Khazeh: Hadith and letters revealed by the Bab
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Khazeh, In your last message, you pretty much demonstrated that all Manifestations are equal. If so, then why does Bahaullah in the Iqan include the tradition that the Bab revealed all remaining letters of knowledge? This implies that the Bab revealed *a lot* of knowledge not revealed by Muhammad. Therefore, God cannot be equally accessed through Muhammad as He is through the Bab. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511418-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Honest observation: Susan Gilberto
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Susan and Gilberto, My honest observation is that you are not genuine in your messages. I think you are going around and around in circles of superstition. What I mean by this is that you are: 1. Assuming that an unknown exists and that the unknown is measureable. 2. You are both mixin religion and science. These two are in harmony, but they cannot be mixed. Sent by iPhone On Jun 28, 2010, at 7:41 AM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Khazeh, In your last message, you pretty much demonstrated that all Manifestations are equal. If so, then why does Bahaullah in the Iqan include the tradition that the Bab revealed all remaining letters of knowledge? This implies that the Bab revealed *a lot* of knowledge not revealed by Muhammad. Therefore, God cannot be equally accessed through Muhammad as He is through the Bab. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:haj...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511418-1520...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511420-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv No, certitude is something else. There is only One God. Not multiple Gods. Sent by iPhone On Jun 27, 2010, at 4:30 PM, Loïc ROYER l...@free.fr wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Belief is our only certitude! (or what?!) :-) hajmog a écrit : The Baha'i Studies Listserv Yes. :) And sometimes, belief turns into Certitude! Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:l...@free.fr Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511380-5368...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:haj...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511381-1520...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511438-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv As I said, I was trying to wrap up and I am reluctant to make detailed comments about the following. It looks like Matt Haase understood at least some of the points I made. Gilberto either didn't understand or misunderstood my comments. But I'm reluctant to try to clarify and reclarify again and again. However, I find Gilberto's comment about the Baha'i understanding of the issue of finality (Seal of the Prophets, etc.) and his reference to Baha'i metaphysical obfuscation very unhelpful and insulting. He owes an apology to the Baha'is on this list. The concept is very lucid, coherent, rational, in full agreement with the general theme and thrust of all religions and Sacred Scriptures, and there is no obfuscation. For me as a Baha'i, the idea that at some point in time (e.g., in 632) God decided to go into permanent retirement and leave humanity to its own devices forever, with-holding His grace and bounty forever, is unacceptable and far from His loving kindness, justice, and mercy. This is a discussion list and nobody is proselytizing Gilberto or anyone else because proselytizing is prohibited in the Baha'i Faith. Gilberto is here on his own accord and he can leave anytime he wants. (Actually, a few years ago, he was asked to leave this list and Susan told him that he was no longer welcome here). At any rate, nobody is proselytizing him here. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-511148-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 04:06:42 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:43 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Well, you know guys, this whole thing is rather funny: I pointed out that there definitely is a major difference about this najas issue in that whereas the Quran 9:28 clearly and explicitly says some folks are najas, Yes, except that most Muslims don't read the texts the way you do. this whole concept just does not exist in the Baha'I Faith at all. Yes, except for how there are ritual ablutions before prayer. Commandments to pray in unsullied clothes on a clean surface, preferably after bathing in rosewater. Different rules for menstruating women. And except for warnings that certain individuals have spiritual diseases and shunning covenant breakers. Then we moved to more common ground, which I think is more positive and more fruitful. Now, the emphasis is on differences, again. Do I really need to remind you that you and I belong to two different religions? I honestly don't know where you are coming from. What did I say to make you think I think you are Muslim? Isn't it better to build bridges and build on common ground than emphasize the differences? Yes, I often do that. MY sense is that Bahais want to assert the differences Heck, there are very real and very major and irreconcilable differences between Shi`ah and Sunni. Shall I recount them for you? I prefer not to. I think you are radically exaggerating the differences and there is still a large amount of common ground. But still I'm not sure what you are trying to say. No, we Baha'is do not go out of our way to invite a non-Baha'i to our 19-day feast. It is quite uninteresting for a non-Baha'i, but if you as a non-Baha'i want to attend it, you are welcome and you will not be barred. I honestly and without being facetious I think you specifically would be a gracious host if I just came and showed up. But based on the numerous letters from Shoghi Effendi and the UHJ which were in the link I gave it is abundantly that the Feasts are meant to be exclusively for Bahais. It's not just that it is boring but the Bahais would need to have a safe space to discuss all sorts of issues which they don't necessarily want aired in front of outsiders. And like I said earlier that is a valid need which I respect. But it IS exclusive. Also in terms of Mecca, even though entry by non-Muslim is NOT a religious question of ritual purity, in the US on multiple occasions you have pundits and politicians joking about nuking the Kaaba. I'm sure the same has been said elsewhere. And even under the status quo a few decades ago there was a siege of the Kaaba during Hajj and if you go back several centuries the Black Stone was even stolen for a time. It's not a tourist attraction like Disneyland. Why should everybody be able to go? I cannot get the directive for you right now from my cell phone; but if you really need it, I can get it for you. Or, Susan can get it for you. I'd love to go on pilgrimage to Mecca as a non-Muslim but the Saudi government won't permit that. And I suspect they will not listen to Gilberto or Matt telling them otherwise. Do I
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv But we get that info from the Dueteronomist source? The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 26 Jun 2010 at 20:09, Gilberto Simpson wrote: I think it seems like you are twisting and mischaracterizing what I wrote. Why couldn't one of the authors J,D, E or P actually have been Moses? And if so, his text would still be with us (mixed in with other things). If Moses lived until 950 BC to write the Yahwist source (the oldest extant one, which in turn contains fragments of earlier work), he would have been quite old (to put it mildly) and the fact would surely have been noted. But according to tradition, Moses died before the people crossed the Jordan river, and also before some of the kings of Edom named in the Yahwist source were ruling! The Old Testament is not a book sent down but the end result of an organic process in the community, extending over centuries. If Moses had a book -- which seems to me highly improbable -- it has been lost, as have the hypothetical books of Abraham and many others Sen -- -- Sen McGlinn http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com All is to be yielded up, save only the *remembrance* of God; all is to be dispraised, except His praise. Today, to this melody of the Company on high, the world will leap and dance: `Glory be to my Lord, the All-Glorious!' (Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, p. 93) -- -- __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511359-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511456-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Syriac and Aramaic Language in the Origianal Quran
The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Syro-Aramaic_Reading_of_the_Koran According to Luxenberg, the Qur'an was not written in classical Arabic but in a mixed Arabic-Syriac language, the traders' language of Mecca and it was based on Christian liturgical texts. When the final text of the Qur'an was codified, those working on it did not understand the original sense and meaning of this hybrid trading language any more, and they forcefully and randomly turned it into classical Arabic. This gave rise to a lot of misinterpretations. Something like this can only have happened if there was a gap in the oral transmission of the Qur'anic text. That idea is in serious disagreement with the views of both traditional Muslims and western scholars of Islam. The work advances the thesis that critical sections of the Qur'an have been misread by generations of readers and Muslim and Western scholars, who consider classical Arabic as the language of the Qur'an. Luxenberg's analysis suggests that the prevalent Syro-Aramic language up to the 7th century formed a stronger etymological basis for its meaning.[4][5] A notable trait of early written Arabic was that it lacked vowel signs and diacritic points which would later distinguish e.g. B, T, N, Y ب ت ن ي (Defective script), and thus was prone to misinterpretation. The diacritical points were added around the turn of the eighth century on orders of Al-Hajjaj bin Yousef, governor of Iraq (694-714). Luxenberg remarks that the Qur'an contains much ambiguous and even inexplicable language. He asserts that even Muslim scholars find some passages difficult to parse and have written reams of Quranic commentary attempting to explain these passages. However, the assumption behind their endeavours has always been, according to him, that any difficult passage is true, meaningful, and pure Arabic, and that it can be deciphered with the tools of traditional Muslim scholarship. Luxenberg accuses Western academic scholars of the Qur'an of taking a timid and imitative approach, relying too heavily on the biased work of Muslim scholars. The book's thesis is that the Qur'an was not originally written exclusively in Arabic but in a mixture with Syriac, the dominant spoken and written language in the Arabian peninsula through the 8th century. “ What is meant by Syro-Aramaic (actually Syriac) is the branch of Aramaic in the Near East originally spoken in Edessa and the surrounding area in Northwest Mesopotamia and predominant as a written language from Christianization to the origin of the Koran. For more than a millennium Aramaic was the lingua franca in the entire Middle Eastern region before being gradually displaced by Arabic beginning in the 7th century.[6] ” Luxenberg argues that scholars must start afresh, ignore the old Islamic commentaries, and use only the latest in linguistic and historical methods. Hence, if a particular Quranic word or phrase seems meaningless in Arabic, or can be given meaning only by tortured conjectures, it makes sense - he argues - to look to the Aramaic and Syriac languages as well as Arabic. Luxenberg also argues that the Qur'an is based on earlier texts, namely Syriac lectionaries used in the Christian churches of Syria, and that it was the work of several generations who adapted these texts into the Qur'an we know today. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511457-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Stephen, The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and Messengership. Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would not have ended, and the Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started. Furthermore, Baha'is accept the Shi'i interpretation of Islam and acknowledge the authority of Imams. So, even if it is a later interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong interpretation. Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is supposed to be distinguished from previous prophets. Just because Einstein was smartest, just because Michael Jordan is most athletic, just because Mother Teresa is kindest, etc. etc. doesn't mean mankind is not one. The oneness of mankind doesn't have anything to do with any of that stuff. A blind man is equal to a seeing man. A deaf man is equal to a hearing man. A child and an adult are one. The same principle holds for God's Appearances/Manifestations/Prophets/Messengers/etc. School Analogy: Just because a 12th grade teacher tells students in the 12th grade *many more things* than a 1st grade teacher tells the 1st graders, does not mean that they are all teachers. AND, EVEN If another teacher was the one who wrote the text books for both 1st and 12th grade, and was the one who trained both the 1st and 12th grade teachers, this does not mean that this teacher of teachers is somehow different from other teachers and somehow not a human being. They are still all human beings. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511458-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv The Bible does have the prophecy of the Seven Seals. Even if somethings is sealed, there is always the possiblity of someone breaking the seal. The Baha'i Studies Listserv Stephen, The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and Messengership. Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would not have ended, and the Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started. Furthermore, Baha'is accept the Shi'i interpretation of Islam and acknowledge the authority of Imams. So, even if it is a later interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong interpretation. Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is supposed to be distinguished from previous prophets. Just because Einstein was smartest, just because Michael Jordan is most athletic, just because Mother Teresa is kindest, etc. etc. doesn't mean mankind is not one. The oneness of mankind doesn't have anything to do with any of that stuff. A blind man is equal to a seeing man. A deaf man is equal to a hearing man. A child and an adult are one. The same principle holds for God's Appearances/Manifestations/Prophets/Messengers/etc. School Analogy: Just because a 12th grade teacher tells students in the 12th grade *many more things* than a 1st grade teacher tells the 1st graders, does not mean that they are all teachers. AND, EVEN If another teacher was the one who wrote the text books for both 1st and 12th grade, and was the one who trained both the 1st and 12th grade teachers, this does not mean that this teacher of teachers is somehow different from other teachers and somehow not a human being. They are still all human beings. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511458-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511459-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Fabricated Hadith
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I know there are lot of Hadith that people quote. There are Hadith of varying authenticites. I found a link that list 100 fabricated Hadith. http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/books/100FabricatedHadith.pdf __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511461-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Hajir: The Baha'i acceptance, if you will, of Shi`ah is quite nuanced and sophisticated. As you very well know, Baha'i Writings do not accept all of Shi`ism in toto, wholesale. For example, Baha'is do not believe that the promised One, the promised Mahdi, is the physical son of Hasan al-`askari alive physically in a well in Samarra, etc. Baha'is, as Sunnis, believe that the Promised Mahdi would be born, just as The Bab was born. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com Sender: bounce-511458-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:36:13 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets The Baha'i Studies Listserv Stephen, The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and Messengership. Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would not have ended, and the Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started. Furthermore, Baha'is accept the Shi'i interpretation of Islam and acknowledge the authority of Imams. So, even if it is a later interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong interpretation. Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is supposed to be distinguished from previous prophets. Just because Einstein was smartest, just because Michael Jordan is most athletic, just because Mother Teresa is kindest, etc. etc. doesn't mean mankind is not one. The oneness of mankind doesn't have anything to do with any of that stuff. A blind man is equal to a seeing man. A deaf man is equal to a hearing man. A child and an adult are one. The same principle holds for God's Appearances/Manifestations/Prophets/Messengers/etc. School Analogy: Just because a 12th grade teacher tells students in the 12th grade *many more things* than a 1st grade teacher tells the 1st graders, does not mean that they are all teachers. AND, EVEN If another teacher was the one who wrote the text books for both 1st and 12th grade, and was the one who trained both the 1st and 12th grade teachers, this does not mean that this teacher of teachers is somehow different from other teachers and somehow not a human being. They are still all human beings. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511458-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Iskandar, Would you say Bahais accept the Shaykhi view rather than the Shiah view? Sent by iPhone On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:35 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Hajir: The Baha'i acceptance, if you will, of Shi`ah is quite nuanced and sophisticated. As you very well know, Baha'i Writings do not accept all of Shi`ism in toto, wholesale. For example, Baha'is do not believe that the promised One, the promised Mahdi, is the physical son of Hasan al-`askari alive physically in a well in Samarra, etc. Baha'is, as Sunnis, believe that the Promised Mahdi would be born, just as The Bab was born. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® From: haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com Sender: bounce-511458-2080...@list.jccc.edu Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:36:13 -0700 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu ReplyTo: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets The Baha'i Studies Listserv Stephen, The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and Messengership. Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would not have ended, and the Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started. Furthermore, Baha'is accept the Shi'i interpretation of Islam and acknowledge the authority of Imams. So, even if it is a later interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong interpretation. Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is supposed to be distinguished from previous prophets. Just because Einstein was smartest, just because Michael Jordan is most athletic, just because Mother Teresa is kindest, etc. etc. doesn't mean mankind is not one. The oneness of mankind doesn't have anything to do with any of that stuff. A blind man is equal to a seeing man. A deaf man is equal to a hearing man. A child and an adult are one. The same principle holds for God's Appearances/Manifestations/Prophets/Messengers/etc. School Analogy: Just because a 12th grade teacher tells students in the 12th grade *many more things* than a 1st grade teacher tells the 1st graders, does not mean that they are all teachers. AND, EVEN If another teacher was the one who wrote the text books for both 1st and 12th grade, and was the one who trained both the 1st and 12th grade teachers, this does not mean that this teacher of teachers is somehow different from other teachers and somehow not a human being. They are still all human beings. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511458-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511483-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi, I think I can answer that myself. The Shaykhis didn't all accept the Bab either, so their view is also partly incorrect. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511486-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Then, there are no definitive interpretations? The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Iskandar, Would you say Bahais accept the Shaykhi view rather than the Shiah view? Sent by iPhone On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:35 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Hajir: The Baha'i acceptance, if you will, of Shi`ah is quite nuanced and sophisticated. As you very well know, Baha'i Writings do not accept all of Shi`ism in toto, wholesale. For example, Baha'is do not believe that the promised One, the promised Mahdi, is the physical son of Hasan al-`askari alive physically in a well in Samarra, etc. Baha'is, as Sunnis, believe that the Promised Mahdi would be born, just as The Bab was born. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® From: haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com Sender: bounce-511458-2080...@list.jccc.edu Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:36:13 -0700 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu ReplyTo: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets The Baha'i Studies Listserv Stephen, The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and Messengership. Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would not have ended, and the Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started. Furthermore, Baha'is accept the Shi'i interpretation of Islam and acknowledge the authority of Imams. So, even if it is a later interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong interpretation. Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is supposed to be distinguished from previous prophets. Just because Einstein was smartest, just because Michael Jordan is most athletic, just because Mother Teresa is kindest, etc. etc. doesn't mean mankind is not one. The oneness of mankind doesn't have anything to do with any of that stuff. A blind man is equal to a seeing man. A deaf man is equal to a hearing man. A child and an adult are one. The same principle holds for God's Appearances/Manifestations/Prophets/Messengers/etc. School Analogy: Just because a 12th grade teacher tells students in the 12th grade *many more things* than a 1st grade teacher tells the 1st graders, does not mean that they are all teachers. AND, EVEN If another teacher was the one who wrote the text books for both 1st and 12th grade, and was the one who trained both the 1st and 12th grade teachers, this does not mean that this teacher of teachers is somehow different from other teachers and somehow not a human being. They are still all human beings. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511458-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511483-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511489-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe:
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Right, plus there are also other aspects of Shaykhism which the Bab and Baha'u'llah rejected, such as the existence of hurqalya, Jabulqa and Jabulsa, and the notion of a Fourth Support. On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 10:53 AM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi, I think I can answer that myself. The Shaykhis didn't all accept the Bab either, so their view is also partly incorrect. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:adibmasum...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-511486-15803...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens. -- Bahá'u'lláh __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511495-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Then, there are no definitive interpretations? Because something was true in a previous day does not mean God doesnt change what is True His Hands cannot be tied. Shaykhi was true in it's own day, but became false when the Bab appeared. Christianity was true in it's day, but became false when Muhammad appeared. Judaism was true in it's day, but became false when Jesus Christ appeared. Today, We have the Universal House of Justice, which perfectly determines truth and that which is correct in this day. Since Bahaullah is the Supreme Manifestation, the infallibility of the Universal House of Justice is guaranteed. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511496-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm wonder if other Bahais would agree or disagree with that way of putting things. On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 4:56 PM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv the 10 commandments which are said to be written on tablets with God's own finger. Gilberto, As everything else I said, these are only my opinions. I think God did not write the 10 commandments. I think God did not say anything to Muhammad. I think Muhammad was speaking to Himself. I think Moses came up with the 10 commandments himself (if he even existed). Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511388-684...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511501-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv This is the basis of the topic. Can a seal be broken? An example would be the Seven Seals. Can a seal mean God's stamp of approval rather than finality? Can a seal mean authenticity rahter than finality? Can a seal mean finality until the seal is broken? Did you know the term Seal of the Prophets predate Muhammad? Montanus and Mani both used it. Is the term Syriac or Aramaic rather than Arabic in origin? What about people who can communicate with angels like Fatima, Emmanuel Swedenborg, Joseph Smith, etc? Shia Islam recognizes: rasul, nabi, people who can communicate with angels, and ordinary people. If Muhummad was the final prophet, could that be subject to bada? Etc The Baha'i Studies Listserv According to A.C. Welch, Muslim interpretation of khatim an-nabiyyin as the last and greatest of the prophets is most likely based on a later interpretation.[3] Carl Ernst considers this phrase to mean that Muhammad's “imprint on history is as final as a wax seal on a letter”. Wilferd Madelung states that the meaning of this term is not certain. The interpretation of last is based on seal and last being synonyms in Arabic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Syro-Aramaic_Reading_of_the_Koran The passage in Sura 33 that has usually been translated as seal of the prophets means, according to Luxenberg, witness. By this reading, Muhammad is not the last of the prophets, but only a witness to those prophets who came before him. This means that by seal, he was a prophet to pagans, who unless he as a witness to the other prophets before him, the pagans of Arabia would have erroneously believed him to be the only prophet ever. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511455-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511502-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fabricated Hadith
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I know there are lot of Hadith that people quote. There are Hadith of varying authenticites. I What I'm suggesting is that the standard method by which Muslims decide which hadiths are strong and which are weak may no longer be the best method for determining authenticity. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511505-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Gilberto, some would agree others would disagree. These are all personal interpretations. We don't believe in interpretation of texts. Every Bahai comes up with their own personal understanding based on the writings of Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511506-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fabricated Hadith
The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/books/100FabricatedHadith.pdf He lists each Hadith, who categorized it a fabricated, and why it was categorized as such. Sometimes dishonest people were listed in a chain of narrators and it invalidated the hadith. Also, any of the hadiths listed here as fabricated you feel are authentic? The Baha'i Studies Listserv I know there are lot of Hadith that people quote. There are Hadith of varying authenticites. I What I'm suggesting is that the standard method by which Muslims decide which hadiths are strong and which are weak may no longer be the best method for determining authenticity. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511505-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511510-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm wonder if other Bahais would agree or disagree with that way of putting things. I certainly wouldn't put it that way. Baha'is tend to see the Burning Bush, the Dove, the Archangel Gabriel and the Heavenly Maiden (huri) all as symbols of the Holy Spirit which conveys Revelation to the Manifestations. Alternatively we could see it has the Divine Nature of the Manifestation communicating with His human nature. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511515-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fabricated Hadith
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Sometimes dishonest people were listed in a chain of narrators and it invalidated the hadith. That's the usual means for determining a hadith is false. Muslims believe that a hadith is only as strong as its weakest link in the isnad or chain of transmission. Also, any of the hadiths listed here as fabricated you feel are authentic? No, I just feel that a lot of hadiths are regarded as authentic or strong, that are in fact fabricated. Things like anachronisms are not considered in evaluating the authenticity of a hadith. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511516-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Shaykhi was true in it's own day, but became false when the Bab appeared. Christianity was true in it's day, but became false when Muhammad appeared. Judaism was true in it's day, but became false when Jesus Christ appeared. Nonsense. The religion itself doesn't suddenly become untrue. At most it followers might. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511519-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fabricated Hadith
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Sometimes dishonest people were listed in a chain of narrators and it invalidated the hadith. That's the usual means for determining a hadith is false. Muslims believe that a hadith is only as strong as its weakest link in the isnad or chain of transmission. Also, any of the hadiths listed here as fabricated you feel are authentic? No, I just feel that a lot of hadiths are regarded as authentic or strong, that are in fact fabricated. Things like anachronisms are not considered in evaluating the authenticity of a hadith. Some hadith Baha'u'llah wrote commentaries on like He who knows his self knows his lord. It's listed as #93 in the 100 fabricated hadith. Also, several fabricated haidith while not being authentic, are said to have authentic meanings. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511525-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Does the Baha'i faith have a Manifestationology like the Christology of Christians? Dear Stephen, The closest thing we have to do is the description of the Manifestation's station as given by Shoghi Effendi in the World Order of Baha'u'llah. Also, the Iqan would be a good source for this. Is the divine essence of a Manifestation same, simmilar, or different from God? It is not the same as God. We do not believe in incarnation. But since the divine nature perfectly reflects all the name and attributes of God it would perhaps not be incorrect to say it is all we can know about God humanly speaking. If same, are the two natures the same individual or two distinct individuals? They are in the same individual. If same, are the human aspects and divine aspects distinct or combined? I would say they are inextricably intertwined but that may be my Christian influence. ;-} Symbolically they are often depicted as separate. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511526-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv . Alternatively we could see it has the Dpivine Nature of the Manifestation communicating with His human nature. I really think the religion does that. I think this is so because God changes things over time because we are changing. I cannot put on my 6th grade clothes now because they don't fit me anymore. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511527-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv The Baha'i Studies Listserv Does the Baha'i faith have a Manifestationology like the Christology of Christians? Dear Stephen, The closest thing we have to do is the description of the Manifestation's station as given by Shoghi Effendi in the World Order of Baha'u'llah. Also, the Iqan would be a good source for this. Is the divine essence of a Manifestation same, simmilar, or different from God? It is not the same as God. We do not believe in incarnation. But since the divine nature perfectly reflects all the name and attributes of God it would perhaps not be incorrect to say it is all we can know about God humanly speaking. If same, are the two natures the same individual or two distinct individuals? They are in the same individual. If same, are the human aspects and divine aspects distinct or combined? I would say they are inextricably intertwined but that may be my Christian influence. ;-} Symbolically they are often depicted as separate. Christian influence? Yes, alot of Christians believe Chalcedonianism = Christianity. The Church of the East, Assyrian Orthodox Church, and Oriental Orthodox are'nt included then. There are also various non-trinitarian Christian sects. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511529-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Alternatively we could see it as the Divine Nature of the Manifestation communicating with His human nature. Dear Susan, reading this over again, I think I disagree with this personally. I think their human nature IS divine, rather than their human nature communicates with their Divine. Kind of like the movie Matrix or like a video game. All the characters in the video game are computer generated. But one of those computer generated figures is actually controlled by me. So when a new Manifestation appears, the newest video game character is controlled by me, not the old ones. I can only control one character at a time. Otherwise, I would be fighting against myself in the game. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511532-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Susan, reading this over again, I think I disagree with this personally. I think their human nature IS divine, rather than their human nature communicates with their Divine. My statements regarding the distinction between the human and divine nature of the Manifestation is based on the following: These Manifestations of God have each a twofold 51 station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers. For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of prophethood, and are honored with the mantle of glory. Thus hath Muhammad, the Point of the Qur'án, revealed: I am all the Prophets. Likewise, He saith: I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus. Similar statements have been made by Imam Ali. Sayings such as these, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God's immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of Divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the Scriptures. These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the Day Springs of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: Our Cause is but One. Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same. Likewise, the Imams of the Muhammadan Faith, those lamps of certitude, have said: Muhammad is our first, Muhammad is our last, Muhammad our all. 52 It is clear and evident to thee that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold Them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of Being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendor! Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: I am the return of all the Prophets, He, verily, speaketh the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return of the former Revelation is a fact, the truth of which is firmly established The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit. 53 It is because of this difference in their station and mission that the words and utterances flowing from these Well Springs of Divine knowledge appear to diverge and differ. Otherwise, in the eyes of them that are initiated into the mysteries of Divine wisdom, all their utterances are, in reality, but the expressions of one Truth. As most of the people have failed to appreciate those stations to which We have referred, they, therefore, feel perplexed and dismayed at the varying utterances pronounced by Manifestations that are essentially one and the same. It hath ever been evident that all these divergencies of utterance are attributable to differences of station. Thus, viewed from the standpoint of their oneness and sublime detachment, the attributes of Godhead, Divinity, Supreme Singleness, and Inmost Essence, have been, and are applicable to those Essences of Being, inasmuch as they all abide on the throne of Divine Revelation, and are established upon the seat of Divine Concealment. Through their appearance the Revelation of God is made manifest, and by their countenance the Beauty of God is revealed. Thus it is that the accents of God Himself have been heard uttered by these Manifestations of the Divine Being. Viewed in the light of their second station -- the station of distinction, differentiation, temporal limitations, characteristics and standards -- they manifest absolute servitude, utter destitution, and complete 54 self-effacement. Even as He saith: I am the servant of God. I am but a man like you... (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 50) Kind of like the movie Matrix or like a video game. All the characters in the video game are computer
Re: Honest observation: Susan Gilberto
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm not sure about superstition but I would say that since some of the topics have been rehashed over and over again, conversation isn't about sharing new information or communicating much of the time. On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 8:03 AM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Susan and Gilberto, My honest observation is that you are not genuine in your messages. I think you are going around and around in circles of superstition. What I mean by this is that you are: 1. Assuming that an unknown exists and that the unknown is measureable. 2. You are both mixin religion and science. These two are in harmony, but they cannot be mixed. Sent by iPhone On Jun 28, 2010, at 7:41 AM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Khazeh, In your last message, you pretty much demonstrated that all Manifestations are equal. If so, then why does Bahaullah in the Iqan include the tradition that the Bab revealed all remaining letters of knowledge? This implies that the Bab revealed *a lot* of knowledge not revealed by Muhammad. Therefore, God cannot be equally accessed through Muhammad as He is through the Bab. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:haj...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511418-1520...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511420-684...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511546-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Similar statements have been made by Imam Ali. I think this is a very important statement by Bahaullah. Ali is not a Manifestation, yet He is said to be one with them. This to me disqualifies your explanation that all religions are equally true. In one breath you are showing me verses about God, and then you try to qualify God by saying that God is accessible through all religions simultaneously. God cannot be described, and all descriptions of God are really about the Manifestations. God is irrelevant, we can't know him anyway. He doesn't exist for us. So all we have are the creations of the latest Manifestation. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511548-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan, To me, the oneness of religion means that all religions foretold the coming of Baha'u'llah. Through all revealed religions, one can come to know about Baha'u'llah. God is an unknowable. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511550-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Honest observation: Susan Gilberto
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm not sure about superstition but I would say that since some of the topics have been rehashed over and over again When I say superstition, I mean that we have constructed an image of God in our mind, and have believed that that image is really God, when it is only our own imagination. Religion is about the Manifestations, not about God. God is unknowable. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511552-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv is now regarded as a heretic and blasphemer or apostate or something like that by the hard line clerics for putting forth similar thoughts about the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad now Iskandar, How do you mean? How does he characterize the Quran and Muhammad? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511556-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Basically, he questions the traditional Muslim understanding of wahy Revelation and puts forward his reading that the Quran is a product of wahy as expressed and articulated through the mind of the Prophet and His times, culture, language, etc. In other words, the Prophet Muhammad was not just a mailman passively carrying what Gabriel told Him like a stenographer. He had input in the whole process, if I understand Soroosh correctly. He has publicly professed anti-Baha'i feelings; but I saw about a year or two ago that he was accused of being a Baha'i and a heretic by one of the hard line conservative traditionalist Ayatollahs! He is familiar with Baha'i Writings, since his early youth. If I remember correctly, he belonged to the strongly anti-Baha'i group, the Hujjatiyyih group as young man and as a youth. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com Sender: bounce-511556-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 12:39:35 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Respect for Islam The Baha'i Studies Listserv is now regarded as a heretic and blasphemer or apostate or something like that by the hard line clerics for putting forth similar thoughts about the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad now Iskandar, How do you mean? How does he characterize the Quran and Muhammad? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511556-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Isn't this actually what happened? People don't really believe in Ghosts, do they? From: iskandar@gmail.com iskandar@gmail.com To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 4:00:29 PM Subject: Re: Respect for Islam The Baha'i Studies Listserv Basically, he questions the traditional Muslim understanding of wahy Revelation and puts forward his reading that the Quran is a product of wahy as expressed and articulated through the mind of the Prophet and His times, culture, language, etc. In other words, the Prophet Muhammad was not just a mailman passively carrying what Gabriel told Him like a stenographer. He had input in the whole process, if I understand Soroosh correctly. He has publicly professed anti-Baha'i feelings; but I saw about a year or two ago that he was accused of being a Baha'i and a heretic by one of the hard line conservative traditionalist Ayatollahs! He is familiar with Baha'i Writings, since his early youth. If I remember correctly, he belonged to the strongly anti-Baha'i group, the Hujjatiyyih group as young man and as a youth. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® From: haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com Sender: bounce-511556-2080...@list.jccc.edu Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 12:39:35 -0700 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu ReplyTo: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Respect for Islam The Baha'i Studies Listserv is now regarded as a heretic and blasphemer or apostate or something like that by the hard line clerics for putting forth similar thoughts about the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad now Iskandar, How do you mean? How does he characterize the Quran and Muhammad? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511556-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511568-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Well, what shall I say? Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com Sender: bounce-511568-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 13:09:48 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Respect for Islam The Baha'i Studies Listserv Isn't this actually what happened? People don't really believe in Ghosts, do they? From: iskandar@gmail.com iskandar@gmail.com To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 4:00:29 PM Subject: Re: Respect for Islam The Baha'i Studies Listserv Basically, he questions the traditional Muslim understanding of wahy Revelation and puts forward his reading that the Quran is a product of wahy as expressed and articulated through the mind of the Prophet and His times, culture, language, etc. In other words, the Prophet Muhammad was not just a mailman passively carrying what Gabriel told Him like a stenographer. He had input in the whole process, if I understand Soroosh correctly. He has publicly professed anti-Baha'i feelings; but I saw about a year or two ago that he was accused of being a Baha'i and a heretic by one of the hard line conservative traditionalist Ayatollahs! He is familiar with Baha'i Writings, since his early youth. If I remember correctly, he belonged to the strongly anti-Baha'i group, the Hujjatiyyih group as young man and as a youth. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® From: haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com Sender: bounce-511556-2080...@list.jccc.edu Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 12:39:35 -0700 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu ReplyTo: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Respect for Islam The Baha'i Studies Listserv is now regarded as a heretic and blasphemer or apostate or something like that by the hard line clerics for putting forth similar thoughts about the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad now Iskandar, How do you mean? How does he characterize the Quran and Muhammad? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511556-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511568-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv So, that means the Ayatollahs of Iran do believe that Muhammad was just a divine mailman? That's the image people get when they hear the word messenger. His teaching conflicted with the hardline conservative party line. Who could blame them as he threatened the whole objectivity of revelation? The Baha'i Studies Listserv Well, what shall I say? Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® From: haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com Sender: bounce-511568-2080...@list.jccc.edu Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 13:09:48 -0700 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu ReplyTo: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Respect for Islam The Baha'i Studies Listserv Isn't this actually what happened? People don't really believe in Ghosts, do they? From: iskandar@gmail.com iskandar@gmail.com To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 4:00:29 PM Subject: Re: Respect for Islam The Baha'i Studies Listserv Basically, he questions the traditional Muslim understanding of wahy Revelation and puts forward his reading that the Quran is a product of wahy as expressed and articulated through the mind of the Prophet and His times, culture, language, etc. In other words, the Prophet Muhammad was not just a mailman passively carrying what Gabriel told Him like a stenographer. He had input in the whole process, if I understand Soroosh correctly. He has publicly professed anti-Baha'i feelings; but I saw about a year or two ago that he was accused of being a Baha'i and a heretic by one of the hard line conservative traditionalist Ayatollahs! He is familiar with Baha'i Writings, since his early youth. If I remember correctly, he belonged to the strongly anti-Baha'i group, the Hujjatiyyih group as young man and as a youth. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® From: haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com Sender: bounce-511556-2080...@list.jccc.edu Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 12:39:35 -0700 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu ReplyTo: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Respect for Islam The Baha'i Studies Listserv is now regarded as a heretic and blasphemer or apostate or something like that by the hard line clerics for putting forth similar thoughts about the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad now Iskandar, How do you mean? How does he characterize the Quran and Muhammad? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511556-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511568-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:53 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv As I said, I was trying to wrap up and I am reluctant to make detailed comments about the following. It looks like Matt Haase understood at least some of the points I made. I actually agree with what Matt said about finding common ground. That's why the whole dynamic of this thread seems so bizarre to me. To just go back to the original topic... both Islam and the Bahai faith require a kind of ablution or washing before the required prayers. Both Islam and the Bahai faith include instructions to pray in clean clothes and on a clean surface. Both Islam and the Bahai faith have suggestions to use perfume and scent in this context as well. Both Islam and the Bahai faith have slightly different rules regarding menstruating women and prayer. So it seems to me pretty obvious that both Islam and the Bahai faith have a similar (not identical but similar) approach to prayer and cleanliness. But when I point this out it feels like folks are going to great lengths to deny this. So instead of saying Yes, look at all this wonderful common ground it feels like you want to emphasize the differences (which I would guess in your mind would make the Bahai faith better). I think it was similarly weird when Susan was recently trying maintain and emphasize the distinction between Bahai and Muslim ways of understanding the Bible. However, I find Gilberto's comment about the Baha'i understanding of the issue of finality (Seal of the Prophets, etc.) and his reference to Baha'i metaphysical obfuscation very unhelpful and insulting. No insult was intended. He owes an apology to the Baha'is on this list. The concept is very lucid, coherent, rational, in full agreement with the general theme and thrust of all religions and Sacred Scriptures, and there is no obfuscation. I wouldn't claim to generalize about what all religions say. But at the very least, it is obvious that the Bahai understanding of Seal of the Prophets is in disagreement with the Muslim understanding. And from myside, part of why the Bahai view might seem confusing is that Bahais don't all talk about it in the same way. In this very thread there are examples of Bahais arguing that 1) Seal simply does not mean last. 2) Seal does mean last and so Muhammad (saaws) was the last MAnifestionation in the Cycle of Prophethood but then they would say that the Bab was the first Manifestation in the cycle of fulfillment. 3) While other Bahais use prophet/messenger and manifestation almost interchangeably. especially in the light of 4) How the Writings suggest that all the MAnifestations partake in the station of Seal of the Prophets. For me as a Baha'i, the idea that at some point in time (e.g., in 632) God decided to go into permanent retirement and leave humanity to its own devices forever, with-holding His grace and bounty forever, is unacceptable and far from His loving kindness, justice, and mercy. And as I'm sure we've discussed before, even Muslims who insist that no more prophets and messengers are coming are still perfectly willing to accept the continuing appearance of imams, mujaddids, mujtahids, qutbs, awliya and even manifestations (insan al-kamil) who continue to receive and share guidance from Allah even in the form of kashf and ilham. And the point about insan-al-kamil is actually important because I know Sunni Muslims who say that such people are alive today (perfectly polished souls who reflect the Attributes of Allah). In other words Muslims who are open to the idea that such manifestations are alive in the world today but the Bahais due to literal interpretations and clouds in the writings would treat such a person like a lying impostor. All I really mean to say is that you are overstating the Muslim position on this point. In any case, I have been thinking of resending my request to leave the list. I certainly don't feel welcome. I think we've said what has been on our minds. I don't see your views or my views growing or changing much. So I should focus my time on other pursuits. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511576-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv statements have been made by Imam Ali. I think this is a very important statement by Bahaullah. Ali is not a Manifestation, yet He is said to be one with them. One of the things that is a bit confusing about the Iqan is the that the term Manifestation is used in the Shi'ite not the later Baha'i interpretation of the term. Shi'ites consider the Imams to be Manifestations. Baha'u'llah very explicitly refers to the Imam Husayn as a Manifestation in the Iqan. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511577-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Basically, he questions the traditional Muslim understanding of wahy Revelation and puts forward his reading that the Quran is a product of wahy as expressed and articulated through the mind of the Prophet and His times, culture, language, etc. In other words, the Prophet Muhammad was not just a mailman passively carrying what Gabriel told Him like a stenographer. He had input in the whole process, Fazlur Rahman takes the same position in his book *Islam.* He holds that for the Qur'an to be the Word of God the Prophet Himself must be the Word of God. It seems to me that fill a gap between Christianity and Islam in regards to the meaning of the Word of God. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511578-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Who could blame them as he threatened the whole objectivity of revelation? Dear Stephen, If one understands that the Manifestation Himself is the Word of God in the *primary* sense (a la John's Gospel) then I don't think the objectivity of revelation is threatened at all. The ultimate revelation of God is a Person, not what's on a piece of paper. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511579-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv the Manifestation Himself is the Word of God in the *primary* sense (a la John's Gospel) Susan, I don't think that's what's being argued. At least that is not what I have in mind. I think it is stating that the Word of God is only the words of Muhammad, nothing more. Not that the Manifestation IS the Word. That which is written down in the Qur'an is Muhammad's word. Look at Baha'u'llah's writings. It is full of His Own Words. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511584-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think it is stating that the Word of God is only the words of Muhammad, nothing more. Not that the Manifestation IS the Word. That which is written down in the Qur'an is Muhammad's word. Look at Baha'u'llah's writings. It is full of His Own Words. Remember, the Baha'i writings reject incarnationism. Therefore, we have to eliminate God from the equation. God is a superstition anyway. Are you aware that the Bab and Baha'u'llah made Arabic grammar mistakes? How can you possibly believe someone who's is supposed to be the Appearance of the One Who Sent the Qur'an to Muhammad, but can't figure out Arabic grammar? But I know that He is true. How can that be? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511585-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fabricated Hadith
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Some hadith Baha'u'llah wrote commentaries on like He who knows his self knows his lord. It's listed as #93 in the 100 fabricated hadith. Also, several fabricated haidith while not being authentic, are said to have authentic meanings. I probably should have looked at that link more closely. It looks like it is a long Sunni tirade against Shi'ite hadiths. Most of them are being discounted not because of the weakness of the isnad but because they don't like the theology. This is really nasty, virulent stuff. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511586-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think it is stating that the Word of God is only the words of Muhammad, nothing more. Not that the Manifestation IS the Word. That which is written down in the Qur'an is Muhammad's word. Look at Baha'u'llah's writings. It is full of His Own Words. John's Gospel, the Qur'an both assert that Jesus is the Word of God. The Long Obligatory Prayer describes the Manifestation as He through whom the words B and E (lit. Kaf and Nun) have been joined and knit together.What is this other than the Creative Word by which God brings all else into existence. I'm sure Khazeh can share with us more on this. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511592-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv As I understand, from a literary perspective, these are real mistakes. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511594-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv John's Gospel, the Qur'an both assert that Jesus is the Word of God. The Long Obligatory Prayer describes the Manifestation as He through whom the words B and E (lit. Kaf and Nun) have been joined and knit together.What is this other than the Creative Word by which God brings all else into existence. Of course. The Manifestation creates a new religion. That's all. From a scientific perspective, its not more mysterious than that. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511596-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Are you aware that the Bab and Baha'u'llah made Arabic grammar mistakes? How can you possibly believe someone who's is supposed to be the Appearance of the One Who Sent the Qur'an to Muhammad, but can't figure out Arabic grammar? The Bab Himself explained this. The Word of God can never be subject to the limitations of His creatures. Nay, the rules and canons which men have adopted have been deduced from the text of the Word of God and are based upon it. These men have, in the very texts of that holy Book, discovered no less than three hundred instances of grammatical error, such as the one you now criticise. Inasmuch as it was the Word of God, they had no other alternative except to resign themselves to His will.' (The Dawn-Breakers, p. 317) But I know that He is true. How can that be? I don't know what you believe. I know what I believe and why I believe it and it has nothing to do with grammar. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511597-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Vernacular language and literary language are two differnet things. If you are too literary common people won't understand you. They were trying to write so that they could be understood and not so they could get an imaginary A+ for perfectly pure standard language. The Baha'i Studies Listserv As I understand, from a literary perspective, these are real mistakes. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511594-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511598-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fabricated Hadith
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear all, Just please let's all remember that they will never be one proof that one prophet, Abraham, Jesus, Mohamad, the Bab or every other, has given us one single word coming from God. Based on this, theology looks like a so little human discussion... Let's believe and try to make our best to make the world better. And that's all folks! (music! :-) Loïc Susan Maneck a écrit : The Baha'i Studies Listserv Some hadith Baha'u'llah wrote commentaries on like He who knows his self knows his lord. It's listed as #93 in the 100 fabricated hadith. Also, several fabricated haidith while not being authentic, are said to have authentic meanings. I probably should have looked at that link more closely. It looks like it is a long Sunni tirade against Shi'ite hadiths. Most of them are being discounted not because of the weakness of the isnad but because they don't like the theology. This is really nasty, virulent stuff. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:l...@free.fr Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511586-5368...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511599-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Of course. The Manifestation creates a new religion. That's all. From a scientific perspective, its not more mysterious than that. And you know this how? That's not how Abdu'l-Baha explains it: The second sort of preexistence is the preexistence of time, and that has no beginning. The Word of God is sanctified from time.[1] The past, the present, the future, all, in relation to God, are equal. Yesterday, today, tomorrow do not exist in the sun. [1 I.e., the Reality of Christ.] In the same way there is a priority with regard to glory -- that is to say, the most glorious precedes the glorious. Therefore, the Reality of Christ, Who is the Word of God, with regard to essence, attributes and glory, certainly precedes the creatures. Before appearing in the human form, the Word of God was in the utmost sanctity 117 and glory, existing in perfect beauty and splendor in the height of its magnificence. When through the wisdom of God the Most High it shone from the heights of glory in the world of the body, the Word of God, through this body, became oppressed, so that it fell into the hands of the Jews, and became the captive of the tyrannical and ignorant, and at last was crucified. That is why He addressed God, saying: Free Me from the bonds of the world of the body, and liberate Me from this cage, so that I may ascend to the heights of honor and glory, and attain unto the former grandeur and might which existed before the bodily world, that I may rejoice in the eternal world and may ascend to the original abode, the placeless world, the invisible kingdom. (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 116) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511601-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Honest observation: Susan Gilberto
The Baha'i Studies Listserv My honest observation is that you are not genuine in your messages. Not genuine, huh? And who put you in the position to judge our sincerity? I think you are going around and around in circles of superstition. You can think what you like but such insults aren't likely to make people listen. 1. Assuming that an unknown exists and that the unknown is measureable. First off God doesn't 'exist' in the same sense things 'exist.' Essence and existence are two different things. And I certainly don't think God is measurable. 2. You are both mixin religion and science. These two are in harmony, but they cannot be mixed. I've not said a word about science. I don't know what you are talking about. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511602-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Honest observation: Susan Gilberto
The Baha'i Studies Listserv An incidentally for someone who was insisting that we shouldn't argue you sure know how to start a fight! On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 7:03 AM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Susan and Gilberto, My honest observation is that you are not genuine in your messages. I think you are going around and around in circles of superstition. What I mean by this is that you are: 1. Assuming that an unknown exists and that the unknown is measureable. 2. You are both mixin religion and science. These two are in harmony, but they cannot be mixed. Sent by iPhone On Jun 28, 2010, at 7:41 AM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Khazeh, In your last message, you pretty much demonstrated that all Manifestations are equal. If so, then why does Bahaullah in the Iqan include the tradition that the Bab revealed all remaining letters of knowledge? This implies that the Bab revealed *a lot* of knowledge not revealed by Muhammad. Therefore, God cannot be equally accessed through Muhammad as He is through the Bab. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:haj...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511418-1520...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:sman...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511420-7387...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511603-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Honest observation: Susan Gilberto
The Baha'i Studies Listserv When I say superstition, I mean that we have constructed an image of God in our mind, and have believed that that image is really God, when it is only our own imagination. It is all in your imagination that I've done that. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511604-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I cannot put on my 6th grade clothes now because they don't fit me anymore. That doesn't make your clothes untrue. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511605-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv How is this nonsense? Religion is a manmade community. All Christians should have accepted Muhammad and all Jews Jesus. The true Jewish community is Christianity, the true Christian community is Islam, etc. There is no essential Judaism, Christianity or Islam, but religion is not simply a manmade community. It is the bind which creates relationship with God and one another in community. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511607-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fabricated Hadith
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I only skimmed through some of them. Now, that I looked closer I do see the author is Sunni in his praise of Abu Bakr and Umar. Also, he ommitted Uthman from his praise despite him also being a Caliph. He's Sunni, but he doesn't feel comfortable for some reason when it comes to Uthman. Why? Also, he doubts any Hadith than can have origins in Judaism, Christianity, Sufism, etc. The probable reason is that it is because of 'Uthman's nepotism that the 'Umayyads were able to come to power, and Sunnis don't like the 'Umayyads anymore than Shi'ites do. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511608-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fabricated Hadith
The Baha'i Studies Listserv The Baha'i Studies Listserv I only skimmed through some of them. Now, that I looked closer I do see the author is Sunni in his praise of Abu Bakr and Umar. Also, he ommitted Uthman from his praise despite him also being a Caliph. He's Sunni, but he doesn't feel comfortable for some reason when it comes to Uthman. Why? Also, he doubts any Hadith than can have origins in Judaism, Christianity, Sufism, etc. The probable reason is that it is because of 'Uthman's nepotism that the 'Umayyads were able to come to power, and Sunnis don't like the 'Umayyads anymore than Shi'ites do. If that's the case, why do Sunnis sometimes call Umar II (an Ummayad Caliph) to be the fifth Caliph? Not literally fifth, but Abu Bakr, Umar I, Uthman, Ali, skip a dozen or so, Umar II http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Caliphate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatimid_Caliphate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Caliphate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_caliphs Umar II is listed a caliph 8 of the Ummayads and 12 in all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthman_ibn_Affan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar_ibn_AbdulAziz Umar II or Umar ibn Abdul Aziz (sometimes considered, honorifically as the fifth of the Rashidun) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511611-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fabricated Hadith
The Baha'i Studies Listserv If that's the case, why do Sunnis sometimes call Umar II (an Ummayad Caliph) to be the fifth Caliph? Umar II was probably the only Umayyad Caliph who was truly pious even to the point of being a bit fanatical. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511612-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Unsubscribe
The Baha'i Studies Listserv The directions for unsubscribing are that the bottom of every post. On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 4:24 PM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Unsubscribe please __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:sman...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511609-7387...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511614-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Syriac and Aramaic Language in the Origianal Quran
The Baha'i Studies Listserv According to Luxenberg, the Qur'an was not written in classical Arabic but in a mixed Arabic-Syriac language, Dear Stephen, Someone who claims to be a scholar yet refuses even to identify himself should probably not be taken seriously and I don't know any academic who does. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511622-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think there is some validity to that argument. On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:19 AM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv According to A.C. Welch, Muslim interpretation of khatim an-nabiyyin as the last and greatest of the prophets is most likely based on a later interpretation.[3] Carl Ernst considers this phrase to mean that Muhammad's “imprint on history is as final as a wax seal on a letter”. Wilferd Madelung states that the meaning of this term is not certain. The interpretation of last is based on seal and last being synonyms in Arabic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Syro-Aramaic_Reading_of_the_Koran The passage in Sura 33 that has usually been translated as seal of the prophets means, according to Luxenberg, witness. By this reading, Muhammad is not the last of the prophets, but only a witness to those prophets who came before him. This means that by seal, he was a prophet to pagans, who unless he as a witness to the other prophets before him, the pagans of Arabia would have erroneously believed him to be the only prophet ever. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:sman...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511455-7387...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511623-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Can a seal mean God's stamp of approval rather than finality? Can a seal mean authenticity rahter than finality? Can a seal mean finality until the seal is broken? Did you know the term Seal of the Prophets predate Muhammad? Montanus and Mani both used it. Yes to all of the above. Is the term Syriac or Aramaic rather than Arabic in origin? Much more questionable. What about people who can communicate with angels like Fatima, Emmanuel Swedenborg, Joseph Smith, etc? Shia Islam recognizes: rasul, nabi, people who can communicate with angels, and ordinary people. My understanding is that Sunni Muslims like al-Ghazali could accept the inspirations of saints, like the Sufis but did not think these inspirations carried authority. If Muhummad was the final prophet, could that be subject to bada? That is an exclusively Shi'ite doctrine which Sunnis would not accept. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511624-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
: The Seal of the Prophets interesting (I believe two new finds)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv f urther developments of the Seal of the Prophets Dr Iskandar Hai MD wrote: iskandar@gmail.com For me as a Baha'i, the idea that at some point in time (e.g., in 632) God decided to go into permanent retirement and leave humanity to its own devices forever, with-holding His grace and bounty forever, is unacceptable and far from His loving kindness, justice, and mercy. Best regards, Iskandar Dearest Iskandar, Gilberto, Matt, and others. i am grateful to Gilberto for his initial stimulus but i agree with Iskandar re the Garace, Bounty, effusions of God. please (number One) confirming this Iskandar sentiment above see this In the process of my research into THE SEAL I came across a very precious H.adith uttered by the Imam Ja’far S.adiq the 6th Imam. [The Holy Imam Who with His Father Baaqer disclosed more h.adith than all Their ancestors and Offspring]. The Book from which this quotation comes is called Burhaan Burhaan, (=al-Sayyid Hashim al-Bahrani, Kitab al-burhaan fi tafsir al-Qur'an. 4 vols. Tehran, 1375/1955). It is a Book of Tafsir in 4 Volume. The Compiler finished compiling it and passed away in 1107 A.H. [153 years before the Dawn of the 12th Imam as the Holy Personage of the Primal Point. The Imam Ja’far as. S.aadiq [the 6th Imam] was asked : What is the meaning of the Holy Qur’an Verse in Sura Kahf [the Cave] Sura 18:109. Qul law kana albahru midadan likalimati rabbee lanafida albahru qabla an tanfada kalimatu rabbee walaw ji/na bimithlihi madadan Sura 18:109 YUSUFALI: Say: If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the **The Imam was asked: What is the meaning of this verse: The Infallible Imam replied: reference: and attached above Burhan, (=al-Sayyid Hashim al-Bahrani, Kitab al-burhan fi tafsir al-Qur'an. 4 vols. Tehran, 1375/1955). [akhbaraka anna Kalam Allah laysa lahuu aakhirun wa laa ghaayata wa laa yanqat.i’u abadan] In other words ***God here informs thee that the Word of God has no end, no termination, and It shall never cease at all.*** In other words ***God here informs thee that the Word of God has no end, no termination, and It shall never cease at all.*** that comes from the Sacred Utterance of the 6th Imam. and then there is a mos precious find which demonstrates that in a very very early text the U.SUUL E KAAFI SUCCESSIVE Prophets are indicated and referenced in a very subtle but cogent and lucid manner in other words: what this incredibly precious hadith does demonstrate is that the successorship of the Prophet Muh.ammad is confirmed as an entity between His Presence and the Rise of the Succeeding Prophet بين قبض النبي إلى خروج النبي الآخر، if another Prophet was not anticipated it would say that **your welaayat** is forever and that there is no Prophet and thus النبي الآخر would not have meaning then: i.e the rise of the next Prophet. would be rendered ineffective http://www.yasoob.com/books/htm1/m012/10/no1032.html http://www.yasoob.com/books/htm1/m012/10/no1032.html كتاب الكافي الأصول والروضة لثقة الإسلام أبي جعفر محمد بن يعقوب الكليني مع شرح الكافي الجامع للمولى محمد صالح المازندراني المتوفى 1081 ه page 132 ثم أتاه جبرئيل (عليه السلام) فقال: يا محمد إنك قد قضيت نبوتك واستكملت أيامك فاجعل الاسم الأكبر وميراث العلم وآثار علم النبوة عند علي (عليه السلام)، فإني لم أترك الأرض إلا ولي فيها عالم تعرف به طاعتي وتعرف به ولايتي ويكون حجة لمن يولد بين قبض النبي إلى خروج النبي الآخر، Then Gabriel came to Him, saying: O Muhammad, verily Thy prophethood has drawn to an end and your days are complete. Place then the Greatest Name, the heritage of knowledge and the signs of the knowledge of Prophethood with Ali. Indeed, I do not leave the Earth other that with One endowed with learning, through whom obedience to Me can be known, and My guardianship is recognized, and he is My proof for all those who are born between the passing of the Prophet and the rise of the next Prophet. http://www.yasoob.com/books/htm1/m012/10/no1032.html if another Prophet was not to be anticipated. If the consciousness of finality was as acute as it has now encompassed the Islamic world, this earliest of texts would say simply that: **your wilaayat** is forever and that there is no Prophet and thus النبي الآخر would not have meaning then or referent or instantiation. i.e. “the rise of the next Prophet” would be rendered, God forbid, meaningless and jejune of any significance as a result of such an interpretation and such a mindset whereas we can truly see here the operation of the same divine method, and divine sunna. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511632-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe:
Re: Fabricated Hadith
The Baha'i Studies Listserv So how do Sunnis view the Abbasids? They overthrew the Ummayads, but the first Abbasid was known as the Slaughterer? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As-Saffah He is called the blood-letter because he after overthrowing the Umayyads he invited them to a banquet where they were all slaughtered. The Abbasids are generally not seen as oppressive as the Umayyads, but Sunnis would not compare them to the first four Caliphs. They presided over the Golden Age of Islam. Most of the Imams you list as having been martyred are said to have been poisoned, a difficult charge to prove. Shi'ites generally resent the Abbasids they came to power on what appeared to be Shi'ite agenda, yet once they had it they kept the power for themselves rather than turn it over to the rightful Imams. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511633-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Syriac and Aramaic Language in the Origianal Quran
The Baha'i Studies Listserv According to Luxenberg, the Qur'an was not written in classical Arabic but in a mixed Arabic-Syriac language, Dear Stephen, Someone who claims to be a scholar yet refuses even to identify himself should probably not be taken seriously and I don't know any academic who does. warmest, Susan It would be easier if any of use were extensively familair with the Quran and all dialects of Syriac and Aramaic and produced a Syro-Aramaic translation of the Quran. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511635-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam Some Muslims list Zoroaster, Buddha, Socrates, Laozi, Mani, Confucius, Krishna, and Rama as prophets. This obviously means that Seal of the Prophets can't mean last prophet for them. As Mani wasn't the last prophet. From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 4:53:20 PM Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets The Baha'i Studies Listserv Can a seal mean God's stamp of approval rather than finality? Can a seal mean authenticity rahter than finality? Can a seal mean finality until the seal is broken? Did you know the term Seal of the Prophets predate Muhammad? Montanus and Mani both used it. Yes to all of the above. Is the term Syriac or Aramaic rather than Arabic in origin? Much more questionable. What about people who can communicate with angels like Fatima, Emmanuel Swedenborg, Joseph Smith, etc? Shia Islam recognizes: rasul, nabi, people who can communicate with angels, and ordinary people. My understanding is that Sunni Muslims like al-Ghazali could accept the inspirations of saints, like the Sufis but did not think these inspirations carried authority. If Muhummad was the final prophet, could that be subject to bada? That is an exclusively Shi'ite doctrine which Sunnis would not accept. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511624-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511636-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I don't think most Muslims regard Mani as a legitimate prophet. In fact, historically Manicheans (zandiq) were offered no tolerance whatsoever in the Islamic world and even subject to something close to an Inquisition. But you are right he claimed the title of Seal of the Prophets. On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam Some Muslims list Zoroaster, Buddha, Socrates, Laozi, Mani, Confucius, Krishna, and Rama as prophets. This obviously means that Seal of the Prophets can't mean last prophet for them. As Mani wasn't the last prophet. From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 4:53:20 PM Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets The Baha'i Studies Listserv Can a seal mean God's stamp of approval rather than finality? Can a seal mean authenticity rahter than finality? Can a seal mean finality until the seal is broken? Did you know the term Seal of the Prophets predate Muhammad? Montanus and Mani both used it. Yes to all of the above. Is the term Syriac or Aramaic rather than Arabic in origin? Much more questionable. What about people who can communicate with angels like Fatima, Emmanuel Swedenborg, Joseph Smith, etc? Shia Islam recognizes: rasul, nabi, people who can communicate with angels, and ordinary people. My understanding is that Sunni Muslims like al-Ghazali could accept the inspirations of saints, like the Sufis but did not think these inspirations carried authority. If Muhummad was the final prophet, could that be subject to bada? That is an exclusively Shi'ite doctrine which Sunnis would not accept. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511624-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:sman...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511636-7387...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511637-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imamah_(Shi%27a_Twelver_doctrine) That is the article with the section; * Communicating with angels Part of a a series on Aqidah Five Pillars of Islam Shahādah · Ṣalāt Ṣawm · Zakāh · Hajj Sunni Islam Seven articles of belief Tawhīd Prophets / Messengers Holy books · Angels The Last Judgement Predestination · Afterlife Shi'a Twelvers Principles Tawhīd · ‘Adalah Nubuwwah · Imāmah Qiyamah Practices Ṣalāt · Ṣawm · Zakāh Hajj · Khums · Jihad Commanding what is just Forbidding what is evil Tawallā' · Tabarrá Ismaili Seven Pillars Walāyah · Ṭawhid · Ṣalāt Zakāh · Ṣawm · Hajj · Jihad Kharijites Sixth Pillar of Islam v • d • e Some people raise to the rank of communicating with angels. Shi'a honour Fatima Zahra with a nickname implying this, and some honor her with writing a book after conversations with the Angel Gabriel, and the Qur'an also merits the Virgin Mary with having talked to Angels. From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 6:13:55 PM Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets The Baha'i Studies Listserv I don't think most Muslims regard Mani as a legitimate prophet. In fact, historically Manicheans (zandiq) were offered no tolerance whatsoever in the Islamic world and even subject to something close to an Inquisition. But you are right he claimed the title of Seal of the Prophets. On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam Some Muslims list Zoroaster, Buddha, Socrates, Laozi, Mani, Confucius, Krishna, and Rama as prophets. This obviously means that Seal of the Prophets can't mean last prophet for them. As Mani wasn't the last prophet. From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 4:53:20 PM Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets The Baha'i Studies Listserv Can a seal mean God's stamp of approval rather than finality? Can a seal mean authenticity rahter than finality? Can a seal mean finality until the seal is broken? Did you know the term Seal of the Prophets predate Muhammad? Montanus and Mani both used it. Yes to all of the above. Is the term Syriac or Aramaic rather than Arabic in origin? Much more questionable. What about people who can communicate with angels like Fatima, Emmanuel Swedenborg, Joseph Smith, etc? Shia Islam recognizes: rasul, nabi, people who can communicate with angels, and ordinary people. My understanding is that Sunni Muslims like al-Ghazali could accept the inspirations of saints, like the Sufis but did not think these inspirations carried authority. If Muhummad was the final prophet, could that be subject to bada? That is an exclusively Shi'ite doctrine which Sunnis would not accept. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511624-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:sman...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511636-7387...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511637-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Syriac and Aramaic Language in the Origianal Quran
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think he is taken seriously but because of the extreme sensitivity of the issue and the potential threats against his life, he had to use a pseudonym. Armin said that someone found his real name, address, and identity and posted the information on the internet. This field, as you very well know, is very new and recent and a lot of the new research literature is in German. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-511622-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 16:41:26 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Syriac and Aramaic Language in the Origianal Quran The Baha'i Studies Listserv According to Luxenberg, the Qur'an was not written in classical Arabic but in a mixed Arabic-Syriac language, Dear Stephen, Someone who claims to be a scholar yet refuses even to identify himself should probably not be taken seriously and I don't know any academic who does. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511622-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: : The Seal of the Prophets interesting (I believe two new finds)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv and then there is a mos precious find which demonstrates that in a very very early text the U.SUUL E KAAFI SUCCESSIVE Prophets are indicated and referenced in a very subtle but cogent and lucid manner What is the presumed date for this text? Don C -- - - - Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511645-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: : The Seal of the Prophets interesting (I believe two new finds)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I just wanted to suggest alternative ways to read the quote from Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq along with some other passages: 2010/6/28 Khazeh aqu...@dsl.pipex.com: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Sura 18:109 YUSUFALI: Say: If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the **The Imam was asked: What is the meaning of this verse: The Infallible Imam replied: reference: and attached above Burhan, (=al-Sayyid Hashim al-Bahrani, Kitab al-burhan fi tafsir al-Qur'an. 4 vols. Tehran, 1375/1955). [akhbaraka anna Kalam Allah laysa lahuu aakhirun wa laa ghaayata wa laa yanqat.i’u abadan] In other words ***God here informs thee that the Word of God has no end, no termination, and It shall never cease at all.*** In other words ***God here informs thee that the Word of God has no end, no termination, and It shall never cease at all.*** that comes from the Sacred Utterance of the 6th Imam. Yes. But what is the Word of God here? One interpretation would be that it refers to the inexhaustible oceans of meaning which can be extracted from the Quran. A second interpretation which might make more sense is that it refers not to any particular collection of writings but the Creative Word of God. It is a doctrine of some Muslims that every moment God is constantly recreating the world and actively bringing it back into existence. So it could be in this sense that creation never ends. Further in your letter you suggest that there are texts which refer to future prophets coming. First I would wonder about all these references, do you consider these sources authoritative for your own religious life.Do you regard them as true and reliiable? (As I Sunni I would question some of those texts) But your argument also made me wonder about the Bahai texts which suggest that future Guardians would appear. I didn't really know that much about the subject before (and I wouldn't claim to now) but I was surprised a while back in a thead on celebrating the Guardian's birthday. I was surprised at reading the Guardian's response because it seemed clear that even HE expected there to be many more Guardians after him and thought that if there were holidays for each it would be excessive. What would you say to an Orthodox Bahai who used this sort of argument to defend their position? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511646-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam Some Muslims list Zoroaster, Buddha, Socrates, Laozi, Mani, Confucius, Krishna, and Rama as prophets. This obviously means that Seal of the Prophets can't mean last prophet for them. All those figures you name were before the birth of Muhammad (saaws). __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511647-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv If I remember correctly, and Khazeh should correct me if I'm wrong, during the battle of Siffin, the Umayyads resorted to a ruse (when they realized that they would lose the war) by upholding Quran books on their spears at which time `Ali's followers disobeyed Him and did not bring the battle to a victory, even after He had reminded them that *He*, and not a piece of paper, was the Kitab nAAteq (versus Kitab sAAmet), that *He* was the Word of God. Or some similar story. Khazeh should know the details. Best regards, Iskandar On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think it is stating that the Word of God is only the words of Muhammad, nothing more. Not that the Manifestation IS the Word. That which is written down in the Qur'an is Muhammad's word. Look at Baha'u'llah's writings. It is full of His Own Words. John's Gospel, the Qur'an both assert that Jesus is the Word of God. The Long Obligatory Prayer describes the Manifestation as He through whom the words B and E (lit. Kaf and Nun) have been joined and knit together.What is this other than the Creative Word by which God brings all else into existence. I'm sure Khazeh can share with us more on this. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-511592-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511649-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Syriac and Aramaic Language in the Origianal Quran
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think he is taken seriously but because of the extreme sensitivity of the issue and the potential threats against his life, he had to use a pseudonym. Dear Iskandar, Not in academia. You can't use a pseudonym in academia and expect your work to be quoted and used by others. I've heard people suggest that his life would be endangered if he used his real name though as far as I know no one has taken out contracts against Crone and Cohen. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511681-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
