Re: Bahais never learn
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear friends, Is it necessary to answer the posts by this challenger?It is not sense to continue such claims. Rohani --- On Mon, 1/3/11, Badí' Villar Cárdenas badi...@gmail.com wrote: From: Badí' Villar Cárdenas badi...@gmail.com Subject: Re: Bahais never learn To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Monday, January 3, 2011, 6:12 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv ¡Tremendo rebuzno! Mejor no diga nada. 2010/12/31, atheist challenge atheistchallen...@gmail.com: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Bahais are probably the weakest, back-bone-less, and naive people on earth. If you Bahais were children, you would be kidnapped and molested by a predator off the street. You don't know how to stand up for yourself against these deniers?? No wonder iranians and arabs take advantage of you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:badi...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549442-161002.592694c28c12a081fa91d66872c19...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- Dos piedras preciosas, la una falsa y la otra buena, son difíciles de distinguir: la firmeza y la obstinación. Johann Georg Kohl __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shahramroh...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549673-846514.447a5cda3a7bbf4e64aeaf66f63d1...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549862-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: LSAs/NSA and the responsibilities of government
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Sen, In your 2 below posts,it seems that word friend is used in 2 different /opposite meanings! 1)In the first post, A Muslimis called a friend. 2)In the 2nd post according to the Writings of Abdul-Baha' ,only the friends should elect the members of the Local/Nat Spiritual Assemblies. Thanks/Rohani *** From: Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl View contact details To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 19 Dec 2010 at 18:04, Firouz wrote: What do you call a Muslim who recognizes Baha'u'llah as Manifestation of God? Friend. --- On Sun, 12/19/10, Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl wrote: From: Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl Subject: LSAs/NSA and the responsibilities of government To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 6:13 AM The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 19 Dec 2010 at 1:03, Gilberto Simpson wrote: A question which comes to mind is if the LSAs/NSA of a particular region took on all the responsibilities of government would non-Bahais be able to vote? Both possibilities are ruled out by the Bahai Writings. (1) Only adult declared believers (Bahais), with voting rights, have a vote, and only they can be elected. Shoghi Effendi summarises: == It is expressly recorded in 'Abdu'l-Bahá's Writings that these National Assemblies must be indirectly elected by the friends; that is, the friends in every country must elect a certain number of delegates, who in their turn will elect from among all the friends in that country the members of the National Spiritual Assembly. The friends then in every locality where the number of adult declared believers exceeds nine must directly elect its quota of secondary electors ... These secondary electors will then, ... elect from among all the friends in that country nine who will be the members of the National Spiritual Assembly. (Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, p. 39) === (2) The Assemblies and other institutions can never supplant the governments - even if asked very nicely. This is explicit in numerous texts: Theirs is not the purpose, while endeavoring to conduct and perfect the administrative affairs of their Faith, to violate, under any circumstances, the provisions of their country's constitution, much less to allow the machinery of their administration to supersede the government of their respective countries. (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 65) Should they place in the arena the crown of the government of the whole world, and invite each one of us to accept it, undoubtedly we shall not condescend, and shall refuse to accept it. (Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of the Divine Plan, p. 50) The signature of that meeting should be the Spiritual Gathering (House of Spirituality) and the wisdom therein is that hereafter the government should not infer from the term House of Justice that a court is signified, that it is connected with political affairs, or that at any time it will interfere with governmental affairs. Hereafter, enemies will be many. They would use this subject as a cause for disturbing the mind of the government and confusing the thoughts of the public. The intention was to make known that by the term Spiritual Gathering (House of Spirituality), that Gathering has not the least connection with material matters, and that its whole aim and consultation is confined to matters connected with spiritual affairs. (Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 5) The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath ever regarded, and will continue to regard, the hearts of men as His own, His exclusive possession. All else, whether pertaining to land or sea, whether riches or glory, He hath bequeathed unto the Kings and rulers of the earth. From the beginning that hath no beginning the ensign proclaiming the words He doeth whatsoever He willeth hath been unfurled in all its splendor before His Manifestation. What mankind needeth in this day is obedience unto them that are in authority, and a faithful adherence to the cord of wisdom. The instruments which are essential to the immediate protection, the security and assurance of the human race have been entrusted to the hands, and lie in the grasp, of the governors of human society. This is the wish of God and His decree (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings CII, p. 206) and cited by Shoghi Effendi : I can do no better than quote some of Baha´u'llah´s Own testimonies, leaving the reader to shape his own judgment as to the falsity of such a deduction. In His Epistle to the Son of the Wolf He indicates the true source of kingship: Regard for the rank of sovereigns is divinely ordained, as is clearly attested by the
Re: LSAs/NSA and the responsibilities of government
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Sen, there are many people, that I know them;they recognize Baha'ulla'h as a Manifestation of God -not a Prophet nor Messenger-but do not register,and do not regard the Bahai Institutions.So they are not allowed even to participate in the NDFs.they are very sincere friends with people of different religions ,and even good willing atheists.but they are not permitted to enter the Bahai elections. thanks/Rohani --- On Sun, 12/19/10, Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl wrote: From: Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl Subject: Re: LSAs/NSA and the responsibilities of government To: shahram rohani shahramroh...@yahoo.com, Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 3:32 PM On 19 Dec 2010 at 11:54, shahram rohani wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Sen, In your 2 below posts,it seems that word friend is used in 2 different /opposite meanings! 1)In the first post, A Muslimis called a friend. 2)In the 2nd post according to the Writings of Abdul-Baha' ,only the friends should elect the members of the Local/Nat Spiritual Assemblies. Thanks/Rohani *** There is no difference in the two postings. A Muslim who recognizes Baha'u'llah as Manifestation of God is a Bahai. Just like a Jew or an atheist, a Persian or an Arab who recognizes Baha'u'llah: they all become 'friends (bahais) and friends of one another, since the old differences are submerged in a wider loyalty. Those who can vote in Bahai elections are the friends (Bahais), and specifically the adult declared believers. == It is expressly recorded in 'Abdu'l-Bahá's Writings that these National Assemblies must be indirectly elected by the friends; that is, the friends in every country must elect a certain number of delegates, who in their turn will elect from among all the friends in that country the members of the National Spiritual Assembly. The friends then in every locality where the number of adult declared believers exceeds nine must directly elect its quota of secondary electors ... These secondary electors will then, ... elect from among all the friends in that country nine who will be the members of the National Spiritual Assembly. (Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, p. 39) === -- -- Sen McGlinn http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com The influence of individual souls is and always will be beloved. For the influence of each soul is its fruit, and a soul without influence is considered a tree without fruit in the most great realm. Speak forth for the sake of God, and spread the cause for his sake. Do not look at whether others accept or deny, but rather at the service you are commanded to perform by God. Baha'u'llah -- Tablet of the Son -- http://www- personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/2001/bhson.htm __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-547836-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Matt, The meaning of Radical or Extremist is clear.such a person or view can be in both wings. Tks/Rohani --- On Thu, 11/18/10, Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com wrote: From: Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com Subject: Re: Grave Influence To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Thursday, November 18, 2010, 5:45 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv I don't know how you are defining the term radical. Quite a few of these people on the list come from the Left, so is that how you are defining it? Would you also refer to certain people associated with the Right as radicals? On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://www.worldviewweekend.com/secure/store/product.php?ProductID=1164 Saul Alinsky, Karl Marx, John Dewey, John Maynard Keynes, Aldous Huxley, Charles Darwin, Friedrich Nietzsche, Margaret Sanger, William James, Alice Bailey, Helen Schucman, Sigmund Freud, Alfred Kinsey, Benjamin Bloom, B.F. Skinner, The Frankfurt School, Soren Kierkegaard, Julius Wellhausen, Christopher Columbus Langdell, Betty Friedan and Roger Baldwin 21 Radicals http://www.worldviewtube.com/video.php/videoid-4369/Brannon-Howse/Brannon-Howse Karl Marx http://www.worldviewtube.com/video.php/videoid-4368/Brannon-Howse/Brannon-Howse Saul Alinsky http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-tube/video.php?videoid=4367 Alice Bailey I was surfing the web and stumbled on this. I already knew about John Maynard Keynes and Karl Marx. What are your views of how radicals have changed society? Also, I have a positive view of one, Soren Kierkegaard. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:matthewhaa...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-540818-953325.e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shahramroh...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-540853-846514.447a5cda3a7bbf4e64aeaf66f63d1...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-541094-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Sen, many thanks for your reply.What we,persian language people, understand from the text of Ishraqat-- and I think that Ishraq Khavari has also confirmed it -- is that both Prophethood Messengership are sealed by prophet Muhammad.And Bab and Bahaullah are manifestations of God;that is quite different from those previous stations. Thanks/Rohani --- On Sat, 7/10/10, Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl wrote: From: Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl Subject: Seal of the Prophets To: shahram rohani shahramroh...@yahoo.com, Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Saturday, July 10, 2010, 7:40 PM On 1 Jul 2010 at 12:58, shahram rohani wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Sen, If you refer to the persian text of Ishraqat ,-Relevations of Baha'ullah , where he talks about the Prophet of Islam, describes him as the seal of both prophets messengers.It is P.293 of the book.However,I think there should be many more references. Yours, Rohani Thank you, but that was not really the question. Hajmog said: === The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and Messengership. Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would not have ended, and the Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started. Furthermore, Baha'is accept the Shi'i interpretation of Islam and acknowledge the authority of Imams. So, even if it is a later interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong interpretation. Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is supposed to be distinguished from previous prophets. Hajmog's idea seems to be that Muhammad is the last of the prophets and messengers, that that chapter in history is sealed so there will be no more prophets and messengers. But that does not seem to be what Baha'u'llah says in the Iqan: he says Muhammad is the seal of the prophets (and in the ishraqat, of the Messengers) but not that Muhammad is the last in time, rather he says that all of the prophets are the first and the last and the seal, because these terms do not refer to a sequence in time at all, and that God will always send prophets and messengers That's why I asked Hajmog for his source sen -- -- Sen McGlinn http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com The influence of individual souls is and always will be beloved. For the influence of each soul is its fruit, and a soul without influence is considered a tree without fruit in the most great realm. Speak forth for the sake of God, and spread the cause for his sake. Do not look at whether others accept or deny, but rather at the service you are commanded to perform by God. Baha'u'llah -- Tablet of the Son -- http://www- personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/2001/bhson.htm __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-513625-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Seal of the Prophets/ some more clarifications
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear mr.Khazeh Fananapazir, Thanks for yr e-mail.It shows that it is necessary that you hv another review of yr texts! I personally believe that investigation is always interesting. 1- I am very glad that you are not furious ,like Susan, to push me to the Qom[Iran] schools. 2-I am glad that you hv studied the whole books of Bab,and you agree that he had told ,without fear or wisdom,to Mulla Hussain , about Qaim what I had mentioned. 3-The 2 references in yr writing,from Quran,i.e. 4:94 3:50, both talk about Jesus Christ, and not the Prophet of Islam.Moreover,if you just read the verse to the end,you wl see that he says,...he wl confirm the orders of Torah;and wl allow some of those forbidden for the Jews;and would bring some more divine verses. 4-Re the 2 references of the Islamic traditions (ahadith);I do not know if you know Persian and Arabic languages or no.If you refer to the highlighted sources,you should hv understood that they say that Qaim wl appear in the face of less than 40,in spite of his old age. I think honesty is the best policy.We should accept Bab as a separate identity from Qaim. Thanks,Rohani --- On Sat, 7/3/10, Khazeh aqu...@dsl.pipex.com wrote: From: Khazeh aqu...@dsl.pipex.com Subject: RE: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Cc: shahramroh...@yahoo.com Date: Saturday, July 3, 2010, 2:08 PM Message The Baha'i Studies Listserv fatabayyanoo wala taqooloo liman alqa ilaykumu alssalama lasta mu/minan investigate; and do not say to one who gives you a greeting of peace You are not a believer, sura 4:94 it is vital that we investigate ** fatabayyanoo**, especially and particularly in the matter of the claims and proofs of the Mission and Station of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Please I want to meet you some way. Yes it is true that in the early days of His Ministry, in the very early days the exalted Bab spoke in a language and tone and manner that “appeared to agree” with the beliefs of His people. Please Remember that the same applied to Jesus Christ. He said. *I have not come to ABROGATE but to fulfil* Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but to make their teachings come true. Mathew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. And similarly the Prophet of Islam revealed that His Faith was **musaddiqan** I have come as a verifier and confirmer of the Torah ** Wamusaddiqan lima bayna yadayya mina alttawrati** 3:50 So if you permit me you will follow that in His initial explanations and revelations H.az.rat e Bab [Nuqt.ih ye Uulaa] the Primal Point spoke in a language that was explanatory of the condition of the belief at that time. I wish all of us could stretch our minds to see this explanation given in the later Book of Dalaa’il e Sab’ah In the time of the First Manifestation the Primal Will appeared in Adam; in the day of Noah It became known in Noah; in the day of Abraham in Him; and so in the day of Moses; the day of Jesus; the day of Muhammad, the Apostle of God; the day of the 'Point of the Bayan'; the day of Him Whom God shall make manifest. Hence the inner meaning of the words uttered by the Apostle of God, 'I am all the Prophets', inasmuch as what shineth resplendent in each one of Them hath been and will ever remain the one and the same sun (the Bab's Writings the Selections) And this very important Passage (worth perusing a hundred times) ** CONSIDER the manifold favours vouchsafed by the Promised One, and the effusions of His bounty which have pervaded the concourse of the followers of Islam to enable them to attain unto salvation. Indeed observe how He Who representeth the origin of creation, He Who is the Exponent of the verse, 'I, in very truth, am God', identified Himself as the Gate [Bab] for the advent of the promised Qá'im, a descendant of Muhammad, and in His first Book enjoined the observance of the laws of the Qur'án, so that the people might not be seized with perturbation by reason of a new Book and a new Revelation and might regard His Faith as similar to their own, perchance they would not turn away from the Truth and ignore the thing for which they had been called into being. (The Bab) the Dalaa’il. The Writings of the Shii’h Imams Themselves testify that the Qaa’im [The Promised Awaited One] the Muntazar was less than forty years of age and not more than a thousand years of age. http://www.ghadeer.org/akhlagh/sorosh_h/sorosh08.htm http://nooronalanoor.ir/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=10979Itemid=14 These sites quote the most famous compilation of Bih.aar that the Lord of Amr [S.aah.ib al-Amr will not be one who has passed forty years] laysa S.aah.ib haadha AlAMR man
Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some more clarifications
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Susan, Although I see that some persons here are full of prejudice,and do not like to hv scientific discussions - and for this reason I do not like to continue this debate more -;yet I lik to give some points that may be useful for people: -In the field of gnostic knowledge(Irfan ),there is a popular word that says,knowledge is the greatest veil -Hijab /Obstacle - to attain the truth.It seems that ,in modern time, just a certificate, could be the greatest veil! -If you as a PHD in M.E.studies present 5 authentic islamic traditions indicating Seyed Ali Muhammad Shirazi(Bab) as the Shiite 12th Imam,then I will provide more than 50 correct traditions[ahadith],that Muhammad b.Hasan al-Askari was the 12th Imam,from both Shia and Sunni sources. thanks/Rohani --- On Fri, 7/2/10, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Friday, July 2, 2010, 4:29 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv Are you claiming that Bab,and others who have affirmed his living,and relations with him,were simply liars? As has already been shown, the Bab considered Himself to be the 12th Imam. I see that you have no reason in yr words.I do not like to continue this topic with you,since you are not aware about the historical subjects. I have a PhD in Middle East history and all the evidence I've seen indicates that there never was a 12th Imam, part from Siyyid Ali Muhammad Shirazi. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shahramroh...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-512604-8465...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-512636-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Sen, When Bab himself,as a manifestation, has affirmed the living and existence of Hujjat b.Hasan, the 12th Imam,very clearly, to his near friends;can we still care other words? On the other hand,when we study the islamic references/collections,it is very obvious that there have been 12 Imama,with clear blood line .There are hundreds words/traditions in the compilations of both sects. Abdul' Baha ,as you may know,usually had different views on a single subject,according to the conditions.I remember that he had an affirmative indication about the existence of the Absent 12th Imam of shia community,and the position of Bab in one of his books. Altogether,I have come to the knowledge and point that Master's views and interpretations about the words of Baha'ullah are authoritative only.I appreciate your sincere and valuable co-op. Kind Regards, Rohani --- On Fri, 7/2/10, A R M MC GLINN sen.so...@casema.nl wrote: From: A R M MC GLINN sen.so...@casema.nl Subject: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Friday, July 2, 2010, 4:10 PM The Baha'i Studies ListservI have no comment to make, but there is a letter from Abdu'l-Baha to Jenaabi-Faadel-e Shiraazi, which says in part: You had asked about the twelfth Imam. Know thou that this perception did not originally exist in the physical world. The twelfth Imam existed in the Unseen realm, but had no reality on the material plane. However, some of the Shiah elders of the time deemed it advisable, solely for the protection of the weak elements among the people, to portray a person existing in the Unseen realm as being possessed of a corporeal existence. For the world of existence is a single world; it cannot be hidden, except from your eyes, and cannot be manifest, except to your eyes. Such was their thought, their perception, and their design. Ibn-e Hajar hats a verse in the Sawa'iq saying: A cellar cannot engender a creature such asfancy prompteth you to cal a man, O fools! May then your feeble minds be excused, for you have added a third to the phoenix and the ghouls. In any case, were one to refer to the accounts and carefully reflect upon their meaning, it would become clear and evidence that this magnanimous Imam, peace be upon him, has never existed in the physical realm. (translated in A Radiant Gem by Houri Falahi-Skuce) === Op 02/07/10, shahram rohani shahramroh...@yahoo.com schreef: The Baha'i Studies Listserv We can accept Bab as manifestation and forerunner of Baha'ullah.But since he himself has mentioned the full name and chain of names of father ,grandfather,... of Mahdi--the 12th shiite Imam-- in several of hissc-riptures; so it is nonsense to ignore the existance of such a person.Furthermore,the common sense can not accept the Bab (with his special biography) to be the same as Mahdi,Qa'im,Muhammad b.Hasan al-Askari (with special biography). I would appreciate to have the comments of Sen on this too. thanks/Rohani __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shahramroh...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-512598-8465...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-512637-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
The Baha'i Studies Listserv We can accept Bab as manifestation and forerunner of Baha'ullah.But since he himself has mentioned the full name and chain of names of father ,grandfather,... of Mahdi--the 12th shiite Imam-- in several of his scriptures; so it is nonsense to ignore the existance of such a person.Furthermore,the common sense can not accept the Bab (with his special biography) to be the same as Mahdi,Qa'im,Muhammad b.Hasan al-Askari (with special biography). I would appreciate to have the comments of Sen on this too. thanks/Rohani --- On Thu, 7/1/10, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Thursday, July 1, 2010, 4:47 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv I have seen in the works of Bab,that he seriously and deeply believed in the existance of 12th Imam.Otherwise it would have been nonsense to call himself as Bab in the first stage. Dear Shahram, The Bab only gradually revealed His own station. He explains this thusly: New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-512585-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
The Baha'i Studies Listserv --- On Fri, 7/2/10, iskandar@gmail.com iskandar@gmail.com wrote: From: iskandar@gmail.com iskandar@gmail.com Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Friday, July 2, 2010, 3:24 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Hai, If I had known that,then it was unnecessary to talk about it.Now you say that person was died before 260AH.In last posts you said other things.Itseems you want to show something as true by any means!I do not like it. Are you claiming that Bab,and others who have affirmed his living,and relations with him,were simply liars?I see that you have no reason in yr words.I do not like to continue this topic with you,since you are not aware about the historical subjects. The speeches and texts of Bab are clear and indicative.Everyone may to the original texts.Even it is not necessary to refer to shortened history books. thanks/Rohani Dear Shahram: That person the son of Hasan al-askari died before 260AH, if such a son was ever born. That's what all recent acadaemic research shows. And you know that. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®From: shahram rohani shahramroh...@yahoo.com Sender: bounce-512585-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 12:15:14 -0700To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.eduReplyTo: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications The Baha'i Studies Listserv __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu We can accept Bab as manifestation and forerunner of Baha'ullah.But since he himself has mentioned the full name and chain of names of father ,grandfather,... of Mahdi--the 12th shiite Imam-- in several of his scriptures; so it is nonsense to ignore the existance of such a person.Furthermore,the common sense can not accept the Bab (with his special biography) to be the same as Mahdi,Qa'im,Muhammad b.Hasan al-Askari (with special biography). I would appreciate to have the comments of Sen on this too. thanks/Rohani --- On Thu, 7/1/10, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Thursday, July 1, 2010, 4:47 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv I have seen in the works of Bab,that he seriously and deeply believed in the existance of 12th Imam.Otherwise it would have been nonsense to call himself as Bab in the first stage. Dear Shahram, The Bab only gradually revealed His own station. He explains this thusly: New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-512585-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe
Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear mr.Hai, I have seen in the works of Bab,that he seriously and deeply believed in the existance of 12th Imam.Otherwise it would have been nonsense to call himself as Bab in the first stage. If you refer to 7 proofs[DALAEL E SAB'EH ] on p.47-8,you will see that Bab,by quoting the tradition of Fatima Tablet has affirmed the existence of Mahdi. It is clear that this view is confirmed by Baha'ullah too. 2- Samerra,Jamkaran,...are irrelevent.If we ask from any persian shia,you will find out that Samerra has been only the birth place.Jamkaran is also a place near Qom city.there is only a mosque -as they say- build by the order of Imam Mahdi.No one is hidden there! 3-Re Jabolqa/Jabol(r)sa cities,as you said before;they are related to the thoughts of Shaikhiyya.You mentioned in another post that Bahais do not accept theexistence of these 2 cities.But I remember,that I have seen in a text that Master believed in existing of these 2 cities.I will try to find it. Yours, Rohani --- On Tue, 6/29/10, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: From: Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 8:32 AM The Baha'i Studies Listserv No, you are mistaken about The Bab's views on the so called 12th Imam. Read His Seven Proofs, for example. Samarra or Jamkaran, Jabolqa or Jaborsa, etc., is irrelevant. Hasan al-askari was not survived by any living son. Best regards, Iskandar Sent from my iPod On Jun 29, 2010, at 4:26 AM, shahram rohani shahramroh...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv All dear friends, Although it is a nice discussion,but it is moving from a subject to another subject.What I can add is that Shaikhiya is also a Shiite sect.The 12th Imam,Mahdi, was also born physically.Since Hazrat A'la[Bab] in his words has acknowledged it,and had represented himself as his agent[Bab].Sometimes,there was a false view that Bab had told so as hekmat.But it is not right.Since hee had witnessed the living existing of Mahdi several times;first of them was in front of Jenab Mulla Hussein. Furthermore, I have read 5-6 books,but have not seen any literature claiming that the Shiite believe that Mahdi is in Samara well. Thanks, Rohani --- On Mon, 6/28/10, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 12:00 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv Then, there are no definitive interpretations? The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Iskandar, Would you say Bahais accept the Shaykhi view rather than the Shiah view? Sent by iPhone On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:35 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Hajir: The Baha'i acceptance, if you will, of Shi`ah is quite nuanced and sophisticated. As you very well know, Baha'i Writings do not accept all of Shi`ism in toto, wholesale. For example, Baha'is do not believe that the promised One, the promised Mahdi, is the physical son of Hasan al-`askari alive physically in a well in Samarra, etc. Baha'is, as Sunnis, believe that the Promised Mahdi would be born, just as The Bab was born. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® From: haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com Sender: bounce-511458-2080...@list.jccc.edu Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:36:13 -0700 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu ReplyTo: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets The Baha'i Studies Listserv Stephen, The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and Messengership. Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would not have ended, and the Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started. Furthermore, Baha'is accept the Shi'i interpretation of Islam and acknowledge the authority of Imams. So, even if it is a later interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong interpretation. Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is supposed to be distinguished from previous prophets. Just because Einstein was smartest, just because Michael Jordan is most athletic, just because Mother Teresa is kindest, etc. etc. doesn't mean mankind is not one. The oneness of mankind doesn't have anything to do with any of that stuff. A blind man is equal to a seeing man. A deaf man is equal to a hearing man. A child and an adult are one. The same principle holds for God's Appearances/Manifestations/Prophets/Messengers/etc. School Analogy: Just because a 12th grade teacher tells students in the 12th grade *many more things* than a 1st grade teacher tells the 1st graders, does not mean that they are all teachers. AND, EVEN If another teacher was the one who wrote the text books for both 1st and 12th grade, and was the one who trained both
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Sen, If you refer to the persian text of Ishraqat ,-Relevations of Baha'ullah , where he talks about the Prophet of Islam, describes him as the seal of both prophets messengers.It is P.293 of the book.However,I think there should be many more references. Yours, Rohani --- On Wed, 6/30/10, Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl wrote: From: Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl Subject: Seal of the Prophets To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 5:57 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 28 Jun 2010 at 7:36, wrote: The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and Messengership. Could you give a source for this Hajmog?? Sen __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shahramroh...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-512143-8465...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-512409-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets/ some clarifications
The Baha'i Studies Listserv All dear friends, Although it is a nice discussion,but it is moving from a subject to another subject.What I can add is that Shaikhiya is also a Shiite sect.The 12th Imam,Mahdi, was also born physically.Since Hazrat A'la[Bab] in his words has acknowledged it,and had represented himself as his agent[Bab].Sometimes,there was a false view that Bab had told so as hekmat.But it is not right.Since hee had witnessed the living existing of Mahdi several times;first of them was in front of Jenab Mulla Hussein. Furthermore, I have read 5-6 books,but have not seen any literature claiming that the Shiite believe that Mahdi is in Samara well. Thanks, Rohani --- On Mon, 6/28/10, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 12:00 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv Then, there are no definitive interpretations? The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Iskandar, Would you say Bahais accept the Shaykhi view rather than the Shiah view? Sent by iPhone On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:35 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Hajir: The Baha'i acceptance, if you will, of Shi`ah is quite nuanced and sophisticated. As you very well know, Baha'i Writings do not accept all of Shi`ism in toto, wholesale. For example, Baha'is do not believe that the promised One, the promised Mahdi, is the physical son of Hasan al-`askari alive physically in a well in Samarra, etc. Baha'is, as Sunnis, believe that the Promised Mahdi would be born, just as The Bab was born. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® From: haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com Sender: bounce-511458-2080...@list.jccc.edu Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:36:13 -0700 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu ReplyTo: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets The Baha'i Studies Listserv Stephen, The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and Messengership. Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would not have ended, and the Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started. Furthermore, Baha'is accept the Shi'i interpretation of Islam and acknowledge the authority of Imams. So, even if it is a later interpretation it does not mean that it is a wrong interpretation. Just because Muhammad is last and greatest doesn't mean he is supposed to be distinguished from previous prophets. Just because Einstein was smartest, just because Michael Jordan is most athletic, just because Mother Teresa is kindest, etc. etc. doesn't mean mankind is not one. The oneness of mankind doesn't have anything to do with any of that stuff. A blind man is equal to a seeing man. A deaf man is equal to a hearing man. A child and an adult are one. The same principle holds for God's Appearances/Manifestations/Prophets/Messengers/etc. School Analogy: Just because a 12th grade teacher tells students in the 12th grade *many more things* than a 1st grade teacher tells the 1st graders, does not mean that they are all teachers. AND, EVEN If another teacher was the one who wrote the text books for both 1st and 12th grade, and was the one who trained both the 1st and 12th grade teachers, this does not mean that this teacher of teachers is somehow different from other teachers and somehow not a human being. They are still all human beings. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511458-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe:
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I agree with this view. Thanks/Rohani --- On Mon, 6/28/10, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 1:13 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv Shaykhi was true in it's own day, but became false when the Bab appeared. Christianity was true in it's day, but became false when Muhammad appeared. Judaism was true in it's day, but became false when Jesus Christ appeared. Nonsense. The religion itself doesn't suddenly become untrue. At most it followers might. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shahramroh...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511519-8465...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511696-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Seal of the Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Hajir, We are talking about the eternal spiritual truth,and not the physical/material things.Hum? Yours/Rohani --- On Mon, 6/28/10, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote: From: hajmog haj...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Seal of the Prophets To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 1:28 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv . Alternatively we could see it has the Dpivine Nature of the Manifestation communicating with His human nature. I really think the religion does that. I think this is so because God changes things over time because we are changing. I cannot put on my 6th grade clothes now because they don't fit me anymore. Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shahramroh...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511527-8465...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511697-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Time dependence of Revelation
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Stephen others, As far as I know, there are frequent traditions in the Sunni collections of AHADITH ,similar to what you have quoted;but they are not correct.Even some of them are funny and against the common reason.A short study of the history of the Islamic communities show that the Sunni traditions were basically made [fabricated] in order to justify the acts of the Caliphs. The Bahai scriptures basically support the Shiite view as the right interpretation of Islam. Yours/Rohani --- On Thu, 6/24/10, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Time dependence of Revelation To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Thursday, June 24, 2010, 10:52 AM The Baha'i Studies Listserv I will give examples of Hadith that say the Quran was corrupted: Sahih Muslim Book 017, Number 4194: 'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession. Summary: There used to be a Verse of Stoning in the Quran, but its lost. The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear friends, During the time of Muhammad(p.b.u.h),there were always writers[KATEBAN E WAHY] with him,who would write whatever were revelated to him.They were from his companions;and were present with him in city or abroad.One of them was Imam Ali. He was also divinely granted the memory to not forget any word of Quran. So,the authenticity of it is very different from the Testaments. Yours/Rohani --- On Thu, 6/24/10, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote: From: hajmog haj...@yahoo.com Subject: Time dependence of Revelation To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Thursday, June 24, 2010, 6:30 AM __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511152-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Time dependence of Revelation
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Dr.Hai, Yes,I am more or less aware about the topic and the investigations.some discussions look boring too.Yes,we can say,and it is correct to say that Quran is the Book of God. Thanks/Rohani --- On Thu, 6/24/10, iskandar@gmail.com iskandar@gmail.com wrote: From: iskandar@gmail.com iskandar@gmail.com Subject: Re: Time dependence of Revelation To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Thursday, June 24, 2010, 10:55 AM The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Shahram: There has been a lot of recent research by acadaemic historians, Islamic studies scholars, Arabists, etc. into this issue. From an acadaemic point of view, it is not as cut and dried as you seem to suggest. From a belief and faith point of view, the Quran is a Book of God. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®From: shahram rohani shahramroh...@yahoo.com Sender: bounce-510958-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 06:38:43 -0700To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.eduReplyTo: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Time dependence of Revelation The Baha'i Studies Listserv __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu dear friends, During the time of Muhammad(p.b.u.h),there were always writers[KATEBAN E WAHY] with him,who would write whatever were revelated to him.They were from his companions;and were present with him in city or abroad.One of them was Imam Ali. He was also divinely granted the memory to not forget any word of Quran. So,the authenticity of it is very different from the Testaments. Yours/Rohani --- On Thu, 6/24/10, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote: From: hajmog haj...@yahoo.com Subject: Time dependence of Revelation To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Thursday, June 24, 2010, 6:30 AM The Baha'i Studies Listserv Yes, I respect most religions, even some of the nature-based quasi Pagan ones Are you seriously honest? You respect Christianity but think their book has errors in it? Is that really respectful? What that means is that you believe in another Christianity that doesn't even exist (nobody follows the Christianity that you have in mind), one that had a book revealed to Jesus similar to how a book was revealed to Muhammad? Now you should think about what Bahais mean by respecting Christianity. And you should think about what Bahais means by revelation and it's time-dependent qualities. Even how revelation place is dependent on the capacity of mankind. For example, Moses and Jesus didn't directly dictate their teachings to scribes but they were written down times afterward, and Muhammad didn't actually write anything down himself, but people wrote them down after memorizing them. But in this day, Bab and Bahaullah actually wrote their revelations themselves or directly dictated them to secretaries and then stamped them after review. The nature of revelation itself is time-dependent, let alone the contents of revelation __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shahramroh...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510935-8465...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510958-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail
Re: Time dependence of Revelation
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear friends, During the time of Muhammad(p.b.u.h),there were always writers[KATEBAN E WAHY] with him,who would write whatever were revelated to him.They were from his companions;and were present with him in city or abroad.One of them was Imam Ali. He was also divinely granted the memory to not forget any word of Quran. So,the authenticity of it is very different from the Testaments. Yours/Rohani --- On Thu, 6/24/10, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote: From: hajmog haj...@yahoo.com Subject: Time dependence of Revelation To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Thursday, June 24, 2010, 6:30 AM The Baha'i Studies Listserv Yes, I respect most religions, even some of the nature-based quasi Pagan ones Are you seriously honest? You respect Christianity but think their book has errors in it? Is that really respectful? What that means is that you believe in another Christianity that doesn't even exist (nobody follows the Christianity that you have in mind), one that had a book revealed to Jesus similar to how a book was revealed to Muhammad? Now you should think about what Bahais mean by respecting Christianity. And you should think about what Bahais means by revelation and it's time-dependent qualities. Even how revelation place is dependent on the capacity of mankind. For example, Moses and Jesus didn't directly dictate their teachings to scribes but they were written down times afterward, and Muhammad didn't actually write anything down himself, but people wrote them down after memorizing them. But in this day, Bab and Bahaullah actually wrote their revelations themselves or directly dictated them to secretaries and then stamped them after review. The nature of revelation itself is time-dependent, let alone the contents of revelation __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shahramroh...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510935-8465...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510958-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Jinn
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear friends, As far as I remember,Satan[Iblis] has been a Jinn.After several thousand years of worship of God,he was given -by honor- the stage of Angles.He was n't a true Angle.After his disobediance ,he was expelled.I will try to find the ref of this article. thanks/Rohani --- On Sat, 5/29/10, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: I should add that the Qur'an refers to Iblis (the devil) as both a jinn and an angel. If we believe jinn and angels are entirely separate then the Qur'an itself is contradictory. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shahramroh...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-507177-8465...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-507224-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Jinn
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Sen, Please be informed that in the Islamic words and culture,Jinn is a creature different from Angles.Jinns can be faithful or unfaithful.But angles are not so; Peace, Shahram Rohani --- On Thu, 5/27/10, Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl wrote: From: Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl Subject: Jinn To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Thursday, May 27, 2010, 3:47 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 27 May 2010 at 10:56, Stephen Gray wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv In, Islam there is a techings about Jinn. Are they ever refernced in Baha'i scriptures? Yes, they are: We see men drunken in this Day, the Day in which men and angels (jinn) have been gathered together. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 45) Amr wa Khalq vol 2 pp 159-165 has a compilation from the Bahai writings on the metaphysical beings (excepting Satan, who gets a chapter to himself!) http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/c/AK2/ak2-160.html#pg159 Ma'ideh Asmani volume 2 also has a collection on jinn and angels, starting: http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/ab/MAS2/mas2-44.html#pg43 and there are references which - to me - seem to be more figures of speech than actual references to jinn, as in this tablet of Abdu'l- Baha: http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/ab/MA7/ma7-82.html#pg78 sen -- -- Sen McGlinn http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com Happy are those who spend their days in gaining knowledge, in discovering the secrets of nature, and in penetrating the subtleties of pure truth! Woe to those who are contented with ignorance, whose hearts are gladdened by thoughtless imitation, ... who have wasted their lives!(~Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions p.137) -- -- __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shahramroh...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-507019-8465...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-507159-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Sen, many thanks for yr clarifications.But pls note as below: I think the 24 Guardians are different from the subject of 24 elders.As one familiar with the subject may understand,the Imams came after the Islam's Prophet(generation after generration).In the words of Master,in comparing the 24 Guardians with the Shia Imams, I think that Guardians shoud have come after Bahaullah,and AbdulBaha .In this way,He called Shoghi in his WT as Guardian( wali amr ).Shoghi was assumed as the first one. The next were to come. But the 24 elders(19 of them Bab,and the Horuf-e- Hayy;and the next 5 to come in the unknown future), can by no means be compared with the Shia Imams,with their exactly defined and explained responsibilities. If one assumes that Shoghi was not one of those 24 Guardians- I do not see this a sane theory-,then we should wait for those 24 Guardians;unless there has been a bada'. Yours, Rohani --- On Wed, 2/10/10, Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl wrote: From: Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl Subject: Re: Lesser Prophets To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 3:55 AM The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 9 Feb 2010 at 23:26, shahram rohani wrote: according to the words of Abdul-Baha,we were supposed to have 24 Guardians, The reference it to a verse in Revelation: And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God. of which Abdu'l-Baha says : In each cycle the guardians and holy souls have been twelve. ... But in this glorious manifestation there are twenty-four, double the number of all the others, for the greatness of this manifestation requires it. (Some Answered Questions, 57) The Guardian was apparently not one of these guardians and holy souls, or if he was, he did not tell his secretary about. The secretary writes: Regarding the four and twenty elders: The Master in a Tablet, stated that they are they Báb, the 18 Letters of the Living and five others who would be known in the future. So far we do not know who these five other are. (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, July 22, 1934: Bahai News, No. 171, November 1944, p. 2) In fact we do know the name of one other: Haji Mirza Muhammad-Taqi, the Vakilu'd-Dawlih and cousin of the Bab, a distinguished believer who was designated by 'Abdu'l-Baha as one of the 'four and twenty elders' in this verse of the Book of Revelation (see Adib Taherzadeh, The Child of the Covenant, 240) and was given the task of arranging for the election of the Universal House of Justice (Taherzadeh, The Covenant of Baha'u'llah, 241) should that become necessary (presumably meaning, if Abdu'l-Baha was dead or unable to lead the community). He directs Muhammad-Taqi to gather the Afnan and the Hands of the Cause and make the necessary arrangements. The fact that we do not know the names of 4 more of the elders does not mean that God has changed his plan (Bada') - it just means He has not told us all the details (yet). God often does that Sen senmcglinn.wordpress.com -- -- The influence of individual souls is and always will be beloved. For the influence of each soul is its fruit, and a soul without influence is considered a tree without fruit in the most great realm. Speak forth for the sake of God, and spread the cause for his sake. Do not look at whether others accept or deny, but rather at the service you are commanded to perform by God. Baha'u'llah -- Tablet of the Son -- http://www- personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/2001/bhson.htm __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shahramroh...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486189-8465...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-487104-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http
Re: everlasting Covenant only in Bahá'í faith
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear friends, Sometimes some words reminds me of Soviet KGB's wording and threatens! I do not like this wording.I propose you Commorades to read Orvell's Animal Farm.It can be very inspiring.I hope this would help you to change yr attitude.I wl not continue this unamicable unrelated dialogue. Tks/Rohani --- On Wed, 2/10/10, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskan...@buffalo.edu wrote: From: Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskan...@buffalo.edu Subject: Re: everlasting Covenant only in Bahá'í faith To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 11:25 AM The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Susan: You are correct. This is the same Shahram Rohani. On another list, he is spreading other false rumors about Mr. Paul Lample. And Shahram made an erroneous statement about the 24 Elders, to which Sen replied. Apparently Shahram is quite misinformed and tries to disseminate dysinformation and misinformation. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:03:15 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Cc: shahramroh...@yahoo.com.didtheyreadit.com Subject: Re: everlasting Covenant only in Bahá'í faith The Baha'i Studies Listserv please note that Bahaullah has taught us that the size and number,or duration can not be a logical reason for correctness of a faith. Taught us? Are you a Baha'i? Why don't you spell His name right and quote Him directly? We should observe that the other groups,like Azalis,have existed the same time. I presume you mean the Bayanis? Technically that is a separate religion. Or if we consider the size n volume of followers of a religion,as a proof,then the total number of members of Bahai groups,or the population of Bahai Intl Community,in comparison with the followers of other faiths, will show an opposite result. Not the issue. The issue is that we were promised that no attempt to divide the Faith would have any long term success. The fact that these movements cannot persist over time is evidence of the truth of that promise. I think every message or claim ,in its essence and contents should be justifying and logical. Again, not the issue. I recall you posted here once before trying to justify the Iranian government persecuting Baha'is. Just what exactly are you up to? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskan...@buffalo.edu Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486325-249...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-487106-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: everlasting Covenant only in Bahá'í faith
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Gary, then how we should justify the divisions taken place in different levels and generations in Bahai faith? Yours/Rohani --- On Mon, 2/8/10, Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com wrote: From: Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com Subject: Re: everlasting Covenant only in Bahá'í faith To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Monday, February 8, 2010, 10:39 AM The Baha'i Studies Listserv the Bahá'í faith will not be divided like Christianism or Islam. My question is why God didn't make this before, for example, why Islam (or other religion)has sects? As with so many other things, it seems that God in his mysterious wisdom determined that humanity was not yet ready for that level of covenant protection, and that it was necessary to prepare us through the ages with many prophecies of Peace, Justice and Reconciliation. Gary __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shahramroh...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-485665-8465...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-485780-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: everlasting Covenant only in Bahá'í faith
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Friends, please note that Bahaullah has taught us that the size and number,or duration can not be a logical reason for correctness of a faith.We should observe that the other groups,like Azalis,have existed the same time.Or if we consider the size n volume of followers of a religion,as a proof,then the total number of members of Bahai groups,or the population of Bahai Intl Community,in comparison with the followers of other faiths, will show an opposite result. I think every message or claim ,in its essence and contents should be justifying and logical. Tks/Rohani --- On Tue, 2/9/10, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Subject: Re: everlasting Covenant only in Bahá'í faith To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Tuesday, February 9, 2010, 11:05 AM The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Gary, then how we should justify the divisions taken place in different levels and generations in Bahai faith? Yours/Rohani There is no justification for anyone trying to divide the Baha'i Faith. That is why we have the Covenant. The 'divisions' you refer to have all been short-lived attempts to seize the leadership of the Baha'i Faith. None of them have survived in any sizable numbers. _ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486186-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Stephen, according to the words of Abdul-Baha,we were supposed to have 24 Guardians,from the masculine descendents of Bahaullah.But as AbdulBaha had no son [and excommunication of Muhammad Ali];and since Shoghi Effendi had no child at all, it is believed that there has been a change [Bada' ] . Yours/Rohani --- On Tue, 2/9/10, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Lesser Prophets To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Tuesday, February 9, 2010, 12:21 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv What is the difference between several of the dispensations? Does the Baha'i Faith have equaivalents to Old Testament prophets? New Testament apostles? Shi'a Islam Imams? etc __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-486187-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: agreement about the future of friends[YARAN] in Iran
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear dr.s.manneck, Hi all the personal identifications of the Iranian friends,i.e.birth,death, marriage,divorce are legal and registered in due governmental offices.all they hv I.D. card,national card,etc. tks/Rohani --- On Fri, 3/6/09, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Subject: Re: agreement about the future of friends[YARAN] in Iran To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 3:17 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Iskandar, Thanks for the clarification. As you know, if the Iranian government wanted those bodies to disband all they needed to do was say so in the first place. How are some half a million Baha'is supposed to get married, conduct prayer meetings, have children's classes, Feasts, etc. with absolutely no organization? I doubt very seriously if the government cares whether Baha'is can get married, etc. As you know even the Shah's government refused to recognize Baha'i marriages which caused no small amount of hardship for many. Indeed, I think some of the charges of adultery against Baha'is has been because their marriages weren't considered legal. Al-Bashir who is now a wanted man, for example. What Shahram says about Professor Saiedi's article is incorrect and untrue. Is that article in Persian or English? I would rather not ignore Shahram. It is not everyday, after all, that we get to directly address an IRI agent and answer their accusations. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shahramroh...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-421470-8465...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-421580-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear dr.s.maneck dear mr.iskandar Hai, I saw the article in goftman blog.I usually follow the texts of ipw of dr.ahang rabbani too.fyi, the article are more than 70% journalistic.they just arouse the emotions n feelings of the youth.but at the same time it shows the complexities of legal issues that requires wisdom n reasoning, referring to the articles of code,etc.I hope you cud realize what I mean. here I add just fr yr info tt in Iran,according to legal procedure, during the time of investigations,the accused persons are not allowed to contact their solicitors.theymay also be kept detained if the judge n questioner prefer it.I know ,fm our NDFs,that YARAN hv hd regular meetings with their families.they hv good spirits. what do you think about the behavior of the U.S. STAFF toward the accused people in prisons Abu Ghorayb[baghdad],Guantanamo,etc? what about the Iranian diplomats arrested in Arbil of Iraq? they are just examples to remind you of realities out of the books and declarations. Apart from the above points,as I told in the previous posts the trial procedure for the Bahai friends has been more or less normal in the past, and we pray fr the future trial. I hope you could realize my point of view that according to the teaching of our faith we should not make ,even the slightest,opposition toward our government,especially here in Iran.I am sure that 100s of blog/sites who are attacking the Iranian government,are making bad mistakes in this regard .I wish that they are not Troy Horses for the enemies n opponents of our country. furthermore,I had requested you to quote or refer to BAHAULLAL's word-as you claimed- abt the limitation of teaching in israel.other discussed points are clear. warmest regards/Rohani --- On Mon, 2/23/09, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskan...@buffalo.edu wrote: From: Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskan...@buffalo.edu Subject: Re: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 3:05 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv It's a fairly longish article about the arrests and detentions without a charge, without any arraignment or trial of any sort. It also examines the current atomsphere of paranoia about espionage in Iran and the government's exploitation of that fear to suppress any and all dissents. The article explores some articles of the Iranian consitution, etc., etc., and it documents the anti-Baha'i campaign that has been going on for quite some time and gaining more momentum and crescendo. Perhaps Shahram himself should like to translate it. Regards, Iskandar On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Susan Maneck wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Iskandar, For the benefit of list members who don't read Persian, would you summarize this website? warmest, Susan On 2/23/09, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskan...@buffalo.edu wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv For Shahram Rouhani http://www.goftman-iran.info/content/view/1192/10/ in Persian. Regards, Iskandar __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shahramroh...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-418823-8465...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-418934-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran
The Baha'i Studies Listserv DEAR DR.S.MANECK, TKS YR REPLY.I WISH U HD LET MY POST APPEARED IN THE SITE,SO THAT I CUD FEEL FREE ATMOSPHERE HERE.NOW THE READER THINKS THAT U R SELECTING OR CENSURING THE TEXTS,N IT IS NOT INTERESTING FR AN ACADEMIC SITE. I PERSONALLY RESPECT YOU,N TRY TO READ YR LITERATURE AND COMMENTS.BUT DO U MEAN THAT YOU CAN DECIDE OR LET WHO IS A BAHAI OR NOT? I DO NOT NEED TO TELL YOU OR ANYONE ELSE TT I AM A BAHAI BY MY PARENTS.THE FLOWER HS ITS SMELL,AND FREE SEARCH IS OUR TEACHING.WE R NOT TEACHERS FR OTHERS.DO U SEE WHAT I MEAN? IF WE CUD NOT TOLERATE THE LEAST CRITICISM,THEN HOW CAN WE EXPECT OTHERS,WHO CONSIDER US AS THEIR ENEMIES,TO LET US TO DENY THEIR BASIC THOUGHTS? FYI,I HV STUDIED LAW,AND INT'L LAW.IF U HD THE SAME BACKGROUND,IT WUD HV BEEN EASY FR U TO UNDERSTAND TT THE RULE MADE BY GENERAL ATTORNEY IN IRAN IS SENSE AND COMPETENT.IT IS NONSENSE TO NEGLECT IT BY APPLICATION THE WORDS OF BANI SADR.EVEN IN THIS VERY CLEAR CASE I IGNORE THE RULE OF A COMPETENT AUTHORITY OF IRAN BY APPLICATION TO A COMMENT OF AN OPPONENT OF THE IRAN GOVERNMENT. IN MY LAST POST I SAID TT THE BAHAI AUTHORITIES TRY TO WALK ON THE WAYS OF THE OPPONENTS OF IRAN GOVERNMENT,NOT THOSE IN WAR WITH IRAN. DEAR DR,MANECK, YOU HV SAID TT YOU ARE NOT AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT,BUT U ARE AGAINST THE GENOCIDE.BUT I HV NOT SEEN EVEN A WORD,A PRAY,... FM YOU ABT THE GAZA PEOPLE,OR THE GENOCIDE IN ROWANDA,SOMALI,ETC. IF WE ACCEPT TT 200 BAHAIS HV BEEN KILLED IN IRAN[AND IT IS TOO MUCH,AND A PITY].WITH REGARDS TO THE 300-350 000 POPULATION OF THE IRAN BAHAI COMMUNITY IT IS HALF A PERCENT.THOSE PEOPLE HV BEEN TRIALED,THEY HV GIVEN THEIR DEFENDS...DURING 30 YEARS.THEY HV HD OPPORTUNITY TO ASK FORGIVENESS FM COURTS,...BUT IN GAZA,IN LEBANON,IN ROWANDA,THOUSANDS,AND THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE WERE KILLED OUT OF THEIR DECISION TO INTERFERE THE WAR.I BELIEVE THAT HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY. CAN YOU TELL ME HOW MANY OF THE IRANIAN BAHAI MARTYRS HV BEEN TEENAGE GIRLS? THEN YOU WL SEE THAT IT IS A BITTER JOKE TO CALL IT A GENOCIDE. RE PROHIBITION OF TEACHING IN THE SACRED LAND CAN YOU QUOTE THE TEXT AND/OR REFERENCE OF BAHAULLAH ?BECAUSE AT THE TIME OF BAHAULLAH THERE WAS NOT THE COUNTRY OF ISRAEL.BUT IN THE LETTER OF UHJ IT IS REFERRED TO THE RESIDENTS, AND NATIONALS OF ISRAEL AND ITS AIR BORDER... WARMEST GREETINGS/ROHANI --- On Sun, 2/22/09, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Subject: Re: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran To: shahramroh...@yahoo.com Cc: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009, 5:52 PM IT SEEMS THAT YR WORDS ARE FULL OF ANGER TOWARD THE IRAN STATE AND THE BAHAIS LIKE ME WHO TRY TO FIND A MIDDLE WAY TO GET OUT OF THE CURRENT CRISIS,ACCORDING TO THE TRUE TEACHINGS OF FAITH. Dear Shahram, Are you trying to tell us you are a Baha'i? Do you believe that Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for this Age? My anger is not towards the Iranian State it is towards anyone who tries to justify genocide. -I KNOW THAT THE LIMITATION OF TEACHING BAHAI TO THE ISRAEALITES AND IN ISRAEL WAS HELD AFTER THE MEETING BETWEEN THE REPRESENTATIVES OF THE GUARDIAN AND THE NEW STATE OF ISRAEL.DO U WANT TO IGNORE IT? I've not seen any evidence of this. If you have some, please feel free to post it here. As I indicated the decision not to teach the Faith in Palestine was made by Baha'u'llah, not Shoghi Effendi and proceeds the establishment of the State of Israel. ACCORDING TO IRAN CONSTITUTION PEOPLE ARE FREE TO HAVE ANY RELIGION. BUT THEY ARE NOT FREE TO DISCUSS ABOUT THEIR RELIGIONS Then how about telling us which Baha'i community you belong to since if what you say is true, you needn't worry that this will put you in any danger. But I would like to see specifically where Iranian law prohibits people from discussing their religion. I know this is what Hojjatol-Islam Dur-Najafabadi is saying but I would like to see the actual law which says people are not free to discuss their religion. As Abolhassan Banisadr, Iran's first president, says, When having any belief is free, how can expressing it be prohibited by law? SPECIALLY IN UNIVERSITIES,SCHOOLS,GOVERNMENTAL/PUBLIC PLACES,AS IT WILL CAUSE DISORDER IN THE DAILY AFFAIRS First off, Baha'is are not even allowed to *attend* universities in Iran, whether they discuss their religion there or not. Not only that, but they are prohibited from holding government jobs, so how does this even come up? .IN MANY MANY CASES WHEN THE CONSTITUTION TALKS ABOUT THE RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS,IT CONTINUES THAT DETAILS WILL APPEAR IN COMING RULES AND LAWS. Again, it would help if you would quote what your constitution says directly here. But are you saying that subsequent laws can abrogate the Constitution itself? In any case, if subsequent laws have been made, please provide them. All I
Re: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear dr.S.Maneck, hi it is actually my habit to write in capital letter.in some way it is easier. I hv read some texts n comments of dr.Foster.they are useful n interesting too. re Mona ,I know that,and I am clearly against it.I am against murder as sentence.I am against any sentence for faith,free speech,,,for bahais or non-bahais.the Iran judiciary system hs defects and shortcomings.but Bahais are not an exception.However,I believe that many of those bahai persecutions cud be avoided if we had followed the teachings of our Master and carried out wisdom.you know tt he participated in muslim prays even till the last days.from whom we are learning? believe that our community cud hv a better situation,if we had more suitable guidelines in critical stages.of course we shud pray. I hope you cud leave yr wrong info n prejudice,and make better evaluations. I think the moderate works n words fm people like you can improve our situation.the future wl be better.I am in iran most of the year.we live here.pls let us to not be the red carpet fr others.we need hope,and not embarassment.I think the Bahai community of shud not pave the way for others.sorry fr too much headache.I hope you wl study the essential parts of my previous post,and let me know yr reasonable comments. Yours/Rohani --- On Mon, 2/23/09, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Subject: Re: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 12:42 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv The creatures that serve their master-puppet, the so-called Ministry of Intelligence (now there's an irony! What a name for an organization that has no intelligence!), are trying to infiltrate all Baha'i lists and take over discussions. Don't waste your time with them and don't let them on these lists. It is the same idiotic things that they have been saying for decades taught by their masters in Qum and Mashhad and Najaf. Dear Ahang, There wasn't much discussion going on here in the first place. I have no illusions as to this man's motives but on the other hand, he likely has never been given access to the truth on these matters so if we have the opportunity to supply him with it, I don't see why we should not do so. At the point where it is clear he is listening to nothing we are saying and ignoring the facts we provide him and it is simply becoming a distraction, we can always call a halt to the discussion. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shahramroh...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-418777-8465...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-418800-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran
The Baha'i Studies Listserv --- DEAR DR.S.MANECK, IT SEEMS THAT YR WORDS ARE FULL OF ANGER TOWARD THE IRAN STATE AND THE BAHAIS LIKE ME WHO TRY TO FIND A MIDDLE WAY TO GET OUT OF THE CURRENT CRISIS,ACCORDING TO THE TRUE TEACHINGS OF FAITH. -I KNOW THAT THE LIMITATION OF TEACHING BAHAI TO THE ISRAEALITES AND IN ISRAEL WAS HELD AFTER THE MEETING BETWEEN THE REPRESENTATIVES OF THE GUARDIAN AND THE NEW STATE OF ISRAEL.DO U WANT TO IGNORE IT? ACCORDING TO IRAN CONSTITUTION PEOPLE ARE FREE TO HAVE ANY RELIGION. BUT THEY ARE NOT FREE TO DISCUSS ABOUT THEIR RELIGIONS,SPECIALLY IN UNIVERSITIES,SCHOOLS,GOVERNMENTAL/PUBLIC PLACES,AS IT WILL CAUSE DISORDER IN THE DAILY AFFAIRS.IN MANY MANY CASES WHEN THE CONSTITUTION TALKS ABOUT THE RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS,IT CONTINUES THAT DETAILS WILL APPEAR IN COMING RULES AND LAWS. -THE NATIONAL MEMORY OF THE IRANIAN PEOPLE-WE ACCEPT IT OR NOT-- REMINDS BABI AND BAHAI MOVEMENTS WITH BLOODSHED,TERROR,ARSON, TREACHEROUS ACTS,ETC.MOST OF THEM CAN NOT TOLERATE BAHAIS,EVEN WHEN THEY COME BACK UNDER THE MASK OF HUMAN RIGHTS,ETC. - IN IRAN,LIKE MANY OTHER COUNTRIES,THERE ARE SEPARATION OF POWERS. IN ADDITION TO PARLIAMENT[LEGISLATIVE POWER],THE CABINET,AND MINISTERIES IN THEIR RELATED FIELDS[ EXECUTIVE POWER],SUPREME COUNCILS, THE HEAD OF JUDICIAL SYSTEM,THE GENERAL ATTORNEY,EVEN EVERY JUDGE CAN MAKE ORDER TO ENFORCE A LAW,OR STOP ENFORCEMENT OF A LAW, ENFORCE A PRACTICE,OR LIMIT ITS APPLICATION,. -THE JUDICIAL POWER OF IRAN ONCE IN 1983 PROHIBITED ANY ORGANISATIONAL AND TEACHING ACTIVITIES OF THE BAHAIS.IT WAS VERY CLEAR.AFTER A WHILE STOP THEY BEGAN THEIR ACTIVITIES IN OTHER NAMES.AS LONG AS THEY WERE CONCERNED ABT THE PERSONAL AND CIVIL ACTIVITIES OF THE BAHAIS,THEY WERE FREE.BUT WHEN THEY TREE TO ENTER SOME ACTS WHICH ARE POLITICAL AND IN LINE WITH THE OPPOSING COUNTRIES OF IRAN,THEY ARE PRESSED BY IRAN GOVERNMENT.ALL THE IRANIAN BAHAIS,INSIDE OR ABROAD,KNOW THE MARGINS.THE BAHAIS WHO ARE NOT ACTIVE AGAINST THE IRAN GOVERNMENT HV PASSPORTS.THEY CAN GO OUT AND COME BACK. WE KNOW THAT MOST OF THE BAHAIS KILLED BY IRAN REV STATE,WERE CORRUPTED[LIKE MANY MUSLIM ONES] .BUT THE UHJ ,IN ACCORDANCE TO A PLAN,ATTACKED THE IRAN GOVERNMENT IN THOSE YEARS. NOW IT SEES THAT THEY WANT NEW FOOD FOR THEIR ADS.BUT I AM SURE THAT IF BAHAULLAH, ABDULBAHA,OR SHOGHI WERE THERE,THEY WUD HV MADE A BETTER ,PEACEFUL DECISION. WE ARE INTERESTED IN PEACE,LOVE,UNITY.WE PRAY FOR THAT.WE HATE BLOODSHED. WARMEST/SHAHRAM ROHANI --- On Sat, 2/21/09, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Subject: Fwd: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran To: shahramroh...@yahoo.com Date: Saturday, February 21, 2009, 7:11 PM -- Forwarded message -- From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Date: Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 5:25 PM Subject: Re: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu The Baha'i Studies Listserv DEAR FRIENDS, HI ATTORNEY GENERAL OF IRAN ACKNOWLEDGED THAT ALL THE ORGANIZATIONAL ACTIVITIES OF THE HAIFAN BAHAI COMMUNITY OF IRAN, If they want Baha'i activities to cease, that's what they should say. There is no *Haifan* Baha'i community in Iran. IN DIFFERENT LEVELS,BOTH ADMINISTRATIVE AND TEACHING ACTIVITIES,ARE HARMFUL AND DESTRUCTIVE TO THE SOCIAL ORDER AND NATIONAL SECURITY OF IRAN; How are Baha'i activities destructive to the social order and national security of Iran? THIS IS MORE OR LESS LIKE A PART OF LIMITATIONS PUT ON THE BAHAIS IN ISRAEL. There are no limitations on the Baha'is in Israel. It is the Baha'i community not the Israeli government which made the decision not to teach there. If the Iranian law decrees that the Baha'i Faith cannot be taught in Iran, Baha'is will not do so, but to my knowledge there is no such laws on the books. Or are you saying that the Attorney General himself is empowered to make such laws? Because as far as I recall the Iranian constitutions guarantees religious freedom. Are you saying that it doesn't? THINK THEY WILL FOLLOW THIS RULE OR NO? Show us the law itself, not a statement from your Attorney General. DO YOU THINK THAT THE IRANIAN BAHAIS SHOULD OBEY THE RULES OF THE IRANIAN STATE,AS TAUGHT BY THE FAITH? Baha'is should obey the *laws* of the government where they reside, not some rule which some government official whose not empowered to legislate just comes up with arbitrarily. But since we are discussing the legalities of the situation, answer me this: Is it legal in Iran to hold someone prisoner for 9 months without being charged? Is it legal to deny them access to an attorney? Is it legal to torture these people? Is Iran not a signatory of both the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Islamic Declaration of Human Rights? Is it not violating both? __ You
illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran
The Baha'i Studies Listserv -- DEAR FRIENDS, HI ATTORNEY GENERAL OF IRAN ACKNOWLEDGED THAT ALL THE ORGANIZATIONAL ACTIVITIES OF THE HAIFAN BAHAI COMMUNITY OF IRAN,IN DIFFERENT LEVELS,BOTH ADMINISTRATIVE AND TEACHING ACTIVITIES,ARE HARMFUL AND DESTRUCTIVE TO THE SOCIAL ORDER AND NATIONAL SECURITY OF IRAN;SO THEY SHOULD BE STOPPED.ANY NEGLIGENCE WILL CAUSE PROPER REACTION. THIS IS MORE OR LESS LIKE A PART OF LIMITATIONS PUT ON THE BAHAIS IN ISRAEL. SINCE THE HAIFAN BAHAIS CLAIM THAT ACCORDING TO THE TEACHINGS OF FAITH THEY OBEY THE GOVERNMENTS,AND SEE THEM AS PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION OF GOD ON EARTH, SO THEY SHOULD BE OBEYED WITHOUT ANY JUSTIFICATION;DO YOU THINK THEY WILL FOLLOW THIS RULE OR NO? IT WAS VERY CLEAR THAT ANTI-GOVERNMENT ACTIVITIES OF THE IRANIAN BAHAIS ,DURING LAST YEARS,IN IRAN AND ABROAD,AND THEIR RELIANCE ON THE SUPPORTS OF NON-FRIEND COUNTRIES TO IRAN WOULD CAUSE THE ANGER OF THE IRAN STATE. DO YOU THINK THAT THE IRANIAN BAHAIS SHOULD OBEY THE RULES OF THE IRANIAN STATE,AS TAUGHT BY THE FAITH?OR THEY WL FOLLOW THE ISRAEL RESIDED,AND ENEMY SUPPORTED UHJ?IT IS A CRITICAL POINT. PEACE / ROHANI __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-418520-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Unity of nations
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Sen, HI the other Persian word for century is sadeh. Yours/Rohani --- On Sun, 2/8/09, Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl wrote: From: Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl Subject: Re: Unity of nations To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 10:52 AM The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 8 Feb 2009 at 8:54, Benjamin La Framboise wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Sorry...I had question I forgot to ask: What is the term/phrase/etc. in Arabic or Persian that means 100-year span of time? Does one exist? Did Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l-Baha use this term/phrase, ever? Sure: they can just say 100 years (Will and Testament p 20) or 700 years (Iqan page 9). The Persian is sad (100) saal (year). (Persian doesn't use a plural noun in this situation). Using another word for 'year', in the Iqan page 9, for over a hundred years is sad sanah. Similarly, there is no specific term for millenium; but 'one thousand years (hezaar saal) is used often. I agree that it is much clearer when we look at the persian terms translated as 'century' (qarn and `asr) and see how Shoghi Effendi translates them in other places. But not everyone can read the script and work out the sentences, to really follow that argument Sen -- -- Sen McGlinn *** Let the friends recall and ever bear in mind the repeated exhortations and glowing promises of our beloved Master with reference to the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar, the crowning institution in every Baha'i community. (Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, page 108) -- -- __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shahramroh...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-415700-8465...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-415748-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Unity of nations
The Baha'i Studies Listserv DEAR MR.FRIEDMAN, YOU R RIGHT TT THE 2 TARGETS WILL HAPPEN AT THE SAME TIME.PLS ALSO NOTE THAT THOSE PRINCIPALS WERE NOT MENTIONED BY BAHAULLAH FR THE FIRST TIME. IN THE IRANIAN RELIGIOUS CULTURE IT WAS VERY COMMON TO BELIEVE IN UNITY OF NATIONS AND WORLD PEACE UNDER THE STATE OFIMAM MAHDI,THE 12TH SHIA IMAM.I THINK THERE R TENS OF BOOKS SPECIFYING THIS EVENTS,WHICH HV BEEN WRITTEN FM THE EARLY YEARS OF ESTABLISHMENT OF ISLAM,AND CONTAINS HUNDREDS OF WORDS AND TRADITIONS OF THE PROPHET N IMAMS OF ISLAM.IT IS BORROWED AND APPEARED IN BAHAI TEACHINGS,LIKE MANY OTHER TEACHINGS. BEST REGARDS/ROHANI --- On Thu, 1/1/09, David Friedman david_friedman1...@hotmail.com wrote: From: David Friedman david_friedman1...@hotmail.com Subject: Unity of nations To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Thursday, January 1, 2009, 9:18 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv I was looking through the letter from the research department on the Lesser Peace and found something interesting. They say that the unity of nations should not be regarded as being synonymous with the Lesser Peace, yet from a House letter from the 80's it appears that they used to be of the understanding that the two were synonymous: However, attainment of the unity of nations should not be regarded as being synonymous with the establishment of the Lesser Peace. In answer to a question about the timing of the Lesser Peace, Shoghi Effendi stated, in a letter written on his behalf in 1946, that: All we know is that the Lesser Peace and the Most Great Peace will come -- their exact dates we do not know. Nevertheless, the unity of nations can quite properly be regarded as one stage -- and indeed a highly significant step -- in the lengthy process of the establishment of the Lesser Peace. In response to a question from an individual, the House of Justice stated, in a letter written on its behalf on 31 January 1985, that: Baha'u'llah's principal mission in appearing at this time in human history is the realization of the oneness of mankind and the establishment of peace among the nations; therefore, all the forces which are focused on accomplishing these ends are influenced by His Revelation. We know, however, that peace will come in stages. First, there will come the Lesser Peace, when the unity of nations will be achieved... The wording of the last sentence, unless I'm seriously mistaken, surely indicates that they used to think the two would happen at the same time? Regards,David _ Are you getting paid enough? Find out at the SEEK Salary Centre http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fmsn%2Eseek%2Eco%2Enz%2Fcareer%2Dresources%2Fsalary%2Dcentre%2F%3Ftracking%3Dsk%3Atl%3Anzsc%3Amsnnz%3A0%3Ahottag%3Apaidenough_t=757263783_r=SEEKNZ_tagline_m=EXT __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:shahramroh...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-408129-8465...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-408211-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Baha'i proofs of the existence of God
The Baha'i Studies Listserv dear Susan, but altogether it should be based on truth.and lead to truth,and not allusions n fictions.Do not u think so? the best/Rohani --- On Wed, 11/19/08, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Baha'i proofs of the existence of God To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Wednesday, November 19, 2008, 12:17 AM The Baha'i Studies Listserv It seems to me that the major function of 'proofs' regarding the existence of God is to establish that belief is not absurd. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Covenant Question(s) [long]
The Baha'i Studies Listserv DEAR SUSAN N GARY, HI ALL FRIENDS, TKS YR GOOD TOPIC N EXPLANATIONS.ACCORDING TO MY PREVIOUS ACADEMIC ISLAMIC STUDIES THE ALAST[ETERNAL] COVENANT SIMPLY REFERS TO THE GRANTED KNOWLEDGE TO MANKIND,WHICH IS CALLED AS FETRAT OR MAN'S NATURE.SUCH A KNOWLEDGE IS BEYOND THE MESSAGES PROVIDED BY THE ABRAHIMIC PROPHETS,INCLUDING MOHAMMAD. IT SEEMS ALSO TO RELATE N INTERPRATE THE HIDDEN WORDS OF BAHAULLAH TO THE ALAST COVENANT IS IRRELEVANT.THEY TALK ABT 2 DIFF THINGS. YOURS, SH.ROHANI --- On Sun, 9/14/08, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Covenant Question(s) [long] To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 8:24 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Gary, I commend you for not taking anything for granted thataha'u'llah's Manifestation. One of the Hidden Words especially ties the Day of Alast with both the Bab and Baha'u'llah's own Manifestation: of all these sources? Have I been missing something all these years? Is all of this trivial nitpicking? Or should we Baha'is stop saying Baha'u'llah said something that maybe He didn't really say? Thanks for your help on this. Gary __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
