Re: lost link - will never found

[Hasan Elias]

I don't think the diferences between men and animals are only spiritual, that's why I asked why the Maester compared the memory of a pigeon with man. Are you saying human soul can act in a chimpanzee or an octopus?     I think men were always men; we are of a different order, as we are different from Manifestations.[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:  but what makes him unlike animals is something which is not physical and therefore not subject to scientific investigation. warmest, Susan  



 
 

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Re: lost link - will never found

[smaneck]

There 
> are *many*
> fossils already discovered that belonged to primate species that 
> precededthe split between the current living human and non-human 
> primates.

Dear Ron, 

I'm not thinking of early primates in general, I'm thinking more 
specifically of the common ancestor of man and the great apes. That 
has yet to be identified. 

> As you imply, Dr. Maneck, the term "Missing Link" has no 
> scientific meaning.
> There is no such thing as the missing link. Species continually 
> evolve and
> there is no sense in which any individual fossil remains represent 
> a special
> and unique  "missing link" .

Correct. But this was not something that was generally recognized in 
Abdu'l-Baha's time. There was popularly thought to be a 'link' between 
humanity and the apes as they currently existed, i.e. that we 
descended directly from Chimpanzees, for instance. 

>
 in other words, the 
> statement of
> the Master's being quoted, has no scientific meaning, and 
> therefore it can
> not be falsified nor proven correct; it is not a scientific 
statement.

Correct. What Abdu'l-Baha was debunking was a popular misunderstanding 
of evolution. 

warmest, Susan 



 
 
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Re: lost link - will never found

[smaneck]

> That doesn't seem to resolve the issue. The claim isn't that that
> there is no missing link from modern humans to modern apes. The claim
> is that "man was never an animal"

And that's a claim which I don't think science can prove or disprove. 
Clearly man is physically an animal, bu what makes him unlike animals 
is something which is not physical and therefore not subject to 
scientific investigation. 

warmest, Susan 


 
 
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Re: lost link - will never found

[firestorm]

the statement that such a link will never be found is in fact a scientific 
statement if one applies strict rules of scientific enquiry.
 the first of those rules in "what are we talking about"?
 and it is this question that the Master is addressing, imho.
 >>if<< man is a spiritual being, then no physical evidence of his existence at 
 >>point x can ever be found.
   manifestations of his >emergence< as a spiritual being interacting with a 
material existence can be found by my definitions, 100,000 years ago. it is 
quite possible that this date can be pushed back. 
   >>if<< man is a material being, then, again, no "missing link" can be found, 
for the reasons u present.
   in my pov, the Master is addressing the argument that there is some material 
construct that materially appears in man at some recognisable point making him 
"man" and n ot "ape." and He is saying such an ar gument  is false. 
   the discussion materialist/spiritualist is in my pov a discussion about the 
direction from which manifestations of attributes emerge...as either artifacts 
of inherently automated chemical processes, or from another plane, percepitble 
only thru the artifacts produced by the interaction.
   it is essentially the same argument as arguing for the location of "mind".
 and again, imho, those arguing that mind >>comes from<< brain are mistaking 
how for why.

 
 
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Re: Whoso claimeth a revelation direct from God

[firestorm]

allow me to open the door to the possibiliuty that these are 2 different 
applications.
   The Master is of course infallibly correct in speaking of the body of 
members of the Faith. 
 then let us take joseph smith, whom the Guardian at least once called a "seer".
   may we hypothesize, without violating any aspect of the Master's clear 
statement that in culture xyz, following religion abc there might arise those 
who will get Hit in the head with a major case of "o duh" and suddenly be 
empowered with insite such that they guide many others to praxes far closer in 
alignment with what is Outlined in the Tajalli and Tarazat than their culture 
previously could see?
   in other words, i hear Baha'u'llah saying no Ras'ul for 1k years,
and the Master saying no Nabi in the Baha'i Faith. but i don't hear the 2 
statements being the same. 

 
 
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Re: lost link - will never found

[Ursus Maximus]

Hello Susan and Hasan,
 
Dr. Maneck, while I often read a response like yours on the net, it is not completely correct, and because of this, it is misleading.  There are *many* fossils already discovered that belonged to primate species that preceded the split between the current living human and non-human primates. 

 
As you imply, Dr. Maneck, the term "Missing Link" has no scientific meaning. There is no such thing as the missing link. Species continually evolve and there is no sense in which any individual fossil remains represent a special and unique 
 "missing link" .
 
When dealing with fossil remains of more than 100,000 years, it is extremely difficult to assign any given fossil remains definitively to any one hypothetical species, much less to say with any certainly whether any particular living animal is directly descended from the particular species of which the fossilized animal may have been a part of. 

 
Thus, while your reply correctly points out that the concept of a "Missing Link" is not a valid scientific concept, your statement that 

 
"""And I think we can reasonably expect that at somepoint we will find the common ancestor of men and apes.""

 
is incorrect, because we have probably already found many such common ancestors, but for sure, it is certain that we will never find "the" common ancestor between men and apes because no such unique species exists, any more than it does for any two animals.

 
In other words, to try to get my point across, there is no difference between our understanding of human evolution and that of the evolution of any other random animal you may ask about; in other words, the statement of the Master's being quoted, has no scientific meaning, and therefore it can not be falsified nor proven correct; it is not a scientific statement.

 
Please understand, Susan, I am not trying to be quarrelsome or nitpicking at all, it is just that I have seen you make this same sort of statement 

 
And I think we can reasonably expect that at somepoint we will find the common ancestor of men and apes."""

 
Before on this list down through the years, and I believe it is a misleading statement.
 
Ron
 
 
 
On 4/26/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dear Hasan,During Abdu'l-Baha's time there were people who believed there wasa 'missing link' from which man descended from the apes which
currently inhabit our planet. That link does not exist. But there areinnumerable links tying us with previous hominids like theAustraliopithecus. And I think we can reasonabley expect that at somepoint we will find the common ancestor of men and apes.
warmest, Susan- Original Message -From: Hasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 10:14 amSubject: lost link - will never found
To: Baha'i Studies > Susan, Abdu'l-Bahá said that the link assumed to be missing> between man and animal will never be found:
>>  "The link which they say is lost is itself a proof that man was> never an animal. How is it possible to have all the links present> and that important link absent? Though one spend this precious
> life searching for this link, it is certain that it will never be> found.">  pp. 303-304; Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 359
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments> thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College> ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of
> only the individual or entity named above. The information may be> protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or> other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the> intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
> dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly> prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please> immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and> permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments
> thereto. Thank you.>>>The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.




 
 

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Re: lost link - will never found

[Gilberto Simpson]

Susan,

That doesn't seem to resolve the issue. The claim isn't that that
there is no missing link from modern humans to modern apes. The claim
is that "man was never an animal"

-Gilberto

On 4/26/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear Hasan,
>
> During Abdu'l-Baha's time there were people who believed there was
> a 'missing link' from which man descended from the apes which
> currently inhabit our planet. That link does not exist. But there are
> innumerable links tying us with previous hominids like the
> Australiopithecus. And I think we can reasonabley expect that at some
> point we will find the common ancestor of men and apes.
>
> warmest, Susan
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Hasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 10:14 am
> Subject: lost link - will never found
> To: Baha'i Studies 
>
> > Susan, Abdu'l-Bahá said that the link assumed to be missing
> > between man and animal will never be found:
> >
> >  "The link which they say is lost is itself a proof that man was
> > never an animal. How is it possible to have all the links present
> > and that important link absent? Though one spend this precious
> > life searching for this link, it is certain that it will never be
> > found."
> >  pp. 303-304; Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 359
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments
> > thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College
> > ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of
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> > intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
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> > prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please
> > immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and
> > permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments
> > thereto. Thank you.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: : Re: Science and Religion

[firestorm]

after a wilfull week off,
 i would offer another pass at the perceptual issues in some of the Master's 
comments.
 :" etheral MATTER as being an intellectual reality but
later statements imply that the vibrations of this matter exist:"
  yes. to exactly the same degree...which to say, as an intellectual reality.
   as i cited recently around here, thisd is a view utterly consistent with 
eistein, who said pretty much exactly the same thing..that intellectual 
realities allow us to form constructs with which we describe our apprehension 
of nature.
an overly simple example of this might be if i ask u to show me "one".
   u may show me one apple, one pear, one universe...as examples of an 
intellectual reality called "one". but you can neither show me "one" nor build 
a world view without its existence.
and i offer this an a personal view, neither overly right nor wrong, as to 
what the Master is referencing by "materialism". 
   there is a chicken/egg issue as to whether "one" comes into being by means 
of apple, pear, universe, or whether apple, pear, universe come into being--by 
means of some Incomprehensible Intent--as a side effect of there being "one" 
and thus possibly being "two" etc.
   the materialist, as i read the Master, confuses how with why, and insists on 
his confusion being truth. the "fundamentalist" or whatever makes the same 
mistake backwards.
   the religious seek to understand how their understanding of the "how" gives 
them the ability to enhance their performance in according with the "why". 


 
 
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Re: lost link - will never found

[smaneck]

Dear Hasan, 

During Abdu'l-Baha's time there were people who believed there was 
a 'missing link' from which man descended from the apes which 
currently inhabit our planet. That link does not exist. But there are 
innumerable links tying us with previous hominids like the 
Australiopithecus. And I think we can reasonabley expect that at some 
point we will find the common ancestor of men and apes. 

warmest, Susan 

- Original Message -
From: Hasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 10:14 am
Subject: lost link - will never found
To: Baha'i Studies 

> Susan, Abdu'l-Bahá said that the link assumed to be missing 
> between man and animal will never be found:
>   
>  "The link which they say is lost is itself a proof that man was 
> never an animal. How is it possible to have all the links present 
> and that important link absent? Though one spend this precious 
> life searching for this link, it is certain that it will never be 
> found."   
>  pp. 303-304; Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 359
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments 
> thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College 
> ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of 
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> prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please 
> immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and 
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> thereto. Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
 
 
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lost link - will never found

[Hasan Elias]

Susan, Abdu'l-Bahá said that the link assumed to be missing between man and animal will never be found:     "The link which they say is lost is itself a proof that man was never an animal. How is it possible to have all the links present and that important link absent? Though one spend this precious life searching for this link, it is certain that it will never be found."     pp. 303-304; Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 359 



 
 

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