Re: Expandable overview of One Common Faith
Don wrote: How about linking the return to overview to the place that refers to that particular paragraph in the text instead of all the way back to the beginning. Thank you for your interest, and for your suggestion. That will have to wait until I learn more about JavaScript, or until I find someone else to write the script for me. I found a ready-to-use JavaScript and style sheet at http://www.javascripttoolbox.com/ , that converts an html unnumbered list into an expandable tree. Just now I tried setting up a link into the interior of the list, and it didn't work. I might need to add a script for it, and I haven't learned how to do that yet. Jim The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Scholarship and the House of Justice
On 12/3/05, firestorm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
at the risk of being myself, i am going to offer that the issue is not faith in Baha'u'llah, but rather love for Him.faith is blind. love is a deed.Actually, what I have in mind might be something that is called faith in the Book of God, the faith that the apostle Paul is talking about when he says
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God;
not as result of works, so that no one may boast.I agree that love is at the heart of it, too, but I trace lack of love to lack of faith, meaning not faith in a commonly used sense, but one sense of faith as it is used in the Book of God. Then again I might say that I trace lack of faith to lack of knowledge. Not knowledge in a commonly used sense, but one sense of knowledge as it is used in the Book of God
so far as the WT, imho It is the most under-studied and appreciated piece of the corner stone of This Thing of His. i try to remind myself to read it every 3 minths, and end up usually, as a result of one bit of discussion or another, reading it every few weeks.
I'm all for that. it is a personal vain imagining of mine that over the nerxt 16 years +/- issues like this scholarship thing, and attendant smoke and foam on the ocean, will intensify, then clarifylike crystal in time for the centenial anniversary of the Guardianship.
Sounds plausible to me.Jim
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re: Scholarship and the House of Justice
I think that more faith in the Master's Will will also come through more faith in Baha'u'llah. I'm thinking that to promote more faith in the House of Justice, I want to start by learning how to promote more faith in Baha'u'llah. Of course that's been my goal all along, ever since I recognized Baha'u'llah. Now I feel the need all the more urgently, thinking of all the wonderful possibilities waiting to come to life in every field of endeavor, when Baha'is in each field learn to embrace divine guidance, including the guidance from the House of Justice. I'm looking now for practical ideas about what I can do, besides what I've been doing all along, to promote more faith in Baha'u'llah, among Baha'is as well as other people. The first and most obvious one is promoting the training institutes. What else? Jim The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Scholarship and the House of Justice
so step by step i pray that you be confirmed to help people see that in accepting Baha'u'llah and His Faith and Institutions they are being faithful to the One Religion of God. Thank you. That is my hope too. Jim The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Putting One Common Faith into practice
Contents of this post: * Harrowing consequequences of unchecked sectarian hatreds * Responsibility of religious leaders * Need and hope for fundamental change * Responsibility of Baha'is * Need for deep understanding * Responsibility to seek insights in the writings of Baha'u'llah * Purpose of One Common Faith * How to respond to this call * How to promote responses from other Baha'is * Harrowing consequequences of unchecked sectarian hatreds At Ridvn 2002, we addressed an open letter to the worlds religious leaders. Our action arose out of awareness that the disease of sectarian hatreds, if not decisively checked, threatens harrowing consequences that will leave few areas of the world unaffected. * Responsibility of religious leaders Above all, we expressed our conviction that the time has come when religious leadership must face honestly and without further evasion the implications of the truth that God is one and that, beyond all diversity of cultural expression and human interpretation, religion is likewise one. . . . recognition of this reality must operate at the heart of religious discourse, and it was with this in mind that we felt that our letter should be explicit in articulating it. * Need and hope for fundamental change Discussions have turned readily to the need for fundamental change in the way the believing masses of humankind relate to one another . . . We feel hopeful that our initiative may serve as a catalyst opening the way to new understanding of religions purpose. * Responsibility of Baha'is However rapidly or slowly this change occurs, the concern of Bahs must be with their own responsibility in the matter. * Need for deep understanding If they are to respond to the need, Bahs must draw on a deep understanding of the process by which humanitys spiritual life evolves. * Responsibility to seek insights in the writings of Baha'u'llah Bahullhs writings provide insights that can help to elevate discussion of religious issues above sectarian and transient considerations. The responsibility to avail oneself of this spiritual resource is inseparable from the gift of faith itself. * Purpose of One Common Faith Reflection on the challenge has prompted us to commission the commentary that follows. * What can each Baha'i do to respond to this call from the Universal House of Justice, and to promote responses from other Baha'is? I went through it, paragraph by paragraph, looking for ways to put into practice what the House of Justice is saying. I returned again and again to each paragraph that I had trouble following or endorsing, seeking a better understanding, until I found a way to endorse it. Here are some treasures I came up with: 1. I found some wonderful new ideas for my service and development projects in my neighborhood. 2. I found a wonderful new way to look at what's happening in the world and what to do about it. 3. I found wonderful new ways to sympathize with both camps, about what the US government has been doing. 4. I found a wonderful new way to look at some Baha'i social problems, and what to do about them. 5. I found a wonderful new way to look at the growth plans the House of Justice is promoting. * Examples of responses to this call I would like to see a response to this call growing and spreading among Baha'is. Here are some examples of what that might mean: 1. Learning to participate wholeheartedly in the development of core activities and clusters. 2. Learning to include non-members in our community activities. 3. Learning to participate in community service and development in the larger community. 4. Learning to treat people of other religions as equal partners in learning to serve God's Kingdom. 5. Learning to see how all that responds to each person's deepest concerns about what's happening in the world. * Strategies for promoting responses For now, the only strategy I've found is: 1. Deepen and strengthen my friendships with other Baha'is. 2. Make the responses above, and any others I think of, a part of my life, and continually talk to everyone about that part of my life. Jim The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as:
Scholarship and the House of Justice
In my view there is an enormous wealth of wonderful possibilities waiting to come to life, in all our pursuits, including scholarship, that will come about only when Baha'is in each field learn to have more faith in the Guidance of the House of Justice, to carefully and thoughtfully study its messages, and to embrace them and learn from them with all their hearts. How can those of us who feel that need, help respond to it? How can we promote more faith in the guidance of the House of Justice in ourselves, among Baha'is in general, and among Baha'is involved in scholarship in particular? Meanwhile, are there ways we can promote the goals and plans of the House of Justice among people, Baha'is or not, who lack faith in its guidance? I'll be organizing my thoughts about this. My first thought is that more faith in the guidance of the House of Justice will come largely through more faith in Baha'u'llah. Jim The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Spirit of God in community life
This is about some of my projects in my neighborhood. I'm using some new ideas that are partly inspired by my study of One Common Faith. One of my projects is learning to bring more of the spirit of God into community life. One of my strategies is to bring more of the spirit of God into my life, and to put more of myself into community life. (more spirit of God in my life)*(more of myself in community life) = (more spirit of God in community life) I've been working most of my life to bring more of the spirit of God into my life by praying, studying Baha'i writings and other materials, trying to put them into practice, participating in Baha'i community life, and serving goals and plans of Baha'i institutions. Now the training institutes are helping me practice and promote all that much better. Recently I've had some new ideas about putting more of myself into the community life of my neighborhood, in service and development projects. Two of my service projects have been reading to children, and doing skits to entertain some neighbors. Another is picking up trash off the street and sidewalk. One of my development projects is strengthening my friendships with my neighbors. I'm learning to stop and talk to people more often, walking between my house and the bus and the corner store. November 12, soon after I started thinking about what neighbors can do together to strengthen our friendships, someone was shot to death in the middle of the afternoon, in the intersection at the other end of my block. I thought of going over to that corner and saying some prayers, and the idea came to me that one thing neighbors might do together is pray. I went up and down the streets around my block, telling my neighbors that I was going to say some prayers at that corner the following Saturday, about the time of the shooting, inviting them to come and pray with me. I stood at that corner for an hour last Saturday, November 19, reading prayers, for children, for people who have died, for the neighborhood, and for humanity. One person came and stood with me for a few minutes. A few others passed by and asked for copies of the prayers I was reading. After that, I wrote this, to give to my neighbors: Ideas for a stronger and healthier neighborhood One way I see to have a stronger and healthier neighborhood is to have stronger and healthier friendships between neighbors. One way I see for neighbors to have stronger and healthier friendships is to spend time together doing things that interest them. Below is a list of some things that interest me, that I would do with neighbors. If you see anything that interests you, please let me know, and please let me know if you have any other interests that you would share with neighbors. (my name, address, and phone number) Some things that interest me, that I would do with neighbors: 1. Activities with children, like reading, games, and crafts. 2. Origami, and other paper crafts. 3. Neighborhood variety shows and fairs. 4. Workshops, especially: - Teaching children responsible behavior (Lee Canter lessons) - Moral and spiritual education of children - Cooperative games and sports - Mentoring - Spiritual growth 5. Prayers. 6. Sidewalk art. 7. Jigsaw puzzles. 8. Monopoly, Clue, and other board games. 9. Gardening and yard work. 10. Cleaning up streets and sidewalks. 11. Walking to the market or around the block. 12. Sitting on the front porch. Meanwhile, I'm planning to spend more time outside, in front of my house and here and there in the neighborhood, doing paper crafts, reading to children, doing sidewalk art, picking up trash in the street and on the sidewalk, jumping rope, playing with a yo-yo or frisbee, entertaining neighbors with skits, and whatever else I can think of that neighbors might do together. To get ideas of what neighbors might do together, I've been thinking about what people do in other communities, like a religious community or a city. That's where I got some of the ideas above. For example, thinking of the art exhibits in my city gave me the idea to display some of my paper crafts in front of my house. Jim The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as:
Re: Spirit of God in community life
Thanks, Don! Jim The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Spirit of God in community life
Jeanne, I'm so glad! Thanks for telling me! Jim I appreciated how positive it was and am inspired by the concrete examples that you shared. I had started to read ONE COMMON FAITH, but ended up putting aside. You've inspired me to pick it up again with an aim to put some of your ideas into practice in my own neighbour hood. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: looking for
I'm looking for a document which spelled out what laws and ordinances are obligatory for Occident. I know the Huquq and laws regarding devotional activities are now obligatory for Occident so far, anyone knows which more? Laws from the Kitab-i-Aqdas Not Yet Binding 1974-06-09 http://bahai-library.com/?file=uhj_laws_not_binding Further Application of the Laws of the Kitab-i-Aqdas 1999-12-28 http://bahai-library.com/?file=uhj_further_application_aqdas __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by Jim
Susan, I'm sorry I trouble you so much. This climber says with some dismay, I must leave this mountain for another day. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: UHJ membership and women
I want to put my posts in this thread in perspective. I'm not convinced it's right to permanently exclude women from the Universal House of Justice. I'm not convinced that it's wrong. I'm not worried about it. In my view, the equality of women and men that we need to promote is not whatever anyone means by equality. It's whatever Baha'u'llah prescribed, that Abdu'l-Baha calls equality. It's an open question for me whether that means including women on the Universal House of Justice or not. As mentioned earlier, the law regarding the membership of the Universal House of Justice is embedded in the Text and has been merely restated by the divinely appointed interpreters. It is therefore neither amenable to change nor subject to speculation about some possible future condition. (The Universal House of Justice, 1988 May 31, Women and UHJ Membership) It is natural that the friends would discuss such matters among themselves, as you and your correspondent have been doing on your Internet discussion group; how otherwise are they to deepen their understanding of the Teachings? But they should recognize that the resolution of differences of opinion on such fundamental questions is not to be found by continued discussion, but in referring to the Universal House of Justice itself, as you have done. Prolonged, unresolved, public discussion of these fundamental questions can do nothing but breed confusion and dissension. (The Universal House of Justice, 1992 Dec 10, Issues Related to Study Compilation) Similarly, for believers to be drawn into discussion of subjects which the Writings themselves tell us will find clarification only through the passing of time, such as the wisdom of Bah'lls limiting membership of the Universal House of Justice to men, the full implication of the Will and Testament, and the process by which the Bah Commonwealth will emerge, would tend to divert attention from real and pressing issues. Such speculation may, indeed, be the real reason why such subjects are often so ardently pursued by opponents of the Cause. (The Universal House of Justice, 1999 Nov 22, Attacks on the Faith in Internet Discussions, p. 2) I do not normally spend my time in Internet discussions, discussing the inclusion of women on the Universal House of Justice. From time to time I discuss my idea that there are no limits to the kinds of ideas we can promote, and when I do, I use the inclusion of women as an example, precisely because there are people who insist, that the Universal House of Justice has tried to repress and censor discussion of that topic among Baha'is. Some time ago, for a while, as part of my work with marginalized people, I spent some time exploring safe and healthy ways for a person who thinks its wrong to exclude women, to try to get the policy changed. That was when I wrote the essay that I posted in this thread, arguing that we are making public statements and promises contrary to what we are practicing. I am curious about what responses their might be to the issues I've raised, and to some issues others have raised, that I have not seen addressed by the Universal House of Justice. That's why I would like to see Susan B address those issues. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Limits on promoting ideas
I'm responding here to some of Susan M's posts in the thread UHJ membership and women, because the issue for me, in responding to those posts, is not women on the Universal House of Justice. The issue for me is the allegation that the Universal House of Justice has been trying to censor and repress some topics of discussion among Baha'is. Susan, I repeat my question: When you say that the House of Justice prohibited the publication of the Service of Women paper, do you mean that it made a formal decision, in accordance with its constitution, to prohibit the publication of the paper? You wrote But they have made it more than clear that the matter is not up for debate. Are you talking about one of the following? As mentioned earlier, the law regarding the membership of the Universal House of Justice is embedded in the Text and has been merely restated by the divinely appointed interpreters. It is therefore neither amenable to change nor subject to speculation about some possible future condition. (The Universal House of Justice, 1988 May 31, Women and UHJ Membership) Similarly, for believers to be drawn into discussion of subjects which the Writings themselves tell us will find clarification only through the passing of time, such as the wisdom of Baha'u'llah's limiting membership of the Universal House of Justice to men, the full implication of the Will and Testament, and the process by which the Baha'i Commonwealth will emerge, would tend to divert attention from real and pressing issues. Such speculation may, indeed, be the real reason why such subjects are often so ardently pursued by opponents of the Cause. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Limits on promoting ideas
Susan, I've thought some more about including what you've said, about the House objecting to the presentation of the Women's Service paper and prohibiting its publication, in my list of possible reasons for thinking that there are limits to the kinds of ideas we can promote. I'd like everything in that list to be something that people can find somewhere on the Internet. The Women's Service paper is posted at http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/docs/vol3/wmnuhj.htm , and the following appears at the bottom of the page: Editor's Note: This paper was written in Los Angeles in 1988; many of the authors were young academics and intellectuals associated with dialogue Magazine. It was presented at an Association for Baha'i Studies conference in New Zealand the same year and was immediately suppressed by the Baha'i authorities, and its authors were forbidden to circulate it in any way. I could include a link to that, in my list of possible reasons for thinking that there are limits to the kinds of ideas we can promote. Do you know of any place on the Internet where there is a better explanation of what you've said, about the House objecting to the presentation of the Women's Service paper and prohibiting its publication? Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Limits on promoting ideas
Susan, when I said that I'm wondering if I should include what you said about the House prohibiting discussion of women on the House of Justice, in my list of writings that might limit what kinds of ideas we can promote, I was talking about the list that I've posted in this thread. I've said that I don't see anything in the writings that places limits on the kinds of ideas we can promote. I've asked people who do see things in the writings that place limits on the kinds of ideas we can promote, to post them, and I'm compiling them. Whenever I discuss my idea that there are no limits to the kinds of ideas we can promote, I will post the list, so people can judge for themselves. You say that the House objected to the presentation of the Service of Women paper, and prohibited its publication. Is that something that you think people should consider, in deciding whether there are limits to the kinds of ideas we can promote? If so, I want to include it in my list, and I'm trying to decide how to say it. Here is my list so far: Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead. - Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 174 What one cannot properly do is to behave in a way that undermines the unity of the Baha'i community, by challenging the institutional authority that is an integral part of the Faith one professes to have accepted . . . - The Universal House of Justice, 1997 Jul 25, Removal of Baha'i Membership, M. McKenny As you recognize, the authority of the Universal House of Justice is unchallengeable. - The Universal House of Justice, 1997 Jun 03, Interpretational Authority of the House of Justice To none is given the right to put forth his own opinion or express his particular conviction. All must seek guidance and turn unto the Center of the Cause and the House of Justice. And he that turneth unto whatsoever else is indeed in grievous error. - Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament, p. 25 We should try and keep as near the authority [i.e. the scripture] as we can and show that we are faithful to it by quoting the Words of Baha'u'llah in establishing our points. To discard the authority of the revealed Words is heretic and to suppress completely individual interpretation of those Words is also bad. We should try to strike a happy medium between these two extremes. - Principles of Bahai Administration, pp. 24f. The believers should be careful not to deviate, even a hair-breadth, from the Teachings. Their supreme consideration should be to safeguard the purity of the principles, tenets and laws of the Faith - Shoghi Effendi, Dawn of a New Day, p. 61 It is natural that the friends would discuss such matters among themselves, as you and your correspondent have been doing on your Internet discussion group; how otherwise are they to deepen their understanding of the Teachings? But they should recognize that the resolution of differences of opinion on such fundamental questions is not to be found by continued discussion, but in referring to the Universal House of Justice itself, as you have done. Prolonged, unresolved, public discussion of these fundamental questions can do nothing but breed confusion and dissension. - Letter on behalf of the House of Justice dated December 10, 1992 In case of differences, Abdu'l-Baha must be consulted. They must revolve around his good pleasure. After Abdu'l-Baha, whenever the Universal House of Justice is organized it will ward off differences. - Abdul-Baha, Compilation on the Establishment of the Universal House of Justice, The Compilation of Compilations, Vol. I, p. 116 Beware, beware lest anyone create a rift or stir up sedition. Should there be differences of opinion, the Supreme House of Justice would immediately resolve the problems. Whatever will be its decision, by majority vote, shall be the real truth, inasmuch as that House is under the protection, unerring guidance, and care of the one true Lord. - Abdul-Baha, quoted in Messages from the Universal House of Justice 1963-1986, p. 53 Letter of 31 May 1988 from the Universal House of Justice to the NSA of New Zealand, concerning a paper about women on the Universal House of Justice, that was presented at a New Zealand Baha'i Studies conference. As mentioned earlier, the law regarding the membership of the Universal House of Justice is embedded in the Text and has been merely restated by the divinely appointed interpreters. It is therefore neither amenable to change nor subject to speculation about some possible future condition. (The Universal House of Justice, 1988 May 31, Women and UHJ Membership) It is natural that the friends would discuss such matters among themselves, as you and your correspondent have been doing on your Internet discussion group; how otherwise are they to deepen their
RE: UHJ membership and women
A minor point, but the above letter is dated 3 June 1997, not Dec. 10, 1992. Thanks, Susan. I need to remember to verify all of my references. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Susan, I wrote to the House of Justice this morning. I've included a copy of what I wrote, below Jim Dear friends, Someone wrote in an Internet discussion that the Universal House of Justice objected to the presentation of the paper The Service of Women on the Institutions of the Baha'i Faith at an Association for Baha'i Studies conference in New Zealand in 1988, and prohibited its publication. When I asked what was meant by saying that the House of Justice objected to the presentation of the paper, the response was that the Executive Committee was replaced because of it, that they sent out a Hand of the Cause to deal with the situation, and that Tony Lee received a letter telling him not to distribute that article any further. I was also told that all of this had been confirmed by the Counsellors, the ABMs, those serving on the Executive Committee of the ABS and Tony Lee. Is any of that true? Was the Executive Committee replaced by a decision of the Universal House of Justice, giving as its only reason the presentation of the paper at the conference? Was there a decision of the Universal House of Justice to send out a hand of the Cause to deal with the situation, giving as its only reason the presentation of the paper at the conference? Was there a decision of the Universal House of Justice to prohibit the publication, or distribution, or circulation of the paper? If any such decisions were made by the Universal House of Justice, are the texts of those decisions available on request? If so, can I see them? sincerely, Jim Habegger __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Susan, thank you for your responses to my questions. That helps. The information I provided you was to inform your own thinking on this matter. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: puzzled by Jim
Dear brother Khazeh, greetings! Here are my axioms: - Baha'u'llah is always right. What I am suggesting is that we each have a responsibility to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth, to the best of our knowledge, understanding, and capacity, even if it means promoting ideas that seem to us to contradict what the Universal House of Justice has said. I'm not trying to demonstrate that, or to provide evidence for it. I'm just saying what I think, and I'm asking for any evidence anyone has, contrary to what I'm suggesting. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: puzzled by Jim
Again, I am not trying to demonstrate that, or to provide evidence for it. I'm only saying what I think, and asking for any reasons anyone sees, to disagree with me. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: puzzled by Jim
Sorry! I'm posting on the Web, and I keep forgetting that this is a mailing list. I'm suggesting that it pleases God for each of us to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth, to the best of our knowledge, understanding, and capacity, even if it means promoting ideas that seem to us to contradict what God Himself has said. I'm not trying to demonstrate that, or to provide evidence for it. I'm only saying what I think, and asking for any reasons anyone sees, to disagree with me. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by Jim
Khazeh, do you see any reason in the Constitution of the Universal House of Justice, to disagree with my view that it pleases God for each of us to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth, to the best of our knowledge, understanding, and capacity, even if it means promoting ideas that seem to us to contradict what God Himself has said? Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by Jim
Has anyone here ever read the Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys? Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Limits on promoting ideas
I'm deeply grateful to everyone who has responded to me in this thread, and in the threads Limits on promoting ideas and UHJ membership and women. Thank you for your friendliness, helpfulness, patience, courtesy, and kindness. This has been very enlightening for me. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Susan, I'm sorry I was impatient with you. Thank you for your patience with me. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by Jim
Iskandar, you are very welcome to jump in! As you know, the whole theme of the Bayan, the Aqdas, and just about all of our Sacred Writings is that acquiring or attaining the good pleasure of God is the only thing that counts. Right? Absolutely. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: puzzled by Jim
The denizens of this plane speak no words -- but they gallop their chargers. They see but the inner reality of the Beloved. To them all words of sense are meaningless, and senseless words are full of meaning. They cannot tell one limb from another, one part from another. To them the mirage is the real river; to them going away is returning. (Baha'u'llah, The Four Valleys, p. 55) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
. . . it appears to be dancing on the edge of a very slippery slope. Do you mean that it would be dancing on the edge of a slippery slope for someone to do that, or that I'm dancing on the edge of a slippery slope by saying that it wouldn't be contrary to the Covenant, or both? Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: UHJ membership and women
Thank you, Richard. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
Susan B said: For now, I have a book monograph that needs to be finished and at the publisher in June, and a number of other large projects that need to be completed before I can turn to new projects. Take your time. I'm in no hurry. Like I said, it's not a burning issue for me. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
Susan M, yes I'm aware of the circumstances behind the House's letter to the NSA of New Zealand. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Limits on promoting ideas
Updated list of writings that might place limits on the *kinds* of ideas we can promote: Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead. - Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 174 What one cannot properly do is to behave in a way that undermines the unity of the Baha'i community, by challenging the institutional authority that is an integral part of the Faith one professes to have accepted . . . - The Universal House of Justice, 1997 Jul 25, Removal of Baha'i Membership, M. McKenny As you recognize, the authority of the Universal House of Justice is unchallengeable. - The Universal House of Justice, 1997 Jun 03, Interpretational Authority of the House of Justice To none is given the right to put forth his own opinion or express his particular conviction. All must seek guidance and turn unto the Center of the Cause and the House of Justice. And he that turneth unto whatsoever else is indeed in grievous error. - Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament, p. 25 We should try and keep as near the authority [i.e. the scripture] as we can and show that we are faithful to it by quoting the Words of Bahauallah in establishing our points. To discard the authority of the revealed Words is heretic and to suppress completely individual interpretation of those Words is also bad. We should try to strike a happy medium between these two extremes. - Principles of Bahaa Administration, pp. 24f. The believers should be careful not to deviate, even a hair-breadth, from the Teachings. Their supreme consideration should be to safeguard the purity of the principles, tenets and laws of the Faith - Shoghi Effendi, Dawn of a New Day, p. 61 It is natural that the friends would discuss such matters among themselves, as you and your correspondent have been doing on your Internet discussion group; how otherwise are they to deepen their understanding of the Teachings? But they should recognize that the resolution of differences of opinion on such fundamental questions is not to be found by continued discussion, but in referring to the Universal House of Justice itself, as you have done. Prolonged, unresolved, public discussion of these fundamental questions can do nothing but breed confusion and dissension. - Letter on behalf of the House of Justice dated December 10, 1992 In case of differences, Abdu'l-Baha must be consulted. They must revolve around his good pleasure. After Abdu'l-Baha, whenever the Universal House of Justice is organized it will ward off differences. - Abdul-Baha, Compilation on the Establishment of the Universal House of Justice, The Compilation of Compilations, Vol. I, p. 116 Beware, beware lest anyone create a rift or stir up sedition. Should there be differences of opinion, the Supreme House of Justice would immediately resolve the problems. Whatever will be its decision, by majority vote, shall be the real truth, inasmuch as that House is under the protection, unerring guidance, and care of the one true Lord. - Abdul-Baha, quoted in Messages from the Universal House of Justice 1963-1986, p. 53 Letter of 31 May 1988 from the Universal House of Justice to the NSA of New Zealand, concerning a paper about women on the Universal House of Justice, that was presented at a New Zealand Bah Studies conference. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
Then you know they objected to the presentation of the Service of Women paper at the New Zealand ABS and prohibited it's publication? I'm aware that you think so. I haven't seen anything in any message from any Baha'i institution, that says so. Here is how the letter to the NZ LSA begins: We have been informed of a paper, presented at a recent New Zealand Bah Studies conference, which raises the possibility that the ineligibility of women for membership on the Universal House of Justice may be a temporary provision subject to change through a process of progressive unfoldment of the divine purpose. We present the following points as a means of increasing the friends' understanding of this established provision of the Order of Bah'llthat membership of the Universal House of Justice is confined to men. Is that what you mean by saying that they objected to the presentation of the letter? I've seen you and some other people circulating a rumor that they prohibited the publication and distribution of the letter. I see no reason to believe it. Have you ever written to the House to ask about it? You asked me about this, in response to this, from one of my posts: In case there was any misunderstanding, I used the topic of women on the Universal House of Justice, as an example in my discussion of limits to promoting ideas, because I thought it would be a good example of a topic that some people might think the House of Justice has tried to repress Are you pointing to that letter, and that rumor, as reasons for thinking that the House has tried to repress the topic of women on the Universal House of Justice? Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
Susan, I'll rephrase my question. Are you pointing to that letter, and your conviction that the Universal House of Justice prohibited the publication and distribution of that paper, as reasons for thinking that the House has tried to repress the topic of women on the Universal House of Justice? Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
Susan, are you saying that the Universal House of Justice made a formal decision, in accordance with its constitution, to prohibit the publication of that paper? If so, is there some way for me to verify that? If you say to write and ask, I will. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: UHJ membership and women
Susan, I'm wondering if I should include this in my list of writings that might limit what kinds of ideas we can promote. What do you think? According to Susan Maneck, the Counsellors, the ABMs, those serving on the Executive Committee of the ABS and Tony Lee said that the Universal House of Justice objected to the presentation of the paper The Service of Women on the Institutions of the Baha'i Faith at a Baha'i Studies conference, and prohibited its publication. (Source: Susan Maneck) Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
At 0:01 + 5/26/05, Jim Habegger wrote: I'm saying that if that's what she thinks, even though you and I agree she's wrong, it would not be contrary to Baha'u'llah's purposes and prescriptions for her to try to find people whose ideas the members of the Universal House of Justice might take more seriously, and present her case to them. Don, you said: And you don't think that would be contrary to the statement I pointed out? Any actions, however, which savour of factionalism, of mobilizing pressure, or of stirring up contention among the Baha'is would be an inadmissible intrusion of the spirit of partisan politics into Baha'i community life. Not the way I'm imagining it. There might be something in the way I'm imagining it, that didn't get through. The way I'm imagining it, the person is not trying to create a faction, or mobilize pressure, or stir up contention among the Baha'is. I do see a possibility that if she does as I'm suggesting, it might have one or more of those effects, whether she means for it to or not. If she sees that possibility, and is not careful to avoid it, then I would say that she's not acting within the spirit of what Baha'u'llah has prescribed. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: UHJ membership and women
Limits on promoting ideas http://list.jccc.net:8080/read/messages?id=119783 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: UHJ membership and women
Dear Susan B., I'm glad to know that you found encouragement in my posts. Thank you for telling me. In case there was any misunderstanding, I used the topic of women on the Universal House of Justice, as an example in my discussion of limits to promoting ideas, because I thought it would be a good example of a topic that some people might think the House of Justice has tried to repress, not because I think it's a burning issue for anyone. I have no reason to think it's a burning issue for anyone, except as part of some defamation campaigns against the House of Justice. It certainly is not a burning issue for me. If you write an article, maybe you can help me reconcile some public statements and promises, from Baha'i institutions and agencies, with our exclusion of women from the House of Justice. Here is my reasoning: According to statements from Baha'i Institutions and agencies: 1. Equality of women and men, includes equality of rights. The realities of things have been revealed in this radiant century, and that which is true must come to the surface. Among these realities is the principle of the equality of man and woman -- equal rights and prerogatives in all things appertaining to humanity. (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 399) He made woman respected by commanding that all women be educated, that there be no difference in the education of the two sexes and that man and woman share the same rights. (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 365) 2. Membership on a spiritual assembly (house of justice) is part of the equality of rights. Exclusion of women from a house of justice is an obstacle to the enjoyment of complete equality of rights. Full rights have been accorded to Bah women residing in the cradle of the Faith, to participate in the membership of both national and local Bah Spiritual Assemblies, removing thereby the last remaining obstacle to the enjoyment of complete equality of rights in the conduct of the administrative affairs of the Persian Bah Community. (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 402) Regarding the position of the Bah women in India and Burma, and their future collaboration with the men in the administrative work of the Cause, I feel that the time is now ripe that those women who have already conformed to the prevailing custom in India and Burma by discarding the veil should not only be given the right to vote for the election of their local and national representatives, but should themselves be eligible to the membership of all Bah Assemblies throughout India and Burma, be they local or national. (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 401) In the local as well as the national Houses of Justice, however, women have the full right of membership. (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 369) 3. Equality includes participation in all branches of the administration of society, at all levels including the highest. In the Dispensation of Bah'll women are advancing side by side with men. There is no area or instance where they will lag behind: they have equal rights with men, and will enter, in the future, into all branches of the administration of society. Such will be their elevation that, in every area of endeavour, they will occupy the highest levels in the human world... (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 392) We agree that women must be fully involved at all levels of decision-making . . . (Baha'i International Community, 1990 Feb 27, Equality in Political Participation Decision-Making) We agree that women must be fully involved at all levels of decision-making, not only because it is just, but because, in the Bah view, the full participation of women will hasten social and political progress and lead to the establishment of world peace. (Baha'i International Community, 1990 Feb 27, Equality in Political Participation Decision-Making) For its part, the Bah International Community assures the Commission that it will continue to promote the equality of women and men as an essential prerequisite for peace and social progress, working to ensure that women will be prepared to participate as full partners with men in the council chambers of the world and will become the greatest promoters of international peace and arbitration. (Baha'i International Community, 1990 Feb 27, Equality in Political Participation Decision-Making) 4. Full and equal participation in the affairs of the world, including the arena of laws and politics, will lead to the establishment of world peace. So it will come to pass that when women participate fully and equally in the affairs of the world, when they enter confidently and capably the great arena of laws and politics, war will cease;... (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 393) We agree that women must be fully involved at all levels of
Re: Limits on promoting ideas
http://bahai-library.com/forum3/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Jim said: I think we all have a God-given responsibility to promote whatever we see as being in the best interests of all people, and I don't think an appearance of contradicting the Universal House of Justice relieves anyone of that responsibility. Susan said: Are we talking about 'an appearance' or *knowingly* contradicting the House? To answer your question in those terms, I would first need to verify that I understand what you mean by them. It might save a lot of work for both of us if I try responding in different terms, and see if it answers your question. From the message of 18 May 1995, posted above, written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice: Individual believers are entirely free to make their own recommendations for developments which they feel would be desirable . . . they are free to discuss these matters informally among themselves. Those two statements are sufficient for my purposes in this thread. What I'm saying is: 1. Not only are we free to make our own recommendations, and to discuss among ourselves the recommendations we would like to make, we have a *responsibility* to do so. 2. That applies just as much to recommendations that we see as contrary to what the Universal House of Justice has said, as to any other recommendations for developments we feel would be desirable. For example, in my view, anyone who thinks it would be desirable to include women on the Universal House of Justice, even if she sees that as contrary to what the House of Justice has said, has a responsibility to discuss that with other Baha'is, if she thinks it might help her in considering how to present her case to the Universal House of Justice, or in finding someone who might be better able to do so. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Susan said: When you raised this issue on TRB you listed among the actions which you thought acceptable, taking a complaint regarding the exclusion of women from the Universal House of Justice to the United Nations. Perhaps Brent or some others might commnent as to whether such action would be contrary to the Teachings. They are welcome to do so, but that would have nothing to do with my purpose in this thread. I'm not looking for writings that limit the *manner* in which we can promote our ideas. I'm looking for writings that limit the *kinds* of ideas we can promote. Then again, maybe you're posing the question of whether it is contrary to the Covenant to advocate bringing the question of women on the Universal House of Justice to the United Nations. In that case I need to correct your statement. I abandoned the idea of bringing the question to the United Nations. What I've suggested as a possibility, for Baha'is who think it's wrong to exclude women from the Universal House of Justice, is to bring the question to an international institution for resolution of religious conflicts, if one is ever established that the Baha'i Community supports in the same way we support the UN. As far as I know, such a body has not been established. Possibly there never will be such a body. I'm saying that *if* that ever happened, it would not be contrary to the Covenant for a Baha'i to bring the question of women on the Universal House of Justice to that body, if she first informed the Universal House of Justice of her intentions, and was not instructed by it not to do so. I don't think the Universal House of Justice would prevent anyone from doing that, or take any action against anyone for doing so. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Susan, I think I understand. I had an idea that you were reading promote that way, and I'm glad to have confirmation of that. It might help if I give more concrete examples of what I think may or may not be in accordance with Baha'u'llah's prescriptions, in discussing our views. The first thing I would urge anyone to do, who wants to discuss recommendations with other Baha'is that she sees are unpopular in the Baha'i community, regardless of what the House of Justice has said, is to study and practice Abdu'l-Baha's advice on teaching with wisdom, with her recommendation as the message, and Baha'is opposed to it as the negligent ones. If every one of the friends (believers) were to establish relations of friendship and right dealings with one of the negligent souls, associate and live with him with perfect kindliness, and meanwhile through good conduct and moral behavior lead him to divine instruction, to heavenly advice and teachings, surely he would gradually arouse that negligent person and would change his ignorance into knowledge. Souls are liable to estrangement. Such methods should be adopted that the estrangement should be first removed, then the Word will have effect. If one of the believers be kind to one of the negligent ones and with perfect love should gradually make him understand the reality of the Cause of God in such a way that the latter should know in what manner the Religion of God hath been founded and what its object is, doubtless he will become changed; excepting abnormal souls who are reduced to the state of ashes and whose hearts are like stones, yea, even harder. If by this method every one of the friends of God were to try to lead one soul to the right path, the number of the believers would be doubled every year. But this should be carried out with perfect wisdom and in such a manner that no harm would ever result therefrom. In the same way those who deliver the Message should travel to all parts of the country. And if delivering the Message should be the cause of disturbance, let them then be engaged in encouraging and educating the friends, in order that those souls receive spiritual attraction and rejoice, seek delight and ecstasy, acquire new life and through the fragrances of sanctity gain vivacity and freshness. Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v2, p. 390 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Again, using the inclusion of women on the Universal House of Justice as an example, I think the following would *not* be contrary to Baha'u'llah's purposes and prescriptions: - Discussing it with other Baha'is, online or offline, to get ideas about how to make a better case for it. - Discussing it with other Baha'is, looking for someone who might be better placed to bring the case to the attention of the Universal House of Justice. - Educating other Baha'is about the issues raised in the paper on women's service, with the hope that eventually someone will learn about them who can make a better case for it, or who will be better placed to bring it to the attention of the Universal House of Justice. - Writing to the Universal House of Justice about bringing the question to an international institution for the resolution of religious conflicts, if there were such a thing, and doing so if the House of Justice does not instruct otherwise. I think the following *would* be contrary to Baha'u'llah's purposes and prescriptions: - Trying to build up a coalition of Baha'is, with the purpose of trying to pressure the Universal House of Justice to change the policy. - Publicizing the exclusion of women from the Universal House of Justice, with the purpose of trying to shame it into changing the policy. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
But here you are talking about 'teaching' these ideas which does strike me as a form of promotion, no matter how well it is done. Exactly. That's why I've been using the word promote, when I raise this question. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
More examples: - Imagine someone who disagrees with the reasoning of the Universal House of Justice about excluding women from its membership, and thinks that the real reason is simply sexism, and that the members haven't really given the idea a fair chance. Imagine that one way she sees for that to change is for the case to be presented by people whose ideas the members of the Universal House of Justice might take more seriously. I don't think it would be contrary to Baha'u'llah's purposes and prescriptions for her to try to find such people, and present her case to them. - Imagine the same person again. I don't think it would be contrary to Baha'u'llah's purposes for her to try to educate as many people as possible about the issues raised in the paper on women's service, to increase the possibility of future members of the Universal House of Justice being in favor of changing the policy. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Susan, when I said to imagine someone who disagrees with the reasoning of the Universal House of Justice about excluding women from its membership, and thinks that the real reason is simply sexism, and that the members haven't really given the idea a fair chance, I didn't mean that I thought it would be possible for that to happen, or that I could see any way to reconcile that with the writings. I just meant to imagine someone who thinks that way. If it helps any, let's suppose, for purposes of discussion, that she would be wrong to think that. I'm saying that if that's what she thinks, even though you and I agree she's wrong, it would not be contrary to Baha'u'llah's purposes and prescriptions for her to try to find people whose ideas the members of the Universal House of Justice might take more seriously, and present her case to them. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Vaughn, that makes very good sense to me. I've never thought of it quite that way before. Thank you! Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Limits on promoting ideas
Since you quote from the letter written in regards to Michael McKenny's removal from the rolls, what do you think was unacceptable about the *manner* in which he was expressing his views? He continued a series of open Internet postings in which he challenged the authority of Bah institutions in language alternating between conventional professions of respect and contemptuous reflections on the integrity and actions of those institutions, after being advised that such deliberate contention is entirely unacceptable in one who claims to believe in Bah'll Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Thank you, Vaughn. Have you ever seen any decision by the Universal House of Justice, that forbids us to promote the inclusion of Women on the Universal House of Justice, or a Guardian after Shoghi Effendi, or any other view in particular? Have you ever seen any decision by the Universal House of Justice that forbids us to promote any view that we imagine is contrary to its own? Have you ever seen any decision by the Universal House of Justice that requires us, before promoting any view, to first make sure that it is not contrary to anything the Universal House of Justice has ever written, as we understand it? Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Rather, I think, the Master is forbidding the promotion of interpretations/opinions/ideas which are understood by the person himself to be contrary to guidance from the Guardian or the House of Justice, because the person has turned elsewhere for his light. Vaughn, I see two ways of reading that. Rather, I think, the Master is forbidding the promotion of interpretations/opinions/ideas which are understood by the person himself to be contrary to guidance from the Guardian or the House of Justice, because, as I see it, anyone who does that has turned elsewhere for his light. Rather, I think, the Master is forbidding the promotion of interpretations/opinions/ideas which are understood by the person himself to be contrary to guidance from the Guardian or the House of Justice, *if* a person is doing that because he has turned elsewhere for his light. Is one of those what you meant? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Limits on promoting ideas
Brent, thank you for that post. I was very glad to see that. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Limits on promoting ideas
Brent, thank you. That's very helpful. Well done. All of that is part of the context in which I would want my ideas about this to be understood. I've seen some reputed defenders of the Faith reinforcing the allegations of detractors, that the Universal House of Justice has drawn boundaries around the content of our discussions, and I was afraid it might have a stifling effect on the study of the Faith, detrimental to its progress. What you have said reassures me. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Limits on promoting ideas
Don, that's perfect! Wonderful! Thank you!!! Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Limits on promoting ideas
As I understand it, some people think the Covenant, as it is applied by the Universal House of Justice, draws boundaries around the kinds of ideas we can promote. In that view, it might be contrary to the Covenant, for example, to promote the inclusion of women on the Universal House of Justice, or a Guardian after Shoghi Effendi. I see limits in the writings on the *manner* in which we can promote our ideas, but I do not see any boundaries on the *kinds* of ideas we can promote. In fact, I think we all have a responsibility to promote whatever we see as in the best interests of all people, and I don't think that an appearance of contradicting the Universal House of Justice relieves anyone of that responsibility. Please note, I'm *not* talking about freedom. I'm *not* talking about rights. I'm talking about responsibility. The Great Being saith: Blessed and happy is he that ariseth to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth. - Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 250 I'm looking for writings that might place limits on the *kinds* of ideas we can promote. Below are the ones that I've found so far. I already know there are limits on the *manner* in which we can promote our ideas. What I'm looking for is limits on the *kinds* of ideas we can promote. Jim Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead. - Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 174 What one cannot properly do is to behave in a way that undermines the unity of the Bah' community, by challenging the institutional authority that is an integral part of the Faith one professes to have accepted - The Universal House of Justice, 1997 Jul 25, Removal of Baha'i Membership, M. McKenny As you recognize, the authority of the Universal House of Justice is unchallengeable. - The Universal House of Justice, 1997 Jun 03, Interpretational Authority of the House of Justice To none is given the right to put forth his own opinion or express his particular conviction. All must seek guidance and turn unto the Center of the Cause and the House of Justice. And he that turneth unto whatsoever else is indeed in grievous error. - Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament, p. 25 We should try and keep as near the authority [i.e. the scripture] as we can and show that we are faithful to it by quoting the Words of Bahullh in establishing our points. To discard the authority of the revealed Words is heretic and to suppress completely individual interpretation of those Words is also bad. We should try to strike a happy medium between these two extremes. - Principles of Bah Administration, pp. 24f. The believers should be careful not to deviate, even a hair-breadth, from the Teachings. Their supreme consideration should be to safeguard the purity of the principles, tenets and laws of the Faith - Shoghi Effendi, Dawn of a New Day, p. 61 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Limits on promoting ideas
Thank you, Mark. I am not aware of any limitations on the sorts of ideas which may be promoted. I'm very glad to know that. Neither am I. However, there are limitations on the means by which one may promote those ideas. A agree! In other words, the House is thankfully not asking for Baha'is to conform to some fixed orthodoxy. I'm very glad to see you say so. I agree. However, they are establishing an orthopraxy, or behavioral standards, for expressing one's views. I don't see anything in the standards they're promoting, that I didn't see already in the writings of Baha'u'llah. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: People of capacity
Dick, I hope you will read what I posted to you in the other thread. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
re: Internal Social Development
Thank you, Mark. When I say that I see sectarianism, personality cults, and mind control in the Baha'i community, I don't mean to say that the community is sectarian, or that it's a cult, or that it supports mind control, as a whole. I mean that I see sectarianism, and personality cults, and mind control, among some of the members, in varying degrees in different parts of the community. I haven't seen any reason to think there is deliberate mind control. It might be better to say that I see controlling behavior, along with every other kind of emotional, mental, psychological, and occasionally even physical, abuse. I would say, you name it, we've got it. I think the nature of the Faith makes that inevitable, in two ways, at least. 1. There is no personality or character test for membership. There is no personality or character defect that automatically disqualifies a person from membership. A person's character and personality do not change when he signs a declaration card. How could we *not* have all the social problems in our community, that exist outside it? 2. If we didn't have the same social problems to face inside the faith, that people are facing outside of it, it would be unjust, and make us complacent. It would make the Baha'i community into a privileged class of people, basking in social comfort while everyone else is living in social agony. The problem for me is not so much that we have social problems. What concerns me is the resistance to recognizing them, and addressing them openly and explicitely. But I see it coming. The Guidelines for Local Spiritual Assemblies on Domestic Violence opens doors, and provides moral support and starting points for all kinds of internal social development, including promotion of social justice. I see the statement of the BIC on Overcoming Corruption and Safeguarding Integrity in Public Institutions as valuable for those purposes, also. Jim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
