Re: House letter to me

[Matt Haase]

Yes, they are busy answering peoples questions based on their curiosity.
There are thousands upon thousands of people who just want to know the truth
of something, and don't want to rely on their neighbors for knowledge.
Whether they have children already is irrelevant. They may want to have
children in the future and knowing the answers to these questions before
hand could actually be a good way to prepare. The Universal House of Justice
doesn't mind answering peoples' questions, or they would say so. They have
the authority to say so, and they don't have to be "nice." They don't need
people to stick up for them and say they are too busy.







On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 3:25 PM, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> All the original letter said was that the individual
> > Baha'i should decide for himself.
>
> Dear David,
>
> That would include having individual Baha'is decide whether or not to
> monitor what their children watch.
>
> David, they are very busy at the World Centre. You shouldn't be
> bothering them with question just to satisfy your curiosity. You don't
> have any children, do you? How then does this question concern you?
>
> warmest, Susan
>
>
>
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Re: Joining Partners with God

[Matt Haase]

The phrase "joining partners with God" is an Islamic term originally, and is
often interpreted to mean a belief that people should pray to Prophets,
Angels, Messengers to get closer to God, instead of approaching God
directly. It is condemned in the Qur'an as the only sin that God would not
forgive. I'm too tired to quote anything at the moment, but I will once I
get some sleep. However, it is not as black and white as that because the
Qur'an also alludes to the possibility of the permissibility of using
someone as an "intercessor" for God if God "permits" it. There are many
authentic traditions that support this view, but it in no way implies any
sort of worship of any other Being than God Alone.


On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 8:12 PM, Dean Betts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> Fellow Baha'is,
>
> Please read the following from the Persian Hidden Words:
>
>  44. O COMPANION OF MY THRONE!
> Hear no evil, and see no evil, abase not thyself, neither sigh and weep.
> Speak no evil, that thou mayest not hear it spoken unto thee, and magnify
> not the faults of others that thine own faults may not appear great; and
> wish not the abasement of anyone, that thine own abasement be not exposed.
> Live then the days of thy life, that are less than a fleeting moment, with
> thy mind stainless, thy heart unsullied, thy thoughts pure, and thy nature
> sanctified, so that, free and content, thou mayest put away this mortal
> frame, and repair unto the mystic paradise and abide in the eternal kingdom
> for evermore.
>
>  (Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)
>
> To whom do you think " O COMPANION OF MY THRONE" refers?
> We are warned many times in the Writings to not "join partners with God".
> Would not a  COMPANION OF HIS THRONE be at least a minor partner?
> Therefore, I am thinking that this Persian Hidden Word #44 must be
> addressed to the Blessed Beauty.
> But, Persian Hidden Word #44, does not appear to be addressed to
> Baha'u'llah.
>
> Please share your thoughts on this.
>
> Happy Naw-Ruz,
>
> Dean Betts,
> Charlotte, NC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: % of Writings online in original languages

[Matt Haase]

I am going to learn Arabic again (I took two years of it at the University,
but forgot most of it), and was wondering if anyone knew if one has to know
a specific dialect to read Baha'u'llah's Writings. I was learning
"Levantine" which is Lebanese and Syrian based, but I don't know if
Baha'u'lah wrote in a dialect that was more Iranian or Iraqi based?

peace,




On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 9:55 AM, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dear David,
>
> They can be found here: http://reference.bahai.org/fa/ and here:
> http://reference.bahai.org/ar/
>
> I can't tell you what percentage this represents as some Tablets are
> still being sent to the World Centre by the families of the
> recipients. This basically represents those that have been previously
> published in some form or another.
>
> warmest, Susan
>
> On 3/23/08, David Friedman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > I know there was a letter some time back about the releasing of the
> Writings
> > in the original languages.  I'm just wondering out of interest
> approximately
> > what percentage of the Writings in the original languages can be found
> > online currently.
> >
> > Regards,
> > David
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: % of Writings online in original languages

[Matt Haase]

Thank you all,

I still have a Modern Standard Arabic textbook from my classes. I think
there are three or four books in the total series. I was also thinking of
learning Arabic from one of the local Mosques. They teach standard Arabic,
and Qur'anic Arabic.



On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 6:40 PM, Sen & Sonja <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > I am going to learn Arabic again (I took two years of it at the
> > University, but forgot most of it), and was wondering if anyone knew
> > if one has to know a specific dialect to read Baha'u'llah's Writings.
>
> Baha'u'llah uses a standard 19th century literary Arabic, which is
> not different from one region to another.
>
> There is a certain terminology that one must learn, by putting the
> texts translated by Shoghi Effendi alongside the Arabic original, so
> that you can relate what you read to the terms and concepts that you
> are familiar with in the Writings in English.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Sen
> --
> --
>  -- -- --
> The influence of individual souls is and always will be beloved.  For
> the influence
> of each soul is its fruit, and a soul without influence is considered
> a tree without
> fruit in the most great realm.  Speak forth for the sake of God, and
> spread the
> cause for his sake.  Do not look at whether others accept or deny,
> but rather at
> the service you are commanded to perform by God.
>
> Baha'u'llah -- Tablet of the Son -- http://www-
> personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/2001/bhson.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Relativity of truth

[Matt Haase]

I had a conversation like this with a friend of mine, who introduced me to
his idea that the 'relativity of religious truth' meant more than another
word to say 'progressive revelation'. He presented an eloquent, but
unconvincing (to my mind) argument that boils down to the concept that since
God is the Unknowable, whatever is said about Him in all of the Religious
Scriptures is true. If the Hebrew Scriptures and the Qur'an proclain
Monotheism, it is true. If the Hindu Scriptures proclaim Polytheism, it is
true. If God condemns the belief in the Trinity in one scripture, it is
true. But if God affirms the Trinity later on, it is true. I don't accept
that kind of logic, personally.

peace,







On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 9:23 PM, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > There are passages in the writings of the Guardian where he explained
> > that what he meant by the relativity of religious truth, is that
> > revealed truth is relative to the age in which it is revealed.  That is,
> > the Guardian used this phrase as a synonym for "Progressive Revelation".
> >
>
> Dear Brent,
>
> Keep in mind though that the principle of Progressive Revleation also
> occurs within Dispensations.
>
> "Jesus, for example, did not limit polygamy, but abolished divorce
> except in the case of fornication; Muhammad limited the number of
> wives to four reintroducing permission for divorce; Bahá'u'lláh, Who
> was revealing His Teachings in the milieu of a Muslim society,
> introduced the Question of monogamy gradually in accordance with the
> principles of wisdom and progressive unfoldment of His purpose."
>
>(The Universal House of Justice, 1998 Apr 06, Memorandum re Wives
> of
> Baha'u'llah)
>
> warmest, Susan
>
>
>
>
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Re: Relativity of Truth

[Matt Haase]

What I mean Firestormin, is that not all of the Religious Scriptures agree
on fundamental theological matters. For instance, how am I supposed to
believe in the Hindu Scriptures that list a whole slew of various gods,
while simulteanously believe in the Hebrew and Qur'anic scriptures which
condemn polytheism? Even though I am a 'universalist' at heart, I can't let
a logical fallacy like that go unnoticed in my mind and heart.

peace,




On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 8:13 PM, firestorm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Matt,
>  there's a simple way to sort out the idea:
>  tell me which Revealed Text is error...
> nb i dfo nottt say..which commne t by whatever ecclesiatic is just so much
> roo dandruff...
>  but which Revealed Text is error?
>  if none, then...?
>
>
>
>
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Re: Relativity of Truth

[Matt Haase]

Hi Ian,

I would like to read that paper.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Ian Kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> If anyone is interested I will be pleased to send a copy of my paper
> "Relativism and the Baha'i Writings" presented at Irfan Colloquium at
> Bosch
> in May 2007.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Ian Kluge
>
> 
 
 
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-Original Message-
 

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brent Poirier
> Attorney
> Sent: March 25, 2008 11:47 AM
> To: Baha'i Studies
> Subject: Re: Relativity of Truth
>
> Matt Haase wrote:
>
>  >>I had a conversation like this with a friend of mine, who introduced
> me to his idea that the 'relativity of religious truth' meant more than
> another word to say 'progressive revelation'. He presented an eloquent,
> but unconvincing (to my mind) argument that boils down to the concept
> that since God is the Unknowable, whatever is said about Him in all of
> the Religious Scriptures is true. If the Hebrew Scriptures and the
> Qur'an proclain Monotheism, it is true. If the Hindu Scriptures proclaim
> Polytheism, it is true. If God condemns the belief in the Trinity in one
> scripture, it is true. But if God affirms the Trinity later on, it is
> true. I don't accept that kind of logic, personally.>>
>
> I'm with you, Matt.  Whatever wacky opinions I may express, if I don't
> back them up with the Baha'i Writings, my listener should not attribute
> these statements as having any bearing whatever on what the Baha'i Faith
> stands for.  That's why, I feel, the Guardian wrote through his secretary:
>
> "Divine Truth is relative and that is why we are enjoined to constantly
> refer the seeker to the Word itself -- and why any explanations we make
> to ease the journey of the soul of any individual must be based on the
> Word -- and the Word alone."
> (From a letter dated 4 June 1957 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to
> the National Spiritual Assembly of Canada; from the Compilation, The
> Individual and Teaching - Raising the Divine Call, p. 39)
>
> Best regards
> Brent
>
>
>
>
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> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message
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Re: Relativity of Truth

[Matt Haase]

I don't know, I just feel that the Qur'an intends itself to be quite literal
when talking about the Oneness and Uniqueness of God.


On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:13 PM, firestorm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> matt,
>  what logical fallacy?
>  i mean this dead seriously.
>  if to say God is One is shirk...what is more shirky about 6 or 12? off
> hand, in what Text are u or i given Authority to classify 1st degree, 2nd
> degree, 3rd degree, or involuntary shirk?
>  or are we all guilty of involuntary shirk by reason of our having
> material bodies? and thus yet, another proof of original sin in conformance
> with he Master's explanation. and only punishible to the degree we refuse to
> forgive others of the same crime? --Lor'ds Prayer. and who does the
> punishing? us. for we have met the enemy and he is uspogo
>
>   it's a logical fallacy to say that light is a particle, or it's a wave.
> it can't be both. that;s not logical. o..never mind.
> it's just True.
>  "things don;t have to be possible--they just have to be true"-from the
> 2nd book of His dark Materials...known in usa as the golden compass.
>   einstein resolves the issue percisely how Baha'u'llah Told him to in the
> Iqan...it depends on ur pov.
>   from outside the system (godel's hypothesis) the results can be
> Reported.
>   inside the system, nothing knows what it is.
> "she turned my wave lengths into particles by the power of observance,
> sometimes on the sly" --in old louisville, serpent wisdom.
>   "at one time We Said...whatever.. at another We Said...hmmm. something
> else, anyway...can u just get ur game on and go do It? "
>  ok.. that may be a paraphrase:-)
>   this can leave one paralysed with..but how do i >>>know< and the Voice in It's unutterable mercy created smashmouth to tell
> u...u'll never know if u don;t go.
>
>
>
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> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
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> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
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> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
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>
> 
 
 
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Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song

[Matt Haase]

So, until we all agree and believe in the same religion, there will be no
peace? That is the message of the Faith?




On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Richard H. Gravelly <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  *The problem, if you will is that neither have accepted the Faith.*
> **
> *Richard.*
>
>
>  - Original Message -
> *From:* Lara Kearns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> *To:* Baha'i Studies 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 26, 2008 12:36 PM
> *Subject:* Fwd: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> >
> > Subject: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
> >
> > (with English sub-titles)
> >
> > It is so simple...why is there a problem?
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=5d_i2F2LlF8
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
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> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
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> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
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>
>
> 
 
 
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Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song

[Matt Haase]

The Verse you quoted is very short, and I feel you have put a lot of
personal interpretation into it to support your view that the very reason
why there is conflict is because they are non-Baha'is. This suggests that if
they were Baha'is, they would not be in conflict with each other. Well, of
course. If everyone were of the same religion, political persuasion, liked
the same foods, the same music, etc, there would be substantially less
conflict. But that is not a unity I envision as something I would like to
work towards to. I would hate to wake up one morning and realize the Matel
Barbie Girl World I helped create.

The reason why I take issue with this view is nothing personal, but because
I feel it breeds mistrust of the 'other', and essentially puts the blame of
the problems of the world onto these people who haven't become Baha'is, as
if it is their fault by the fact that they practice a different religion
than the Baha'i Faith. Given that the members of the Baha'i Faith are only
in the millions, this can lead to an elitist view that only these millions
of Baha'is know what is going on and everyone else is just playing around or
something to that affect. I have run into this view many, many times, and I
disagree with it.



On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 2:11 AM, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I can't see that your qoute had any relevance to the context whatsoever.
>
> On 3/27/08, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Uncharacteristically Susan, you misunderstood the reason for my quoting
> that
> > particular passage.  We do not teach Jews in Israel.  We do not teach
> anyone
> > in Israel.
> >
> > Look at the context in which I posted the quote and give it some
> thought.
> >
> > Richard.
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Susan Maneck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Baha'i Studies" 
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 5:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
> >
> >
> > The passage you cited has absolutely nothing to do with the question
> > of what would resolve the Arab-Israeli dispute. The way you used that
> > passage is certainly *not* reflective of the way Baha'u'llah tells us
> > to deal with non-Baha'is. This is.
> >
> > Consort with all men, O people of Baha, in a spirit of friendliness
> > and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a
> > jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language
> > of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil
> > its purpose, your object is attained. If any one should refuse it,
> > leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye
> > deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts
> > of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with
> > meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and
> > understanding
> >
> > (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 288)
> >
> >
> > On 3/26/08, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Am I to understand you to intend to say: "This Word of Baha'u'llah
> > resolves
> > > nothing?"
> > >
> > > Richard.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Susan Maneck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: "Baha'i Studies" 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 4:44 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
> > >
> > >
> > > And what Christian or Muslim would not the say the same?
> > >
> > > This resolves nothing. It just makes us like all the other religions
> > > making exclusive claims.
> > >
> > > On 3/26/08, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > I believe you have closely described the matter.  In the Writings,
> it
> > > seems
> > > > to me, it has been put in several ways.  Following is one.
> > > >
> > > > "Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso
> remaineth
> > > dead,
> > > > shall never live."(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of
> > > Baha'u'llah,
> > > > p. 213)
> > > >
> > > > Dominus vobiscum.
> > > >
> > > > Richard.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Original Message -
> > > > From: Matt Haase
> > > > To: Baha'i Studies
> > &

Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song

[Matt Haase]

I understand that what you said was not directed to me in the first place,
but since this is a forum, what one says in direction to another person is
not so much a private conversation, but an invitation for other people to
join in if they want to.

I'm not a Baha'i, by the way, so it felt somewhat insulting to hear someone
say that the reason why there is conflict is because they haven't accepted
the Faith.



On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 8:51 AM, Richard H. Gravelly <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> That you cannot see the issue, context, etc. is rather clear from your
> responses.  But then the post was not directed to you in the first
> instance.
>
> Dominus vobiscum.
>
> Richard.
>
>
> - Original Message -
>
> I can't see that your qoute had any relevance to the context whatsoever.
>
> On 3/27/08, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Uncharacteristically Susan, you misunderstood the reason for my quoting
> that
> > particular passage.  We do not teach Jews in Israel.  We do not teach
> anyone
> > in Israel.
> >
> > Look at the context in which I posted the quote and give it some
> thought.
> >
> > Richard.
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Susan Maneck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Baha'i Studies" 
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 5:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
> >
> >
> > The passage you cited has absolutely nothing to do with the question
> > of what would resolve the Arab-Israeli dispute. The way you used that
> > passage is certainly *not* reflective of the way Baha'u'llah tells us
> > to deal with non-Baha'is. This is.
> >
> > Consort with all men, O people of Baha, in a spirit of friendliness
> > and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a
> > jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language
> > of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil
> > its purpose, your object is attained. If any one should refuse it,
> > leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye
> > deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts
> > of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with
> > meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and
> > understanding
> >
> > (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 288)
> >
> >
> > On 3/26/08, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Am I to understand you to intend to say: "This Word of Baha'u'llah
> > resolves
> > > nothing?"
> > >
> > > Richard.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Susan Maneck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: "Baha'i Studies" 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 4:44 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
> > >
> > >
> > > And what Christian or Muslim would not the say the same?
> > >
> > > This resolves nothing. It just makes us like all the other religions
> > > making exclusive claims.
> > >
> > > On 3/26/08, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > I believe you have closely described the matter.  In the Writings,
> it
> > > seems
> > > > to me, it has been put in several ways.  Following is one.
> > > >
> > > > "Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso
> remaineth
> > > dead,
> > > > shall never live."(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of
> > > Baha'u'llah,
> > > > p. 213)
> > > >
> > > > Dominus vobiscum.
> > > >
> > > > Richard.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Original Message -
> > > > From: Matt Haase
> > > > To: Baha'i Studies
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 3:16 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So, until we all agree and believe in the same religion, there will
> be
> > no
> > > > peace? That is the message of the Faith?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Richard H. Gravelly
> > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The problem, if you will is t

Re: Clashes

[Matt Haase]

I have an edition of the magazine 'What is Enlightenment?', and there is a
very interesting article with a Sufi Shaykh Ragip who is also a trained
Psyhologist (or Psychiatrist) where he mentions something about this idea of
'contending with Satan'. I will quote briefly from that part of the article.

'One way that Sheikh Tosun has spoken to this is: "What do you do when a
thief comes into the house at night and you're in your bedroom, and you hear
this theif creeping around, you hear the candlesticks going into his bag? If
you charge downstairs with a knife in your hand, the thief will also have a
knife. If you have a gun in your hand, the thief will have a gun. No matter
what you've got in the house, the thief is going to have the same. It's
going to mirror that power that you use against it, and it's going to be
terribly destructive." So what do you do? The answer that he gave is, "You
turn the light on!" Because the thief is a coward, and if you turn the light
of awareness on the process, the thief will flee. You don't fight. You see,
the stupidest thing in the world is to fight with Satan. There are lots of
great stories in Sufism and elsewhere that show that when you try to fight
with Satan, guess who wins? It's a very bad idea.'




On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 1:21 PM, Gilberto Simpson <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Does anyone have a source/elaboration/explanation for the idea that
> Adam was expelled from the Garden for disagreeing with Satan?
>
> -Gilberto
>
> On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 9:36 AM, Richard H. Gravelly
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Benjamin La Framboise asked the question:
> >  Does this conversation count as a quarrel, a conflict, a dispute?
> >
> >  Baha'is are allowed a certain amount of latitude in their discussions:
> >
> >  "The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of
> differing
> >  opinions." (Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha,
> p. 87)
> >
> >  There is a limit:
> >
> >  "The honoured members of the Spiritual Assembly should exert their
> efforts
> >  so that no differences may occur, and if such differences do occur,
> they
> >  should not reach the point of causing conflict, hatred and antagonism,
> which
> >  lead to threats. When you notice that a stage has been reached when
> enmity
> >  and threats are about to occur, you should immediately postpone
> discussion
> >  of the subject, until wranglings, disputations, and loud talk vanish,
> and a
> >  propitious time is at hand."
> >  ('Abdu'l-Bahá: Consultation: A Compilation, from a previously
> untranslated
> >  Tablet)
> >
> >   (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 178)
> >
> >  Although these advices were Written in the context of instructions to
> >  Spiritual Assembly consultations, it seems to me that they have general
> >  application.
> >
> >  With regard to the explanation by Abdu'l-Baha regarding "Adam and the
> >  others"
> >
> >  "Remember how Adam and the others once dwelt together in Eden. No
> sooner,
> >  however, did a quarrel break out between Adam and Satan than they were,
> one
> >  and all, banished from the Garden, and this was meant as a warning to
> the
> >  human race, a means of telling humankind that dissension -- even with
> the
> >  Devil -- is the way to bitter loss. This is why, in our illumined age,
> God
> >  teacheth that conflicts and disputes are not allowable, not even with
> Satan
> >  himself." (Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p.
> 275)
> >
> >  I believe that this can have specific and general application as well.
> >
> >  Dominus vobiscum.
> >
> >  Richard.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: Capitalization of Pronouns

[Matt Haase]

I had heard that one of the reasons why the English translations of Baha'i
texts capitalize pronouns is because in the Arabic and Persian languages,
they often write "Peace be upon him" every time the name of a Prophet is
mentioned. I know this is true for Muslim texts whenever the name of the
Prophet Muhammad is mentioned. Do the Baha'i texts have the same thing in
the original languages they were written?

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Sen & Sonja <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 12 Apr 2008 at 8:24, David Friedman wrote:
>
> > What about quoting from the Writings?  Do you un-capitalize letters?
> > Is that allowable?
>
> It is not allowable, by academic standards. If one quotes from
> someone's translation, it must be quoted as printed, or each change
> must be footnoted. If you italicise some words to draw attention to
> the ones you are going to discuss, you put in the attribution (my
> emphasis) or (emphasis added). If a translation reads "the One whom"
> and this capitalisation seems incorrect, it would be cited as "the
> [o]ne whom..." In short, you cannot change anything in a citation
> without warning the readers that something has been changed. This is
> a matter of academic standards, not Bahai rules
>
> If quoting Persian or Arabic, there are no capital letters. There is
> often punctuation added to typeset versions of texts, and the same
> applies as above.
>
> Sen
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Can/will someone transliterate a Passage into Arabic for me?

[Matt Haase]

Ok,

But I have a quick question. Is *Promulgation of Universal Peace* translated
*into* Arabic, as it is in many other languages? I don't mind if PUP wasn't
*originally* written in Arabic. I just want to learn that passage in Arabic,
kind of like someone would want to learn a Prayer/Passage in Russian,
Spanish, or French, etc.

peace,


On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:32 AM, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Matthew,
>
> If it is in PUP it is likely the prayer is in Persian rather than
> Arabic. Unforuntately we don't have all the original transepts for the
> talks contained in PUP. Perhaps Khazeh can tell us if this prayer can
> be found elsewhere.
>
> warmest, Susan
>
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 10:39 PM, swords-a-flashin'
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Peace,
> >
> > There is a Passage or Prayer from 'Abdu'l-Baha that I want to memorize
> in Arabic. I think it is from the Promulgation of Universal Peace, and has a
> line in there that says something like "Consider no one as rejected"
> >
> > Is there any Arabic reading/speaking people here, or does anyone know
> someone who could transliterate the Arabic with English phoenetics for me,
> so I can learn how to memorize it? I can read some Arabic script, but I have
> trouble pronouncing words without transliteration to help me out.
> >
> > This is the Passage in question:
> >
> > "But some souls are weak; we must endeavor to strengthen them. Some are
> ignorant, uninformed of the bounties of God; we must strive to make them
> knowing. Some are ailing; we must seek to restore them to health. Some are
> immature as children; they must be trained and assisted to attain maturity.
> We nurse the sick in tenderness and the kindly spirit of love; we do not
> despise them because they are ill. Therefore, we must exercise extreme
> patience, sympathy and love toward all mankind, considering no soul as
> rejected. If we look upon a soul as rejected, we have disobeyed the
> teachings of God. God is loving to all. Shall we be unjust or unkind to
> anyone? Is this allowable in the sight of God? God provides for all. Is it
> befitting for us to prevent the flow of His merciful provisions for mankind?
> God has created all in His image and likeness. Shall we manifest hatred for
> His creatures and servants? This would be contrary to the will of God and
> according to the will of Satan, by which we mean the natural inclinations of
> the lower nature. This lower nature in man is symbolized as Satan -- the
> evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside."
> >
> >  (Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 286)
> >
> > peace,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
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Re: Can/will someone transliterate a Passage into Arabic for me?

[Matt Haase]

I'm sorry I mentioned that it was partly a Prayer. I don't know why I wrote
that.

This is the passage in question,


*"But some souls are weak; we must endeavor to strengthen them. Some are
ignorant, uninformed of the bounties of God; we must strive to make them
knowing. Some are ailing; we must seek to restore them to health. Some are
immature as children; they must be trained and assisted to attain maturity.
We nurse the sick in tenderness and the kindly spirit of love; we do not
despise them because they are ill. Therefore, we must exercise extreme
patience, sympathy and love toward all mankind, considering no soul as
rejected. If we look upon a soul as rejected, we have disobeyed the
teachings of God. God is loving to all. Shall we be unjust or unkind to
anyone? Is this allowable in the sight of God? God provides for all. Is it
befitting for us to prevent the flow of His merciful provisions for mankind?
God has created all in His image and likeness. Shall we manifest hatred for
His creatures and servants? This would be contrary to the will of God and
according to the will of Satan, by which we mean the natural inclinations of
the lower nature. This lower nature in man is symbolized as Satan -- the
evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside."*

* (Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 286)*
**
I want to learn how to recite this passage in Arabic, if it has been
translated into Arabic. I can't pronounce Arabic words well, without
transliteration. So, I was hoping someone could transliterate the Arabic
sounds into English phoenetics. I also insinuated that this book has been
translated into many different languages. I meant to write that the Writings
in general have been translated into many different languages. I've been
having a bad day with mis-writing and speaking things.

peace,

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 2:11 AM, Khazeh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
> Dear matt and  susan
> I will try to find what you are looking for
> Is it a prayer or is it a passage in pup
> That talk in pup is mentioned in zarqani's account of the travels and
> talks
> of the Master [badaayiul athaar] recently summarized in english as
> mahmud's
> diary.
> But the text the full text is not in zarqani.
> If I knew which prayer you are looking for I could possibly help
>
> But there is no prayer in the passage or talk you excerpt from
>
>
> 27 August 19123
>   Talk at Metaphysical Club
> Boston, Massachusetts
>Notes by Edna McKinney
> Upon the faces of those present I behold the expression of
> thoughtfulness and wisdom; therefore, I shall discourse upon a subject
> involving one of the divine questions, a question of religious and
> metaphysical importance - namely, the progressive and perpetual motion of
> elemental atoms throughout the various degrees of phenomena and the
> kingdoms
> of existence.  It will be demonstrated and become evident that the origin
> and outcome of phenomena are identical and that there is an essential
> oneness in all existing things.  This is a subtle principle appertaining
> to
> divine philosophy and requiring close analysis and attention.
> The elemental atoms which constitute all phenomenal existence and
> being
> in this illimitable universe are in perpetual motion, undergoing
> continuous
> degrees of progression.  For instance, let us conceive of an atom in the
> mineral kingdom progressing upward to the kingdom of the vegetable by
> entering into the composition and fibre of a tree or plant.  From thence
> it
> is assimilated and transferred into the kingdom of the animal and finally,
> by the law and process of composition, becomes a part of the body of man.
> That is to say, it has traversed the intermediate degrees and stations of
> phenomenal existence, entering into the composition of various organisms
> in
> its journey.  This motion or transference is progressive and perpetual,
> for
> after disintegration of the human body into which it has entered, it
> returns
> to the mineral kingdom whence it came and will continue to traverse the
> kingdoms of phenomena as before.  This is an illustration designed to show
> that the constituent elemental atoms of phenomena undergo progressive
> transference and motion throughout the material kingdoms.
> In its ceaseless progression and journeyings the atom becomes imbued
> with the virtues and powers of each degree or kingdom it traverses.  In
> the
> degree of the mineral it possessed mineral affinities; in the kingdom of
> the
> vegetable it manifested the augmentative virtue or power of growth; in the
> animal organism it reflected the intelligence of that degree; and in the
> kingdom of man it was qualified with human attributes or virtues.
> Furthermore, the forms and organisms of phenomenal being and existence
> in each of the kingdoms of the universe are myriad and numberless.  The
> vegetable

Re: The first sixteen bishops

[Matt Haase]

Christianity, Islam, and the Baha'i Faith all state that Jesus abrogated
some laws from the Torah, but when I read the Gospels it doesn't seem like
he did much of that. There is the instance of healing on sabbath, and a few
other necessary exceptions to the rule. But they were just that; exceptions,
not absolute abrogations. I think Jesus's famous saying "*The sabbath was
made for man, not man for the sabbath*" was to teach a lesson of moderation,
but not of total abrogation. Likewise, his other saying "I* have not come to
destroy the law, but to fulfill it*" does not mean that he supported every
single 613 laws, including some of the more severe punishments, at least not
in their literal and ahistorical implementation. After all, he convinced the
townspeople not to stone the woman to death. I know what all three religions
say about it, but I'm just expressing how I felt when I read the Gospels.

I also read in a book that the idea that all of the Jews at the time of
Jesus were "literalists" and wanted to implement all of the laws of the
Torah without looking into historical context and having no sense of
jurisprudence, is erroneous. It said that the Pharisees were actually quite
the intellectuals, and it was the Sadduces who were the literalists, the
"Wahabbis" of Judaism, if you will.

So it seems to me that the reason why Jesus was so hard on the Pharisees,
and not the Sadduces, was because they were so arrogant and elitist in their
knowledge. And their knowledge became a veil to see and appreciate the
universal truths Jesus was teaching the common people. Just my two cents,
and a $1 dollar cheeseburger.

Peace,

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Sen & Sonja <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The immediate source of WOB p 57 is Gibbon, Decline and Fall, chapter
> XV. The reason for the similarity with other authors is that both
> Gibbon and many other writers are quoting Eusebius. Here's Gibbon's
> version, the section used by Shoghi Effendi is towards the end:
>
>
> "Chapter XV: Progress Of The Christian Religion. -- Part II.
>
> The enfranchisement of the church from the bonds of the synagogue was
> a work, however, of some time and of some difficulty. The Jewish
> converts, who acknowledged Jesus in the character of the Messiah
> foretold by their ancient oracles, respected him as a prophetic
> teacher of virtue and religion; but they obstinately adhered to the
> ceremonies of their ancestors, and were desirous of imposing them on
> the Gentiles, who continually augmented the number of believers.
> These Judaizing Christians seem to have argued with some degree of
> plausibility from the divine origin of the Mosaic law, and from the
> immutable perfections of its great Author. They affirmed,that if the
> Being, who is the same through all eternity, had designed to abolish
> those sacred rites which had served to distinguish his chosen people,
> the repeal of them would have been no less clear and solemn than
> their first promulgation: that, instead of those frequent
> declarations, which either suppose or assert the perpetuity of the
> Mosaic religion, it would have been represented as a provisionary
> scheme intended to last only to the coming of the Messiah, who should
> instruct mankind in a more perfect mode of faith and of worship: that
> the Messiah himself, and his disciples who conversed with him on
> earth, instead of authorizing by their example the most minute
> observances of the Mosaic law, would have published to the world the
> abolition of those useless and obsolete ceremonies, without suffering
> Christianity to remain during so many years obscurely confounded
> among the sects of the Jewish church. Arguments like these appear to
> have been used in the defence of the expiring cause of the Mosaic
> law; but the industry of our learned divines has abundantly explained
> the ambiguous language of the Old Testament, and the ambiguous
> conduct of the apostolic teachers. It was proper gradually to unfold
> the system of the gospel, and to pronounce, with the utmost caution
> and tenderness, a sentence of condemnation so repugnant to the
> inclination and prejudices of the believing Jews.
>
> The history of the church of Jerusalem affords a lively proof of the
> necessity of those precautions, and of the deep impression which the
> Jewish religion had made on the minds of its sectaries. **The first
> fifteen bishops of Jerusalem were all circumcised Jews; and the
> congregation over which they presided united the law of Moses with
> the doctrine of Christ. It was natural that the primitive tradition
> of a church which was founded only forty days after the death of
> Christ, and was governed almost as many years under the immediate
> inspection of his apostle, should be received as the standard of
> orthodoxy. The distant churches very frequently appealed to the
> authority of their venerable Parent, and relieved her distresses by a
> liberal contribution of alms. ..."
>
> Gibbon goes on to sp

Re: The first sixteen bishops

[Matt Haase]

I don't think it is required by the Shariah, either. I think it is 'Sunnah'
to grow a beard, but not 'Shariah'. My separating two actually complicates
things, but the Taliban forbidding men to cut their beards is not what a
'true Islamic state' would do. Anyway, I hope I didn't veer off too much
from the original subject, which was early Christians who were observing
Jewish practices.




On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Christians actually
> > did maintain a high level of Torah obsevance (so they would have
> > "looked" alot like Muslims, following a similar dietary code, making
> > pilgrimages to a holy city, praying at certain times of the day, males
> > growing beards, etc.) while the Pauline Christians are actuually
> > heretical.
>
> Dear Gilberto,
>
> Growing beards is not actually part of the Torah and my understanding
> is that it really isn't something required according to the Shariah
> either. There is certainly nothing in the Qur'an about this. It is
> just one of those things Muslims do because the Prophet did.
>
> warmest, Susan
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
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> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
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Re: The first sixteen bishops

[Matt Haase]

Dear Gilberto,

I wasn't disagreeing with you, because I was addressing Susan or Sen at the
time.

Peace,
On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Gilberto Simpson <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Matt Haase <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > I don't think it is required by the Shariah, either.
>
> Then we should just agree to disagree.
>
> I think it is 'Sunnah'
> > to grow a beard, but not 'Shariah'. My separating two actually
> complicates
> > things, but the Taliban forbidding men to cut their beards is not what a
> > 'true Islamic state' would do.
>
> I'm going to leave that alone.
>
> Anyway, I hope I didn't veer off too much
> > from the original subject, which was early Christians who were observing
> > Jewish practices.
> >
> >
>
> Yes, I agree.
>
> -Gilberto
>
>
>
>
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Re: Transliterating the Short Obligatory Prayer from Arabic.

[Matt Haase]

Thank you very much

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 1:43 PM, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ashadu Ya IlAhi bi Annaka khAlaqtani li-irfAnnika wa 'ibAdatika
> Ashadu fi hadA  Al-hina bi-ajzy wa qawwatika wa da'fy wa AqtidArika
> wa faqry wa qanA'ika
> LA-illA-ha illA Anta Al-muhaymin, Al-qayyUm
>
>
>
>
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Re: Transliterating the Short Obligatory Prayer from Arabic.

[Matt Haase]

Thank you so much

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Khazeh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>


 
 
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Re: Neoscholasticism/Perennial Philosophy

[Matt Haase]

Dear Mark,

I'm unsure what there is to disagree with? Don't oak trees, dogs, and horses
exist? Or does perennial philosophy suggest that the "essences" of oak
trees, dogs, and horses exist outside physical perspective? This is a bit
over my head, so I am having a little difficulty understanding.

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 2:52 AM, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Hi, folks:
>
> Apologies for the rather long posting.
>
> I thought I would raise a subject based on a rather interesting book I have
> been reading. The title is, _Understanding Our Being: An Introduction to
> Speculative Philosophy in the Perennial Tradition_. It was written by John
> W. Carlson, who is professor and chair of the department of philosophy at
> Creighton University. Here is his website, where he has two other short
> books which can be downloaded for free as PDF files:
>
> http://puffin.creighton.edu/phil/Carlson/
>
> About 10 years ago, I would have embraced the content of this book, and the
> author's overall perspective, with almost no reservations. Now, I find his
> entire premise to be triumphalistic, purely apologetic, and hardly worth the
> time he put into it. Nonetheless, inasmuch as the book has demonstrated to
> me how much my own views have changed, I enjoyed reading it.
>
> For those who are unfamiliar with the idea of the perennial philosophy (or
> philosophia perennis), it is a term which was coined in the 16th century by
> the Roman Catholic counter-Reformationist, Agostino Steuco. He used it to
> refer to medieval Roman Catholic scholasticism and especially to the
> neo-Augustinian and neo-Aristotelian theology and philosophy of Thomas
> Aquinas and, in addition, to the views of Duns Scotus (definitely not
> William of Ockham). Briefly, Steuco triumphalistically argued that
> scholasticism, mostly Thomism, represented a perennial philosophy, which has
> been expressed in many cultures (Christian and otherwise), and found its
> fullest expression in the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.
>
> There have since been other usages of the term "perennial philosophy,"
> which has extended the term outside of Roman Catholicism, especially in Rene
> Guenon's traditionalist esotericism and in various ideas inspired by Aldous
> Huxley's book, _The Perennial Philosophy_. However, the most enduring usage
> of the term has been within Roman Catholicism, and several recent Popes have
> espoused the perennial philosophy, now usually identified with the
> neoscholastic movement (really neothomism), a scholastic revivalist movement
> inside that church.
>
> To summarize, in its most basic usage, the Roman Catholic version of the
> perennial philosophy is neoscholasticism or neothomism. Among its main
> assumptions is the idea that God creates *real* categories (like species)
> which can be observed, discussed, and evaluated. Oak trees, dogs, and horses
> are essences which exist and can be seen in particular instances of those
> essences (specific oak trees, dogs, and horses). However, to the
> neoscholastics, they are real essences, not merely nominal (verbal)
> conventions.
>
> As I said, I disagree almost thoroughly with neoscholasticism and the
> perennial philosophy, but I found Carlson's book to be fascinating.
>
> --
> Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.  *  http://www.markfoster.net
> "... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
> basic fault lines today are not between people with different
> beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
> element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
> a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.  *  http://www.markfoster.net
> "... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
> basic fault lines today are not between people with different
> beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
> element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
> a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
> 
 
 
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is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be 
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Re: Neoscholasticism/Perennial Philosophy

[Matt Haase]

Dear Ian,

I would like to read that paper.

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Ian Kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> For those who are interested, I can send you the whole or parts of my paper
> "Some Answered Questions - A Philosophical Perspective" (83 pages) given at
> Irfan Colloquium at Bosch which shows that the philosophy embedded in SAQ
> harmonises well with neo-scholasticism, or as I call it, the Athenian
> tradition in philosophy.
>
> This is especially true vis-à-vis the ontological reality of categories and
> species. SAQ is strongly anti-nominalist.
>
> BTW, people should be aware that not all neo-thomists or neo-scholastics
> are
> Catholics.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Ian Kluge
>
> 
 
 
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is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be 
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-Original Message-
 

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark A. Foster
> Sent: June 19, 2008 11:52 PM
> To: Baha'i Studies
> Subject: Neoscholasticism/Perennial Philosophy
>
> Hi, folks:
>
> Apologies for the rather long posting.
>
> I thought I would raise a subject based on a rather interesting book I
> have been reading. The title is, _Understanding Our Being: An
> Introduction to Speculative Philosophy in the Perennial Tradition_. It
> was written by John W. Carlson, who is professor and chair of the
> department of philosophy at Creighton University. Here is his website,
> where he has two other short books which can be downloaded for free as
> PDF files:
>
> http://puffin.creighton.edu/phil/Carlson/
>
> About 10 years ago, I would have embraced the content of this book, and
> the author's overall perspective, with almost no reservations. Now, I
> find his entire premise to be triumphalistic, purely apologetic, and
> hardly worth the time he put into it. Nonetheless, inasmuch as the book
> has demonstrated to me how much my own views have changed, I enjoyed
> reading it.
>
> For those who are unfamiliar with the idea of the perennial philosophy
> (or philosophia perennis), it is a term which was coined in the 16th
> century by the Roman Catholic counter-Reformationist, Agostino Steuco.
> He used it to refer to medieval Roman Catholic scholasticism and
> especially to the neo-Augustinian and neo-Aristotelian theology and
> philosophy of Thomas Aquinas and, in addition, to the views of Duns
> Scotus (definitely not William of Ockham). Briefly, Steuco
> triumphalistically argued that scholasticism, mostly Thomism,
> represented a perennial philosophy, which has been expressed in many
> cultures (Christian and otherwise), and found its fullest expression in
> the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.
>
> There have since been other usages of the term "perennial philosophy,"
> which has extended the term outside of Roman Catholicism, especially in
> Rene Guenon's traditionalist esotericism and in various ideas inspired
> by Aldous Huxley's book, _The Perennial Philosophy_. However, the most
> enduring usage of the term has been within Roman Catholicism, and
> several recent Popes have espoused the perennial philosophy, now usually
> identified with the neoscholastic movement (really neothomism), a
> scholastic revivalist movement inside that church.
>
> To summarize, in its most basic usage, the Roman Catholic version of the
> perennial philosophy is neoscholasticism or neothomism. Among its main
> assumptions is the idea that God creates *real* categories (like
> species) which can be observed, discussed, and evaluated. Oak trees,
> dogs, and horses are essences which exist and can be seen in particular
> instances of those essences (specific oak trees, dogs, and horses).
> However, to the neoscholastics, they are real essences, not merely
> nominal (verbal) conventions.
>
> As I said, I disagree almost thoroughly with neoscholasticism and the
> perennial philosophy, but I found Carlson's book to be fascinating.
>
> --
> Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.  *  http://www.markfoster.net
> "... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
> basic fault lines today are not between people with different
> beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
> element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
> a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.  *  http://www.markfoster.net
> "... 

Re: Apologies for the Off-topic Posting

[Matt Haase]

I'll say some prayers. I hope everything will turn out ok.

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Hi, folks:
>
> Apologies for the off-topic posting. However, I just spoke with my sister,
> and it appears that my father, Harold Foster, may be dying of an persistent
> pneumonia.
>
> He was just in the hospital, but they sent him home a few days ago. He
> lives in an assisted living facility. They are, it seems, doing all they
> can.
>
> --
> Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.  *  http://www.markfoster.net
> "... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
> basic fault lines today are not between people with different
> beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
> element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
> a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist
>
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
> 
 
 
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Re: Neoscholasticism/Perennial Philosophy

[Matt Haase]

Dear Gilberto,

I'm not sure if it is about Ali-Muhammad (the Bab') VS. Ibn 'Arabi, or about
Shi'a VS. Sunni. After studying the writings of Baha'u'llah in regards to
the issues that Muslims bring up about theological matters, the more I am
convinced that both the Bab' and Baha'u'llah were stern monotheists. Ibn
Arabi's concept of emanation ends with the whole universe being God Himself,
which is the basis of monism, which in my study and reading the Qur'an does
not advocate. God is the "First Cause" of existence, and His Essence begins
to permeate all things throughout time, until every being, every person,
every life, every atom, every thing in existence is not only a spiritual
"manifestation" of God's Attributes, but is a "part" (if only a tiny) of
God's actual Essence itself. As far as I know, Baha'u'llah and the Bab' said
"no" to that proposition and offered instead the idea that everything in the
universe is a "manifestation" of God's "Attributes", which is different in
some degree to His Essence. But "even though" this may seem like only a
metaphorical re-interpretation of those old monist doctrines, the analogy of
the sun and the mirror was given. Even though the sun is not physically in
the mirror, you can still feel the heat of the sun through the mirror, which
could sort of open the door back to monism, lol! I just shot myself in the
foot.




On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 1:14 AM, Gilberto Simpson <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'm not sure if anyone here would know but is this really a Bab vs.
> Ibn Arabi thing or a Sunni vs. Shia thing? I ask because it reminds me
>  of what I've read about respective Sunni/Shia views about the
> uncreatedness of the Quran and God's attributes. (i.e. Is God's speech
> eternal and/or distinct from Allah?)
>
> -Gilberto
>
> On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Mazda Karimi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>  Incidentally, the Bab was critical of Ibn Arabi's concept of A'yan
> > Thabita (which proposes the preexistence of the forms in the divine
> > Essence). He insists that the idea that there is an intermediary world of
> > A'yan between God and His creation is shirk.
> > Best Regards
> > Mazda
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
> >
> >
> > 
 
 
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Re: Neoscholasticism/Perennial Philosophy

[Matt Haase]

Dear Gilberto,

Just so you know, I wasn't accusing Ibn Arabi' of shirk (associating
partners with God), or that Baha'is were accusing Muslims of shirk. As for a
clear definition of shirk from a Baha'i perspective, I don't know of any. I
haven't found one, at least.

Peace,

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 5:22 AM, Gilberto Simpson <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Yeah, I generally think that Ibn Arabi is pretty technical and
> wouldn't want to go out on a limb like that about his teachings. But I
> would tend to view him sympathetically.A broad consensus holds him is
> a Muslim saint so I would be really really really reluctant to just
> accuse him of shirk so easily. The typical encyclopedia article about
> him might mention his doctrine of wahdat al-wujud and point out that
> it is often *confused* with pantheism but is actually distinct.I would
> also say that Bahais accusing Muslims of shirk just sounds really
> bizzare to me, to the point of being almost incoherent. So maybe a
> clear Bahai definition of "shirk" might be useful.
>
> -G
>
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 3:59 AM, Matt Haase <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Dear Gilberto,
> >
> > I'm not sure if it is about Ali-Muhammad (the Bab') VS. Ibn 'Arabi, or
> about
> > Shi'a VS. Sunni. After studying the writings of Baha'u'llah in regards to
> > the issues that Muslims bring up about theological matters, the more I am
> > convinced that both the Bab' and Baha'u'llah were stern monotheists. Ibn
> > Arabi's concept of emanation ends with the whole universe being God
> Himself,
> > which is the basis of monism, which in my study and reading the Qur'an
> does
> > not advocate. God is the "First Cause" of existence, and His Essence
> begins
> > to permeate all things throughout time, until every being, every person,
> > every life, every atom, every thing in existence is not only a spiritual
> > "manifestation" of God's Attributes, but is a "part" (if only a tiny) of
> > God's actual Essence itself. As far as I know, Baha'u'llah and the Bab'
> said
> > "no" to that proposition and offered instead the idea that everything in
> the
> > universe is a "manifestation" of God's "Attributes", which is different
> in
> > some degree to His Essence. But "even though" this may seem like only a
> > metaphorical re-interpretation of those old monist doctrines, the analogy
> of
> > the sun and the mirror was given. Even though the sun is not physically
> in
> > the mirror, you can still feel the heat of the sun through the mirror,
> which
> > could sort of open the door back to monism, lol! I just shot myself in
> the
> > foot.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 1:14 AM, Gilberto Simpson
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm not sure if anyone here would know but is this really a Bab vs.
> >> Ibn Arabi thing or a Sunni vs. Shia thing? I ask because it reminds me
> >>  of what I've read about respective Sunni/Shia views about the
> >> uncreatedness of the Quran and God's attributes. (i.e. Is God's speech
> >> eternal and/or distinct from Allah?)
> >>
> >> -Gilberto
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Mazda Karimi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> wrote:
> >>  Incidentally, the Bab was critical of Ibn Arabi's concept of A'yan
> >> > Thabita (which proposes the preexistence of the forms in the divine
> >> > Essence). He insists that the idea that there is an intermediary world
> >> > of
> >> > A'yan between God and His creation is shirk.
> >> > Best Regards
> >> > Mazda
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> >> > ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC")
> and is
> >> > intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
> entity
> >> > named above. The information may be protected by federal and state
> privacy
> >> > and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this
> message is
> >> > not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
> dissemination,
> >> > distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you
> have
> >> > received this e-mai

Re: Neoscholasticism/Perennial Philosophy

[Matt Haase]

"Analysis shows that 'Abdu'l-Bahá strictly confines his remarks (*Commentary
on the Islamic Tradition: 'I Was a Hidden treasure,*')  to the
*subjective*criteria for truth: given their own presuppositions and
criteria, the
advocates of each viewpoint reason correctly and attain a conclusion that is
consistent with their spiritual conditions as "knowers." In other words,
'Abdu'l-Bahá's argument is *subjectively* epistemological – concerned with
the "knowers" and not with what is objectively known and the quality of
their knowledge, with the perceiver and not with the perceived. He is not
talking about what actually is the case but rather about what the viewer *
thinks* is the case because of his presuppositions, nature and spiritual
condition"

I know this is a short comment, but what you just described reminds me of
the verse of the Qur'an, *"Revile not those unto whom they pray beside Allah
lest they wrongfully revile Allah through ignorance. Thus unto every nation
have We made their deed seem fair."* -6:108

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Ian Kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Dear Mazda,
>
>
>
> RE: "avoiding the complexities of the subject, reframing it to suit the
> presuppositions of his audience, and advancing it in a very meaningful way."
>
>
>
> As for reaching western audiences, as I said before, this would have been a
> mistake since Aristotle and the metaphysics of the entire Athenian tradition
> had been out of favor for centuries in Europe. If communicating with the
> audience had been his aim, he would have been better to use Hegel who was
> widely known and taught in England, the U.S. and of course, Germany and hard
> large followings in all three.  (Even John Dewey started as a committed
> American Hegelian.) In France Hegelianism did not take off until the earlier
> 20th C. but other, non-Athenian philosophers like Bergson and Blondel were
> in the forefront of public awareness. Americans, of course, would also have
> been familiar with Emerson (who has a strong Hegelian streak) and James.
>
>
>
> Since the history of philosophy shows that choosing the Athenian tradition
> to communicate with western audiences would have been a serious mistake –
> and for that reason I do not think it is the likely reason Abdu'l-Baha makes
> use of this tradition simply as a supposed communicative device.
>
>
>
> IMO, he was setting out the framework in which to develop a philosophical
> world-view. Of course, this world-view requires further development, but, as
> the work of Whitehead or Marcel illustrate, as well as Brian Ellis's
> "Scientific Essentialism" (U of Cambridge, 2001), not to mention the wide
> varieties of neo-Thomism, the Athenian tradition is capable of highly
> diverse development.  Dismissing it as 'static' is simplistic.
>
>
>
> If the re-framing is so radical that it misrepresents one's ideas, then in
> fact it does become misleading, and does not educate but miseducate. If,
> one's view is that there are no essences but at the same time consistently
> one provides explanations in terms of essences, - without ever explicitly
> indicating that essences are not real – then one is either a very poor
> and/or very confused teacher, or one has been misunderstood by others. I
> adopt the latter option.
>
>
>
> RE the Athenian tradition, I note that Mulla Sadra is in agreement with
> Thomas Aquinas the existence is the prime category of metaphysics. This is
> no small potato.
>
>
>
> Moreover, when I re-read "The Metaphysics" by Mulla Sadra, - translated by
> Parviz Morewedge- I noted that he is not necessarily outside the Athenian
> tradition at all points. Whether he is actually able to be consistently
> non-essentialist is, IMO, doubtful. The distinction between "mental
> existence" and "the existence of fully determined concrete entities external
> to the mind" is certainly essentialist, as is the difference between
> internal and external. People should remember that even Sartre, the most
> programmatically anti-essentialist philosopher of our time, could not
> maintain that position consistently. Mulla Sadra's idea that change is an
> entity in itself, of course, has its own serious difficulties.
>
>
>
> RE: "I have noticed how there he tends to attribute the difference in the
> approaches to the stations of the great thinkers who fostered each one of
> them, rather than anything inherent in the nature of physical reality. And I
> do not think that Abd'ul-Baha sees his own account of the concept of essence
> in SAQ as in any special way more "objective" than those he discusses Kuntu
> Kanz."
>
>
>
> In my paper "Relativism and the Bahai Writings" (forthcoming publication by
> Irfan) I deal with that issue via Dr. Momen's paper on relativism where he
> tries to reconcile monism and dualist views on the basis of the station of
> the thinker. It seems to me you are adopting a similar position. For sake of
> brevity, I have provided part of my conclusion about this reading of the
> 

Re: translation request

[Matt Haase]

HI rather dislike the divisiveness tone of whatever speech or letter
this comes from. What I gather from it is Baha'i=Good in character, and
non-Baha'i= Bad in character. I think I might know what this comes from.
Someone played me an audio of a sermon by a Shi'a Imam from Iran about this
very subject. Basically he goes on and on about how virtious the Baha'is
are, and now non-virtious the Shi'as are. And then he says that this is a
tactic on the part of the Baha'is because they are not allowed to openly
teach their faith in words, and the Shi'as should be wary of this
virtiousness of the Baha'is. I, for one, don't like the tone of the entire
thing. I think it is wrong to generalize any group of people as "good in
character" or "bad in character", no matter what agenda you're aiming to
accomplish.

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 11:12 PM, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EG-IMOD0m0&feature=related
>
>
>
> A friend offers this translation, but is it dependable? I know he is not to
> any degree fluent, so he is passing along someone else's translation of the
> speech. I will also check out some other sources as well.
>
> "Open your eyes.
> The Baha'is are causing a stir.
> Can you see what they have done?
> Do you know this??
>
> Can you see how their actions coincide with their teachings, and this is
> their BEST way of teaching their faith!
> Are you aware of this? Are you?
>
> A Baha'i girl, in a school of 800 girls, has studied to such a degree and
> carries herself in such a way that everyone is amazed.
> Are you aware of this?!
>
> She is so dignified that anyone who doesn't know her, thinks that she is
> probably the daughter of an Ayatollah… but she's a Baha'i!
>
> Look at how a Baha'i girl walks, and look at how a Shia Muslim girl walks!
> Oh, oh, oh! If I go on and on, you guys will lose hope! I should just say,
> "Hey guys, I will see you in hell tomorrow." Honestly.
>
> Look at what they're doing. I don't want to make you guys unhopeful --- I
> want to wake you up!
> Either you (Mullahs) know how to do something or not. If not, then get lost
> and let other [Muslims] do their job.
> As soon as one of the Mullahs finally manage to do something positive,
> another one of you do something again.
>
> I will say this and if anyone doesn't like what I'm saying, they don't have
> to come here tomorrow evening
>
> The Baha'is faith is like a wolf to us and our efforts.
> I will give a prize to the first person who shows me a Baha'i or Jew who is
> a drug addict.
> You don't see a single Baha'i who is a drug addict.
> You don't see a single Baha'i whose behaviour is bad, who grabs someone by
> the collar to swear at them.
>
> When tested on the Quran at school, a Baha'i would receive 20/20 and a
> Shiah Muslim would get 2/20.
> (Mind you, we only gave them a score of 2 because we know the student's
> dad). I mean, the dad wouldn't be satisfied otherwise and would get angry.
>
> I myself had a Baha'i student, a Jewish student, and a Christian student.
> I swear to ((the Mullah mentions a few holy places)) that I would give
> 20/20 to a Baha'i for their personality and behaviour ...because I can't
> give them 30!
> In class, a Baha'i student wouldn't have any quarrels with anyone, would
> never swear at anyone; never did he ever stir up the class, (shouts) - VERY
> TIDY APPEARANCE! …. But what about a Shiah?! Nothing. Search the school. "
>
>
>
>
>  The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>   Military SF technothriller, *Sword of the Dajjal*, e-book from
> http://www.booksforabuck.com/sfpages/sf_07/sword_dajjal.html
> http://www.fictionwise.com/eBooks/eBook47261.htm?cached (later in the year
> in print)
> Erotic paranormal thriller *Jars of Doom*, out from Blu Phi'er 2008.
> I BLog!: http://cscottsaylorsbooks.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
> 
 
 
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Re: Astrotheology

[Matt Haase]

Dear Mark,

I never knew there was a name for that kind of interpretation. I partly
agree/disagree with that way of interpreting scriptures. On the one hand, I
am not a literalist and I don't believe in a physical paradise, hell, etc.
But on the other hand, I can sympathize with fundamentalists who get
concerned that if we interpret everything allegorically or mythically, we
have nothing but 'well-meaning fiction'. I watched the film in question
about 8 months ago, and I especially liked the part you have posted. It
can't be denied that all of these similarities do exist between Horus,
Mithras, Jesus, Dionysous, etc.


On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 8:39 PM, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> We recently had a discussion on the Neoplatonic/Aristotelian language game
> (IMO) in the Baha'i texts. I wanted to raise the issue of the language game
> in texts of the Tanakh and the New Testament.
>
> A few years ago, I came across a perspective called, astrotheology. I had
> extended discussions with several people who hold to this perspective online
> and later reviewed some materials which one of them recommended to me.
>
> The premise of astrotheology is that the events reported in the Tanakh and,
> especially, the New Testament never took place. Instead, they are simple
> repetitions of a common mythos in the ancient world: a being who is born of
> a virgin and then resurrected.
>
> This video is long, but I would strongly recommend it:
>
> http://zeitgeistmovie.com/
>
> Clearly, I do not accept the premise of the film, which is that Jesus never
> lived, and the Gospels are simply a restatement of a frequently retold
> narrative. Nonetheless, I have wondered whether this "astrotheology" might
> not be, in part, the context within which the sacred histories of the Gospel
> were presented.
>
> --
> Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.  *  http://www.markfoster.net
> "... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
> basic fault lines today are not between people with different
> beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
> element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
> a pretnse of certitude." — Peter L.Berger, sociologist
>
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
> 
 
 
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Re: Astrotheology

[Matt Haase]

>
> Each of these, except for the first (narrative theology), is making
> presuppositions about the substantive content of the text. What I am saying
> is that the Gospels can be approached in much the same way as Nabil/Shoghi
> Effendi prepared Nabil's Narrative, i.e., not as modern scientific history
> but as a morality play or sacred history.


I see. That is how I described the 'Dawnbreakers' to my brother, once. I was
trying to explain it, and eventually said "It's like a much longer version
of the Gospel of John". And we both knew what I meant somehow.


On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 6:42 PM, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Matt Haase wrote:
>
>> I never knew there was a name for that kind of interpretation. I partly
>> agree/disagree with that way of interpreting scriptures. On the one hand, I
>> am not a literalist and I don't believe in a physical paradise, hell, etc.
>> But on the other hand, I can sympathize with fundamentalists who get
>> concerned that if we interpret everything allegorically or mythically, we
>> have nothing but 'well-meaning fiction'. I watched the film in question
>> about 8 months ago, and I especially liked the part you have posted. It
>> can't be denied that all of these similarities do exist between Horus,
>> Mithras, Jesus, Dionysous, etc.
>>
>
> Some writers have argued that Horus et al. are "types" of Christ (like
> Elijah was a type of John the Baptist). However, I don't personally find
> that kind of speculative or metaphysical theology to be appealing.
>
> There are clearly problems with astrotheology. Some writers who accept it
> also buy into an illuminati-type conspiracy "theory." Others use it to
> justify their atheism, agnosticism, etc.
>
> Even so, much of mainstream Christian and Jewish theology, even among some
> conservatives, is moving in the direction of narrative theology. In Judaism,
> it is called postcritical theology; in liberal Christianity, it is
> postliberal theology; and in Christian evangelicalism it is emerging
> theology. Although coming from three different places, all three of these
> narrative theologies have recently been converging.
>
> Obviously, many fundamentalist and conservative evangelical Christians
> object to the allegorization of most of the biblical texts, but there is
> also a difference between narrative theology, fundamentalist theology, and
> metaphysical theology. To grossly simplify: Narrative theology, which is
> what I am referring to, is asking questions like, "What story/history
> (mirror) is being presented by the writer?" Fundamentalists ask, "What
> propositional truths are contained in the text?" Finally, metaphysicians
> ask, "What kinds of inner or spiritual meanings can be deciphered from the
> text?"
>
> Each of these, except for the first (narrative theology), is making
> presuppositions about the substantive content of the text. What I am saying
> is that the Gospels can be approached in much the same way as Nabil/Shoghi
> Effendi prepared Nabil's Narrative, i.e., not as modern scientific history
> but as a morality play or sacred history.
>
> --
> Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.  *  http://www.markfoster.net
> "... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
> basic fault lines today are not between people with different
> beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
> element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
> a pretense of ceitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist
>
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
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Re: Hudson INstitute

[Matt Haase]

You can study a religion for fifty years and not learn the original language
of the scriptures it was written in. A lot of American Christian preachers
have done this. They just read and re-read the Bible in English, and get a
feel for what it is about. Not everyone goes into the academic aspect of
studying a religion.

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Richard H. Gravelly <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> - Original Message -
> From: "Susan Maneck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Susan wrote:
> and so far as I know he
> doesn't know the original languages.
>
> That is rather odd for one who insists that he has studied the religion for
> "forty yeears".
>
> Richard.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
> 
 
 
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Re: Views of the Supernatural

[Matt Haase]

*"1. weak atheism: an absence of belief regarding gods and goddesses (as
among most Buddhists)."*

*"7. weak theism: a position which accepts the intervention of one or more
gods or goddesses, but which does not require theistic explanations of
everything, e.g., biological origins. This view is probably closest to my
own. Thus, I accept evolution, not theistic evolution.*"

That seems to describe my current understanding of how the universe works.
I've been getting out of the habit of praying for something supernatural to
intervene in my life and other human affairs, and just be glad for the good
things that happen and try to cope with the bad things that happen, and work
to change things for the better. If those efforts are rewarded by positive
results, then that is fantastic. But if they are not, then at least I can
say I tried. I won't have to fight the urge to be angry at some god for not
fulfilling my life's mission, nor will I have to feel as if it is time to
get religious because someone threw me a bone. I do, however, accept the
proposition that sometimes supernatural occurrences do happen. But I don't
chalk it up to a theory in which a deity is on the particular 'side' of any
one group of people, and is working 'through' them for Its success in this
world. I guess my current way of viewing spirituality is one in which it is
possible for people to 'align' themselves to be in 'harmony' with the
universe, and that gives people a possibility (not a definite 'yes') to
attract what they want and need into their lives. It is apathetic toward
which 'god' is 'the right god', because every group of people thinks when
they pray to their god, their prayers are answered. So, how is only one
'god' true, when all people claim their prayers are being answered by
separate and conflicting ideologies? That is why I now think that it has
nothing to do with believing in the 'right god', but about aligning one's
self into harmony with the universeOr it's just a coincidence and the
atheists are right. :-)


On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 7:34 PM, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dean Betts wrote:
>
>> Do you think a Baha'i could hold any one of these views?
>>
>>
>
> Hi, Dean:
>
> I think that a Baha'i could, from different standpoints, hold to several of
> those views. For instance, as a social scientist, I adopt the position of
> strong agnosticism. If the existence of God is extended to include His
> kingdom (all things under His dominion), I could also see a type of
> panentheism being compatible with certain Baha'i texts. Then, mineral,
> vegetable, and animal spirits could perhaps be conceived as a kind of
> animism. Generally speaking, I think that, at least to me, weak theism is
> the position most compatible with certain explanations given in the Baha'i
> texts.
>
>  Didn't you leave out montheism?
>>
>>
>
> Theism is basically a synonym for monotheism (unless monotheism is being
> contrasted with polytheism, ditheism, etc.).
>
> --
> Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.  *  http://www.markfoster.net
> "... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
> basic fault lines today are not between people with different
> beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
> element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
> a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist
>
>
>
>
> --
> Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.  *  http://www.markfoster.net
> "... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
> basic fault lines today are not between people with different
> beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
> element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
> a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
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>
> 
 
 
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Re: peaking of realiy and meaning ang geometry

[Matt Haase]

Hmmm, that *is* very interesting. Do you think it possibly reflects the
current trends in Baha'i-thought among American communities. I remember
reading one pamphlet that described Baha'u'llah as the 'Heavenly Father',
which is exclusively referred to G-d in the Old Testament. I digress,
though, because that is not the theme of this thread.

On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 9:54 PM, Benjamin La Framboise <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   Hey, John...
>
> I don't know if you noticed this before, and you can pass the info on to
> whomever it matters, but there is a discrepancy between the two drawings; on
> the 'original' drawing, the "grades in the spiritual kingdom," which are
> infinite in series and progression, at their highest attainable point, touch
> the unknowable, but the finite NEVER becomes the infinite.  In the new
> version, the finite becomes the infinite.  A rather important distinction,
> don't you think?
>
> Yours,
>
> Ben
>
> On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 6:16 PM, John Bromberek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> At 04:53 PM 8/5/2008, I wrote:
>> >I have a copy that I got somewhere back in 1971, but it didn't
>> >have any attribution other than that of having been printed by
>> >Kurtis Kelsey...
>>
>>   I'll have to take that back.  I see, now, that the attribution is within
>> the written introduction to the explanation.  So, the copy I have is also
>> attributed to Lua Getsinger.
>>
>>   The version I have is that scanned by Robert Stauffer, the prettier
>> version at the second listed URL was redrawn by Duane Troxel.
>>
>>   The letter connected to the graphic, written by the Research Dept. (on
>> the Web page) casts some doubt on authenticity of the graphic - as far as
>> having originated with 'Abdu'l-Baha.
>>
>> John B.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: Heaven

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
IMO, the Baha'i Faith doesn't teach this. A lot of people's opinions on what
the Baha'i Faith says, says the Baha'i Faith teaches this. They often use
the reference where 'Abdu'l-Baha says that every kingdom has its own
'spirit', while humanity has a 'rational soul.' Some people jump on this and
say "Animals don't have souls!"



On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 11:34 PM, David Friedman <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> It is upsetting to me that animals do not go to heaven.  It is difficult to
> see heaven as that wonderful if I don't get to see the pets I've had.  Can
> anyone help me on this?
>
> Regards,
> David
>
> --
>
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Re: Baha'i quiz book

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Why don't you just fool around with it, write a rough draft or two, submit
the idea to some publishers to see what they think, and then do what you
want with the idea.

peace

On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 5:40 AM, David Friedman <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I am involved in quizzing and a few days ago I had the idea of writing a
> Baha'i quiz book.  I imagine I could do a good job but I'm doubtful as to
> whether there would be the market.  Obviously it would only be for Baha'i
> book stores but I don't know if a publisher would think there would be much
> interest.  What do you think?
>
> Regards,
> David
>
> --
>
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Re: Shoghi Effendi on astrology

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Those quotations from the Guardian are important, but numerology as per
mysticism has always struck me. Nine is the numerical equivalent of the word
"Baha", and Five is the equivalent of the word "Allah". Put Ninety-Five
together and you get Baha Allah, or "Baha'u'llah." You say
"Allah-u-Abha" Ninety-Five times daily, which is the numerical equivalent to
the "Baha'u'llah."

There are Nine members of the Universal House of Justice, and the Local
Spiritual Assemblies. There has to be a minimum of Five members at one time
to hold a meeting at an LSA. Nine-Five

There are Nineteen day-feasts to symbolize the new Baha'i month, there
were Eighteen letters of the living (1+8=9), including the Bab' to
make Nineteen in total (1+9= 10, 1+0=1). Nineteen is the numerical value of
the word "One".

Baha'u'llah made his announcment to a group of followers that he was the
promised one of the Bab', in 1863. 1+8=9, 9+6= 15, 15+3=18, 1+8=9, or
1+8+6+3=18. 18+9=27, and 2+7 still amounts to 9.

I'm sure there are many more of these interesting things.







On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Don Calkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> On Oct 24, 2008, at 10:10 AM, Sen & Sonja wrote:
>
> I do not know of anything Shoghi Effendi said on the matter
>>
>
> Lights of Guidance
>
> [517] 1746. Astronomy is a Science, Astrology is Not
> Lights of Guidance (149:26, page: [517])
>
> "Astronomy is a science, astrology does not come under the same category,
> but we should be patient with people who believe in it, and gradually wean
> them away from reliance on such things."
> Lights of Guidance (149:27, page: [518])
>
> "Yes, the Guardian considers 'astrology', which is a pseudo-science, as for
> the most part 'non-sensical', as it is mostly made up of superstitious
> beliefs and practices."
> Lights of Guidance (149:28, page: [518])
>
> "We should attach no importance to astrology or horoscopes. No exact
> science is involved, though sometimes some truth seems involved, but the
> percentage is small."
> Lights of Guidance (149:29, page: [518])
>
> "The friends should be encouraged not to waste time on such things as
> astrology etc., which you mention. They cannot be forbidden to do so. The
> exercise of our free will to choose to do the right things is much more
> important."
> Lights of Guidance (149:30, page: [518])
>
> "...it is absolutely essential that the teachings should not be confused
> with the obscure ideas related to numerology and astrology and the like.
> Individuals interested in them are free to believe in and credit such ideas
> and to make any inferences and deductions they desire from them, but under
> no circumstances are they expected to identify them with the principles and
> teachings of the Cause. We must at this stage preserve the purity and
> sanctity of the Baha'i teachings. I will pray that you may be guided [518]
> in your efforts, and may succeed in safeguarding and promoting the interests
> of our beloved Faith."
> Lights of Guidance (149:34, page: [518])
>
> 1752. Neither Numerology nor Astrology Needed by the Believers
> Lights of Guidance (149:34, page: [519])
>
> "There is nothing in the teachings which leads us to believe numerology or
> astrology are needed by the believers to guide them in any way."
> Lights of Guidance (149:35, page: [519])
>
>
> There has been a lot of good research over the last 100 years on astrology,
> and especially in the last 40 years with the availability of computers.  Sun
> sign astrology, using primarily signs and houses as prognosticators has been
> debunked for around 70 years as having no predictive value.  What does
> appear to have some value is the angular separation of the planets and their
> relationship to the horizon and nadir.  E.g., people who have an angular
> separation of the sun and venus of 45 degrees +/- 30 seconds have a very
> high likelihood of being involved in dysfunctional marriage/relationship.
>  John Addey has shown that many occupations  have identifiable significators
> based on Foure analysis.  However as he also noted, the presence of that
> significator does not necessarily mean one will go into a particular field
> or will not be successful in another field; only that if one does go into
> that field that they are likely to be successful.
>
> So one possibility is that astrology, defined as a presumed correlation of
> astronomical phenomenon with human affairs, has the potential to be of value
> in things like occupational counseling, but at the present time there simply
> has not been enough research to justify ifs general use.
>
> Don C
>
> -
> Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in
> nature.
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Non-association with covenant-breakers

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
How many people do you know who hang out with random toddlers? :-)



On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:16 AM, David Friedman <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Dear Susan,
>
> > I presume you mean the children of Covenant breakers? Baha'is are
> > asked to avoid them as well.
>
> What about toddlers?
>
> Regards,
> David
>
>
> --
>
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Re: Prayer and mental illnesses/disorders

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
In my view, a religious person can both pray and find a scientific remedy
for their mental ailments. But, if I were forced to bet, I would choose
science over the "power of prayer." But that's just me.

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 1:45 AM, Mark A. Foster wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> David Friedman wrote:
>
>> I brought this issue up some time back. If I'm not mistaken, it was agreed
>> that mental illnesses/disorders can be cured through prayer. Everything in
>> my experience has been that prayer doesn't work for this. I've got an
>> anxiety disorder and I gave up praying for it a long time ago. It's
>> difficult to imagine the chemical balance in my brain magically correcting
>> itself and me becoming a medical miracle just through prayer. Does anyone
>> know of any Baha'is who have managed to cure themselves through prayer? If
>> anyone here has managed to do so, please say a prayer for me. If God didn't
>> want to answer my prayers then maybe He'll listen to someone else.
>>
> Hi, David:
>
> IMO, there are two issues involved here which are often confused.
> Certainly, God can, if He wills, cure or remedy any condition. Prayer is one
> means of asking for His assistance. However, God's grace is not the same as
> positive thinking. No matter how strongly I may believe God will do
> something, there is no guarantee that He will act according to my wishes.
>
> In Christian Science, in all, or most, of the New Thought churches (Unity,
> Religious Science, Divine Science, etc.), and in the "word of faith"
> movement within pentecostalism, strong belief and God's actions are regarded
> as one and the same. That is no accident, since both New Thought and the
> word of faith movement were, through Emma Curtis Hopkins and others,
> significantly influenced by Christian Science.
>
> There is developing evidence that anxiety disorders, along with many of the
> other conditions categorized in both the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual
> of the American Psychiatric Association and the World Health Organization's
> International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health
> Problems, have significant neurological causation. As an autistic activist
> and self-advocate myself, I frequently find myself in the position of having
> to explain this data.
>
> --
> Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * 25 domains: www.markfoster.net SED:
> www.neurelitism.com
> "... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The basic fault
> lines today are not between people with different beliefs but between people
> who hold these beliefs with an element of uncertainty and people who hold
> these beliefs with a pretense of certitude." — Peter L. Berger, sociologist
>
>
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Re: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Shahram,

Nothing you have written thus far has been proven with any evidence. You
have just made claims, b ut have not provided sources to prove their
validity. Which Baha'is killed by the government were 'corrupt', for
example? Why were they 'corrupt'? Why is it 'disobedient' to the government
to create make-shift 'universities' that don't provide any certification
recognized by the government whatsoever?

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Re: “Violations of the Rights of our Baha’i Coun trymen”

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
It seems like more people are paying attention to the recent happenings than
in 2005 and 2006.

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 6:18 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Thanks, Ahang.
>
> I see a very well-balanced article appeared on a news site for the
> United Arab Emirates regarding the Baha'is in Iran:
>
> http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090223/FOREIGN/667464121/1011/NEWS
>
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Re: Iranian Authorities Destroy Sufi Holy Site In Isfahan

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The more I learn about religious governments and the oppression they impose
upon people, the more I am becoming a secularist who also believes in God.
The two positions might seem contradictory, but not to me at this time.
That's not to say that secular governments can not be oppressive, however.

On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 3:55 PM, firestorm  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> gilberto
>  :-)
>  i offer that the House is the Authorised elucidator and coo of behaviours
> of the corporate body that has accepted that the ground has been transferred
> to the Rightful Owner by Covenant and Contract with the Owner's Agent,
> Baha'u'llah, and that the Agent in Writing left the House as local agent.
>  that the House is "warranted" in Writing to be such agent; unlike,
> frinstance, the Church, holy, catholic and apostolic, which claims such
> authority "unwarranted".
>
> i mostly return to ur initial post and note
> :"there is some wisdom" is incorrectly approximated. there is a >>>lot<<<
> of wisdom :"in thinking about the
> issue in a different sort of way".
>  susan offers an approach: "competing claims to authority."
>  i offer the view that such competition >>within proper bounds<< is
> healthy; but that the reality in the instance you so kindly brought forth is
> boundary violation.
>  the House does not claim to be able to tell the iranian government whether
> a Baha'i or sufi shrine deserves better roads, night lights, or a nearby
> kfc. the iranian govt's positoon appears to be that lawful conduct motivated
> by "ground of the heart" is impermissible on earth controlled by the
> mullahs.
>  the issue then is by what warrant do the mullahs lay claim to authority
> over "ground"?
>
>
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Re: Ya-Ali'u'l-Allah

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Peace be unto you,

To get even more literal, the word 'Ali means "exalted, lofty, etc." So it
could also mean "Oh Exalted, Lofty one of God." But in the context of where
this phrase comes from, I agree with Jamshid that it is probably in
reference to the actual person of 'Ali.



On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 9:54 AM, Larry Marquardt
wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Dear Friends,
>
> Can someone please tell me the English translation of Ya-Ali'u'l-Allah?
>
> Thank you,
> Larry
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Re: Authenticity

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I can't speak for the guardian, but I think the Qur'an was preserved much
more than the Bible. There were many memorizers during the time of the
prophet, and this kept the original wording intact. It was common for people
in that culture to memorize long strands of words, so the people who were
especially good at it were really, really, good at it. They began to write
it down in a script on papyrus, animal hides, peoples bodies, and then it
was compiled into the surahs (chapters) before it was all placed in a single
book. But the text is the same. The Bible went through many more
transitions, and thus the chances of error are larger. That's just my take
on it.


On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Dean Betts  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Why does Shoghi Effendi assert that the Qur'an is more authentic than the
> Bible?
>
>
> ... the Qur'án, which book is more authentic than the Bible, including both
> the New and Old Testaments. The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this
> respect not to be compared with the Qur'án...
>
>  (Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 12)
>
>
>
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Re: Protocol?

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
David,

I have written the Universal House of Justice, to ask why certain people
were disenrolled from the Baha'i community, and the answer was effectively
"we can't provide exact information due to the privacy of the individual
involved". I think that is the best answer a person can receive, because as
Don said it could have been for entirely different reasons than what a given
person might *think*, and the *real *reason may be way too personal for the
UHJ to be running around and telling everyone about it. We may think it was
because of this or that, but it may be something extremely private.



On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Susan Maneck  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> .  Does being disenrolled take away the right to
> > privacy?
>
>
> Dear David,
>
> In the case of previous disenrollments the institutions have stated
> that the publicity these persons gave to those disenrollments took
> away their right to privacy.
>
> warmest, Susan
>
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Re: Protocol?

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
"could it mean that it is a private matter between the House and an
individual and nobody else's anywhere on the face of the earth?"

This is what I'm thinking. I mean, the impetus to make the decision is in
the hands of the Universal House of Justice. And if it is not volunteering
much information, conjecturing with each other that it may have been 'this'
or 'that', or because he/she wrote 'this' as a certain internet posting, or
said 'that' at a gathering once, is really just gossiping about another
human being as far as I can see.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 1:04 PM, firestorm  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> david,
>  :"This must mean that the House would be..."
> must??
>  really?
>  could it mean that it is a private matter between the House and an
> individual and nobody else's anywhere on the face of the earth?
>  could it mean that, as eer so often in the last 1.8 million years of
> using fire to make life easier people use other  peoples' private matters to
> pursue their own agendas??
>  could it be that the Blessed Beauty put para 19 into the Aqdas for a
> Reason?
>  other than various forms of yeast, the only "must" i can think of is that
> people do the right thing or not, as they see.
>
>
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Re: Door to door

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
In some neighborhoods, people like visitors coming over and talking to them.
Their neighbors stop by to spend some time with them, and then they leave.
In other neighborhoods, people are more insular. They don't like people
coming over to talk to them, and the neighbors usually keep to themselves.
The point I am trying to make is that in some places, showing up to
someone's door isn't seen as a slight against humanity as it is in other
places. In my experience, where I come from, every one locks their doors
whenever the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons patrol the neighbor to talk
about their faith to people.

But I know some Baha'is who declared in the 1970's, and said they used to go
door-to-door all the time in the southern states of the U.S., and that
resulted in many declarations into the Baha'i Faith. Some times, people in
the houses would take the initiative to talk to *them*, while they were
walking down the street and asked *them* to come to *their* house. Sometimes
what is inappropriate at one time, becomes appropriate at another.

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Re: What was the point?

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Perhaps this story was illustrating a shift in consciousness in how the
people viewed revelation. Instead of it solely being this idea that God
possesses a human being to say what God wants in a trance-like state,
perhaps there is a human element to it as well. An ability to "tap into" the
God-consciousness if you will. And maybe he wrote too much while in this
state, snapped out of it, and was like "woahthat's way too much", and
pitched it. For example, he could have written instructions in those tablets
on how to achieve physical immortality, use your mind power to control
everything around you, etc.


On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 4:20 AM, Vaughn Sheline  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> Dear David,
>
>
>
> Perhaps now that these Writings were brought into being by the Supreme
> Manifestation, future Manifestations will be able to quote from them.
> Indeed, perhaps the primary intended audience is the future Manifestations,
> or the people in future Dispensations.
>
>
>
> Just a thought.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> --- Vaughn
>
>
>
>
>
> After His return to Baghdad, the words of Bahá'u'lláh were revealed in
> great profusion. They were uttered in the presence of some of the believers
> but for the most part were not recorded. Nabil-i-A'zam, the immortal
> chronicler of this Dispensation, has written that Bahá'u'lláh revealed the
> equivalent of the Qur'án within the space of a single day and night, and
> that He continued in this way for two whole years after His return from
> Kurdistan.
>
>
>
> In addition, many Tablets were revealed which were either written in
> Bahá'u'lláh's own hand, or dictated to His amanuensis, Mirza Aqa Jan. But a
> great portion of the papers on which they were inscribed, comprising
> hundreds of thousands of verses, were wiped clean with water and then thrown
> into the river at the direction of Bahá'u'lláh, Who asserted: 'None is to be
> found at this time worthy to hear these melodies'.
>
>
>
> (Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 1, p. 69)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* bounce-459043-5...@list.jccc.edu [mailto:
> bounce-459043-5...@list.jccc.edu] *On Behalf Of *David Friedman
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 16, 2009 12:17 AM
> *To:* Baha'i Studies
> *Subject:* What was the point?
>
>
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Baha'is are familiar with the story of how Baha'u'llah had quite a bit of
> what He revealed thrown into the river as humanity wasn't ready for it.
> Since God knew that humanity wasn't ready for it all along, why did He
> reveal it in the first place?  So that we'd have an interesting story
> recorded for posterity?  Couldn't He have just had Baha'u'llah say something
> at some point along the lines of Jesus' "I have many things to say to you,
> but you cannot bear them now"?  I thought it was part of progressive
> revelation that God reveals things suited to the capacity of the people.
> This story doesn't sit well with me, because it makes it appear like God
> made a mistake.
>
> Regards,
> David
>  --
>
> Download the new Windows Live Looking for a place to manage all your
> online stuff? 
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Re: Islam's Discouragement of Celibacy

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
But marriage is about compromise. If the guy was fine by living his life
from fasting and praying all day, then that's great. But if he has a wife,
and her needs aren't being met, she has the right to complain.




On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> There are very similar stories in the Jewish Midrash literature.
>
> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:15 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:
> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> >
> > No, I was comparing Islamic Arabia to secular America. The whole hadith's
> > story seem a lil absurd to me, not the theory behind it. Muhammad (the
> Glory
> > of God rest upon him) makes sense.The story is absurd, even though the
> point
> > being made makes sense. It seems more like a parable than something that
> > actually happened to me. No, I am not advocating sexless marriages, it's
> > just something that happens over time. It's a fact of life, not something
> to
> > complain about though. People marry people for love and spending their
> lives
> > toghter. It makes sex licit, but that is more of a side issue rather than
> > the central theme of marriage.
> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> > I'm really not sure what your point is. All the things you mention are
> > pretty exceptional. Are you advocating for sexless marriages? Are you
> > saying they are normal and healthy? Are you saying that the Bahai
> > attitude towards sex and marriage is fundamentally different?
> >
> > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:31 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:
> >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> >>
> >>
> >> Oh, I checked wikipedia for stats. It's some part a cultural issue.
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexless_marriage
> >>
> >>
> >> Sexless marriages frequently develop over time gradually from marriages
> >> that
> >> once involved more frequent sex. The following are possible causes:
> >>
> >> Marriage solely done for legal purposes, tax benefits or acquiring
> >> resident
> >> status (for example, in USA a spouse is entitled to Green Card if
> married
> >> to
> >> an American citizen or a permanent resident)
> >> Different work schedules/busy lives, making sex less of a priority than
> >> other events.
> >> Adultery can cause the partner having the affair to slow or stop sex
> with
> >> their partner.
> >> Sexual addiction or Pornography addiction can cause the addicted partner
> >> to
> >> not have sex with their regular partner.
> >> Sexual aversion or 'a low level of sexual desire' including a lack of
> >> sexual
> >> vitality due to age, past trauma, partners' incompatible sexual
> >> orientation
> >> or, simply, one of the spouses losing sexual desire towards his or her
> >> companion.
> >> Sexual dysfunction or difficulty during any stage of the sexual act,
> >> including severe vaginismus or erectile dysfunction
> >> Lack of sensation, desire or ability to achieve orgasm resulting as side
> >> effects from use or abuse of medication or illegal drugs.
> >> Asexuality or excessive masturbation.
> >> Mutually agreed sexless marriages, due to religious principles,
> avoidance
> >> of
> >> sexually transmitted diseases, a platonic basis for the relationship or
> >> avoiding conception.
> >> Post-pregnancy issues and hormonal imbalances. These can be temporary or
> >> permanent in nature
> >> Illness of one or both partners that affects physical or psychological
> >> sexuality.
> >> Power imbalance. One partner refuses to have sex with their spouse for
> >> personal reasons, such as to gain/maintain psychological control.
> >> Combinations of the above. Sexual desire, for example, can be closely
> tied
> >> to sexual difficulties.
> >>
> >> I have bold some of the more common ones. It's just that sexless
> marriages
> >> aren't to be that much of a big deal in America. Countries with
> >> anti-marital
> >> rape laws tend to have cultures that view that spouses have veto rights
> >> with
> >> regards to sex. One spouse could theoretically veto their spouse into
> >> involuntary celibacy.
> >>
> >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> >> I would assume that the hadith is accurate. I think the exact version
> >> my come from Shia sources but there are similar texts in sunni
> >> collections. I don't think the hadith says anything about ALL women,
> >> but just gives a glimpse of the family life of Uthman ibn Madh'oon's
> >> wife. Also, if the husband unilaterally made the relationship celibate
> >> I don't think it makes the wife particularly "lustful" if she
> >> complains. She has a right to complain if some of her basic
> >> expectations in the relationship aren't being met.
> >>
> >> Also, if you look at other texts one can also find examples which
> >> could easily framed as examples of "lustful" men. I think if you look
> >> at the texts as a whole, the picture is more nuanced and balanced.
> >>
> >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Stephen Gray 
> wrote:
> >>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Is that Hadith historically accurate? I

Re: Enoch

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Metatron is a fascinating figure in Jewish/Christian and possibly Islamic
Lore. In the Kabbalah he is the "voice of God."

"The Talmud  relates that Elisha ben
Abuyah , also called *Acher*,
(אחר, "other", as he became an
apostate),
entered Paradise and saw Metatron sitting down (an action that in heaven is
permitted only to God himself). Elishah ben Abuyah therefore looked to
Metatron as a deity and said heretically, "There are indeed two powers in
heaven!" The rabbis explain that Metatron was allowed to sit because of his
function as the Heavenly Scribe, writing down the deeds of Israel
(Babylonian Talmud, Hagiga 15a)." (Wikipedia)

"... the Talmud states, it was proved to Elisha that Metatron could not be a
second deity by the fact that Metatron received 60 'strokes with fiery rods'
to demonstrate that Metatron was not a god, but an angel, and could be
punished." (Wikipedia)

However, from the standpoint of Elisha ben Abuyah, Metatron appeared to be a
god.




On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>  I was looking books of the Old Testament and its Apocrypha, and stumbled
> across Enoch and his three books. It's interesting to note that they could
> be authentic in that there are no traces of Moses or the Mosaic law in any
> of them. This is really important in the Jews always have in their other
> scriptures said or implied how any given prophet was dependent on Moses via
> the law.
>
> Enoch became Metatron. Metatron  is super-human angelic being that speak
> for God and intercedes for people and even fallen angels. The Metatron
> tradition in Judaism could be thier memories of a Manifestation other than
> Adam (Adam Kadmon) or Moses. Metatron is sometimes indentified as the lesser
> LORD in Jewish texts. He also has 202 alternate names.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Book_of_Enoch
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_Enoch
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metatron
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alternate_names_for_Metatron
>
>
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Re: Baha'I laws

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think the difference is that there is no codified system of such a law in
the Baha'i Faith. Baha'u'llah, 'Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi may have made
statements such as "this is permitted but it's not really good", but there
is no official list of "praiseworthy", "permitted", "neutral", "disliked but
permitted", "prohibited" deeds. Some of the companions of Baha'u'llah also
observed that Baha'u'llah prayed in a manner that was similar to one of the
schools of Islam, but that's not how Baha'is are required to pray.




On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 12:03 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>  What's the difference between a statement about
> > behavior in the writings and a "law"?
>
> To me a law is something one is obligated or prohibited from doing. If
> it is just recommended, then it isn't law.
>
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Re: Jinn

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
In Islamic lore, Jinn can be good or bad entities. There is a verse in the
Qur'an that says some of the Jinn became Muslims upon hearing the recitation
of the Qur'an at a person's home. But they are often depicted as
troublemaking spirits in other Islamic literature. As far as I understand
it, Iblis is not depicted as a "fallen angel" in the Qur'an, but as a Jinn.
Angels don't have freewill in traditional Islamic theology. They can only do
what they are commanded to do, which is why good humans are said to have a
higher station than angels due to their free will to make a choice between
good and bad. The Qur'an says that when God told the concourse in Paradise
to bow to His creation, Adam, everyone bowed except for Iblis. He felt that
he was superior to Adam because he (Iblis) was made from fire, while Adam
was made from clay and dirt. Jinn are said to be made from "smokeless fire."
While I don't believe these stories are meant to be taken literally, I do
believe in the existence of Angels and Jinn as independent from human
beings.





On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Hasan Elías  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>   Thanks Susan,
>
> They are alive people here, or ded people (souls) in the other world:
> Sanctified people =  angels
> Very smart people = jinns?
>
> How to know if one is jinn or a normal person?
>
>
> El *lun, 5/31/10, Susan Maneck * escribió:
>
>
> De: Susan Maneck 
> Asunto: Re: Jinn
> A: "Baha'i Studies" 
> Fecha: lunes, 31 de mayo de 2010, 11:16 am
>
>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> > Can some explain a bit more? We talk about angels, jinns, Satan, i.e.,
> metaphysical figures, but, at the same time, we don't believe they exist. As
> a bahá'í of "2nd generation" since child I >don't believe in this beings.
> Angels are sanctified human souls, no?
>
> Yes, but sanctified souls exist don't they?
>
> If I understand Abdu'l-Baha correctly Jinn may or may not be
> sanctified. They usually aren't.
>
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Re: The only quality God doesn't has?

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
In my perspective, humility is one of God's most important attributes.
Jealousy, Rage, and Hatred are all human qualities that are distortions of
some of God's qualities. But humility and humbleness are pure qualities that
belong to God. Islamic traditions state that God imposed a law upon *Himself
* that His mercy must be greater than His wrath. Now if you are the ultimate
Supreme Consciousness of the entire Universe  thatyou yourself created, and
can literally *think* things into existence, then isn't the epitome of
humility to impose a law upon yourself when you can do anything you want
with no one to answer to?



On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Tim Nolan  wrote:

>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>  If I may jump in here.
>
> I suggest it's the wrong question to ask whether God has a particuar
> quality, unless
> a Manifestation of God refers to it.  God is not a person who has or does
> not have
> qualities.
> We can never understand God.  I have reached the conclusion that it's not
> useful to talk
> about God, except in very general terms, because anything we say about God
> is
> a product of our limited minds and is therefore  inadequate and misleading.
>
> The best we can do is learn about the Manifestations, Who give us a faint
> glimmering
> of what God is like.
> Tim
>
>
> All good art is about something deeper than it admits.
> --Roger Ebert
>
>
>  --
> *From:* Hasan Elías 
> *To:* Baha'i Studies 
> *Sent:* Tue, June 15, 2010 9:39:32 AM
> *Subject:* Re: The only quality God doesn't has?
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>  Hi Susan,
>
> So, God has it or not?
>
>
> thnx
>
>  --
> *De:* Susan Maneck 
> *Para:* Baha'i Studies 
> *Enviado:* lun, junio 14, 2010 10:10:01 AM
> *Asunto:* Re: The only quality God doesn't has?
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> > We know God possesss all qualities.
> > What about humility?
> >
> > This could be the only quality He doesn't possess?
>
> Dear Hasan,
>
> As you know the attributes of God really apply to His Manifestations
> and not His Essence which is unknowable. And His Manifestations *do*
> possess humility. In this connection you might want to read my article
> "Justice, Fairness and the Meekness of God."
>
> http://jfm.susanmaneck.com/
>
> warmest, Susan
>
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Re: Untrustworthy/Disobedient?

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
For one thing, the Dawnbreakers is sort of a hagiographical account of the
mission of the Bab'. Not everything written in it is meant to be an exact,
unbiased account of everything that went down in the Babi Movement.
Secondly, even if that story was exactly true I don't see it as that big of
a deal. I see a child who couldn't stay silent in school despite promising
his uncle that he wouldn't talk. I don't think it implies that the Bab'
could not be trusted later in life because he once disobeyed his uncle when
he was six or seven years old.

On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 6:25 AM, Susan Maneck  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> > Okay, I don't get it.  The Bab was a sinless Manifestation and was always
> a Manifestation.
>
> That doesn't mean He wasn't also a child. The Manifestation has two
> natures, one divine and the other human. The Bab's human nature was
> clearly that of an impetuous child.
>
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Re: Ablutions

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
But there are also passages in the Baha'i Writings, if taken at their face
value, could be construed to imply that the world was separated between
"believers" and "unbelievers."

*"Know thou for a certainty that whoso disbelieveth in God is neither
trustworthy nor truthful. This, indeed, is the truth, the undoubted
truth."*- Baha'u'llah

But taken as a whole, the Baha'i Faith doesn't teach that. I believe the
same is true for Islam. It would make no sense to me if Islam taught that
all non-Muslims were "ritually impure", while at the same time allowing
marriage between Muslims and the "People of the Book." Marriage is the most
intimate of relationships.

*"Now all mankind is considered to be from one single root, including
disbelievers and people of other races, nations, cultures, and religions."*
**
I have found this teaching also present in Islam; *"O Mankind! Behold, We
have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes so
that you might (affectionately) come to know one another. Verily, the most
honored among you, in the Sight of Allah, is the one who lives most upright.
Behold, Allah is Knower, Aware." (Qur'an 49:13)*

Muhammad Asad commented on this verse, stating *"We have created every one
of you out of a father and a mother" (Zamakhshari, Razi, Baydawi) - implying
that this equality of biological origin is reflected in the equality of the
human dignity common to all.] and have made you into nations and tribes, so
that you might come to know one another. [I.e., know that all belong to one
human family, without any inherent superiority of one over another
(Zamakhshari). This connects with the exhortation, in the preceding two
verses, to respect and safeguard each other's dignity. In other words, men's
evolution into "nations and tribes" is meant to foster rather than to
diminish their mutual desire to understand and appreciate the essential
human oneness underlying their outward differentiations; and,
correspondingly, all racial, national or tribal prejudice (asabiyyah) is
condemned - implicitly in the Quran, and most explicitly by the Prophet (see
second half of note on 28:15). In addition, speaking of people's boasting of
their national or tribal past, the Prophet said: "Behold, God has removed
from you the arrogance of pagan ignorance (jahiliyyah) with its boast of
ancestral glories. Man is but a God-conscious believer or an unfortunate
sinner. All people are children of Adam, and Adam was created out of dust."
(Fragment of a hadith quoted by Tirmidhi and Abu Daud, on the authority of
Abu Hurayrah.)] Verily, the noblest of you in the sight of God is the one
who is most deeply conscious of Him. Behold, God is all-knowing, all-aware."
*
**

**
**




On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 12:25 PM, haj...@yahoo.com  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>   >> But finally, I'm still kind of confused by where the question is
> coming from. I understand that you might not call it "ritual purity"or
> "ritual impurity". But if both the Bahai faith and Islam have ablutions
> which need to be performed before the prayers that would make them equally
> "superstitious" to use your conept.. I mean, in the Bahai case, even if you
> just took a bath, and then choose to pray, you would still do the ablutions
> again, right? That seems to be more of a ritual concept, no? <<
>
> Hi Gilberto, I think you are confusing different issues.  Lets consider the
> concept of ritual impurity.
>
> I think the difference is that in Islam and especially in the Qur'an,
> non-Muslims, the disbelievers, and considered to be a distinct group of
> people separate from the Muslims (the believers) who are pure.  The Islamic
> concept of "ritual impurity" is an extension of this foundational idea.
>  When, if the Muslims are correct, the world becomes a Muslim world, the
> world passes from a state of general impurity of disbelief to a state of
> spiritual purity full of believers.
>
> The Baha'i idea of ablutions and provisions about cleanliness are
> foundationally different from the Islamic idea because the core concept that
> humanity is separated into "believers" and "disbelievers" has been
> eliminated.  Now all mankind is considered to be from one single root,
> including disbelievers and people of other races, nations, cultures, and
> religions.
>
> This is because "Baha'u'llah", the Glory of Allah, has already appeared on
> earth.  The Glory of Allah is not going to appear in the future, it already
> appeared in the past.
>
> The Muslim concept that mankind is still separated into believers vs.
> disbelievers (and *consequently* into different cultures, races,
> nationalities, etc. etc.) is because Islam is still waiting for the Day of
> Judgment.
>
> Best Regards.
>
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Re: Ablutions

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Just as you might interpret a lot of things from your own Baha'i Faith
symbolically and metaphorically, perhaps you may also want to give Islam the
same kind of treatment and see what comes from it? I understand that you are
upset by what some of the Mullahs have said about the Baha'is, but I don't
think Islam as a world religion with a billion adherents should be subjected
to what some clerics say. The Qur'an itself allows for interfaith marriages
with the "people of the Book." If all non-Muslims are regarded as "ritually
unclean", then how is it that a Muslim is permitted to have the most
intimate of all relationships with such a person? *"And among His signs is
this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may
dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your
hearts. Verily in that are signs for those who reflect." (Qur'an 30:21) *How
can you "dwell in tranquility" with someone you regard is "ritually impure",
and put "love and mercy between your hearts"? It just doesn't make any sense
to me to say that a Muslim can't be friends or even so far as physically
touch a non-Muslim because they are ritually impure, but yet it's okay to go
a thousand steps further and marry them.

Best Regards



On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
> Based on this verse (Quran 9:28) and other hadith, etc. there is decree
> after decree, even in this 21st century, from Muslim clerics that we Baha'is
> are najas, that Muslims should not shake hands with us, marry us, eat with
> us, invite us to their homes, accept invitations for food at Baha'i houses,
> etc., etc.
>
>  يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا
> يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَٰذَا ۚ وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ
> عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ إِنْ شَاءَ ۚ إِنَّ
> اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ {28}
> *[Shakir 9:28]* O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean,
> so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you
> fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please;
> surely Allah is Knowing Wise.
> *[Pickthal 9:28]* O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let
> them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If
> ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve
> you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
> *[Yusufali 9:28]* O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let
> them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye
> fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty,
> for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
> *[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:28]*
>
> The infidels are unclean both literally and metaphorically. It refers to
> their physical uncleanliness as well as to their impure hearts and souls.
> According to the holy Imams anything wet touched by an idolater should not
> be used unless properly purified.
>
> When the unclean pagans were debarred from entering the sacred precinct of
> Ka-bah, the Muslims began to worry about the profits from trade and
> commerce, but Allah assured them that their welfare and economic position
> will not suffer. This actually happened.
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Gilberto Simpson <
> gilberto.simp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> In terms of books/references  I tend to consult, none of them treat
>> *people* that way. As far as I am concerned, najas only comes up in
>> terms of defining "clean surface" and "clean clothing" in terms of
>> prayer (which in a general sort of way is similar to the Bahai). Also,
>> you aren't supposed to eat najas. But the idea that certain people are
>> supposed to be shunned or treated as untouchable because they are
>> non-Muslim is definitely not a part of Islam. Matt definitely cited
>> several relevant texts on this point...
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 10:12 AM,   wrote:
>> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>  > Dear Gilberto:
>> >
>> > The concept of "najas" (untouchable because something is considered
>> ritually impure) does not exist in the Baha'i Faith. My understanding is
>> that in Islam an infidel (kAAfir, or mushrik) is considered "najas", or
>> semen is considered "najas". This "najas" concept (ritual impurity) is
>> non-existent in the Baha'i religion. Otherwise, Baha'is are commanded to be
>> quintessences of refinement and exquisite cleanliness. The term used is
>> "litAAfat" which is rather difficult to translate as one single word in
>> English.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> > Iskandar
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
>> >
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: Gilberto Simpson 
>> > Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 00:59:37
>>  > To: Baha'i Studies
>> > Subject: Re: Ablutions
>> >
>> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>  > On Thu,

Re: Ablutions

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
No thanks. I don't follow those scholars in terms of theology. I study
religions on my own, and come to my own conclusions what I think about them.


On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 7:47 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I think it would be a great idea if Gilberto or Matt ask Sistani or Fazel
> Lankarani about Baha'is specifically, if they consider us Baha'is as najas
> infidels apostates or kAAfir or mushrik.
>
> Dear Matt and Gilberto, will you both kindly do ask this question in
> separate letters from the Shiah Ayatollahs Lankarani, Khamenei, and Sistani
> and from other leading Sunni mufti scholars?
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Iskandar
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
>
> On Jun 23, 2010, at 2:20 AM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
>
>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>
>>> You mean the same Imams whom Bahaullah called
>>>
>>> " the manifestations of the power of God, and the
>>> sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and
>>> the daysprings of His commandments."?
>>>
>>
>> As I said, I don't know how authentic those ahadith are.
>>
>> I'm not saying that people aren't being mistreated. I'm primarily
>>> questioning how the mistreatment is being framed. You want to blame
>>> Islam or Muslims as Muslims.
>>>
>>
>> I believe the issue was najas, not Islam or Muslims.
>>
>> You are missing the point. I'm not saying that it is "just" Jews. If
>>> anything, it is "just" Persians (of a certain era). Maybe you should
>>> blame the Safavids and their legacy instead of Islam.
>>>
>>
>> I think the fact that the Safavids forcibly converted Iran to Shi'ism
>> was a problem, but the intolerance towards religious minorities was
>> introduced by the 'ulama brought in from Iraq, so it isn't just an
>> Iranian thing.
>>
>>>
>>> I think you are mischaracterizing what "the ulama" are saying. And
>>> they don't speak with one voice. Grand Ayatolla Sistani and Grand
>>> Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani both explicitly hold that Jews and
>>> Christians are ritually clean. And Sistani is basically the highest
>>> ranking 12-er cleric in Iraq.
>>>
>>
>> If they say Baha'is are not najas I'll be impressed.
>>
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Re: Ablutions

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I'm concerned that you are so eager to lump all Muslims together as bad
people who hate Baha'is, when you are talking to two simultaneously who
don't. Do you want Muslims to hate you or something?



On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:01 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Well, I seriously doubt if the Quran verse 9:28 was meant to be understood
> spiritually back then at that time when it was revealed in early 7th century
> because it is reassuring the early Muslims not to worry about the loss of
> trade and business with the Meccans. This is manifestly obvious. But it
> would be nice if it is understood and read metaphorically nowadays by all
> Muslims regarding Baha'is or regarding folks who don't believe in God, or
> people who don't believe in any religion, or Buddhists or Hindus, etc. Alas,
> that's not the case.
>
>
>
> Best regards
> Iskandar
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On Jun 23, 2010, at 7:04 AM, Gilberto Simpson 
> wrote:
>
>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> Susan, I don't think you understood what I said.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
>>
>>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>>
 I would definitely read that ayat spiritually. (And it is my

 understanding that that is the typical Hanafi view at least).

>>>
>> I would too. The issue here was clearly profaning a holy site.
>>>
>>
>> No. The verse in question is:
>> [Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let
>> them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And
>> if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of
>> His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
>>
>> And what I'm saying is that in the Hanafi view (note that the Hanafis
>> are the most populous interpretation of Sunni Islam... the Ottomans
>> and the Mughals were Hanafi), in the above verse, Pagans are being
>> described as unclean in a spiritual sense. NOT in a physical sense and
>> not in a sense that relates to laws about najas (ritual impurity) and
>> should not be used to justify a social system where non-Muslims have
>> cooties.
>>
>>
>> Personally  Muslims do not offend me by not letting me go to Mecca any
>>> more than Zoroastrians offend me by not letting me into their Fire
>>> Temples. However, when a Jew or a Zoroastrian can't go out when it is
>>> raining for fear he will rub up against a Muslim and pollute them,
>>> that is another question.
>>>
>>
>> Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular
>> time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims
>> in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules
>> differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims
>> everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led
>> them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those
>> particular ways.
>>
>>  (And do
>>>
 you think that Bahais count as Idolaters?)

>>>
>>> The question really is how do Muslims regard us? As you know, this
>>> verse came to be applied to all non-Muslims even the Ahl-i Kitab.
>>>
>>
>> The Saudis apply the law that way but there are definitely ulema which
>> don't interpret the Quran that way and 1) maintain the distinction
>> between Pagans and People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab) and 2) would even
>> say it is halal for straight up Pagans to visit as long as they don't
>> stay.(this is mentioned in one of the links I provided elsewhere in
>> this thread)
>>
>>  So if you want to shake
>>>
 hands I'm not going to treat you like najas. And if you serve some
 good vegetarian food or seafood (which is what I eat for myself) then
 I'd be happy to partake.

>>>
>>> As would most Muslims living in the US. It is only in predominantly
>>> Muslim countries that we are likely to face discrimination.
>>>
>>
>> In terms of the particular religious question under discussion (ritual
>> impurity) this is an interpretation limited primarily to Iran, not the
>> Muslim world as a whole.
>>
>>  Marriage is a tricky question. Officially,
>>>
 neither Christianity nor Judaism really approve of intermarriage.

>>> So
>>>
 Islam is actually more inclusive by allowing marriage with People of
 the Book. (And then the question is whether Bahais count under that
 category)

>>>
>> As you know Christianity is pretty broad. Even Catholics are allowed
>>> to intermarry now. It is mostly only evangelicals disapprove,
>>>
>>
>> It isn't that the rules change. If you look up a Catechism of the
>> Catholic Church and look at what is says about marriage, marriage is
>> still a sacrament and so  it can still only happen between baptized
>> Christians. And Catholics are a majority of Christians worldwide. In
>> any case, the Bible still says "Be not yoked with unbelievers".
>>
>> Judaism is more
>>> tolerant of women intermarrying than men. Islam is just the opposite.
>>> Men can intermarry but

Re: Ablutions

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Yes, I respect most religions, even some of the nature-based quasi Pagan
ones.




On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:26 PM,  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
> I am asking you, Gilberto, or Mat Haas.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Iskandar
>
>
>
> Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Gilberto Simpson 
>  Sender: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010
> 22:24:40
> To: Baha'i Studies
> Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
> Subject: Re: Ablutions
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Who are you asking?
>
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:20 PM,   wrote:
> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> >
> >
> >
> > Do you have respect for Islam the same way that you have respect for
> Christianity, Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith?
> >
> > Do you have respect for Buddhism? Or, for the Baha'i Faith?
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Iskandar
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Gilberto Simpson 
> > Sender: Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010
> 22:15:29
> > To: Baha'i Studies
> > Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
> > Subject: Re: Ablutions
> >
> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> > I think that what a Bahai means by "respect Islam, honor the Prophet
> > and regard the Quran as the word of God" is very very different from
> > what a Muslim means by "respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard
> > the Quran as the word of God".
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Susan Maneck 
> wrote:
> >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> >>> I think part of it is what Susan said. Some people have actually
> >>> experienced real persecution at the hands of Muslims and it has an
> >>> effect. I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if
> >>> there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be
> >>> anything special about being Bahai.
> >>
> >> Gilberto,
> >>
> >> It is *because* I am a Baha'i that I respect Islam, honor the Prophet
> >> and regard the Qu'ran as the Word of God. I would certainly not have
> >> done those things I had remained a Christian.
> >>
> >> warmest, Susan
> >>
> >>__
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Re: Time dependence of Revelation

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Yes I am seriously honest. I have read most of the Tanakh ("Old Testament"),
and yes there are obvious contradictions in it. That doesn't bother me.
Respect is not about what you believe about other ideologies, but how you
treat people who adhere to those ideologies. I disagree with some aspects of
Hinduism, but I would never insult the people who practice that tradition.
The same goes for everyone else. The words that you quoted me were actually
a response to someone who was portraying the majority of Muslims as if they
all hated Baha'is/non-Muslims and believed they were ritually impure, and
had nothing to do with theology so to speak.

There is actually a copy of the Qur'an handwritten by Imam 'Ali, the cousin
of the Prophet Muhammad, in a museum somewhere in the Middle-East, and 'Ali
was killed some 12-15 years after the Prophet died. So it was not long
before the Qur'an was put into writing.

Baha'u'llah lived in a culture of writing, whereas Muhammad didn't. Herego,
just because Baha'u'llah hand wrote his own revelations and stamped them
with his approval does not necessitate that the early Muslims practice of
memorization is any less accurate. Memorization was the "book keeping" of
that civilization. Also, some of the Bab's and Baha'u'llah's revelations
were lost, stolen, or thrown into the sea so we literally don't know all
that they wrote. That is not to make a point as to who is superior/inferior
or anything like that.



On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 6:30 AM, hajmog  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>  >> Yes, I respect most religions, even some of the nature-based quasi
> Pagan ones <<
>
> Are you seriously honest?  You respect Christianity but think their book
> has errors in it?  Is that really respectful?  What that means is that you
> believe in "another Christianity" that doesn't even exist (nobody follows
> the Christianity that you have in mind), one that had a book revealed to
> Jesus similar to how a book was revealed to Muhammad?
>
> Now you should think about what Bahais mean by "respecting Christianity".
>
> And you should think about what Bahais means by "revelation" and it's
> time-dependent qualities.  Even "how" revelation place is dependent on the
> capacity of mankind.
>
> For example, Moses and Jesus didn't directly dictate their teachings to
> scribes but they were written down times afterward, and Muhammad didn't
> actually write anything down himself, but people wrote them down after
> memorizing them.
>
> But in this day, Bab and Bahaullah actually wrote their revelations
> themselves or directly dictated them to secretaries and then stamped them
> after review.
>
> The nature of "revelation" itself is time-dependent, let alone the contents
> of "revelation"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __
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Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
"Isn't it better to build bridges and build on common ground than emphasize
the differences?"

That was the whole point that I was trying to make to you, as well.




On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:43 AM,  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>
> Well, you know guys, this whole thing is rather funny: I pointed out that
> there definitely is a major difference about this "najas" issue in that
> whereas the Quran 9:28 clearly and explicitly says some folks are "najas",
> this whole concept just does not exist in the Baha'I Faith at all. Then we
> moved to more common ground, which I think is more positive and more
> fruitful. Now, the emphasis is on differences, again. Do I really need to
> remind you that you and I belong to two different religions? You think that
> I had forgotten that? Isn't it better to build bridges and build on common
> ground than emphasize the differences? Of course the Baha'i Faith has laws
> and commandments that are different from Islam. Heck, there are very real
> and very major and irreconcilable differences between Shi`ah and Sunni.
> Shall I recount them for you? I prefer not to.
>
> No, we Baha'is do not go out of our way to invite a non-Baha'i to our
> 19-day feast. It is quite uninteresting for a non-Baha'i, but if you as a
> non-Baha'i want to attend it, you are welcome and you will not be barred. I
> cannot get the directive for you right now from my cell phone; but if you
> really need it, I can get it for you. Or, Susan can get it for you. I'd love
> to go on pilgrimage to Mecca as a non-Muslim but the Saudi government won't
> permit that. And I suspect they will not listen to Gilberto or Matt telling
> them otherwise. Do I begrudge or hate Muslims for not letting me visit the
> Kaabah? No, of course not.
>
>
> Regarding the issue of Seal of the Prophets, my conclusion is that
> Baha'u'llah's reading and interpretation of this whole issue of finality is
> the most profound understanding of the term. We Baha'is certainly do believe
> in Islam and in the Quran in a manner that is totally unacceptable by a
> Christian or a Jew or a Zoroastrian person. Of course we have a different
> hermeneutic, and a different reading of the Quran. There is a major and
> irreconcilable difference between the Shi`ah understanding of "people in
> authority" in Quran 4:59 and the Sunni understanding of the verse. For a
> Shi`ah the first 3 Caliphs were simply illegitimate and usurpers of `Ali's
> right to be the infallible successor to the Prophet and the interpreter of
> the Quran.
>
> I prefer to dwell on commonalities and de-emphasize the differences. But I
> think I'm going to stop posting any more comments.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Iskandar
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Gilberto Simpson 
> Sender: Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010
> 12:56:44
> To: Baha'i Studies
> Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" 
> Subject: Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:43 AM,   wrote:
> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> >
> >
> > Much thanks, dear Gilberto for your comments.
> >
> > Baha'is believe that Muhammad is the last Prophet in the same sense that
> Jesus, Moses, and Baha'u'llah are the last Prophet. And the first Prophet.
> It's all explained in Baha'u'llah's "Book of Certitude" and in Khazeh's
> paper.
>
> I've read Khazeh's paper and parts of the Book of Certitude. I know
> what you are saying. I don't want to argue about it. All I'm saying is
> that this is definitely not the ordinary meaning of the word "last".
> And it isn't what Muslims mean by "last". And when I'm feeling
> uncharitable I would just say it is dishonest. But otherwise I think
> it is a sincerely believed paradox.
>
> > Baha'is believe that Jesus was the Son of God in the same sense that
> Moses, Muhammad, you, and me are Sons of God. The uniqueness of Christ was
> not that He was fatherless and conceived of the Holy Spirit. The uniqueness
> of Jesus is because He was the Word, the Logos, the Primal Will; it's
> because He was a lamp from which the unique light of "haqiqat muhammadiyyah"
> was shining. In other words, Baha'is believe that He was as unique as Moses,
> Muhammad, Baha'u'llah, Adam, Noah, Buddha, Zoroaster, and the Bab.
>
> I personally think that the concept of Haqiqat Muhammadiyyah / Logos
> is a powerful tool for reconciling *some* claims about the status of
> Jesus (as) and Muhammad (as). (e.g. Arian Christians and Muslims). But
> at the end of the day, Bahais read the Quran in ways which are
> radically different enough for me to say they don't believe it. (Most
> obviously when it comes to rejecting its commandments).
>
>
> > Regarding the 19-day feast: it is open to non-Baha'is. During the
> consultation period of the 19-day feast, if a vote is going to be taken,
> then the votes of Baha'is are counted, naturally.
>
> http://bahai-library.com/compilations/feast.html

Re: Sectarianism in Islam

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
*Moorish Science Temple of America*, *Druze*, *Alevi* and *Yazidis* don't
claim to be Muslims, but claim a distinct identity apart from Islam.






On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 10:42 AM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Islam_tree.jpg That's
> a summary chart.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_schools_and_branches This is the
> article it came from.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghulat
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zind%C4%ABq
>
> Currently, Muslims consider Baha'is to be Zindiq, but even if they didn't,
> it would probably only mean a raise from Zindiq status to Ghulat status.
>
> Scholars list the Baha'i Faith as a related faith along Sikhism (along with
> its Khalsa), Babism (Daheshism and Azaliism), etc. There are also Five
> Percents and Nuwaubu. None of the above here claim to be Muslims.
>
> There are heterodoxy who claim to be Muslims, but are rejected by other
> Muslims: Ahmadiyya, Madhavi, Zikri, Nation of Islam, Moorish Science Temple
> of America, Druze, Yazdanism, Alevi, Alawi, Ghurabiyya, Bazighiyya,
> Ya'furiyya, Dhammiya, Yazidi, etc.
>
> There are also reformist movements: Salfi, Islamism, Liberalism, and
> Qur'anism.
>
>
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Re: Seer Status

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think one of the figures of the Baha'i Faith also said that Rumi has a
unique station in that he is not a "Prophet" per se, but that he was
special.



On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> > Abdu'l-Baha referred to Joseph Smith, Junior as being this.
>
> I think Joseph Smith is referred to as a 'seer' in one of the letters
> written on behalf of the Guardian, not by 'Abdu'l-Baha.
>
> > What does it mean for a person to have seer status?
>
> I don't think the term 'seer' necessarily denotes a particular status.
>
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Re: Seal of the Prophets

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I have also come to this conclusion of what the Baha'i "stance" is on this
issue from reading/studying the Baha'i Writings. I think the same can be
said of Islam. The Qur'an is very emphatic at times about the equality of
all the prophets with statements like "we make no distinction between any of
them", yet it also says "we have exalted some above others." The latter
phrase has been used for centuries to claim that Muhammad (pbuh) was the
"chief" or "greatest" of all the prophets who came before him. But there are
also Hadiths which have the prophet scolding some of his followers for
claiming that he was better than Moses, and he replied that he wasn't even
better than Jonah. So, the "essence" vs. "manifestation" argument is a good
way at solving the problem of "who is better than who."




On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Khazeh  wrote:

>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>
> Shahram Rohani [shahramroh...@yahoo.com]
> Wrote:
> .**What we, Persian language people, understand from the text of
> "Ishraaqaat"-- and I think that Ishraq Khavari has also confirmed it -- is
> that both Prophethood & Messengership are sealed by Prophet Muhammad.And Bab
> and Bahá'u'lláh are Manifestations of God; that is quite different from
> those previous stations.
> Thanks/Rohani**
>
> Shahram e aziz
> You are still trying to look for distinctions of *Essence** =Dhaat/Zaat,
> rather than differences of language, difference of stages and progressions
> and tones.
> The Prophet of God said *** "Manifold are Our relationships with God.  At
> one time, We are He Himself, and He is We Ourself. At another He is that He
> is, and We are that We are."
> This statement [lanaa ma'allah h.aalaat...] is quoted in a special and
> elegant commentary by the late Imam Khomaini copy enclosed
>  (لنا مع الله حالات هو فيها نحن ونحن هو ، وهو هو ونحن نحن)
>
> so we have to consider that there are many relationships, many languages.
> But the essence of ALL the Manifestations is one.
>
> so with this background allow me to continue offering some thoughts
>
> In the h.adith of Islam the Imams say and I quote Kulayni
>
>
> http://www.alseraj.net/maktaba/kotob/hadith/kafi1/html/ara/books/al-kafi-1/165.html
>
> hadeethunaa s.a’bun mustas.ab
>
> our discourse is abstruse, exceedingly abstruse.
>
> So nearly all of the utterances of the Manifestations of God should not be
> interpreted summarily, instantly, without thought, without respect, or
> meditation.
>
> It is true, absolutely true that Baha’u’llah refers to the significance and
> station of the Prophet Muhammad and says that **by His Coming intahat
> in-nubuwwat war-risaalat* i.e. by the Prophet’s Coming Prophethood and
> Messengership came to *intihaa* to Its culmination. To its end.
>
> But here, and I promise you God forbid I am not an interpreter here it
> means that Prophethood and Messengership reached and attained its *intihaa*
> Its culmination in a Preparatory sense, in a Preliminary sense to the day of
> Bahá’u’lláh. And this is simply because that which is reached and attained
> before culminates in the next important event.
>
> The nine month gestation of the foetus culminates [YANTAHEE] in the birth
> of a baby, but childhood culminates in adolescence, and adolescence in
> adulthood etc.
>
> Essentially there is one reality that is why Baha’is do not arrogate powers
> and capabilities that are not theirs.
>
> In these references Baha’u’llah says that the *SEAL* CULMINATED in the day
> of **, “The Day when mankind shall stand before the Lord of the Throne
> above the exalted Seat**
>
> But remember we do not arrogate any powers
>
> It is for this reason, and this reason only, that those who have recognized
> the Light of God in this age, claim no finality for the Revelation with
> which they stand identified, nor arrogate to the Faith they have embraced
> powers and attributes intrinsically superior to, or essentially different
> from, those which have characterized any of the religious systems that
> preceded it. (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 59) This
> is very important
>
> And in Bukhari it says
>
> **Narrated Jarir bin Abdullah:
>
> We were in the company of the Prophet on a
>
> Fourteenth night (of the lunar month), and he
>
> Looked at the (full) moon and said, "You will see
>
> Your Lord as you see this moon, and you will
>
> have no trouble in looking at Him.
>
> (Hadith, Bukhari Vol 6)
>
> The Shin of God:
>
> *Translation of Al-Qur’an 068:042:*
> “(Remember) the Day when *the Shin* shall be laid bare (i.e. the Day of
> Resurrection) and they shall be called to prostrate (to God), but they
> (hypocrites) shall not be able to do so,”
>
> Yawma yukshafu AAan s*a*qin wayudAAawna il*a* a*l*ssujoodi fal*a* yasta*t*
> eeAAoon*a*
>
> Muhammad Taqi 
> Usmani
>  On
> the Day when the Shin will be expos

Re: Prayer Times in Islam

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I would also like to point out that not every Islamic practice comes
directly from the Qur'an. Some were enumerated or slightly modified by the
Prophet, and became part of the "Sunna." So the Qur'an may indeed only
mention three prayers throughout the day, but the Prophet may have made some
minor modifications for specific instances, that then became part of the
regular "Sunna." The Shi'a still pray three times a day instead of five, but
they perform the extra rakats for two of the Salats, which amount to the
same amount as if they prayed five times a day.




On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Gilberto Simpson  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> A fairly common interpretation is that salat al-wusta refers to asr.
>
>
> Also 73:20 is pretty clearly a reference to Tahajjud (night prayer)
> which arguably includes witr. Also, the verse which Sen brought up
> seems to include maghrib (as a prayer time), no?
>
>
> On 8/5/10, Stephen Gray  wrote:
> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> > The ones mentioned in Hadith:
> > Fajr
> > Dhuhr
> > Asr
> > Maghrib
> > Isha'a
> > Witr
> > Tahajjud
> >
> > The ones mentioned in Quran:
> > Fajr
> > Al-Wusta
> > Isha'a
> >
> > Note: Dhur, Asr, and Maghrib are mentioned but not in connection with
> > prayer.
> >
> > Question: If Al-Wusta is mentioned in the Quran, why don't Muslims pray
> it?
> >
> >
> >
> > __
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Re: Qur'an Translations

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I like Muhammad Asad's translation, because it has a lot of footnotes and he
goes into the deep root meanings of a lot of the words. I also like Ahmed
Ali's translation because he doesn't accept the interpretation that the
Qur'an prescribes husbands to hit their wives (even 'lightly' as Yusuf Ali
put it, or "so it doesn't leave a mark.") Most of the Saudi translations are
useless, unless you want to be indoctrinated to hate Jews and Christians. It
doesn't make them good just because they're free. I have been looking for a
Sufi translation of the Qur'an, but haven't been able to find one. I would
think there would be some out there. Perhaps they don't want their secrets
out in the open or something.




On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>  http://www.meforum.org/717/assessing-english-translations-of-the-quran
>
> This article divides tranlations into:
> Early Translations
> 20th Century Classics
> Saudi-Endorsed Translations
> Bucking The Saudi Authority
> Sectarian Translations
> Falling Short
>
> So what translations are you familiar with?
>
> Examples:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Quran-Translation-Commentary/dp/0940368854/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281364753&sr=1-1
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Commentary-Holy-Quran-S-V-Ahmed/dp/9644381734/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281364753&sr=1-2
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Koran-Yasin-T-al-Jibouri/dp/1879402394/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281364753&sr=1-3
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Koran-Interpreted-S-V-Ahmed/dp/B000B8K7LI/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281364753&sr=1-5
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Quran-English-Translation-Mahdi-Puya/dp/B0032DENTQ/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281364753&sr=1-6
>
> Previeable:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Quran-Translation-Commentary/dp/0940368854/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281364753&sr=1-1
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Koran-Interpreted-S-V-Ahmed/dp/B000B8K7LI/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281364753&sr=1-5
>
> Other books by S. V. Mir Ahmed Ali:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Husain-S-V-Mir-Ahmed-Ali/dp/B003FQ38WS/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281364753&sr=1-4
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Saving-Monotheism-Sands-Karbala-Ahmed/dp/094036803X/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281364753&sr=1-7
>
>
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Re: I'jaz al-Quran (Ininmitability of the Quran)

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
It's basically a challenge from God to those who reject it. Some of the
polytheist Arabs took to saying that Muhammad (pbuh) was like the
soothsayers who would go into trances and reveal prophecies in poetic prose,
for a nominal fee. The Qur'an tells people to learn from those who don't ask
for a "fee", but who say "our recompense is with God." The polytheist Arabs
also claimed that a Persian man was actually revealing the Qur'an, and
teaching the verses to Muhammad. While the Qur'an has similarities to other
forms of Arabic poetry, it claims to be unique because it is the speech of
God Himself. The Qur'an is unique because the Qur'an is unique. I don't know
how else to explain it, to myself, or to others.

Peace



On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 1:31 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>  In several places God, Gabriel, Muhammad, etc. challenge people to bring
> a book, surahs, a surah, verses, lines, etc. like it.
>
> What are the rules of the challenge?
>
> Qur'an alones say it's a hidden 19 code in it.
>
> Some muslims say social impact over time.
>
> Some muslims say not rhyming, not bahir, not poetry, not prose, not
> ordinary speach, not sootsaying, etc... in Arabic.
>
> Several people have historically taken up the challenge. So who really
> verifies if something is or is not like the Quran?
>
>
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Re: Sura Hafd and Sura Khal'

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
He was born in Medina when it was still called Yathrib. He was also a Hafez
(one who memorized the Qur'an.)



On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>  There were several codices of the Quran before Uthman standarized one.
> (Mecca, Medina, Damascus, Basra, and Kufa. He standardized Medina) Ubbay ibn
> Ka'b's codex seems to have included these two. Which city was he from?
>
>
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Re: I'jaz al-Quran (Ininmitability of the Quran)

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
If you believe a book is the very speech of God, of course you are going to
say that no other book written is like it, even if it has similarities in
style, prose and language to other works. The uniqueness of the Book is who
the Author is, not whether it has a similar line to some Arab poem or the
like.

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:18 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>
>
> Yes, but that's what not what most Muslims believe. They say no book ever
> written is like it. The prbolem with that is that the Quran compres itself
> to other scriptures like the Sefer Yetzirah, Torah, Psalms, Gospels, etc.
> They also say since noone will ever bring any more surahs, Islam is final.
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> >
> > In several places God, Gabriel, Muhammad, etc. challenge people to bring
> a
> > book, surahs, a surah, verses, lines, etc. like it.
>
> There aren't any rules. The point is that the Qur'an is immitable.
> What makes the Qur'an the Word of God is that when we hear it our
> hearts our moved in such a way that we hear God speak.
>
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Re: Astral Projection & Lucid dreaming

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I have astral projected, and I can assure you that it is real. But I don't
expect anyone to believe it unless it has happened to them. I agree with the
Baha'i stance on discouraging people from developing these abilities, which
is possible to do. It sounds like a lot of fun, but there is a whole other
world out there; and if you don't know how to protect yourself from the
unseen, you could seriously get hurt (both spiritually and physically.) I
know Baha'is don't believe in demons and jinn, but I look at crossing into
the "spirit world" as if one is going to a foreign country. A lot of people
are going to know you are a foreigner, and some people will take advantage
of your confusion and guide you into an alley and rob you or something.



On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 1:07 AM, Minhaj Khan  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> That's what bothers me. I find no reference to it anywhere. I asked
> some Baha'is and they assure me that psychic powers only imply healing
> abilities and such. Astral projection seems very natural - just
> meditate and have an out-of-body experience.
>
> On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 1:33 AM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> >> Is there any information in the faith on astral projections or lucid
> dreaming?
> >
> > Abdu'l-Baha gives deja vu dreaming as proof of the immoratality of the
> > soul, but I don't know of anything on astral projection except that it
> > might be one of the psychic powers we are discouraged from developing.
> >
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Re: Astral Projection & Lucid dreaming

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Well, a lot of times the Baha'i writings will say something like "meditate
upon this", which even in English implies to "think" or "reflect", rather
than what we normally associate with eastern styled meditation. Zikr is more
of the "trance" inducing styles of meditation, like Mantras in the Indian
tradition. Repeating any word thousands of times will give that effect, but
it is the belief that these words are holy and have a special potency to
them. As for Merkabah, I found this paragraph from Wikipedia interesting:

*"Ma’asei Merkavah, the first distinctly mystical movement in Jewish
history, appeared in the late Hellenistic period, after the end of the **Second
Temple* * period following the
destruction of the Second Temple in 70 C.E. It is a form of
pre-**Kabbalah*
* **Jewish* *
**mysticism*
*, that teaches both of the possibility of making a sublime journey to **God
* * and of the ability of man to draw down
divine powers to earth; it seems to be an esoteric movement that grew out of
the priestly mysticism already evident in the **Dead Sea
Scrolls*
* and some apocalyptic writings (see the studies by **Rachel
Elior*
*).[8]
Hekhalot writings are the literary artifacts of the Maasei Merkavah."*
**
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkabah

I think all forms of meditation are connected in some way, personally.




On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Susan Maneck  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> > Fikr? I thought the word for meditation was Muraqaba and the associate
> > practice of Dhikr.
>
> The times when I've gone to the original the word has always been
> fikr. Perhaps Iskandar or Khazeh can tell us whether the word muraqaba
> ever appears. Dhikr appears a lot, however.
>
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Re: Lataif-as-Sitta (The Subtleties)

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Nafs rougly means the "animalistic" nature of humans in its most basic
state. But it can rise to different levels of perfection through
self-discipline, supplication, etc.

>From Wikipedia:

*In the eponymous **Sura* * of the
Qur’an, the prophet **Yusef* * says "Yet
I claim not that my nafs was innocent: Verily the nafs of man incites to
evil."[Qur'an 
12:53
] Here he is explaining the circumstances in which he came to be falsely
imprisoned for the supposed seduction of
**Zuleika*
*.*

*Islam emphasises the importance of fighting nafs because the prophet **
Muhammad* * said after returning from
a war, "We now return from the small struggle (**Jihad
Asghar*
*) to the big struggle (**Jihad
Akbar*
*)". His companions asked, "Oh **prophet*
* of **God* *, what is the big struggle?"
He replied, "The struggle against
nafs."[6]
*

*The Qur'an enjoins the faithful "to hinder the nafs from
lust",[Qur'an
 79:40 ] and another
**hadith* * warns that "the worst enemy
you have is [the nafs] between your
sides."[7]
**Rumi* * warns of the nafs in its guise
of religious hypocrisy, saying "the nafs has a
**rosary*
* and a **Koran* * in its right hand,
and a **scimitar* * and dagger in the
sleeve."[8]
*

*Animal imagery is often used to describe the nafs. A popular image is a
donkey or unruly horse that must be trained and broken so that eventually it
will bear its rider to the
goal.[9]
**Rumi* * compares the nafs to a camel
which the hero **Majnun* *,
representing the intellect (**'Aql* *),
strains to turn in the direction of the dwelling-place of his
beloved.[8]
*

*The self-accusing nafs (nafs-i-lawwama)*

In Sura al-Qiyama  the Qur'an mentions
"the self-accusing *nafs*".[Qur'an 
75:2 ] This is the
stage where "the conscience  is
awakened and the self accuses one for listening to one’s ego. One repents
and asks for forgiveness
."[10]Here
the
*nafs* is inspired by your heart, sees the results of your actions, agrees
with your brain, sees your weaknesses, and aspires to perfection.
[edit 
] The *nafs* at peace (*nafs-i-mutma'inna*)

In Sura al-Fajr  the Qur'an mentions "the
*nafs* at peace".[Qur'an 
89:27
] This is the ideal stage of ego for Sufis. On this level one is firm in
one’s faith and leaves bad manners
behind.[10]The
soul becomes tranquil, at peace.
[10]At
this stage Sufis have relieved themselves of all
materialism  and worldly problems
and are satisfied with the will of God.


On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lataif-e-sitta
>
> The Qur'an and Baha'i writings use the terms of these from time to time.
>
> Nafs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nafs
> Qalb http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qalb
> Ruh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruh
> Sirr
> Khafi
> Ahkfa
> Qalib
>
> How often are these terms used and in what contexts?
>
> The Nafs 

Re: CB Claims

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Isn't there another group that takes a "Shi'a" stance, and claims that the
"Guardian is in Occultation"?




On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 9:11 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> > Seems to me that one of your articles should at least touch on the claim
> > that various pretenders to the station of Guardian are legitimized thru'
> > being "adopted" into the Aghsan.  This has become, the last 15 years, a
> more
> > important argument, it appears to me, than the "President of the
> > International Council" argument.
>
> Dear Don,
>
> The 'adoption' argument is peculiar to the Jensenites and not shared
> by the Remeyites as a whole.
>
> warmest, Susan
>
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Re: at-Taqwa (Godconciousness)

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I was just going to say that "God-Consciousness" sounded very "Hindu" to me,
but I'm not really surprised because I feel that Islam and Hinduism actually
have a lot of commonalities despite their very outward differences.




On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 5:12 AM, Sen & Sonja  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqwa
> > Sawm and Taqwa are associated. Is there a Baha'i reference to Taqwa?
>
> Indeed there is:
>
> In the fourth Ishraq (splendor) of the Ishraqat (Tablet of Splendors)
> We have mentioned: "Every cause needeth a helper. In this Revelation
> the hosts which can render it victorious are the hosts of
> praiseworthy deeds and upright character. The leader and commander of
> these hosts hath ever been the fear of God (taqwa-ye allah), a fear
> that encompasseth all things, and reigneth over all things."
>
>(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 26)
>
> By God! This people have never been, nor are they now, inclined to
> mischief. Their hearts are illumined with the light of the fear of
> God (nur-e taqwa), and adorned with the adornment of His love.
>(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 122)
>
> Ye are the shepherds of mankind; liberate ye your flocks from the
> wolves of evil passions and desires, and adorn them with the ornament
> of the fear of God. (taqwa-ye allah
>(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 29)
>
> it behooveth every fair-minded person to succor Him Whom the world
> hath cast away and the nations abandoned, and to lay hold on piety
> and righteousness (taqwa).
>(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 35)
>
>
> The cities of knowledge and of understanding wept with such a weeping
> that the souls of the pious and of the God-fearing (ahl-e ... taqwa)
> were melted.
>(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 72)
>
>
> God-consciousness is a good translation of the concept: it is a pity
> that it is so hard to fit elegantly into a sentence:
> "the people of God-consciousness..."
> "the God-conscious ones"
> "The leader and commander of these hosts hath ever been God-
> consciousness..."
>
> The last of these works for us, but probably would not have worked
> for the more biblically educated audience of Shoghi Effendi's day,
> who were used to "fear of God" and had not been familiarized with
> "God-consciousness" by the Hare Krishna movement
>
> Sen
>
> --
> --
> Sen McGlinn   http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com
>
> All is to be yielded up, save only the *remembrance* of God;
>   all is to be dispraised, except His praise.
> Today, to this melody of the Company on high,
>   the world will leap and dance:
>  `Glory be to my Lord, the All-Glorious!'
>
> (Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, p. 93)
> --
> --
>
>
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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Not to mention they have been predicting a violent apocalypse for decades.
If they didn't have the word "Baha'i" in their name, I would have assumed
that they were just another American 'Christian' apocalyptic sect.



On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Susan Maneck  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> > Actually CB material isn't all negative. There are alot of attempts of
> > several groups to tie themselves into prophecies ie Bible, Apocrypha,
> > Qur'an, Hadith, etc.
>
> Dear Stephen,
>
> The only CB group I know of that spends a lot of energy trying to tie
> themselves in with the above are the Jensenite groups, I would have to
> disagree with you about them not being 'negative.' Without any proof
> whatsoever they frequently accuse Ruhiyyih Khanum of having murdered
> the Guardian!
>
> warmest, Susan
>
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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
*"There's also at least one site that claims to speak for Jewish Bahais
and is, I think, probably a dirty tricks scheme by the Iranian
government's anti-bahai agency. It is not really intended to deceive
western Bahais I think; it exists so that the anti-bahai propaganda
in Persian can quote it as evidence of Bahai links to Israel."*
**
It's the old "I create the source to prove you are evil, then use that
source to justify why I think you are evil" trick. It's quite sickening.




On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Sen & Sonja  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> The problem is not so much to avoid reading the sites, as to know
> what it is that you are reading, when people are trying to pass
> themselves off as something else.
>
> To make it doubly difficult, one of the "groups" (which may consist
> of one person with a bee in his bonnet) uses a photograph of the
> Bahai holy places on their sites, to give the impression that you are
> looking at "their" headquarters in Haifa.
>
> Clues to what's not what it seems:
> - references to the davidic kingship
> - claims to be or speak for the guardian
> - claims to be or speak for Hands of the Cause
> - names such as 'orthodox bahai'  / 'reformed bahai' / Bahais under
> the Provisions of the Covenant  (BUPC)
> - derogatory names for Bahais, such as "Haifans" or "heterodox'
> etc...
> - conspiracy theories (Ruhiyyah Khanum murdered Shoghi Effendi; the
> Hand of the Cause staged a coup... ) and disaster predictions (the
> world will be struck by a meteor on such-and-such a date).
>
> There's also at least one site that claims to speak for Jewish Bahais
> and is, I think, probably a dirty tricks scheme by the Iranian
> government's anti-bahai agency. It is not really intended to deceive
> western Bahais I think; it exists so that the anti-bahai propaganda
> in Persian can quote it as evidence of Bahai links to Israel.
>
> Sen
> --
> --
> Sen McGlinn   http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com
>
> All is to be yielded up, save only the *remembrance* of God;
>   all is to be dispraised, except His praise.
> Today, to this melody of the Company on high,
>   the world will leap and dance:
>  `Glory be to my Lord, the All-Glorious!'
>
> (Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, p. 93)
> --
> --
>
>
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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
It should take you a lot longer than a week to read most of his writings,
and more importantly, internalize them. This is your life, so I'm not
telling you what to do, but I would suggest to you to "slow down." This
isn't a race.




On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>  I'm currenty this week archively reading most of the writings of
> Abdu'l-Baha and comparing them to his Will & Testament.
>
>  --
> *From:* Sen & Sonja 
>
> *To:* Baha'i Studies 
> *Sent:* Tue, August 31, 2010 10:43:06 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker
> sites
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>  The problem is not so much to avoid reading the sites, as to know
> what it is that you are reading, when people are trying to pass
> themselves off as something else.
>
> To make it doubly difficult, one of the "groups" (which may consist
> of one person with a bee in his bonnet) uses a photograph of the
> Bahai holy places on their sites, to give the impression that you are
> looking at "their" headquarters in Haifa.
>
> Clues to what's not what it seems:
> - references to the davidic kingship
> - claims to be or speak for the guardian
> - claims to be or speak for Hands of the Cause
> - names such as 'orthodox bahai'  / 'reformed bahai' / Bahais under
> the Provisions of the Covenant  (BUPC)
> - derogatory names for Bahais, such as "Haifans" or "heterodox'
> etc...
> - conspiracy theories (Ruhiyyah Khanum murdered Shoghi Effendi; the
> Hand of the Cause staged a coup... ) and disaster predictions (the
> world will be struck by a meteor on such-and-such a date).
>
> There's also at least one site that claims to speak for Jewish Bahais
> and is, I think, probably a dirty tricks scheme by the Iranian
> government's anti-bahai agency. It is not really intended to deceive
> western Bahais I think; it exists so that the anti-bahai propaganda
> in Persian can quote it as evidence of Bahai links to Israel.
>
> Sen
> --
> --
> Sen McGlinn  http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com
>
> All is to be yielded up, save only the *remembrance* of God;
>   all is to be dispraised, except His praise.
> Today, to this melody of the Company on high,
>   the world will leap and dance:
>   `Glory be to my Lord, the All-Glorious!'
>
> (Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, p. 93)
> --
> --
>
>
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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Actually, I don't think Mirza Ahmad Sohrab was officially declared a
covenant-breaker either. Shoghi Effendi said he was a great enemy towards
the faith, but I haven't been able to find a reference where he was declared
a covenant-breaker. Someone more versed in the history would know better
than I, though.



On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>  > Clues to what's not what it seems:
>
> > - references to the davidic kingship
> > - claims to be or speak for the guardian
> > - claims to be or speak for Hands of the Cause
> > - names such as 'orthodox bahai'  / 'reformed bahai' / Bahais under
> > the Provisions of the Covenant  (BUPC)
> > - derogatory names for Bahais, such as "Haifans" or "heterodox'
> > etc...
> > - conspiracy theories (Ruhiyyah Khanum murdered Shoghi Effendi; the
> > Hand of the Cause staged a coup... ) and disaster predictions (the
> > world will be struck by a meteor on such-and-such a date).
>
> >That is a pretty good list, though I should mention that the founder
> >of the so-called Reformed Baha'is has never been officially declared a
> >Covenant breaker. He was simply removed from the rolls after he
> >threatened to sue any member of the Baha'i Institutions who attempted
> >to contact him.
>
> Ruth White and Mirza Ahmad Sohrab were declared CB. He gets his ideas from
> them.
>
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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
*"Recently at a Study Circle a new believer expressed concern as to whether
Baha'is
might be persecuted now that we have a "Muslim' as a president."*

I think it is concerning that the President has to "ease" the tension by
claiming that he's *not *a Muslim, which implies that there is somehow
something bad about being a Muslim. Like 'Muslim' is synonymous with 'evil',
'murderer', etc. I know that he doesn't think that.




On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> > Dee Hock is the founder and the former CEO of Visa International and has
> a
> > very good book called, "The Birth of the Chaotic Age".  He notes, "The
> > problem is never how to get new, innovative thoughts in your mind, but
> how
> > to get the old ones out."
> >
> > Problem with CBing materials is that they leave a permanent imprint in
> our
> > mind, bias our view and everything else we read is colored by that bias.
> > This not just true about CBer materials, but any sort of negative or
> attack
> > material.  For instance, if I read "Obama is a smoker", the thought of
> him
> > being a smoker (not that there's really anything wrong with being a
> smoker)
> > lingers on and colors everything else I read or hear about Obama.
>
> Dear Ahang,
>
> More maliciously, think of how this crazy notion that Obama is not
> really a US citizen has caught hold, largely a result of the internet.
> The fact that his birth certificate has been widely published on the
> internet as well, does not change the effect that these accusations
> have had on a significant portion of the population. Recently at a
> Study Circle a new believer expressed concern as to whether Baha'is
> might be persecuted now that we have a "Muslim' as a president. When I
> pointed out that Obama wasn't a Muslim, that he was a member of the
> United Church of Christ, she insisted, "Why hasn't he produced his
> birth certificate." Offering to show her the birth certificate on the
> internet did nothing to change her mind.
> In cyberspace, the more things get repeated the more they get believed
> regardless of their merits.
>
> As for Obama's smoking I'm rather amused by the image of him sneaking
> an occasional cigarette on some porch of the White House hoping
> neither his wife or a reporter catches him.
>
> warmest, Susan
>
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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Unitarian Universalism goes by the Congregationalist type of administration,
which means that the local congregation makes many of the administration
decisions of their community, even if they do have a "head" organization at
the top. They are more bottom-up than top-down. At the same time, they
accept anyone into their fold because it is not a *doctrinal* or *revelation
* based religion. One of the cool things about the UU church is that members
can form their own groups within the church, and hold meetings. Thus, you
can form a Unitarian Buddhist, Unitarian Zoroastrain, Unitarian Hindu, and
yes, even a Unitarian *Bahai* group. One of the perks of this is that these
groups can hold their meetings inside the UU church *free of charge*. I
don't want to be cynical, but I am thinking that at least part of the reason
why Eric Stetson is linking 'Unitarian Bahaism' with the Unitarian
Universalist Association, is because of the free office space so to speak.
Maybe that makes me wrong to assume what is another person's intentions.



On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>  I thought those were actual Unitarian Universalists. Due to there being a
> website now, even if he created it, Unitarian Universalists could be
> becoming Unitarian Baha'is. They do have a Yahoo group.
>
>
>
> Unitarian Universalist do tend to view they Unitarian Universalism as their
> primary religion and whatever else as secondary.
>
>
>
> A talk on Unitarian Universalism would require its own topic.
>
>
>
> Back to Unitarian Baha'is they believe Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Mirza
> Muhammad Ali.
>
>
>
> They believe that Abdu'l-Baha changing his succesor to Shoghi Effendi was
> superceding Baha'u'llah, that the religion is about Baha'u'llah and his
> writings, only Baha'u'llah's writings are sacred scripture, that no more
> anyrthing can be produced for another 1000 years atleast, etc.
>
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> > Ruth White and Mirza Ahmad Sohrab and Zimmer Hermann (this one
> iffy?) were
> > declared CB.
>
> Its Herman Zimmer, and yes he was declared a Covenant breaker.
>
> In regards to Ruth White and Herman Zimmer, Fred Glaysher has done
> more than steal their ideas. He set up bogus websites claiming to
> represent their long defunct organizations. He did that in regards to
> the Muhammad Ali as well. In so doing he could make it appear as
> though there are more divisions in the Baha'i community that currently
> exist. The fact is that neither Ruth White, Ahmad Sohrab, Herman
> Zimmer, or Muhammad Ali currently have any organization which follows
> them.
>
>
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Re: Conspiracy Thoeries and Recent New Events Align alot

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Conspiracies do exist in the world. There is evidence and proof to
demonstrate that, but there is a difference between a conspiracy *theory*,
and a *conspiracy* theory. The former is about searching for evidence and
actual facts about certain events and situations in order to find the truth,
and the latter is a *worldview *about how history itself works.
*Conspiracy*theories view the world as a binary state. There are
definite good guys and
definite bad guys. There is no gray area. There is a hidden Elite of evil
souls who want to globalize the world into a totalitarian dictatorship for
different reasons, depending on who is talking. For David Icke, they are
reptilian shapeshifters. For Alex Jones, they are "Nazis and Kabbalists."
For William Cooper, they were "socialists", "ufos" and "New Agers." The
problem with *conspiracy* theories (the conspiracy theory of history
itself), is that the world isn't that simple. Sometimes things just happen,
and there was no hidden hand orchestrating it or causing it to happen.
Conspiracy theories are also fundamentalist in that they don't allow for any
kind of dissent. If you question someone like Alex Jone's or David Icke's
research, they will just accuse you of "working for the Elites" themselves,
and thus your opinion doesn't count.



On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy_theory)
>
> I remember president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was pointed out as in league with
> George Bush as being parts of an orchestrated plot to take over the world.
> But, the more I looked into it the more plausible it became.
>
> http://www.taroscopes.com/miscellanous-pages/weapons.html
> http://www.taroscopes.com/miscellanous-pages/weapons-additional.html
>
> Any one familiar with quotes of MA?
>
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Re: Conspiracy Thoeries and Recent New Events Align alot

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Dear Gilberto,

I used two types of categories; conspiracy *theories *(i.e. the study and
research of actual conspiracies, and theorizing how they took place), and *
conspiracy* theories (i.e. seeing a conspiracy in every event in the history
of humanity, as being a plot by a group of few people/aliens/reptilians to
step-by-step take over the world.) I am not critical of the *theorizing* of
actual conspiracies that have and do take place, or the events that very
possibly could have been conspiracies. But I am critical of the notion that
everything which happens in this world, is being orchestrated by some hidden
hands of 30 people or something. Sometimes chaos just happens, sometimes
terrorists do just blow up a vegetable market for their own agenda (and not
the agenda of the Illuminati, Reptilians, etc.) There are different types of
conspiracy researchers, and I don't want the real theorists (Bill Weinberg,
Peter Werby, etc) to have a bad name because they are lumped in with the
same crowd that says Reptiles who live on the Moon are reciting Mantras all
day to make humanity feel stressed out and aggressive toward each other. The
two types of researchers live in a completely different world, in my view.

Salam Alaykum

"Conspiracies do exist in the world. There is evidence and proof
to demonstrate that"





On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 12:40 AM, Gilberto Simpson <
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I think it is weird when people try to dismiss conspiracy theories as
> a category. Every claim is either true or false on its own merits. The
> US government really has performed medical experiments on Blacks and
> Latinos. The CIA really has worked to overthrow different
> democratically elected governments (Mossadeq, Arbenz, Allende). There
> really are organizations  (like Skull and Bones, the Carlyle Group,
> etc.) which manage to bring together powerful people and
> decision-makers in ways which are not completely public or accountable
> (or straight-up secret). The RAND corporation really has been
> advocating that the the US support some kinds of Islam over others in
> the world.
>
> I agree with you that simplistic binary thinking is a problem but I'm
> not sure I would say it is a defining property of conspiracy theories.
> On the one hand you definitely have folks who think that the conflict
> between Democrats and Republicans is a fight between good and evil. On
> the other hand, there is probably somebody out there who views world
> events as the product of a complex, multi-front rivalry between the
> Reptillians, the Illuminati, the Catholic Church, the Circle of the
> Black Thorn, the Masons, the Priory of Sion, the Mafia, the
> Bildebergs, the Rothschilds,  the CIA and the elders of Zion. Also you
> have folks like Chomsky who don't invoke colorful villains with
> complex competing agendas but basically look at the world with a class
> perspective and basically look at US foreign policy as being
> manipulated by wealthy business interests.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Matt Haase 
> wrote:
> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> >
> > Conspiracies do exist in the world. There is evidence and proof to
> > demonstrate that, but there is a difference between a conspiracy theory,
> and
> > a conspiracy theory. The former is about searching for evidence and
> actual
> > facts about certain events and situations in order to find the truth, and
> > the latter is a worldview about how history itself works. Conspiracy
> > theories view the world as a binary state. There are definite good guys
> and
> > definite bad guys. There is no gray area. There is a hidden Elite of evil
> > souls who want to globalize the world into a totalitarian dictatorship
> for
> > different reasons, depending on who is talking. For David Icke, they are
> > reptilian shapeshifters. For Alex Jones, they are "Nazis and Kabbalists."
> > For William Cooper, they were "socialists", "ufos" and "New Agers." The
> > problem with conspiracy theories (the conspiracy theory of history
> itself),
> > is that the world isn't that simple. Sometimes things just happen, and
> there
> > was no hidden hand orchestrating it or causing it to happen. Conspiracy
> > theories are also fundamentalist in that they don't allow for any kind of
> > dissent. If you question someone like Alex Jone's or David Icke's
> research,
> > they will just accuse you of "working for the Elites" themselves, and
> thus
> > your opinion doesn't count.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Stephen Gray 
> wrote:
> >>

Re: 9/11 revisited

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
As far as "the government" actually physically setting up bombs to go off
right before planes they sent to be flown into the towers, no there isn't
any real good evidence for that at all. But there are some interesting
things about the tragedy. In 2000, a document released by the rightwing
Project for the New American Century talked its role in the Middle-East, and
strenghthing American prescence in the Middle-East. It said that America
would have to face a "new pearl harbor" to really get things going in that
region. There were also ignored intelligent reports stating that Bin Laden
was intending to attack the United States by using airplanes.


On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 4:45 AM, Firouz  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>  Dear friends,
>
> I see more people both Muslims and non-Muslims talk about 9/11 events after
> Ahmadinejad's recent trip to NY. I have received some video clips showing
> the claim of conspiracy theorists on why 9/11 event was the US government
> job, i.e. why building 7 collapsed, etc.
>
> Is there a well researched video clip or a scientific article that has
> studied various claims and prepared some good responses to these claims that
> could be shared to those who believe in such theories and answer their
> questions.
>
> Best regards,
> Firouz
>
>
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Re: What went Terribly Wrong? (was: Conspiracy Thoeries and Recent New Events Align alot)

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think this conversation is interesting. I'm not Sunni or Shi'a, but I
think both narratives have merit.

On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> > I would point out that in the history of Sunni-Shia polemics it is
> > actually very common for Shias to argue from Sunni sources.
> > Rhetorically it can come off as a neat trick
>
> Dear Gilberto,
>
> Is it a 'trick' or merely reflective of the fact that the evidence is
> on their side?
>
>  For
> > example Ghadeer Khum is in the Sunni hadith collections too and Sunnis
> > largely agree with Shias on the outward facts, but with a very
> > different understanding. In terms of the current discussion,
>
> In other words, they agree with the account which clearly demonstrates
> that Muhammad appointed Ali as His successor.
>
> > In any case, if we are trying to determine the Sunni position on a
> > matter you should actually quote positions from Sunni scholars not
> > just  cherry pick sunni hadith but ignore what Sunni ulema actually
> > believe.
>
>  I'm interested in the evidence not the way in which Sunnis attempt to
> dismiss it.
>
> > Allah have mercy on Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, he abhorred speaking ill
> > even of Yazid ibn Mu`awiya because the latter lived in one of the
> > centuries praised by our Holy Prophet,
>
> For the benefit of those Baha'is who are less familiar with Islam, let
> me point out that Ibn Hanbal was the founder of the most conservative
> school of Sunni Islam, the one the Wahhabis adhere to.
>
> Now let's deconstruct his statement.  He is not going to speak ill
> *even* of Yazid (which implies there is a good deal to speak evil of)
> because he is the son of Mu'awiya. And what does Mu'awiya have in his
> favor? Nothing, except for the fact he lived at the same time as the
> Prophet. This apparently means he doesn't have to live up to the same
> standards as the rest of us.
>  Hence Imam Abu Hanifa made it
> > part of the obligatory Muslim Creed in al-Fiqh al-Akbar: "We [Muslims]
> > do not mention any of his Companions except with goodness!" Do you
> > suppose he meant "whenever it suits us or is easy to do"?
>
> Okay, thank you very much for this evidence that Sunni Muslims aren't
> allowed to do any real historical analysis of this period of their
> history.
>
> > What is entailed by having good opinion of the Noble Companions of the
> > Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) is that if
> > they sinned they hastened to repentance;
>
> Notwithstanding all the evidence to the contrary.
>
> > There is scholarly consensus,
>
> So beware folks, Sunni scholars cannot be relied upon when it come so
> their early history because they are theologically committed to
> ignoring all the negatives.
>
> Do you even realize the implications of what you are saying?
>
> warmest, Susan
>
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Re: What went Terribly Wrong? (was: Conspiracy Thoeries and Recent New Events Align alot)

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think Sunni and Shi'a narratives both have merit, but fall short in
totality. For example, Shi'as are great at keeping a memory alive and of
inspiring people with sacred history. But from a historical perspective, the
world just doesn't work in "good guys/bad guys" with clearly defined lines
of good and evil. The world is more complicated than that. I side with 'Ali,
Hasan and Husayn over Mu'awiyya and Yazid any day. But it has been over a
thousand years, and this ancient conflict is still producing more conflict.
There has to come a time where people need to just let go and embrace the
present, and work toward the future. I mean, what is it going to look like
4,000 years from now and seeing people still getting mad at people who died
5,000 years ago? No one born within 900 years of that time period, were
involved in that conflict, so why keep stoking the fire? That's my criticism
of the overly hyper Shi'a narrative.

My criticism of the Sunni narrative is that does seem to whitewash the evil
that men did, and to simply ask those who were brutally damaged to just
"forgive and forget." It's easy to say that when one is on top, which Sunnis
have historically been. It reminds me of some White people who don't
understand why some minorities want to strongly identify with their
heritage. "I'm white, but you don't see me walking around with a Norwegian
flag on my t-shirt, and celebrating Norwegian festivals in America. This is
America, what is wrong with identifying with that?" When one is in the
majority, there is really no need to call for "solidarity" or
"preservation." Seeing as the Sunnis have been the majority of Muslims
throughout history, it is understandable that they would prefer to "move
forward" and "let the past stay in the past"because it's their ancestors
who did the real bad things. The same situation occurs in America over
slavery. "Why do black people keep insisting on reliving slavery. It's over!
Move on!"



On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Susan Maneck  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I see I made a number of mistakes here:
>
> > Yes, I would agree with that. I had in mind specifically the movement
> > coming from Ibn Abdu'l-Wahhab. which has its genesis in Egypt
>
> Obviously Ibn Abdu'l-Wahhab is from Arabia not Egypt. I was thinking
> ahead to the Salafi movement.
>
>  If John Esposito's analysis is correct all these movements
> > share a common genesis.
>
> It was John Voll, not John Esposito who did the isnad study linking
> all these revivalist movements together.  Included among these
> revivalists would be  Shaykh Ahmad Sirinidi and the Naqshabandi Sufis.
>
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Re: What went Terribly Wrong? (was: Conspiracy Thoeries and Recent New Events Align alot)

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Yes, I am making a distinction between the Shi'a and Baha'i view, because
they are slightly different. The Baha'i perspective has its roots in the
Shi'a view, but it departs in some important ways from it. For example, when
Quratulayn-Tahirih refused to mourn the martyrdom of Hussein, she did so
under the pretense that the 12th Imam/Qa'im/Mahdi was here and alive. Thus,
it was a time for celebration rather than mourning what is past.

I do realize that most Sunnis agree with 'Ali and the Family of the Prophet
over Mu'awiyya and Yazid. There are a few exceptions, such as Bilal Phillips
who depicts Mu'awiyya as a pious man who sincerely followed his conscience.
I personally have a hard time believing that. I don't understand how a
person could be so far removed from the clear utterances and actions of the
Prophet toward his family, and do so many things to harm them, and still
have good intentions while doing so. Having a difficult time understanding
why the Prophet would choose a successor among his own family instead of the
usual egalitarian method of resorting to a council of elders, is one thing.
But it's something else entirely to actively engage in acts of rebellion
against the Prophet's family, and furthermore justify it in the name of
Monotheism. As if Monotheism requires that you treat the family of one's own
Prophet with contempt.

I don't understand why I should have a sin-covering eye of Mu'awiyya when he
made it mandatory to curse 'Ali in all Mosques of his domain, for all five
prayers. He didn't seem to have a sin-covering eye of 'Ali, and 'Ali didn't
do anything wrong. On the other hand, 'Ali showed infinite patience and
reserve toward his foe who proved to view Islam in political rather than
religious terms. It might sound great for unity's sake to let bygones be
bygones, but I think it is dangerous to assume that anyone who did anything
bad still had good intentions in their heart. This notion that simply being
a companion of the Prophet absolves you of all wrong doing, seems rather
convenient to me, for its very construct seems to imply that there is a lot
of wrong doing that one could talk about. As Susan already mentioned,
Mu'awiyya literally converted to Islam at the last second. It is possible
that he had some quick epiphany, but from a historical perspective it
certainly looks like a pragmatic move on his part to escape execution, for
Islam was tolerant in terms of the times by allowing enemies to escape death
through conversion, something not done by other tribes with war captives.

I would never think that Sunnis are pro-killing Hussein. I agree that is
crazy. I am just uncomfortable with this notion that I have to assume
everyone who did something bad, had good intentions in their heart. How can
a person "righteously" hate 'Ali, Hasan, and Hussein? My mind just can not
grasp the concept. Perhaps that is the "Shi'a" in me.



On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Gilberto Simpson <
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Matt Haase 
> wrote:
> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> >
> > I think Sunni and Shi'a narratives both have merit, but fall short in
> > totality.
>
> Are you making some distinction between the Shia view and the Bahai view?
>
> For example, Shi'as are great at keeping a memory alive and of
> > inspiring people with sacred history. But from a historical perspective,
> the
> > world just doesn't work in "good guys/bad guys" with clearly defined
> lines
> > of good and evil. The world is more complicated than that. I side with
> 'Ali,
> > Hasan and Husayn over Mu'awiyya and Yazid any day.
>
> I hope you realize that for Sunnis, Muawiyya and Yazid were wrong?!
>
> > My criticism of the Sunni narrative is that does seem to whitewash the
> evil
> > that men did, and to simply ask those who were brutally damaged to just
> > "forgive and forget." It's easy to say that when one is on top, which
> Sunnis
> > have historically been.
>
> What you are saying doesn't ring true at all with me. If you are
> talking about the original events, Ali vs. Muawyyia, Yazid vs.
> Hussain, then Sunnis and Shias actually AGREE about who was right and
> who was wrong. It's not as if ANYBODY is saying killing Hussein was
> some wonderful thing. That's just crazy.
>
> And "forgive and forget" seems totally out of place. Of course,
> remember history. Don't forget. Nobody is saying otherwise.  But the
> people who did the deeds and the people who suffered from them aren't
> around anymore so forgiveness is moot.
>
> O

Re: Arius and the Bahai Writings was Re: What went Terribly Wrong? (was: Conspiracy Thoeries and Recent New Events Align alot)

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I would have to agree with Minhaj about Arius. I don't think he taught an
"Islamic" view of Jesus more so than he believed that Christ was like a
"lesser divinity" of God. On the other hand, the Baha'i teachings (from my
perspective) teach that God is the only Divine Being and that the
Manifestations of God reflect His light in the best manner possible
according to human standards.


On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> >
> > I requested his source on Arianism.
>
> Ah, I must have missed that.
>
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Re: Arius and the Bahai Writings was Re: What went Terribly Wrong? (was: Conspiracy Thoeries and Recent New Events Align alot)

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Just some stuff I picked up over time. I think it would be somewhat
problematic from a Muslim perspective to claim that Arius's teachings were
in line with Islamic beliefs, unless one believes that the Qur'an is the
"created" word of God as opposed to the "eternal" word of God. Since Jesus
is regarded as the "Word" in Christianity, the closest comparison in Islam
would be the Qur'an. As I'm sure you know, there was a great debate in Islam
during the early period over the issue of the Qur'an's "createdness" or
"eternal" nature. The Mu'tazalites taught that God created the Qur'an,
whereas scholars such as Ahmad ibn Hanbal believed that it was eternal. Most
Muslims came to the consensus that the Qur'an is the "eternal" word of God.
Since Jesus is roughly the "Qur'an" of Christianity, and the Qur'an is
roughly the "Jesus" of Islam (not a perfect analogy, I know), would it not
make sense to agree with the people who claimed the "Word" was eternal and
not created? I'm not intending to argue, I'm just curious.

On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 7:02 PM, Gilberto Simpson <
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Where are you getting your information about what Arius believed?
> Also, I'm not sure exactly where you are coming from since the Bahai
> faith on the one hand would affirm the Quranic teaching on Jesus while
> at the same time affirming that "sonship" and "divinity" of Jesus so
> I'm not exactly sure how you are disagreeing with Arius.
>
> (from Wikipedia) according to Alexander (so a hostile witness) what
> Arius taught was the following:
>
> That God was not always the Father, but that there was a period when
> he was not the Father; that the Word of God was not from eternity, but
> was made out of nothing; for that the ever-existing God (‘the I
> AM’—the eternal One) made him who did not previously exist, out of
> nothing; wherefore there was a time when he did not exist, inasmuch as
> the Son is a creature and a work. That he is neither like the Father
> as it regards his essence, nor is by nature either the Father’s true
> Word, or true Wisdom, but indeed one of his works and creatures, being
> erroneously called Word and Wisdom, since he was himself made of God’s
> own Word and the Wisdom which is in God, whereby God both made all
> things and him also. Wherefore he is as to his nature mutable and
> susceptible of change, as all other rational creatures are: hence the
> Word is alien to and other than the essence of God; and the Father is
> inexplicable by the Son, and invisible to him, for neither does the
> Word perfectly and accurately know the Father, neither can he
> distinctly see him. The Son knows not the nature of his own essence:
> for he was made on our account, in order that God might create us by
> him, as by an instrument; nor would he ever have existed, unless God
> had wished to create us.
>
>
> obviously the son/father language is problematic for Muslims but it is
> clear from the above that the Son was made not begotten.
>
> On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 6:50 PM, Matt Haase 
> wrote:
> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> >
> > I would have to agree with Minhaj about Arius. I don't think he taught an
> > "Islamic" view of Jesus more so than he believed that Christ was like a
> > "lesser divinity" of God. On the other hand, the Baha'i teachings (from
> my
> > perspective) teach that God is the only Divine Being and that the
> > Manifestations of God reflect His light in the best manner possible
> > according to human standards.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
> >>
> >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> >> >
> >> > I requested his source on Arianism.
> >>
> >> Ah, I must have missed that.
> >>
> >> __
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Re: The Future of Religion

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
It wasn't a politically loaded word until Glenn Beck used the phrase to
imply everything evil known to man, about a year ago.



On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>  Why did the UHJ use the term social justice? The word is politically
> loaded. Even though everyone is okay with a society based on justice. The
> term has political meanings rather than that.
>
>  --
> *From:* Susan Maneck 
> *To:* Baha'i Studies 
> *Sent:* Wed, October 27, 2010 10:24:22 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: The Future of Religion
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> It might be useful to review the One Common Faith document in this
> connection:
>
> http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/bic/OCF/
>
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Re: The Future of Religion

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
*"At the same time Abdu'l-Baha insist that complete economic equality is
neither possible or desirable. He recognized that people need
incentives."*
**
I would also add that most Socialists would probably agree with that
assessment. This notion that "the Left", "Socialists", "Marxists" want every
person to have *exact equal amount of income*, seems to be
conservative propaganda at worst and naivity at best. Perhaps a few people
think that is a good idea, but I seriously doubt that most people calling
themselves Socialists believe that every person should have the exact same
amount of cash in their banking accounts for their to be justice. What they
do believe is eliminating the "extremes", as you say. It's not like there is
no such thing as a wealthy Socialist.




On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:38 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> > There is difference between means and ends. For example, there are so
> called
> > social justice passages in the Bible. They refer to religion permeating a
> > society so much that people's charity would be enough to alleviate
> poverty.
> > Jesus and the prophets talks to ordinary people to give to charity not
> the
> > gov'ts. Judeo-Christian-Islamic justice implies widespread charity in a
> > society,
> > tithing (10% JC or 2.5-20% I), and voluntary offerings.
>
> Dear Stephen,
>
> I would say this is true in regards to Jesus who was not terribly
> concerned with how governments functioned. According to Acts of the
> Apostles, however, in the early church Christians shared all things in
> common, which goes far beyond charity. In any case, the prophets
> condemned the government and the priesthood for poverty, not people's
> lack of charity. . hey  prohibited practices like usury that led to
> such poverty in the strongest terms.Taxations aimed primarily at the
> peasant farmer were condemned as well. Our own bankruptcy laws in this
> country are based on biblical principles although  recent laws have
> eroded these
>
> Now, in regards to charging interest Baha'u'llah does annul the
> Biblical and Qur'anic prohibitions and states that a reasonable amount
> of interest may be charged (with the House of Justice deciding what is
> reasonable.) Usury or exorbitant interest  charged to the poor is
> still condemned. While the Huqullah is entirely voluntary and cannot
> be coerced, Abdu'l-Baha also spoke of a graduated income tax. I don't
> get the impression that this is voluntary.
>
> At the same time Abdu'l-Baha insist that complete economic equality is
> neither possible or desirable. He recognized that people need
> incentives.
> >
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alms
> >
> > In Judiasm, Tzedekah means both charity and justice (as well as fairness
> and
> > righteousness).
>
> Which certainly suggest that justice must include carrying for the poor.
>
> > Who's to say an increase in the job market, more self-employment, more
> > independent contractors, more investors, more business owners isn't the
> > solution?
>
> I'm sure it is part of the solution. One of the reasons industrial
> capitalism was never as exploitive in the US as it was in England or
> Europe is because during the time of the Industrial Revolution
> American workers  always had an alternative which  their European
> counterparts did not posses. The ready availability of land meant they
> could always had the alternative to be self-employed (as farmers)
> rather than work for the big corporations. Unfortunately that is no
> longer an option for most people. Unbridled capitalism today  tends to
> favor the big multi-nationals, not small business and self-employment.
> Also, without affordable health care self-employment is not really an
> option for most people.
>
> >
> > Really, the issue requires us to reflect on how wealth is created.
>
> Contrary to common opinion Adam Smith never saw a 'social welfare'
> state as incompatible with the 'invisible hand' of the free market.
> His protest in the *The Wealth of Nations* was a condemnation of
> mercantilism, which had led to colonialism. If you read his earlier
> work  *The Theory of Moral Sentiments.*
>
> Adam Smith vigorously defended such public services as free education
> and poverty relief,
> calling for  greater freedom for the those  who receives support from
> the state, unlike the
> punitive Poor Laws which existed at the time. He also acknowledged the
> importance of interventions on behalf of the poor and the underdogs of
> society that might result from a free market system He stated the
> following principle:.  "When the regulation, therefore, is in favour
> of the workmen, it is always just and equitable; but it is sometimes
> otherwise when in favour of the masters."
>
> Adam Smith, like Abdu'l-Baha supported both the profit motive and
> social values which transcended it. Both believed these values should
> be expressed, not merely in acts of charity but in the policies of the
> state.
>
>
>

Re: The Future of Religion

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Stephen, I take issue with your claim that "most" Western Muslims view Islam
through the Qur'an-Alone. That has not been my experience at all, nor has
any of my research pointed to that. The Qur'anites or Qu'ran-Aloners
comprise a very small group of people, and are very literalistic in their
reading of scripture. They claim to be "free-thinkers", but they are not.
All of their views on anything come from a literal reading of the Qur'an:
Far from what I call a "free-thinker." If anything, the Western experience
of Islam has been that of Post-Islamic or Extra-Islamic Sources. The first
published translation of the Qur'an in the United States, was from the
Ahmadiyyas. They were the firs Americant Muslim door-to-door preachers, and
most of whom they converted were African Americans. In the early 20th
century, a man going by the title "The Prophet Noble Drew Ali" wrote a book
called the "Circle Seven Koran", which he claimed was a
post-Qur'anic revelation from God as well as a divulgence of esoteric
secrets that he learned while on pilgrimage in Egypt. He taught that Black
people were originally Moors from Morocco, and that their true religion was
Islam - his Islam. He told them that once they joined his religion (The
Moorish Science Temple of America), they would have dual citizenship with
all of the Muslim countries of the world; especially Morocco.

One of his followers was  W.D. Fard, who later went on to form the Nation of
Islam. Using some aspects of the Moorish Science Temple and his own
teachings, Fard created a religion whereby he taught his followers that
Black people were originally Muslims in religion (borrowed from Noble Drew
Ali), that they came from the tribe of "Shabazz" and that the Black man is
the Original Man, and Original God. Black men are all Gods, but the supreme
Black man is Allah - there can only be one Allah at one time - and that role
naturally was filled by W.D. Fard (although there was some debate early on
that W.D. Fard never claimed to be Allah or even a Prophet.) The Nation of
Islam would later go on to teach that God was not a "spirit", but was a
human being - specifically a Black male. God could only be a human being
because people can only relate to what their five senses tell them.

Most of these early Muslim groups did not even use the Qur'an as a source of
doctrine, except the Ahmadiyyas. But they were not mainstream due to their
teaching that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was the Messiah, and a minor Prophet who
revealed writings "inspired by God" (but was not actual revelation
per-Qur'an.) In the other part of the West, Great Britian, France, Sweden,
etc, some of the early Western converts to Islam were also Perennialists.
Perennialists were Universalists in the sense that they believed mankind had
an "original religion" going back to early times, and that all of the
existing religions expressed parts of that original religion of mankind.
Thus, people such as Rene Guenon who was a very devout Muslim, didn't
necessarily view Islam in the same manner that a scholar at Al-Azhar would.
I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying that some extra-Islamic sources
played a part in the introduction of a Western Islam, so to speak.





On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Gilberto Simpson <
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I'm really confused by what connection you see between Quran-only
> folks and Anarchists?
>
> Also, isn't the Bahai faith more "Protestant" than "Catholic" (i.e.
> emphasizing the Writings alone, careful to not use pilgrim notes or
> the "interpretations of men")
>
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Stephen Gray  wrote:
> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> >
> > Islam tends to be complicated by the issue of Hadith. Alot of Westerners
> > (including Western Muslims) tend to view Islam solely through the Quran.
> > Sola scriptura is something that happens to various religion when people
> > want to discard fallible human traditions ie Karaite Judaism,
> Protestantism,
> > Qur'an alone Islam, Triratna Buddhist Community, Arya Samaj, etc.
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_and_Islam
> >
> > Alot of people think Islam (the brands common in the Middle East) is
> > responsible and/or compliant to the authoritarian regimes there.
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_and_religion
> >
>
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Re: Devout Religiousity

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think the term "devout" is tricky, unless there is a framework for the
word to have meaning. For example, which of the two people would you
consider more devout? A man with no facial hair, wears a suit to work -
holds fundamentalist views of religion. Or a man who grows a beard for
religious reasons, wears "traditional" religious clothing whenever he can -
is very progressive and liberal in his views of religion. How can anyone
judge who is more devout than the other?



On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 3:57 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>  How devout is devout? Religionists tend to be broken into three
> categories of followers: laity, devout devotees, clergy/monastics.
>
> I will give an example of this negleacted middle category.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up%C4%81saka_and_Up%C4%81sik%C4%81
>
> That was the only example I can find because laity is usually the first
> category with some rare instacnes of second category.
>
> It is stratified with various levels sometimes.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratimoksha
>
> Thet range from widely depending on level of responsibility one undertakes
> oneself with.
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Precepts
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C4%ABla
>
> It's done on a daily basis. So statue could fluctuate on a daily basis in
> theory. Technically, non-practicing is a below the minimum group that
> comprises anyone who identifies with a religion or its accosition, but fails
> to meet a minimal threshold for official membership.  So, what would set
> some laity up to devout devotee status in religion not that systematized?
>
> The Baha'i Faith has no clergy/monastic category, therefore it has two
> rather than three. What pratices would cause a Baha'i to qualify for devout
> devotee status?
>
> A devout devotee of Buddhism is someone who takes the most strict
> Pratimoksha avialable to laity each and every day: keeping all five pecepts,
> pure conduct, and wearing robes. The second most stirct is that without the
> robe requirement. The third most strict is just five precepts daily which is
> the definition of laity. You also have the option of only taking x out of 5,
> which means some precepts in all honesty you know you won't/can't/etc follow
> and won't try. The least strict is just taking refuge, which is nonminal.
> Non-practicing is not even taking refuge. Purity of conduct with or without
> robes seems to be the main difference, but I'm not an expert.
>
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Re: Devout Religiousity

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Judaism is not a proseltyzing religion due to its tolerance of other faiths,
in my view. To be a Jew is to not only adopt a religion, but also a culture
associated with a specific ethnic group of people - the Hebrews. For that
reason, Jews do not seek out converts because they don't believe a person of
another ethnicity with their own culture, should have to discard their own
traditions for Jewish culture. That is why being a "righteous gentile"
is good enough in the view of Judaism.

On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Susan Maneck  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> > Also, the rabbis (e.g. Maimonides) have come up with an itemized list
> > of 613 commandments in the Torah. The 10 commandments are only
> > "special" because they were described as miraculously written in
> > stone. What is kind of funny to me is that the text pretty clearly
> > directs the commandments to the Jews specifically "I am the Lord your
> > God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of
> > slavery; " so they aren't really for Gentiles anyway. According to
> > Judaism, the Universal commandments intended for everyone are the 7
> > commandments of Noah. (no blasphemy, no idolatry, no murder, no theft,
> > no sexual immorality, no tearing the limb from a live animal and/or no
> > eating blood, and then setting up a system of courts to enforce the
> > first sex commandments)
>
> That's correct.
> >
> > (so i guess gentiles get to lie and dishonor their parents)
>
> Lying is not mentioned in the Ten Commandments anyhow. What is
> prohibited is bearing false witness, i.e. perjury, something much more
> limited than lying.
>
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Re: Religion and Women

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
*"Sure, and the same is true of Islam... both in terms of how Muslims
understand Islamic general roles, or, in this case, how non-Muslims at
times go too far in attributing problematic gender roles to Islam per
se. As I've said to you before, if you really believe that God is
merciful and just, and if you really believe that the Quran comes from
God, then it should be possible to follow the Quran and be
compassionate and just to women."*

As a Muslim, I agree with you. But I think I understand where Susan
is coming from in regards to her own religion's view. The Baha'i Faith (in
my understanding) is a Dispensationalist religion - whereby it is believed
that God sort of "took" His/Her Spirit away from the most previous
revelation (Islam), and placed it in the hands of the Baha'i Faith.
Therefore, all spiritual progress that has since been made by other
religions is to really be credited to the Baha'i Faith for being the kind of
"command center" of the religious universe, that is sending out inspiration
to the rest of the religious world. Hence, progress made in other religions
is not to be credited to those religions themselves, but to the Baha'i
Faith. That is why some Baha'is tend to gloss over the changes and reforms
that other religions are going under, because it is believed that a true
practice of older religions would ultimately lead to very bad things.

You can also look at it like a business owner. The Baha'i Faith would be a
very kind business executive who wishes for his competitors success in their
endeavors, but will still compete for buying customers nonetheless.
Therefore, he/she can't excessively praise their competition to the point
that people may go to their competitors. I personally have no problem in
saying that the Baha'i Faith has brought some progressive teachings to the
world of religion, such as an universal auxiliary language, encouragement of
developing skills in the arts and sciences, promoting reading and writing
intelligence, the equality of the sexes, the universality of human beings,
the promotion of concord between religions. What irks me, though, is when
some Baha'is say that none of the other religions have these teachings,
which seems to contradict the whole idea of promoting concord between the
religions - because it's basically saying "let's get along everyone. I'm
better than all of you", in my view. But maybe that is an emotional rather
than rational view of mine.

Salam




On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 1:03 AM, Gilberto Simpson  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 12:44 AM, Susan Maneck  wrote:
> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> >> Wow, that's a really insulting ad hominem counter-argument which is
> >> really irrelevant to what was said.
> >
> > It is not an issue of being ad hominem.
>
> Perhaps you didn't intend it this way, but the basic form of your
> argument was to say that Naison was wrong because he was echoing
> Muslim arguments. And you didn't give any other specific reason for
> the argument not being valid. That seems like a pretty standard ad
> hominem argument.
>
>  If we are in fact not saying
> > anything different about the roles of women and men than Christians
> > and Muslims then we can't really say we are making any progress when
> > it comes to equality.
>
> Progress doesn't have to be just in  terms of the formal law (this
> book vs. that book) but it can also be made in terms of the social
> reality. As time goes on, all societies (Muslim, Christian, Bahai
> etc.) are making progress in terms of women's equality. You don't have
> to frame it as a Bahai vs. Islam argument.
>
> Also, I've said this before but there are certainly issues where
> "progress" isn't monotonic in a simple-minded way. For example, why
> would God prohibit pork under Judaism, permit it under Christianity,
> prohibit it under Islam, and then permit it under the Bahai faith
> again?
>
>
> >
> >  And it is only
> >> natural that a thoughtful Bahai would want to try to articulate some
> >> reasons those distinctions are made.
> >
> > Perhaps it is. But what I see happening is that all too often is that
> > the very few distinctions made in our Writings are made into an excuse
> > to continue inequalities in all sorts of areas which are not
> > warranted.
>
> Sure, and the same is true of Islam... both in terms of how Muslims
> understand Islamic general roles, or, in this case, how non-Muslims at
> times go too far in attributing problematic gender roles to Islam per
> se. As I've said to you before, if you really believe that God is
> merciful and just, and if you really believe that the Quran comes from
> God, then it should be possible to follow the Quran and be
> compassionate and just to women.
> >
>
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Re: Religion and Women

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Dear Iskandar,

Of course we all have reasons why we choose a particular path over others,
and that they speak to us more fully than the others - hence why we identify
ourselves as such. I think it is possible for one to do that without being
supremacist. For example, I don't believe the Baha'i Faith is an "evil"
religion or that its adherents are "apostates" from Islam. My reasons for
identifying with Islam are complex and many, I couldn't possibly explain
them adequately in an email forum message. But an important reason is
Islam's diversity, that there are many strands of thought, theology, and
philosophy in Islam - sometimes to the point that it appears that they are
different religions altogether. I also have felt that I had a personal
calling to Islam that I did not have with the Baha'i Faith. But none of that
proves Islam is superior to the Baha'i Faith, or vice versa.

*"If it irks you, so be it; you irk atheists, Jews, Christians, Buddhists,
etc. And please don't tell me that those other religions don't have the true
or authentic scripture nonsense. That's just bull. *
**
I want you to remember that comment the next time someone uses the Baha'is
as a bad example, or insults your beloved Faith in anyway, and tell yourself
"so be it. I irk them." I never said anything about other religions not
having authentic scriptures. I would be careful saying it is "bull",
considering Shoghi Effendi said this about Buddhist scriptures;

*Regarding Hinduism and Buddhism, Shoghi Effendi says that "we cannot be
sure of the scriptures of Buddha and Krishna" (*Lights of Guidance,* 2d ed.,
503), and that no one possesses the Buddha's "authentic writings" ("Buddha,
Krishna, Zoroaster and Related Subjects," 21). Shoghi Effendi often advised
Baha'is to turn to historians and religious scholars in order to learn about
Hinduism and Buddhism (Ibid., 19, 20, 21; *Lights of Guidance,* 1st ed.,
382).*
**
http://bahai-library.com/encyclopedia/scripture.html

I did not present that to start a fight with you, it's just that it seems
like any time myself or Gilberto express any concern over how Islam is being
insulted in some manner, you basically tell us that we have no right to
express concern - and that it's those bad Muslims in the East that are
persecuting Baha'is - therefore we have no reason to complain. Truth be
told, I let most things slide, and when I do finally express a concern, I
never want it to turn into a debate that eats up the main topic at hand.

Allahu Abha


On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 10:18 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>  Dear Gilberto and Matt:
>
> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:28 AM, Gilberto Simpson <
> gilberto.simp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> Yes, I think we understand one another.
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 1:46 AM, Matt Haase 
>> wrote:
>> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> >
>> > "Sure, and the same is true of Islam... both in terms of how Muslims
>> > understand Islamic general roles, or, in this case, how non-Muslims at
>> > times go too far in attributing problematic gender roles to Islam per
>> > se. As I've said to you before, if you really believe that God is
>> > merciful and just, and if you really believe that the Quran comes from
>> > God, then it should be possible to follow the Quran and be
>> > compassionate and just to women."
>> >
>> > As a Muslim, I agree with you. But I think I understand where Susan
>> > is coming from in regards to her own religion's view. The Baha'i Faith
>> (in
>> > my understanding) is a Dispensationalist religion - whereby it is
>> believed
>> > that God sort of "took" His/Her Spirit away from the most previous
>> > revelation (Islam), and placed it in the hands of the Baha'i Faith.
>> > Therefore, all spiritual progress that has since been made by other
>> > religions is to really be credited to the Baha'i Faith for being the
>> kind of
>> > "command center" of the religious universe, that is sending out
>> inspiration
>> > to the rest of the religious world. Hence, progress made in other
>> religions
>> > is not to be credited to those religions themselves, but to the Baha'i
>> > Faith. That is why some Baha'is tend to gloss over the changes and
>> reforms
>> > that other religions are going under, because it is believed that a true
>> > practice of older religions would ultimately lead to very bad things.
>> >
>> > You can al

Re: Religion and Women

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
There are obvious physiological differences between male and female, but I
would be cautious to set up definite, unchanging laws that dictate the sexes
behaviors. Statements like "this is what a man does", "this is what a woman
does", make me cringe, because we are all individuals at heart. We have
certain DNA encoding that steer some of our goals, yes, but we also have a
soul or spirit and a personality that is our own.

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Re: Baha'is in My Backyard (Movie)

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I found it to be somewhat of a satirical mockumentary. I'm not sure if that
was their intention starting out, but that's how it came together imo.



On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 3:01 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>  http://bahairants.com/full-movie-bahais-in-my-backyard-382.html
>
> I just recently found out about this movie and Israelis feeling about the
> Baha'i World Faith.
>
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Re: Eid Al-Adha

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Thank You. Pre-emptive happy Qawl Feast to you.




On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
> Happy Eid Al-Adha (commonly known as Eid ghorbAAn in Persian) to all my
> Muslim friends; may all receive Divine blessings.
>
> Best regards,
> Iskandar
>
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Re: Grave Influence

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I don't know how you are defining the term "radical." Quite a few of these
people on the list come from the "Left", so is that how you are defining it?
Would you also refer to certain people associated with the "Right" as
radicals?




On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>  http://www.worldviewweekend.com/secure/store/product.php?ProductID=1164
>
> Saul Alinsky, Karl Marx, John Dewey, John Maynard Keynes, Aldous Huxley,
> Charles Darwin, Friedrich Nietzsche, Margaret Sanger, William James, Alice
> Bailey, Helen Schucman, Sigmund Freud, Alfred Kinsey, Benjamin Bloom, B.F.
> Skinner, The Frankfurt School, Soren Kierkegaard, Julius Wellhausen,
> Christopher Columbus Langdell, Betty Friedan and Roger Baldwin
>
> 21 Radicals
>
>
> http://www.worldviewtube.com/video.php/videoid-4369/Brannon-Howse/Brannon-Howse
>  Karl
> Marx
>
>
> http://www.worldviewtube.com/video.php/videoid-4368/Brannon-Howse/Brannon-Howse
>  Saul
> Alinsky
>
> http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-tube/video.php?videoid=4367 Alice
> Bailey
>
> I was surfing the web and stumbled on this. I already knew about John
> Maynard Keynes and Karl Marx. What are your views of how radicals have
> changed society? Also, I have a positive view of one, Soren Kierkegaard.
>
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Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
What I find interesting about this movement is that it is like holding a
mirror to some Baha'is in regards to what they say about other religions.
Some Baha'is tell followers of older religions that the scriptures are not
meant to be taken literally, especially in regards to passages that
seemingly claim a particular Prophet is the "last" Prophet. What I find
interesting about Maitreya, is that he uses the same argument against
Baha'is. Whereas the Baha'i Writings teach that a Manifestation of God will
not appear for atleast 1,000 years after Baha'u'llah's own declaration of
being one, Maitreya says to the Baha'is, "It's not meant to be taken
literally. You are doing the same thing that the followers of older
religions have done", whereupon Baha'is insist that they are not and claim a
kind of exceptionalism; which is what we all do when confronted with this
kind of issue. If anything, I think new religious movements in general act
as a test to make us more humble in regards to people who follow older
religions, because someone may pose the same arguments to us some day.



On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> http://www.maitreya.org/
>
> Joseph Emmanuel of the Mission of Maitreya claims 
> to be the Maitreya Buddha, as well as a major prophet of God who
> purportedly fulfills prophecies from the Old Testament, New Testament,
> Koran, Baha'i scriptures and eastern 
> scriptures.[18]Perhaps
>  the most prominent example of Emmanuel's claims to being the
> Maitreya is the fact that his main teaching seeks to unify the world's
> religions by means of showing how each religion corresponds to one of seven
> "seals".[19]His
>  use of the term "seal" is a reference to a central tenet of Christian
> eschatological belief described in the Bible, in which it is predicted that
> Christ would return and open a book sealed with "seven seals" (Rev 
> 5:5).
> The Mission of Maitreya also makes claims that link Emmanuel's teaching of
> seven seals to Buddhist tradition. According to Buddhist Scriptures, the
> Maitreya Buddha will "take seven steps forward, and where he puts down his
> feet a jewel or lotus will spring 
> up."[20]
> [21]Emmanuel
>  was originally a student of the yoga teacher P.R.
> Sarkar  in India, who
> founded Ananda Marga , and
> while in this organization, Emmanuel was given the spiritual name
> "Maitreya." This has been cited as further evidence by the Mission of
> Maitreya that Joseph Emmanuel is the true Maitreya.
>
> I was surfing through Wikipedia and found this.
>
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Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
But that's my whole point. Even if it is obvious to you, there could be
someone else out there who will "symbolically" interpret a clearly literal
verse, even it is so literal as to say "this verse is to be interpreted
literally." They will say, "define 'literally.' :-)

That is how the followers of all religions feel when someone new comes
along, and challenges ther exclusivity. "No, no. It clearly says my guy is
the last Prophet", whereas the new one says "yes, but 'last' can mean many
things." I'm not challenging Baha'is on this, because I recognize the same
thing within my own faith.




On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 7:20 PM, Adib Masumian wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> Whereas the Baha'i Writings teach that a Manifestation of God will not
> appear for atleast 1,000 years after Baha'u'llah's own declaration of being
> one, Maitreya says to the Baha'is, "It's not meant to be taken literally.
> You are doing the same thing that the followers of older religions have
> done"
>
> That might be a more viable argument if Baha'u'llah hadn't unequivocally
> declared the following to this effect in verse 37 of the Aqdas:
>
> Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is
> deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all
> created things.
>
> Adib
>
>  On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Matt Haase wrote:
>
>>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>
>>
>> What I find interesting about this movement is that it is like holding a
>> mirror to some Baha'is in regards to what they say about other religions.
>> Some Baha'is tell followers of older religions that the scriptures are not
>> meant to be taken literally, especially in regards to passages that
>> seemingly claim a particular Prophet is the "last" Prophet. What I find
>> interesting about Maitreya, is that he uses the same argument against
>> Baha'is. Whereas the Baha'i Writings teach that a Manifestation of God will
>> not appear for atleast 1,000 years after Baha'u'llah's own declaration of
>> being one, Maitreya says to the Baha'is, "It's not meant to be taken
>> literally. You are doing the same thing that the followers of older
>> religions have done", whereupon Baha'is insist that they are not and claim a
>> kind of exceptionalism; which is what we all do when confronted with this
>> kind of issue. If anything, I think new religious movements in general act
>> as a test to make us more humble in regards to people who follow older
>> religions, because someone may pose the same arguments to us some day.
>>
>>
>>
>>  On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Stephen Gray wrote:
>>
>>>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>>
>>> http://www.maitreya.org/
>>>
>>> Joseph Emmanuel of the Mission of Maitreya <http://www.maitreya.org/>claims 
>>> to be the Maitreya Buddha, as well as a major prophet of God who
>>> purportedly fulfills prophecies from the Old Testament, New Testament,
>>> Koran, Baha'i scriptures and eastern 
>>> scriptures.[18]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya#cite_note-Prophecies_of_Maitreya-17>Perhaps
>>>  the most prominent example of Emmanuel's claims to being the
>>> Maitreya is the fact that his main teaching seeks to unify the world's
>>> religions by means of showing how each religion corresponds to one of seven
>>> "seals".[19]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya#cite_note-Seven_Seals-18>His
>>>  use of the term "seal" is a reference to a central tenet of Christian
>>> eschatological belief described in the Bible, in which it is predicted that
>>> Christ would return and open a book sealed with "seven seals" (Rev 
>>> 5:5<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%205&version=NIV>).
>>> The Mission of Maitreya also makes claims that link Emmanuel's teaching of
>>> seven seals to Buddhist tradition. According to Buddhist Scriptures, the
>>> Maitreya Buddha will "take seven steps forward, and where he puts down his
>>> feet a jewel or lotus will spring 
>>> up."[20]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya#cite_note-Buddhist_Prophecies_Website-19>
>>> [21]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya#cite_note-Buddhist_Scriptures-20>Emmanuel
>>>  was originally a student of the yoga teacher P.R.
>>> Sarkar <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prabhat_Ranjan

Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Peace,

I think I started the debate (it was by accident, actually) by saying that
some (not all) Baha'is use the same type of argument against Muslims,
Christians, Jews, that this Maitreya person uses against Baha'is and others,
i.e. the verses claiming finality of prophethood, sonship, christhood are
not meant to be taken literally. Granted, the Baha'i Faith only has a 1,000
year restriction before the advent of future Manifestations, but I thought
the point made sense to me at the time.


On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 5:23 PM, Tim Nolan  wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> > But Bahais generally don't just stop here, and instead
> >would insist that Bahaullah etc. were messengers and prophets and so
> >Muslims must be wrong/confused/wanting to tie the hands of God, etc.
>
>
> As I see it, the Qur'an contains the authentic revelation of God to
> Muhammad.
> The text of the Qur'an is true.  As a Baha'i I have to believe that.
>
> Therefore, when the Qur'an says Muhammad is the Seal (last)
> of the messengers and prophets, I accept that as true.
>
> But apparently Baha'u'llah was of a different category, neither rasul nor
> nabi.
> So what's the problem?  There is no need for this debate.
> The Qur'an is true, and Baha'u'llah really is the Manifestation of God
> for this age.  Both are true.
>  Tim
>
>
> All good art is about something deeper than it admits.
> --Roger Ebert
>
>
>
> - Original Message 
> From: Gilberto Simpson 
> To: Baha'i Studies 
> Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 2:23:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Joseph Emmanuel
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Again, if you go back to Khazeh's and Seena Fazel's interesting paper,
> he qutoes Juan Cole in a work of *his* on the Concept of the
> Manifestation in the Bahai Faith:
>
> Therefore in one sense, the Qur'ánic title of khátam al-nabiyyín (seal
> of the prophets) implies that the prophet and the messenger were a
> function of theophany which came to an end with Muhammad. "With the
> Báb and Bahá'u'lláh, in the Bahá'í view, humankind has entered a new
> religious cycle characterized by a fuller theophany. In this cycle,
> concepts like `prophet' and `messenger' have been transcended" (Cole,
> Concept 18). In support, it is significant that the authors cannot
> find one instance in Bahá'u'lláh's writings in which he refers to
> himself as a nabí (prophet) or rasúll (messenger).[37]
>
> [end quote]
>
> And I think that if Bahais just stopped here, there would be much less
> disagreement. But Bahais generally don't just stop here, and instead
> would insist that Bahaullah etc. were messengers and prophets and so
> Muslims must be wrong/confused/wanting to tie the hands of God, etc.
>
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