Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Ben O'Connor]

Hi Everyone,

I agree with Alia, can't we all just get along ?

If this is to be a competition about rich internet applications, then  
the competition could be open to AIR and alternatives, such as Google  
Gears etc. That is likely to appeal to our various sub-communities  
better. Also, wouldn't that be interesting in itself ?! All these  
fevered developers taking an opening concept and applying it to their  
'colours' about open this, proprietary that. I'm sure the end user  
isn't bothered, as long as the final result is something that makes  
them get all teary and touch the screen, as they whisper "home".  
Offering guidelines but not restrictions makes it more like a sort of  
X-prize or Darpa race then. With a broad goal to work toward, that  
leaves plenty of room to go off in different directions and that  
allows for a nice, healthy gorge of innovation and ideas.


That's how I feel about it anyway.

Ben O'Connor


On 4 Jul 2008, at 03:39, Alia Sheikh wrote:


Oh I promised myself that I wouldn;t get involved, but yay Godzilla!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RFEzpUsUBk


Ian - I'd like to know more about the competition.  If all we know  
is that it's using AIR then that's all we'll argue^H^H^H^H^Htalk  
about.  Whats it actually going to be?  Is Backstage runnning it or  
is someone else? Also are competitions going to be a regular thing/ 
will we get to play with lots of stuff eventually or is this a one  
off?

Oh, and I crush everything:)

Alia

Richard Lockwood wrote:



On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Dave Crossland <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:


   2008/7/3 Matt Barber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   >:
   > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Ian Forrester
   <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
   >>
   >> If we ran a competition which required the final prototype to
   be in Adobe
   >> Air, how would people feel about that?
   >
   > No problem with that.

   There is a large problem with that - Adobe Air is proprietary
   software, so it ought to be boycotted.

You boycott it Dave, if it makes you happy.  The rest of us can  
carry on living in the real world.




   > It's using a new technology and product to encourage
   > development, and the technology is available to end users easily
   and with
   > little effort, on multiple platforms.

   But it tramples our freedom and community, which are more  
important.


No Dave, you're thinking of Godzilla.
Rich.


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[backstage] Quick idea for BBC News video

[Matt Barber]

Hi, just browsing the news and I wanted to send a link to a friend, and was
wondering if it would be good to have a switch we could append to the URL,
to make the video play automatically. Unsure if this would in some ways be
detrimental - i.e. I could then force someone to unwittingly start a video,
and at work with the sound up that could cause problems for some people,
also maybe it's a feature that noone would use... but yeh, just a thought.
As it's said, the signal is the noise!

Ta, Matt

[backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[David]

David saw this story on the BBC News website and thought you
should see it.

** Message **
Not seen this pop up on the list...

** It's not the Gates, it's the bars **
Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation, on the departure of 
Bill Gates.
< http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/technology/7487060.stm >


** BBC Daily E-mail **
Choose the news and sport headlines you want - when you want them, all
in one daily e-mail
< http://www.bbc.co.uk/email >


** Disclaimer **
The BBC is not responsible for the content of this e-mail, and anything written 
in this e-mail does not necessarily reflect the BBC's views or opinions. Please 
note that neither the e-mail address nor name of the sender have been verified.

If you do not wish to receive such e-mails in the future or want to know more 
about the BBC's Email a Friend service, please read our frequently asked 
questions. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/help/4162471.stm

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Re: [backstage] Quick idea for BBC News video

[Peter Bowyer]

You pretty much talked yourself out of that one, then :-)

Peter

2008/7/4 Matt Barber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hi, just browsing the news and I wanted to send a link to a friend, and was
> wondering if it would be good to have a switch we could append to the URL,
> to make the video play automatically. Unsure if this would in some ways be
> detrimental - i.e. I could then force someone to unwittingly start a video,
> and at work with the sound up that could cause problems for some people,
> also maybe it's a feature that noone would use... but yeh, just a thought.
> As it's said, the signal is the noise!
>
> Ta, Matt
>
>
>



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Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[backstage] BBC News : It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[David Greaves]

Not seen this pop up on the list:
  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7487060.stm

Not so much the message which not everyone agrees with - but I am impressed to
see the point-of-view coming from a mainstream source :)

David
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Re: [backstage] BBC News : It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[Dan Brickley]

David Greaves wrote:

Not seen this pop up on the list:
  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7487060.stm

Not so much the message which not everyone agrees with - but I am impressed to
see the point-of-view coming from a mainstream source :)


Richard Stallman is a mainstream source now? Damn I overslept the 
revolution again...


Dan

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Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[Fred Phillips]

On Fri Jul  4 08:39:26 2008, David wrote:
> ** It's not the Gates, it's the bars **
> Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation, on the departure 
> of Bill Gates.
> < http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/technology/7487060.stm >

Meh, doesn’t really say anything new. It’s good that free software is
getting some exposure from the likes of the BBC, even if it is a
little hypocritical.
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Re: [backstage] Quick idea for BBC News video

[Dan Brickley]

Peter Bowyer wrote:

You pretty much talked yourself out of that one, then :-)

Peter

2008/7/4 Matt Barber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

Hi, just browsing the news and I wanted to send a link to a friend, and was
wondering if it would be good to have a switch we could append to the URL,
to make the video play automatically. Unsure if this would in some ways be
detrimental - i.e. I could then force someone to unwittingly start a video,
and at work with the sound up that could cause problems for some people,
also maybe it's a feature that noone would use... but yeh, just a thought.
As it's said, the signal is the noise!


And don't forget browser restarts. Here's the sound of my Firefox 3 
re-opening 50 tabs... http://danbri.org/words/2008/05/02/311

-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHsI0UBwh5E

cheers,

Dan

--
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Re: [backstage] BBC News : It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[David Greaves]

Dan Brickley wrote:
> David Greaves wrote:
>> Not seen this pop up on the list:
>>   http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7487060.stm
>>
>> Not so much the message which not everyone agrees with - but I am
>> impressed to
>> see the point-of-view coming from a mainstream source :)
> 
> Richard Stallman is a mainstream source now? Damn I overslept the
> revolution again...

Well, you certainly missed the point...

The BBC (not the FSF) are putting forward Mr Stallman's opinion for wider
consideration. Given the impact linux has had, it's about time the
'philosophical' approaches (plural) to it were given a wider airing.

Good to see.

David
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Re: [backstage] Quick idea for BBC News video

[Matt Barber]

> Peter Bowyer wrote:
>
>> You pretty much talked yourself out of that one, then :-)
>>
>>
Haha indeed...



>
> And don't forget browser restarts. Here's the sound of my Firefox 3
> re-opening 50 tabs... http://danbri.org/words/2008/05/02/311
> -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHsI0UBwh5E
>

Could bring a whole new world to the idea of a rickroll... 'Hey have you
seen the latest from BBC News?'...Never gonna give you up!

Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Fred Phillips]

On Thu Jul  3 21:46:16 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Dave Crossland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > 2008/7/3 Matt Barber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Ian Forrester <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >>
> > >> If we ran a competition which required the final prototype to be in
> > Adobe
> > >> Air, how would people feel about that?
> > >
> > > No problem with that.
> >
> > There is a large problem with that - Adobe Air is proprietary
> > software, so it ought to be boycotted.
> 
> 
> You boycott it Dave, if it makes you happy.  The rest of us can carry on
> living in the real world.

You mean that world where you berate people for their morals? To be
honest, I don’t really want to live there.

> > > It's using a new technology and product to encourage
> > > development, and the technology is available to end users easily and with
> > > little effort, on multiple platforms.
> >
> > But it tramples our freedom and community, which are more important.
> 
> 
> No Dave, you're thinking of Godzilla.
> 
> Rich.

Have you ever considered your freedom, or do you thrive off being
facetious?


pgp64TW9Ykdft.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Richard Lockwood]

>
>
>
>
>
Have you ever considered your freedom, or do you thrive off being
> facetious?
>


Yes.  I regular consider my freedom.  My freedom to consider, carefully
think about and, where appropriate amend my views.  My rights to not be
hectored, badgered and lectured at, at every possible opportunity, by people
who consider their views (or rather, views that they've taken verbatim from
a third party) the only possible moral stance, and by people who use
inflammatory and emotive words such as "evil" in entirely inappropriate
circumstances.

How about you?

Rich.

Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[David Greaves]

Fred Phillips wrote:
> On Fri Jul  4 08:39:26 2008, David wrote:
>> ** It's not the Gates, it's the bars **
>> Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation, on the departure 
>> of Bill Gates.
>> < http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/technology/7487060.stm >
> 
> Meh, doesn’t really say anything new. It’s good that free software is
> getting some exposure from the likes of the BBC, even if it is a
> little hypocritical.

True but look at the license for the article - how many articles does the BBC
News produce under a CC license?

David

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[backstage] UNSUBSCRIBE ME PLEAS£!

[Adam Hatia]

 



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Lockwood
Sent: 04 July 2008 10:24
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

 



 

Have you ever considered your freedom, or do you thrive off being
facetious?



Yes.  I regular consider my freedom.  My freedom to consider, carefully think 
about and, where appropriate amend my views.  My rights to not be hectored, 
badgered and lectured at, at every possible opportunity, by people who consider 
their views (or rather, views that they've taken verbatim from a third party) 
the only possible moral stance, and by people who use inflammatory and emotive 
words such as "evil" in entirely inappropriate circumstances.

 

How about you?

 

Rich.

Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[simon]

Ben's suggestion to allow the people to choose their RIA flavour whether it
be AIR, gears or whatever is very sensible.

Surely the main thing is that a good idea gets built.







On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Richard Lockwood <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>>
>>
>>
> Have you ever considered your freedom, or do you thrive off being
>> facetious?
>>
>
>
> Yes.  I regular consider my freedom.  My freedom to consider, carefully
> think about and, where appropriate amend my views.  My rights to not be
> hectored, badgered and lectured at, at every possible opportunity, by people
> who consider their views (or rather, views that they've taken verbatim from
> a third party) the only possible moral stance, and by people who use
> inflammatory and emotive words such as "evil" in entirely inappropriate
> circumstances.
>
> How about you?
>
> Rich.
>

Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Dave Crossland]

2008/7/4 simon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Ben's suggestion to allow the people to choose their RIA flavour whether it
> be AIR, gears or whatever is very sensible.
>
> Surely the main thing is that a good idea gets built.

Surely the main thing is that we preserve our freedom to understand
and share the software we use to do our computation.

Using software running on other people's servers to do _our_
computation also tramples our freedom, and this is becoming more
common with RIA technology.

"If your software would keep us divided and helpless, please don't
write it. We are better off without it. We will find other ways to use
our computers, and preserve our freedom."
- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7487060.stm

Cheers,
Dave
Personal opinion only.
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Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Matt Barber]

Oops, posted that without a subject and on a new thread... here you are:

On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Dave Crossland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 2008/7/4 simon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > Ben's suggestion to allow the people to choose their RIA flavour whether
> it
> > be AIR, gears or whatever is very sensible.
> >
> > Surely the main thing is that a good idea gets built.
>
> Surely the main thing is that we preserve our freedom to understand
> and share the software we use to do our computation.
>
> Using software running on other people's servers to do _our_
> computation also tramples our freedom, and this is becoming more
> common with RIA technology.
>
> "If your software would keep us divided and helpless, please don't
> write it. We are better off without it. We will find other ways to use
> our computers, and preserve our freedom."
> - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7487060.stm
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
> Personal opinion only.
>






This software by Adobe that makes it easier to deploy cross-platform,
desktop apps, and to use AJAX, HTML, Flash, and have it running
offline/online - and these skills would be useful in other situations too -
seems cool.
In regard to the.. discussion that this competition thread has become - this
is the double edged sword when such an organisation as the BBC gets
involved. Because they are open, friendly and quite frankly damn good I
think at letting other people fudge around with their stuff - and listening
back too, it is such an understated forum for expression of creative ideas
and technological solutions. But as it's publically funded, this gets pushed
aside with facts and figures of 'openness' and 'fair' use of 'free'
software.
Also, the subject of 'free' software alone could fill entire libraries with
[philosophical discussion|rants|arguments|insults|etc] - but is this why we
are here?
I'm here to have fun and to maybe try out some new things, and to read
interesting points of view on technology and the BBC.

This competition idea introduces a viable, probably robust option, that
finally allows multiple platforms to converse and use an app. It might be
something people can dig their teeth into, have a bit of fun with, and maybe
even god forbid make something useful that people can actually use? Or
should we insist that Windows is wrong, Flash is evil and anyone that says
otherwise is an idiot?

Well call me an idiot, but I love what Flash brought to the table many years
ago with it's easy to use scripting and tools, and I actually *enjoy* using
Windows on my PC. Hell, I even use Windows Media Player. It may surprise you
that I sometimes watch BBC TV and listen to the radio, too...


Please enjoy the freedom to discuss and have a point of view, but it
sometimes gets a little ridiculous.

[backstage]

[Matt Barber]

This software by Adobe that makes it easier to deploy cross-platform,
desktop apps, and to use AJAX, HTML, Flash, and have it running
offline/online - and these skills would be useful in other situations too -
seems cool.
In regard to the.. discussion that this competition thread has become - this
is the double edged sword when such an organisation as the BBC gets
involved. Because they are open, friendly and quite frankly damn good I
think at letting other people fudge around with their stuff - and listening
back too, it is such an understated forum for expression of creative ideas
and technological solutions. But as it's publically funded, this gets pushed
aside with facts and figures of 'openness' and 'fair' use of 'free'
software.
Also, the subject of 'free' software alone could fill entire libraries with
[philosophical discussion|rants|arguments|insults|etc] - but is this why we
are here?
I'm here to have fun and to maybe try out some new things, and to read
interesting points of view on technology and the BBC.

This competition idea introduces a viable, probably robust option, that
finally allows multiple platforms to converse and use an app. It might be
something people can dig their teeth into, have a bit of fun with, and maybe
even god forbid make something useful that people can actually use? Or
should we insist that Windows is wrong, Flash is evil and anyone that says
otherwise is an idiot?

Well call me an idiot, but I love what Flash brought to the table many years
ago with it's easy to use scripting and tools, and I actually *enjoy* using
Windows on my PC. Hell, I even use Windows Media Player. It may surprise you
that I sometimes watch BBC TV and listen to the radio, too...


Please enjoy the freedom to discuss and have a point of view, but it
sometimes gets a little ridiculous.

Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Peter Bowyer]

2008/7/4 Dave Crossland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 2008/7/4 simon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> Ben's suggestion to allow the people to choose their RIA flavour whether it
>> be AIR, gears or whatever is very sensible.
>>
>> Surely the main thing is that a good idea gets built.
>
> Surely the main thing is that we preserve our freedom to understand
> and share the software we use to do our computation.

No.

-- 
Peter Bowyer
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Follow me on Twitter: twitter.com/peeebeee
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RE: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

Hadn't noticed the CC licence - now that is good 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Greaves
Sent: 04 July 2008 10:29
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

Fred Phillips wrote:
> On Fri Jul  4 08:39:26 2008, David wrote:
>> ** It's not the Gates, it's the bars ** Richard Stallman, founder of 
>> the Free Software Foundation, on the departure of Bill Gates.
>> < http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/technology/7487060.stm >
> 
> Meh, doesn't really say anything new. It's good that free software is 
> getting some exposure from the likes of the BBC, even if it is a 
> little hypocritical.

True but look at the license for the article - how many articles does
the BBC News produce under a CC license?

David

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Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Richard Lockwood]

No Dave.

The main thing *for you* is that you preserve *your* perceived freedom.  For
a lot of us, that isn't the main thing at all.  Please stop making sweeping
statements as though your world view is the only one.  If you don't want to
use non-"free" software, then don't.  Don't go trying to impose your
restrictions on the rest of us.  You don't want to code with AIR, then
don't.  Simple solution.

As ever Dave, it's all about *you*, and what *you* want.

Rich.

On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Dave Crossland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 2008/7/4 simon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > Ben's suggestion to allow the people to choose their RIA flavour whether
> it
> > be AIR, gears or whatever is very sensible.
> >
> > Surely the main thing is that a good idea gets built.
>
> Surely the main thing is that we preserve our freedom to understand
> and share the software we use to do our computation.
>
> Using software running on other people's servers to do _our_
> computation also tramples our freedom, and this is becoming more
> common with RIA technology.
>
> "If your software would keep us divided and helpless, please don't
> write it. We are better off without it. We will find other ways to use
> our computers, and preserve our freedom."
> - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7487060.stm
>
> Cheers,
>  Dave
> Personal opinion only.
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>  Unofficial list archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>



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Registered address:
4 Swallow Court, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6XX

Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Alia Sheikh]

Simon, Ben - I like that idea.  Use whatever tools you like.  Get a 
thing built.  Assess success or failure, lather rinse repeat.


Ian - your original question was this:
"If we ran a competition which required the final prototype to be in 
Adobe Air, how would people feel about that?"


So ok we now have some answers.  Clearly some people have strong 
feelings about not using AIR - as in specifically boycotting it, other 
people don't have any problem with using it and there are, I'm sure, 
lots of shades of grey in between.


It does seem like there would be enthusiasm for a competition of some 
sort involving writing RIAs, with lots of options for tools-of-choice.  
(Correct me if I'm wrong here guys).  So what I'd absolutely love is a 
bit more clarity on what prompted the quesiton in the first place.


As far as any suggestions go, I think it would be great to let people 
use whatever tools their personal belief system allowed, without 
restricting anyone else's freedom to make their own choices. 

If a competition was run that was promoted by and affiliated with 
Backstage that was focused entirely on a single technology (be it 
whatever) then it could be argued that we were failing to be even a 
little bit thorough in our investigative approach. 

If Adobe wish to run something and Backstage is generally interested in 
the output of it, then that is a different kettle of squid - it's 
understandable that Adobe would run a competition biased towards an 
Adobe product and Backstagers should feel free to take part as they see 
fit. 

I would be incredibly unhappy with a curtailment of my rights to learn, 
understand and investigate for the sake of a single viewpoint/belief 
system, which (whatever it's merits) is not one that every person on 
this list has subscribed to.  I would also be unhappy if we were seen to 
be playing favourites.


I've left this list once before, because whilst it's full of interesting 
people, I've absolutely no interest in watching them bang their heads 
against each other in the same way over and over again.  I still have no 
interest in that.  Whilst it is your right to speak it is also everyone 
elses right to not to have to listen.  If this is going to get 
religious, then I'm out of here.


So yeah, Ian - more clarity please.

All my love,

Alia











Dave Crossland wrote:

2008/7/4 simon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
  

Ben's suggestion to allow the people to choose their RIA flavour whether it
be AIR, gears or whatever is very sensible.

Surely the main thing is that a good idea gets built.



Surely the main thing is that we preserve our freedom to understand
and share the software we use to do our computation.

Using software running on other people's servers to do _our_
computation also tramples our freedom, and this is becoming more
common with RIA technology.

"If your software would keep us divided and helpless, please don't
write it. We are better off without it. We will find other ways to use
our computers, and preserve our freedom."
- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7487060.stm

Cheers,
Dave
Personal opinion only.
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RE: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[Gareth Davis]

Anyone else find it strange that Richard Stallman feels it is apparently
unjust for Microsoft and others to publish software that users are not
free to share and modify, but it is ok to publish an article which
readers are not free to share and modify?

Just a thought.

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick 
> Reynolds-FM&T
> Sent: 04 July 2008 11:51
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Subject: RE: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
> 
> Hadn't noticed the CC licence - now that is good 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Greaves
> Sent: 04 July 2008 10:29
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
> 
> Fred Phillips wrote:
> > On Fri Jul  4 08:39:26 2008, David wrote:
> >> ** It's not the Gates, it's the bars ** Richard Stallman, 
> founder of 
> >> the Free Software Foundation, on the departure of Bill Gates.
> >> < http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/technology/7487060.stm >
> > 
> > Meh, doesn't really say anything new. It's good that free 
> software is 
> > getting some exposure from the likes of the BBC, even if it is a 
> > little hypocritical.
> 
> True but look at the license for the article - how many 
> articles does the BBC News produce under a CC license?
> 
> David
> 
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Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[Fearghas McKay]

On 4 Jul 2008, at 12:24, Gareth Davis wrote:

Anyone else find it strange that Richard Stallman feels it is  
apparently

unjust for Microsoft and others to publish software that users are not
free to share and modify, but it is ok to publish an article which
readers are not free to share and modify?


This is the man who objects to having vegetarians in a dinner group  
because apparently it restricts his freedom to choose food.


So no I don't find it strange.

f
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RE: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

I thought the CC licence at the bottom allowed this. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fearghas McKay
Sent: 04 July 2008 12:49
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars


On 4 Jul 2008, at 12:24, Gareth Davis wrote:

> Anyone else find it strange that Richard Stallman feels it is 
> apparently unjust for Microsoft and others to publish software that 
> users are not free to share and modify, but it is ok to publish an 
> article which readers are not free to share and modify?

This is the man who objects to having vegetarians in a dinner group
because apparently it restricts his freedom to choose food.

So no I don't find it strange.

f
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Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[Rob Myers]

On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 12:24 PM, Gareth Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Anyone else find it strange that Richard Stallman feels it is apparently
> unjust for Microsoft and others to publish software that users are not
> free to share and modify, but it is ok to publish an article which
> readers are not free to share and modify?


If he's using his standard licence then you are free to copy it verbatim and
share it.

Stallman believes that works of opinion are different from pieces of
software. He is concerned that arbitrary modifications of a work of opinion
could lead to misrepresentation, and he's not alone in that. Software
doesn't really have that problem, so he's right that they are different.

I don't agree with his conclusions on this particular issue, I'm just trying
to explain that his position is coherent.

- Rob.

Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Alan Pope]

On Thu, Jul 03, 2008 at 04:41:00PM +0100, Ian Forrester wrote:
>If we ran a competition which required the final prototype to be in Adobe
>Air, how would people feel about that?
> 
>There's a run time and SDK for Win, OSx and now gnu/Linux.
> 

32-bit only on Linux unfortunately, so not _quite_ cross platform. 

"Important: This prerelease of Adobe AIR for Linux is alpha-quality and is 
not feature complete. If you are looking for Adobe AIR for Macintosh or 
Windows, please go to Adobe.com."

http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/air/

Cheers,
Al.
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Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[Alan Pope]

On Fri, Jul 04, 2008 at 12:24:24PM +0100, Gareth Davis wrote:
> Anyone else find it strange that Richard Stallman feels it is apparently
> unjust for Microsoft and others to publish software that users are not
> free to share and modify, but it is ok to publish an article which
> readers are not free to share and modify?
> 

I can see what you're getting at but they are entirely different beasts. An 
article (or even many hundreds of articles) isn't running inside your 
computer preventing you from (for example) playing back a movie you 
downloaded 32 days ago. It's an inert piece of text. 

I've seen RMS give a talk at FOSDEM a few years ago where he covered his 
opinions on copyright and how there should be different rules for software, 
art, articles and so on. I'm sure that there's probably a copy online 
somewhere. 

(besides the fact that there is a cc license on that article of course)

Cheers,
Al.
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RE: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[Gareth Davis]

It uses CC-ND which only allows sharing with attribution, it does not
allow commercial reuse or you to 'alter, transform or build upon this
work'

http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/2.5/
  

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick 
> Reynolds-FM&T
> Sent: 04 July 2008 12:58
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Subject: RE: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars
> 
> I thought the CC licence at the bottom allowed this. 
> 

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Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Fred Phillips]

On Fri Jul  4 11:59:45 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote:

> If you don't want to use non-"free" software, then don't.  Don't go
> trying to impose your restrictions on the rest of us.  You don't
> want to code with AIR, then don't.  Simple solution.

But it is suggested that this competition be _only_ provided to people
who use non‐free software. It’s not a simple solution, if people
choose not use Adobe AIR they cannot enter the competition.


pgp3uhWOHlcMT.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[Rob Myers]

On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Gareth Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> It uses CC-ND which only allows sharing with attribution, it does not
> allow commercial reuse or you to 'alter, transform or build upon this
> work'


ND does allow commercial use. NC-ND would prevent commercial use.

He doesn't mention BY or the version. He should. Only the old 1.0 CC
licences had a standalone ND.

ND is equivalent to the old one-line verbatim distribution licence he used
to use, and his reasons for doing so have to do with the difference between
source code and works of opinion.

- Rob.

Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Phil Wilson]

I've left this list once before, because whilst it's full of interesting 
people, I've absolutely no interest in watching them bang their heads 
against each other in the same way over and over again.  I still have no 
interest in that.  Whilst it is your right to speak it is also everyone 
elses right to not to have to listen.  If this is going to get 
religious, then I'm out of here.


I have a filter which deletes certain emails automatically for this very 
reason. ;)

I would like to see an RIA competition, restricting it to AIR seems a bit strange though 
(although it's now bundled with Adobe Reader 9 which I imagine makes it more compelling).


Unrelated, but seeing as they're here: many thanks to Alia, Matt, Ian and everyone else 
who helped make Mashed so great!


Phil
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Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Fred Phillips]

On Fri Jul  4 10:24:29 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote:
> > Have you ever considered your freedom, or do you thrive off being
> > facetious?
> >
> 
> 
> Yes.  I regular consider my freedom.  My freedom to consider, carefully
> think about and, where appropriate amend my views.  My rights to not be
> hectored, badgered and lectured at, at every possible opportunity, by people
> who consider their views (or rather, views that they've taken verbatim from
> a third party) the only possible moral stance, and by people who use
> inflammatory and emotive words such as "evil" in entirely inappropriate
> circumstances.
> 
> How about you?
> 
> Rich.

I have no taken my views verbatim. After researching free software I
found that the freedoms set out by GNU fit in line with my ethics
outside of software. I do not assume my views are the only possible
stance, but I do believe people who do not share my views to be
immoral.

Try to remember that by telling people what you think their views are
doesn’t make them so.


pgpW4sDF6uiya.pgp
Description: PGP signature

RE: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[Gareth Davis]

Rob Myers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Stallman believes that works of opinion are different from pieces of
software. He is concerned that arbitrary modifications of a work of
opinion could lead to misrepresentation, and he's not alone in that.
Software doesn't really have that problem, so he's right that they are
different. 

I don't agree with his conclusions on this particular issue, I'm just
trying to explain that his position is coherent.

Personally I don't agree with the conclusions either, but everyone is
entitled to their opinions.
 
I've no knowledge on Stallman philosophy on anything other than
software. It just jumped out the screen at me, that after the big long
article on freedom, you then get restrictions put on what you can do
with the article. I wouldn't have even considered it if the CC licence
had not been mentioned and the article was posted under the usual site
copyright terms. 
-- 
Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist


 

RE: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[Gareth Davis]

On 04 July 2008 at 13:32 ,   Rob Mayers wrote: 
On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Gareth Davis
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]  > wrote:


It uses CC-ND which only allows sharing with
attribution, it does not
allow commercial reuse or you to 'alter, transform or
build upon this
work'


ND does allow commercial use. NC-ND would prevent commercial
use.

He doesn't mention BY or the version. He should. Only the old
1.0 CC licences had a standalone ND.


ND is equivalent to the old one-line verbatim distribution
licence he used to use, and his reasons for doing so have to do with the
difference between source code and works of opinion.

- Rob.


I was just following the CC link posted in the news article, it states
no commercial use. Has the wrong version been linked?
-- 
Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist

Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[Rob Myers]

The ND licence is restrictive compared to copyleft but it is less
restrictive than normal copyright, because it allows commercial copying of
the work.

That said I do see where you're coming from, and I personally would much
rather Stallman just copylefted his writings. BY-SA and moral rights should
prevent misattribution of derivatives.

- Rob.

On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Gareth Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Rob Myers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Stallman believes that works of opinion are different from pieces of
> software. He is concerned that arbitrary modifications of a work of opinion
> could lead to misrepresentation, and he's not alone in that. Software
> doesn't really have that problem, so he's right that they are different.
>
> I don't agree with his conclusions on this particular issue, I'm just
> trying to explain that his position is coherent.
> Personally I don't agree with the conclusions either, but everyone is
> entitled to their opinions.
>
> I've no knowledge on Stallman philosophy on anything other than software.
> It just jumped out the screen at me, that after the big long article on
> freedom, you then get restrictions put on what you can do with the article.
> I wouldn't have even considered it if the CC licence had not been mentioned
> and the article was posted under the usual site copyright terms.
>
> --
> *Gareth Davis* | Production Systems Specialist
> **
>

Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[Rob Myers]

On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Gareth Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> I was just following the CC link posted in the news article, it states no
> commercial use. Has the wrong version been linked?
>

Yes, it looks like it. Is that an error from the author or the publisher?
Just so I know who to email. :-)

- Rob.

Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[Sean DALY]

I'm not sure I understand why one should have more "freedom" to twist
Mr. Stallman's words than the protection under copyright to reuse and
change traditional BBC articles.

Mr. Stallman can be demanding (I have interviewed him twice, a
daunting experience) but I think his message is very important. For my
part I'm very pleased the BBC has seen fit to publish that commentary.

Sean.


On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Gareth Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Rob Myers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Stallman believes that works of opinion are different from pieces of
> software. He is concerned that arbitrary modifications of a work of opinion
> could lead to misrepresentation, and he's not alone in that. Software
> doesn't really have that problem, so he's right that they are different.
>
> I don't agree with his conclusions on this particular issue, I'm just trying
> to explain that his position is coherent.
> Personally I don't agree with the conclusions either, but everyone is
> entitled to their opinions.
>
> I've no knowledge on Stallman philosophy on anything other than software. It
> just jumped out the screen at me, that after the big long article on
> freedom, you then get restrictions put on what you can do with the article.
> I wouldn't have even considered it if the CC licence had not been mentioned
> and the article was posted under the usual site copyright terms.
>
> --
> Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist
>
>
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Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[D P Ingram]

On 4 jul 2008, at 15.32, Rob Myers wrote:

Just an observation but why do all these damn CC licence variants need  
to be so complex. No wonder people can make mistakes with them..


Darren



¦ D P Ingram ¦ Ab Ingram Oy ¦
¦ darren at ingram.fi ¦  www.ingram.fi ¦
¦
¦ +358 6 781 0275 (FIN) ¦ +46 8 5511 4995 (SWE) ¦ +44 203 014 3839  
(UK) ¦

¦ extn 8001
¦

Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Richard Lockwood]

On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Fred Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> On Fri Jul  4 11:59:45 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote:
>
> > If you don't want to use non-"free" software, then don't.  Don't go
> > trying to impose your restrictions on the rest of us.  You don't
> > want to code with AIR, then don't.  Simple solution.
>
> But it is suggested that this competition be _only_ provided to people
> who use non‐free software. It's not a simple solution, if people
> choose not use Adobe AIR they cannot enter the competition.
>

"Mummy, the big boys won't let me play!!!"

You've made your bed - now lie in it.

R.

Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Richard Lockwood]

You may not.  A certain Mr Crossland does.

R.

On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Fred Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>  On Fri Jul  4 10:24:29 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote:
> > > Have you ever considered your freedom, or do you thrive off being
> > > facetious?
> > >
> >
> >
> > Yes.  I regular consider my freedom.  My freedom to consider, carefully
> > think about and, where appropriate amend my views.  My rights to not be
> > hectored, badgered and lectured at, at every possible opportunity, by
> people
> > who consider their views (or rather, views that they've taken verbatim
> from
> > a third party) the only possible moral stance, and by people who use
> > inflammatory and emotive words such as "evil" in entirely inappropriate
> > circumstances.
> >
> > How about you?
> >
> > Rich.
>
> I have no taken my views verbatim. After researching free software I
> found that the freedoms set out by GNU fit in line with my ethics
> outside of software. I do not assume my views are the only possible
> stance, but I do believe people who do not share my views to be
> immoral.
>
> Try to remember that by telling people what you think their views are
> doesn't make them so.
>



-- 
SilverDisc Ltd is registered in England no. 2798073

Registered address:
4 Swallow Court, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6XX

Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Fred Phillips]

On Fri Jul  4 15:16:03 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Fred Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri Jul  4 11:59:45 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote:
> >
> > > If you don't want to use non-"free" software, then don't.  Don't go
> > > trying to impose your restrictions on the rest of us.  You don't
> > > want to code with AIR, then don't.  Simple solution.
> >
> > But it is suggested that this competition be _only_ provided to people
> > who use non‐free software. It's not a simple solution, if people
> > choose not use Adobe AIR they cannot enter the competition.
> >
> 
> "Mummy, the big boys won't let me play!!!"
> 
> You've made your bed - now lie in it.
> 
> R.

So it’s okay to exlude people because of their beliefs?


pgpZqvfuXqoz8.pgp
Description: PGP signature

RE: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Adam Hatia]

I wish I could be excluded from this banal tit-for-tat kids game!


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fred Phillips
Sent: 04 July 2008 15:33
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

On Fri Jul  4 15:16:03 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Fred Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri Jul  4 11:59:45 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote:
> >
> > > If you don't want to use non-"free" software, then don't.  Don't go
> > > trying to impose your restrictions on the rest of us.  You don't
> > > want to code with AIR, then don't.  Simple solution.
> >
> > But it is suggested that this competition be _only_ provided to people
> > who use non‐free software. It's not a simple solution, if people
> > choose not use Adobe AIR they cannot enter the competition.
> >
> 
> "Mummy, the big boys won't let me play!!!"
> 
> You've made your bed - now lie in it.
> 
> R.

So it’s okay to exlude people because of their beliefs?
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Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[Rob Myers]

I agree that twisting people's words isn't good but the copyleft licences
such as BY-SA or the FDL do prevent mis-attribution of modified versions to
the original author.

- Rob.

On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Sean DALY <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'm not sure I understand why one should have more "freedom" to twist
> Mr. Stallman's words than the protection under copyright to reuse and
> change traditional BBC articles.
>
> Mr. Stallman can be demanding (I have interviewed him twice, a
> daunting experience) but I think his message is very important. For my
> part I'm very pleased the BBC has seen fit to publish that commentary.
>
> Sean.
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Gareth Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Rob Myers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Stallman believes that works of opinion are different from pieces of
> > software. He is concerned that arbitrary modifications of a work of
> opinion
> > could lead to misrepresentation, and he's not alone in that. Software
> > doesn't really have that problem, so he's right that they are different.
> >
> > I don't agree with his conclusions on this particular issue, I'm just
> trying
> > to explain that his position is coherent.
> > Personally I don't agree with the conclusions either, but everyone is
> > entitled to their opinions.
> >
> > I've no knowledge on Stallman philosophy on anything other than software.
> It
> > just jumped out the screen at me, that after the big long article on
> > freedom, you then get restrictions put on what you can do with the
> article.
> > I wouldn't have even considered it if the CC licence had not been
> mentioned
> > and the article was posted under the usual site copyright terms.
> >
> > --
> > Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist
> >
> >
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>  Unofficial list archive:
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Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Richard Lockwood]

On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 3:32 PM, Fred Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>  On Fri Jul  4 15:16:03 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Fred Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri Jul  4 11:59:45 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote:
> > >
> > > > If you don't want to use non-"free" software, then don't.  Don't go
> > > > trying to impose your restrictions on the rest of us.  You don't
> > > > want to code with AIR, then don't.  Simple solution.
> > >
> > > But it is suggested that this competition be _only_ provided to people
> > > who use non‐free software. It's not a simple solution, if people
> > > choose not use Adobe AIR they cannot enter the competition.
> > >
> >
> > "Mummy, the big boys won't let me play!!!"
> >
> > You've made your bed - now lie in it.
> >
> > R.
>
> So it's okay to exlude people because of their beliefs?
>

No.  It's OK to exclude people if they've made a practical decision knowing
that decision may exclude them.  In effect, if they exclude themselves.

R.

Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Peter Bowyer]

2008/7/4 Adam Hatia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> I wish I could be excluded from this banal tit-for-tat kids game!

Unfortunately, the modus operandi of this list allows repeated
regurgitation of tired freedom arguments and the religious wars that
ensue. Fortunately, on-topic content crops up often enough to stop the
whole list being completely swamped and rendered useless for its
intended purpose. Just.

-- 
Peter Bowyer
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Follow me on Twitter: twitter.com/peeebeee
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RE: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Kirsteen McNish]

can you please take me off this list please.
 
thanks



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Lockwood
Sent: 04 July 2008 15:58
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100



 
On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 3:32 PM, Fred Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Fri Jul  4 15:16:03 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Fred Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > On Fri Jul  4 11:59:45 2008, Richard Lockwood wrote:
> >
> > > If you don't want to use non-"free" software, then don't.  Don't 
go
> > > trying to impose your restrictions on the rest of us.  You don't
> > > want to code with AIR, then don't.  Simple solution.
> >
> > But it is suggested that this competition be _only_ provided to 
people
> > who use non‐free software. It's not a simple solution, if people
> > choose not use Adobe AIR they cannot enter the competition.
> >
>
> "Mummy, the big boys won't let me play!!!"
>
> You've made your bed - now lie in it.
>
> R.


So it's okay to exlude people because of their beliefs?



No.  It's OK to exclude people if they've made a practical decision knowing 
that decision may exclude them.  In effect, if they exclude themselves.
 
R.

Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[Dave Crossland]

2008/7/4 Fearghas McKay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> On 4 Jul 2008, at 12:24, Gareth Davis wrote:
>
>> Anyone else find it strange that Richard Stallman feels it is apparently
>> unjust for Microsoft and others to publish software that users are not
>> free to share and modify, but it is ok to publish an article which
>> readers are not free to share and modify?
>
> This is the man who objects to having vegetarians in a dinner group because
> apparently it restricts his freedom to choose food.
> So no I don't find it strange.

I am at the http://2008.rmll.info and sat next to Richard, and he says
that this is not true. (I hope you are just being fooled by a nasty
rumour, rather than making this stuff up.)

Generally I feel the list would be a lot better without all the ad
hominem nonsense.

-- 
Regards,
Dave
Personal opinion only.
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Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Michael]

On Thursday 03 July 2008 21:46:16 Richard Lockwood wrote:
..
> >  But it tramples our freedom and community, which are more important.
>  
> No Dave, you're thinking of Godzilla.

+1 QOTW


Michael.


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Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Michael]

On Thursday 03 July 2008 16:41:00 Ian Forrester wrote:
..
> If we ran a competition which required the final prototype to be in Adobe
> Air, how would people feel about that?

Suppose Blue Peter ran a competition for a new toy, but required that children 
only use Lego, what that be reasonable?

I think the discussion has gone off at a tangent (largely due to political
ranting presented as fact and the One True Truth).

It strikes me that you're asking how would people feel we ran a competion that 
required a particular vendor's technology. I'd personally feel that the 
vendor should run the competition myself. (just feels like free advertising 
otherwise) That's obviously my personal views though.

/Personally/ I think it would be more appropriate to suggest a competition
where the result was a cross platform desktop application which should
work on (say) Windows, Mac os X and Linux (and ideally not limited to
those, but they're the most common). That opens up the doors to a
variety of different things, including Adobe Air.

I suspect you'd get a lot more interesting variety - since you'd also open it
up to all sorts of things (including tech from the BBC...).

ie focus the competition on the what, rather than the how.

Regarding Alia's question I think you'd need to clarify if this is
a "competition without a prize" which would probably mean BBC
people could join in, or whether it was competition with a prize,
in which case we probably couldn't... (cf competition rules in
even things like Doctor Who Adventures magazine :-)

That said, any competition is better than none - after all, its the taking 
part and having fun that matters... :-)

Regards,


Michael.
(all personal thoughts)
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Re: [backstage] BBC E-mail: It's not the Gates, it's the bars

[Fearghas McKay]

On 4 Jul 2008, at 17:41, Dave Crossland wrote:


I am at the http://2008.rmll.info and sat next to Richard, and he says
that this is not true. (I hope you are just being fooled by a nasty
rumour, rather than making this stuff up.)



He said it to me.

He was sitting next to me.

It was directed at me.


Generally I feel the list would be a lot better without all the ad
hominem nonsense.


Well stop putting your words in our mouths.

I will now bow out of this conversation.

f
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Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Michael]

On Friday 04 July 2008 10:05:08 Fred Phillips wrote:
> You mean that world where you berate people for their morals? To be
> honest, I don’t really want to live there.

That's actually precisely what Dave does as well. My mail client auto-deletes 
mails from Dave since I decided I'd had enough when he started telling me I 
was wrong (and in his eyes probably evil) for actually buying, installing and 
running a piece of proprietary software on my Xorg/Qt/KDE/Suse/Gnu/Linux 
(hereinafter "Linux") system.

Life for me is easier, and its not because I'm judging him (he's fine to have 
whatever views he likes), but it's because I no longer have to listen to him 
sitting in judgement of me.

It's the corollary of the right to speak - the right not to listen. He
insisted on repeatedly judging me and others around me in ways I
feel invalid, so I stopped listening.

*shrug*

That's my guess about what Richard meant about "boycotting" Dave. He
might've been judging Dave as well, dunno. Not particularly interested really.
I'm here to talk about code, prototypes and fun stuff, not to persuade people 
that their views on freedom are "wrong". I don't expect it back, so I took 
Dave's suggestion of "deploying filters".


Michael.

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Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Michael]

On Friday 04 July 2008 15:50:29 Adam Hatia wrote:
> I wish I could be excluded from this banal tit-for-tat kids game!

There's the backstage-developer mailing list as well, for what it's worth.


Michael.
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Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Dan Brickley]

Dave Crossland wrote:

2008/7/4 simon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:



Surely the main thing is that we preserve our freedom to understand
and share the software we use to do our computation.


I propose a six-week moratorium on the use of the word 'surely' in this 
debate.



Using software running on other people's servers to do _our_
computation also tramples our freedom, and this is becoming more
common with RIA technology.


Yup. I find it has really trampled on my freedom to have Internet cables 
trailing all around the house, and my freedom to be constantly worrying 
about keeping everything security-patched. Freedom horrible freedom!


Dan

--
http://danbri.org/

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Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Michael (surely)]

On Friday 04 July 2008 20:13:07 Dan Brickley wrote:
> I propose a six-week moratorium on the use of the word 'surely' in this
> debate.

Surely, the way to surley eliminate the use of the word surely, one and surely 
for all is to (surely) overuse it as surely and to the best of our ability, 
surely, inorder to surely eliminate it from use, lest one surely, be shown to 
be of surely weak mind and thought for surely using a word that surely 
presumes too much about their own position, surely ?

Surely best regards,

;)

Michael.
(surely personal opinion)
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Re: [backstage] Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:40:58 +0100

[Peter Bowyer]

Surely not?

On 7/4/08, Michael (surely) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Friday 04 July 2008 20:13:07 Dan Brickley wrote:
>> I propose a six-week moratorium on the use of the word 'surely' in this
>> debate.
>
> Surely, the way to surley eliminate the use of the word surely, one and
> surely
> for all is to (surely) overuse it as surely and to the best of our ability,
> surely, inorder to surely eliminate it from use, lest one surely, be shown
> to
> be of surely weak mind and thought for surely using a word that surely
> presumes too much about their own position, surely ?
>
> Surely best regards,
>
> ;)
>
> Michael.
> (surely personal opinion)
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Peter Bowyer
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Re: [backstage] iPlayer 2 - wow!

[James Cridland]

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Brian Butterworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> The new iPlayer looks great and seems to work exceptionally well
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayerbeta/
>

...and it's now at www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer too. With one important addition:
RSS FEEDS. Yes. Mmm. They auto-detect too, and there are lots of them.

Links from BBC Radio will link to the older player (shortly to be renamed
the 'BBC player' - catchy, huh?) for the weekend, and we're shifting them
over gradually next week for reasons too boring to go into now.

So. Good. Let's play.

j

Re: [backstage] iPlayer 2 - wow!

[Matt Barber]

James, don't point, don't point at it.. Don't even look at it. These
go to eleven..

On 7/4/08, James Cridland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Brian Butterworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>> The new iPlayer looks great and seems to work exceptionally well
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayerbeta/
>>
>
> ...and it's now at www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer too. With one important addition:
> RSS FEEDS. Yes. Mmm. They auto-detect too, and there are lots of them.
>
> Links from BBC Radio will link to the older player (shortly to be renamed
> the 'BBC player' - catchy, huh?) for the weekend, and we're shifting them
> over gradually next week for reasons too boring to go into now.
>
> So. Good. Let's play.
>
> j
>
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