changes will be multiple forums. We don't want to spread the list topics too far but yes one mailing list is becoming troublesome with the diversity of discussions. Were happy to accept slightly off topic discussions and we can live with a certain amount of constructive bashing. I know you all take part because deep down you all care about the BBC and just want to see it do the right things. I know this isn't a conclusive answer but we're working on it. Cheers Ian - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Kontiki Backlash
With regards to EULAs, I think we all saw from the Sony DRM 'incident' that EULAs have been ruled virtually unenforceable. I'm prepared to seed content I've downloadd whilst it's downloading, and maybe seed it for a little while afterwards, but I'm much less generous than when I'm torrenting because the content will always be available from the BBC servers, and we are paying for this service after all. Here's hoping that the BBC takes onboard the suggestions from people like me with regards to the ability to control whether your client seeds content once you've downloaded it... Here's hoping the Kontiki client can actually be configured to do so! I foresee ISPs enforcing QoS for upload data from Kontiki so that it slows to a crawl as a way around this... But that won't be after a whole load of huge bills from providers to customers, along with the associated uproar and a few months of in-circles discussion as to how the best way to proceed to counter-act this unwanted behaviour will be. Maybe the Beeb WILL just drop Kontiki eventually and do what BBC America is doing, using Vuze as their CDN and just keeping the DRM backend for the geoip authorisation? (as has been mentioned before)... It's starting to look more and more like that viable solution for the interim! -Original Message- From: Simon Cobb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 July 2007 13:17 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: RE: [backstage] Kontiki Backlash That IS funny, but how many folks ever ever read the t's and c's? I know I don't: http://www.eff.org/wp/eula.php and http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000892.html S. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Bowyer Sent: 30 July 2007 12:51 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Kontiki Backlash On 30/07/07, James Bridle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The software runs without your knowledge, although you agree to this in the terms and conditions. Splorf! -- Peter Bowyer Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Kontiki Backlash
On 30/07/07, Christopher Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With regards to EULAs, I think we all saw from the Sony DRM 'incident' that EULAs have been ruled virtually unenforceable. I'm prepared to seed content I've downloadd whilst it's downloading, and maybe seed it for a little while afterwards, but I'm much less generous than when I'm torrenting because the content will always be available from the BBC servers, and we are paying for this service after all. Here's hoping that the BBC takes onboard the suggestions from people like me with regards to the ability to control whether your client seeds content once you've downloaded it... Here's hoping the Kontiki client can actually be configured to do so! I foresee ISPs enforcing QoS for upload data from Kontiki so that it slows to a crawl as a way around this... But that won't be after a whole load of huge bills from providers to customers, along with the associated uproar and a few months of in-circles discussion as to how the best way to proceed to counter-act this unwanted behaviour will be. Maybe the Beeb WILL just drop Kontiki eventually and do what BBC America is doing, using Vuze as their CDN and just keeping the DRM backend for the geoip authorisation? (as has been mentioned before)... It's starting to look more and more like that viable solution for the interim! So far my graphical network monitor traffic stats show iPLayer only uploading while actually downloading, using circa 70% upload bandwidth. Perhaps it's been set to a 'semi-p2p' where the client machines support the BBC servers by uploading only during actual downloads. My guess is that when evening comes it may become more active (it's supposed to be 'dynamic') - if the BBC servers start to struggle we may see heavier action. Very little info on Kontiki - owned by Verisign, duh. Wayback Machine is overloaded right now - can't look at their earlier sites heh heh, I'll try that early in the morning. I'm a big Azureus fan - not tried Vuze, essentially a skinned DRMd AZ2.5 with tweaks hidden but available: http://www.azureuswiki.com/index.php/Azureus_2_and_Vuze Azureus 2.5 has binaries for Win/Linux/MAC/BSD but Vuze is Win only d/t DRM I guess. Regards, Nico Morrison __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: nicomorrison __ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] iPlayer Today?
At 10:51 +0100 30/7/07, Gareth Davis wrote: On 7/29/07, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Must be full moon soon. There really was a full moon last night, although reports of Ian becoming a Werewolf are apparently wide of the mark :) Monday, July 30, 2007: Full Moon 1:45am (BST) That is 0:45 UTC But are we off topic? :-) Gordo -- Think Feynman/ http://pobox.com/~gordo/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]/// - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Can we have a developer mailing list?
, but this mailing list is just becoming a BBC Bashing list. From time to time there has been (mostly around iPlayer) some strong criticism of how the BBC develops products. That's good. When Tom L once kicked off this list, in his first post/introduction he said that the Noise *is* the signal. So I'm happy to hear. In fact I'm keen to hear how criticism of how we do stuff. If that includes the iplayer roadmap, the OSC, our use of Firefox, time expiry DRM then so be it. If that means having to talk about or explain what we do ...again. Then that's what we're here for. I think James is right that we collectively should steer the list in the right direction from time to time (good tips sir!) but as for BBC Bashing. If its about how we develop our stuff then good. Happy to hear it. Now where was that explanation about the licencing of Fairplay again ;) Thanks. Jem - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
