subject:"2000 Years of suffering \(Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany\)"

On 8/28/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

[on the appropriateness of anti-Bahai websites]

Dear Gilberto,

Six blocks from my house is a mainstream church whose pastor has taken up an anti-Islamic rhetoric. This rhetoric is posted on their immense signboard in fromt of the church and I might go past it half a dozen times a day. It is constantly covered with misquotes, and out of context quotes from Muhammed and language which incites vilence against Islam.

Ok.

I know, because I have studied Islam, that these misquotes and anti-context statements are untrue and the polemic is vile and evil. I have without much luck talked with this pastor about it.

I appreciate it.

I know that if I want information that is turtuhfully based on Islam, I should look elsewhere than this bigoted moron's polemic.

ok.

Surely you can take the same attitude toward anti-Baha`i polemic.

I think we probably have different notions of where one should draw the line between reasonably critical on the one hand, and hateful and bigoted on the other. Any orthodox Muslim site lookingcomprehensively atthe Bahai faith is going to be critical. It would disagree with the Bahai understanding of seal of the prophets will disagree with how the Bahai faith understands Islamic law, the nature of the mahdi, and other topics. It will view Bahaullah and the Bab, not as Manifestations of God but as ordinary human beings who taught certain principles which simply aren't true. The Muslim sites on the Bahai faith which I've seen don't go much further than that. They don't call on Muslims to fight against Bahais or deny them education or discriminate against them when it comes to jobs or housing.

It has to be a trustworthy source of information to be taken seriously. That particular, peculiar website is not a trustworthy source of information on the Baha`iFaith.

I think what you are saying is a good reason to look for better sources of information about the Babi/Bahai faith if they are available. But they are not a good enough reason to ignore such sites entirely without even stopping to consider their claims.

When I've seen anti-Muslim sites, I would want to argue against them and refute their claims. And when feasable, I've actually spent alot of time doing that. Jochen Katz is this big anti-Muslim Christian missionary and in several electronic forums I've engaged in a long series of debates with him on a number of Muslim-Christian related topics. I didn't ignore him. I didn't tell people not to listen to him. I took his arguments seriously andwrestledwith them.That's how you get to the truth. You kick the tires. You look under the hood. When Bahais tell me to not look at certain sources of information it sounds way too much like Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. I have no problem taking things I hear and read with a grain of salt. But its weird to hear from someone that I should just ignore arguments which are critical of the Bahai faith. If Bahais don't like certain arguments they should be able to refute them, no?

I can point out a dozen folk-lore claims against the Bab and Baha`u'llah that have no more creidibility than the claim that Allah is actually a moon god. A frequently claimed folk-lore calumny against Islam.

Yes, that's one of my favorite theories. some people have made that claim. By all means, hear them out if you want and check out what they have to say. But then here is an entire paper backed up with evidence on why that argument isn't valid.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html

But the simplest response (at the beginning of that paper) is from the Quran itself:

And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Prostrate not to the sun nor to the moon, but prostrate to Allah Who created them, if you (really) worship Him. (41:37)

I mean really, theQuran specifically tells people not to prostrate to the moon but to the God that made it.

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

2005-08-29 Thread Hajir Moghaddam









Gilberto on 8/28 writes:

 Any orthodox Muslim site lookingcomprehensively atthe Bahai faith is going to be critical. It
would disagree with the Bahai understanding of "seal of the prophets" will disagree with how
the Bahai faith understands Islamic law, the nature of the mahdi, and other topics. It will view
Bahaullah and the Bab, not as Manifestations of God but as ordinary human beings who
taught certain principles which simply aren't true.

HiGilberto,

You state that an orthodox Muslim will likely believe thatBaha'u'llah "taughtcertain principles which simply aren't true". Do you actually believe this yourself? Do you believe that the Baha'i views on the nature of the Mahdi, the meanings of the "seal ofthe prophets", and the notion thatGod continues to send Messengers"simply aren't true"?

Thanks,
Hajir
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Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

I didn't say the early Babis were Muslims. I said they had Shi`ah
*expectations*. Everyone now recognizes that the Babi Faith is an
independent religion, different from the Baha'i Faith and different from
Islam. But this is now. Back then, the early Babis had a different
self-perception and self-understanding. That's what matters and it's not
pointless. They observed the fast during Ramadan, performed the Islamic
salAt five times daily, etc., etc. They believed that the Prophet
Muhammad was the Messenger of God, that `Ali, Hasan, Husayn, etc., etc.
were the Prohet's successors, that the Bab and Babis performed the hajj
pilgrimage to K`abah in Mecca, etc., etc. Shi`ah and Shaykhi thoughy was
pre-eminent in their minds. They thought of the the Bab as the Shi`ah
QA'im Mahdi who would fill the world with justice and with the reign of
Islam with His sword, etc., etc. These are all Shi`ah things. Most of
the early Babis believed in taqiyyah, just like the Shi`ah. Etc., etc.,
etc. 

We are talking about what the self-perception of the early Babis was at
that time. Now, keep repeating to me that they misunderstood. As if it
will change their self-conception some 150+ years later. 

It is simply astounding that the Bab was able to contain the zealots,
while He Himslef was being very heavily and viciously peresecuted,
incarcerated, barred from freely and directly communicating with people,
and finally martyred while completely innocent, and His supporters 
followers mercilessly persecuted, harrassed, initimated, and killed. 

Iskandar


 
 
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Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

On 8/29/05, Iskandar Hai [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I didn't say the early Babis were Muslims. I said they had Shi`ah*expectations*.

Ok, this is what you said that made me think you were saying Babis were Muslims:

Regarding Babis and their actions: one needs to remember who the Babiswere. They were Shi`ah Muslims, millenialsts, expecting that thePromised One would kill so much of the unbelivers as to cause rivers of
blood to flow in cities; this, they based upon Shi`ah hadith traditions.
If you had something else in mind, or didn't mean that Babis were Muslims, fine. I'll accept that (about your intentions). The reason why it bothered me is that it seemed like there were Babis who were clearly commiting acts of violence, even to the point of trying to kill the Shah and you still seemed to want to attribute it to Islam even though they had (as I understand it) left Islam.

Everyone now recognizes that the Babi Faith is anindependent religion, different from the Baha'i Faith and different from
Islam. But this is now. Back then, the early Babis had a differentself-perception and self-understanding. That's what matters and it's notpointless.

WhatI was calling pointless was our discussion. If we are arguing back and forth about whether a group of people are Muslim or not, it seemed pointless *without a definition*.

They observed the fast during Ramadan, performed the IslamicsalAt five times daily, etc., etc. They believed that the Prophet
Muhammad was the Messenger of God, that `Ali, Hasan, Husayn, etc., etc.were the Prohet's successors, that the Bab and Babis performed the hajjpilgrimage to K`abah in Mecca, etc., etc.

In the beginning yes. But at some point, the Bab declared that Islamic law was abrogated and that his followers no longer had to do those things. At that point, they were no longer Muslim.

The Bab's followers were called People of the Bayan and *in* the Bayan, it refers to Muslims, by contrast, as the People of the Quran and then instructs the Babis:

In the Persian Bayan, II, 7, the Bab says, `O people of the Bayan! Act not as the people of the Qur'an have acted, for if you do so the fruits of your night will come to naught'.

(if it matters, I'm getting this from a Bahai site... so its not a Babi site but you do what you can)
And then elsewhere the Bab says to the Muslims:

O PEOPLE of the Qur'n! Ye are as nothing unless ye submit unto the Remembrance of God and unto this Book. If ye follow the Cause of God, We will forgive you your sins, and if ye turn aside from Our command, We will, in truth, condemn your souls in Our Book, unto the Most Great Fire. We, verily, do not deal unjustly with men, even to the extent of a speck on a date-stone.
Chapter LXII.

Iskander:We are talking about what the self-perception of the early Babis was atthat time. Now, keep repeating to me that they misunderstood.

Gilberto:
If the Babis in question just had no idea that the Bab said the above, then yes, they misunderstood. (and/or were just misinformed)

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

2005-08-29 Thread Scott Saylors

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Gilberto:
If the Babis in question just had no idea that the Bab said the above, then yes, they misunderstood. (and/or were just misinformed)

Peace

Gilberto

Dear Gilberto,

The simple fact is that the Babi's of the period WERE largely ignorant of the Bayan. It was not distributed at all well, considering that the Bab was incarcerated while it was written.

Babis were much more likely to be versed in the Qayyum'ul Isma, than the Bayan.

That a handful of follwoers of the Bab in gross error attempted the life the Shah without the knowledge of the community at large is an individual crime, not a communal one.

Perhaps the outcome of that act being visited upon the Babis was God's chastisement for the act? Who knows? If so it was a bitter chastisement and we have learned from it.

Regards,

Scott

As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee

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RE: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

2005-08-29 Thread Mark Foster

I think this discussion is generating more heat than light. Why don't we 
cut this thread off at this point?

I second that. 

However, Iskandar, although I have never seen the point of this entire 
discussion, I don't think that Gilberto was attacking you. As I read it, 
he was saying that, as a Muslim, his concerns would be different than 
yours.

Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * Prof. of Sociology * [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Johnson County Community College, Overland Park, Kansas
913-469-8500 x3376 * Fax 913-469-2589 * VOIP 347-983-0161
Mobile 913-768-4244 * http://MarkFoster.net * Office GEB 151D



 
 
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Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

On 8/29/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Gilberto on 8/28 writes:

Any orthodox Muslim site lookingcomprehensively atthe Bahai faith is going to be critical. It
would disagree with the Bahai understanding of seal of the prophets will disagree with how
the Bahai faith understands Islamic law, the nature of the mahdi, and other topics. It will view
Bahaullah and the Bab, not as Manifestations of God but as ordinary human beings who
taught certain principles which simply aren't true.

HiGilberto,

You state that an orthodox Muslim will likely believe thatBaha'u'llah taughtcertain principles which simply aren't true. Do you actually believe this yourself? Do you believe that the Baha'i views on the nature of the Mahdi, the meanings of the seal ofthe prophets, and the notion thatGod continues to send Messengerssimply aren't true?

I accept that Muhammad (saaws) was the last prophet. And I do not believe that the Bab was actually the mahdi.

Peace

Gilberto

Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

I have to repeat and re-repeat: the fact that the early Babis perhaps 
misunderstood the nature of their religion exactly and clearly does 
*NOT* change their own self-understanding 150-160 years ago. Got that? 

Iskandar



 
 
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RE: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

Dear Mark: 

He was attacking Susan, not me. His comment to Susan was that she didn't 
care about his concerns. That's ad hominem. 


 
 
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Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

You don't have to repeat and re-repeat. I think we are talking past one another and will not convince one another of anything on this point. I'm willing to accept that they very earliest Babis who continued to accept the validity of Islamic law and basically saw the Bab as the bab and a Muslim leader were still Muslim. But at some point the Bab abrogated Islamic law, instituted a new calendar, claimed to start a new dispensation, refered to the people of the Quran as a group different from the people of the Bayan etc. and going along with those changes would make a person non-Muslim.

Peace

Gilberto

Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

And I have to repeat and re-repeat again that you are mistaken. And your 
point about the religion of the Bab abrogating the Quran is totally 
irrelevant to this discussion.  

Iskandar
Quoting Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 You don't have to repeat and re-repeat. I think we are talking past
 one 
 another and will not convince one another of anything on this point.
 I'm 
 willing to accept that they very earliest Babis who continued to
 accept  the 
 validity of Islamic law and basically saw the Bab as the bab and a
  Muslim 
 leader were still Muslim. But at some point the Bab abrogated Islamic
  law, 
 instituted a new calendar, claimed to start a new dispensation,
 refered  to 
 the people of the Quran as a group different from the people of
 the 
 Bayan etc. and going along with those changes would make a
 person 
 non-Muslim.


 
 
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RE: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

2005-08-29 Thread Hasan Elias







Mark Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi:

I think this discussion is generating more heat than light. Why don't we cut this thread off at this point?I second that. 
***
I also second that :-)
"...religious truth is not absolute but relative..."
Shoghi Effendi






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Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

I'm fine. I've said my peace. But... as the kids say these days don't start none, it won't be none ... lol...

Peace

Gilberto

On 8/29/05, Hasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Mark Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi:

I think this discussion is generating more heat than light. Why don't we cut this thread off at this point?I second that.
***
I also second that :-)

...religious truth is not absolute but relative...
Shoghi Effendi

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Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On 8/27/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Gilberto:
So you are saying that the quotes in question are just straight up absolute falsifications and are in no way shape or form found in the Bayan??!?!?!?
Second, you still don't get my point. Or maybe you just don't want to.Anyhow, the early Babis had Shi`ah Muslim expectations.

I got your point. You don't seem to get my point. I don't have any difficulty or problem in accepting that Babis came from Muslim backgrounds and may have attitudes similar to the Shii communities they came from. The ONLY thing I was objecting to was how you refered to the Babis AS Shii Muslims. Do you realize that once they became Babis they were no longer Muslims? Yes or no?

Thirdly, althoughthe Babi religion is now recognized as an independent religion differentfrom Islam and Christianity, the early Babis did not have that self-understanding. At least, an overwhelming Majority of them didn't.

Then that's a misunderstanding on their part.
==
That the Babi's of the period considered themselves good muslims - at least in the early stages - is quite understandable. They believed they were following the legitimate Mihdi (Redeemer) of Islam. From that point of view, it was somewhat natural to assume that those who did not follow the Mihdi were the apostates.

Regards,

Scott

Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On 8/26/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
" That may be true. But I was responding more to how the quote was actuallyused. I'm not necessarily claiming that Shoghi Effendi or Abdul-Bahai or any other official Bahai spokesperson is necessarily guilty of what I'm talkingabout. But it is pretty clear that some Bahais do actually have thisattitude"Dear Gilberto,Fortunately, no individual Baha'i, whatever their attitude, would be in the position to make such a decision.

I feel like what I'm saying is just too unpleasant for people to consider and so they seem to be misinterpreting the content of what I am saying in order to reject it. Firstly, some problematic statements which are easy to interpret as anti-Muslim are *already* in the Babi/Bahai writings. So from that perspective authority isn't an issue. The problematic content is *already* backed up by textual authority.

Secondly, even if the texts didn't have anti-Muslim statements, I'm not necessarily claiming that the some official declaration of a future UHJ will approve of rounding up Muslims and putting them in ovens. But I'm mainly thinking of the words and deeds of rank-and-file Bahai whether approved by the UHJ or not.

Peace

GIlberto

Gilberto,

The words and deeds of muslim clergy are justified by the clergy. It has been the clergy who cheered on the mobs.

There is no Baha`i Clergy, therefore no one to egg on the mob.

Authority in Islam rests upon the interpretations ofthe clergy who use those interpretations to garner support among the followers. Authority in the Baha`i Faith rests upon the elected institutions.

I would suggest this is a far greater safeguard against the persecution you fear than anything else.

A Local assembly would have to issue a ruling against muslims - ANY believer in the community would be able to challenge that with the National Assembly. So the fail-safe would have to fail at the national level for that ruling to be upheld. This is a second firewall.

Then any believer in that nation could take the issue up with the Universal House of Justice - which is elected from all the believers in the world. Here is your third level of safeguard.

In the faith NO ONE has the right to interpret for anyone else. In Islam the clergy has the right to insist that the followers interpret as he does individually. How is a mob possible inthe first case?

Regards,

Scott

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Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

be totally sympathetic with that position if we were talking about simplistically parroting general fuzzy subjective claims made by such a website, but instead what we are talking about are specific quotes from the Babi scriptures.

If you can tell me that the website is just objectively lying and those quotes really aren't in the Babi writings I am willing to hear whatever evidence you have in that direction.

Or if you can provide me with context for those quotes which helps me to understand why the Bab would say such harsh things about Muslims I would also be willing to hear whatever you had to say as well.

But just because a website might be generally critical of the Bahai/Babi faith doesn't make it a bad source of information. It just means one should be aware of where they are coming from. Just as pro-Bahai webpages shouldn't automatically be ignored. I read them, but then just try to be aware about where they are coming from. In both cases there will be a bias of some kind. Certain things will be emphasized. Certain things de-emphasized. Certain things put in. Certain things left out.

Peace

Gilberto

Dear Gilberto,

I know, because I have studied Islam, that these misquotes and anti-context statements are untrue and the polemic is vile and evil. I have without much luck talked with this pastor about it.

I know that if I want information that is turtuhfully based on Islam, I should look elsewhere than this bigoted moron's polemic.

Surely you can take the same attitude toward anti-Baha`i polemic. It has to be a trustworthy source of information to be taken seriously. That particular, peculiar website is not a trustworthy source of information on the Baha`iFaith. I can point out a dozen folk-lore claims against the Bab and Baha`u'llah that have no more creidibility than the claim that "Allah" is actually a "moon god." A frequently claimed folk-lore calumny against Islam.

Regards,

Scott

Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

2005-08-28 Thread Iskandar Hai, M.D.

It seems that you are arguing and contending with facts. I'm not sure if
there is much point then in continuing the dialog. But, anyhow, you quoted
two excerpts from that geocities.com anti-Babi and anti-Baha'i website and
the excerpts pointed to specific teachings purportedly in the Arabic
Bayan, Chapter one and Chapter four. I posted to you the actual Arabic
text of Chapter One of the Arabic Bayan and I asked you if you could find
the specific passages in that Chapter. No, I couldn't find such passages
in that Chapter, nor in Chapter 4. I also explained to you Babi teachings
regarding non-Babis and the Bab's stipulations, etc. 

It's a fact that the early Babis, or at lease an overwhelming majority of
them, did not consider themselves non-Muslims. Remember, when you say they
simply misunderstood, the fact that the early Babis had a Shi`ah Muslim
self-pereception and self-understanding is not changed. That's what
matters. Facts. Don't contend with facts. 

Anyway, I had thought that your main concern was with the future. And
enough arguments were presented by Tim, Susan, Brent, and others as to the
nature and character of the Baha'i teachings towards Muslims and what
Bah'is of Muslim or non-Muslim background are already doing, etc., etc.
But now we are discussing Babi teachings (already annulled by Baha'u'llah)
from a spurious anti-Babi website. Oh well. 

Also, for your information, Baha'is are persecuted in Sunni countries as
well. Egypt, and Saudi Arabia specifically. 

Warm regards, 
Iskandar





 
 
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RE: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

2005-08-28 Thread Susan Maneck

 The writings seem to say that each nation will maintain a para-military
sufficient to maintain its own borders and police function.

Dear Scott,

Why do you assume the Writings are talking about a paramilitary as opposed
to a military?

 I see no reason to presume that there will be an international army, nor
an international police force, at least they are not demanded by the
writings.

Shoghi Effendi talked about a world executive back-up by a world police
force of some kind. Brent argues that this applies to the secular phase, but
I think it is hopelessly idealistic to imagine the need for such would
magically disappear once most people become Baha'i. I don't see any place in
the Writings which forsees a 'withering of the state.' Why would the Aqdas
call for the death penalty under certain circumstances if there was to be no
force whatsoever?

However, I do not think such forces would be under the direct control of the
House of Justice as Abdu'l-Baha was pretty emphatic that they not hold
executive power as far as affairs of state go.

warmest, Susan



 
 
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RE: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

" The writings seem to say that each nation will maintain a para-militarysufficient to maintain its own borders and police function."Dear Scott,Why do you assume the Writings are talking about a paramilitary as opposedto a military?

Because both police and armed forces duties are explicit. In this day and time when we speak of police units specialized to perform military operations as "para-military"."I see no reason to presume that there will be an international army, noran international police force, at least they are not demanded by thewritings."Shoghi Effendi talked about a world executive back-up by a world policeforce of some kind. Brent argues that this applies to the secular phase, butI think it is hopelessly idealistic to imagine the need for such wouldmagically disappear once most people become Baha'i. I don't see any place inthe Writings which forsees a 'withering of the state.' Why would the Aqdascall for the death penalty under certain circumstances if there was to be noforce whatsoever?
The "Lesser" Peace is arrived at by non-Baha`i means, and would imply political cooperation to create some kind of world executive authority. I bet this includes military capability to enforce collective security.

However, the "Greater" Peace is supposed to be a peace ensured by the world's spiritual commitment to peace. That, I doubt requires executive force.However, I do not think such forces would be under the direct control of theHouse of Justice as Abdu'l-Baha was pretty emphatic that they not holdexecutive power as far as affairs of state go.

I don't think it would either. The UHJ is pretty obviously a judicial body and judicial bodies do not command armies.warmest, Susan

Regards,

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Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

2005-08-28 Thread Gilberto Simpson

On 8/28/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It seems that you are arguing and contending with facts. I'm not sure ifthere is much point then in continuing the dialog.

Yes, I agree that our particular exchanges have not been useful or productive. We should agree to disagree.
Hai:It's a fact that the early Babis, or at lease an overwhelming majority ofthem, did not consider themselves non-Muslims.

Gilberto:
This is pointless unless you have a particular definition of Islam in mind. Or at least we should have some criteria or conditions in mind for when people are Muslim or not. From my understanding, a major requirement for being Muslim is to accept the validity of the basic Islamic commandments. Since the Bab at some point announced that Islamic law was actually abrogated and that he came with a new revelation, it seems pretty clear that Babis who accept this claim are not Muslims.

Sometimes Babis/Bahais use a certain amount of hikmat and explaining what their various claims were and that might have lead to some misunderstanding. I was reading that one Bahai pioneer was teaching the faith in Southeast Asia but gave the impression that Bahaullah was a Muslim Sufi shaikh. And alot of Muslims became followers of Bahaullah that way. But when they were ultimately told that according to Bahaullah Islamic law had been abrogated they were very upset and were no longer followers. They were misled as to the nature of what was presented to them.

Maybe something like that went on with the Babis?

Hai:
Also, for your information, Baha'is are persecuted in Sunni countries aswell. Egypt, and Saudi Arabia specifically.
Yes, even mainstream Muslims are persecuted in Saudi Arabia. That regime has alot of problems even from a Muslim perspective. Religious sites being destroyed. Tombs, etc.
Peace

Gilberto

RE: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

2005-08-28 Thread Susan Maneck

 Because both police and armed forces duties are explicit. In this day and
time when we speak of police units specialized to perform military
operations as para-military.

Dear Scott,

When I think of paramilitary, I think of citizen militias.

However, the Greater Peace is supposed to be a peace ensured by the
world's spiritual commitment to peace.

I thought it had as much to do with the world's commitment to the Baha'i
Teachings.

 That, I doubt requires executive force.

Then why a death penalty in the Aqdas? Doesn't that imply coercive force?

I don't think it would either. The UHJ is pretty obviously a judicial body
and judicial bodies do not command armies.

It is primarily a legislative body, though judicial functions appear to be
under their authority as well.

warmest, Susan





 
 
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RE: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

2005-08-28 Thread Susan Maneck

Think rather of police units trained to deal with terrorist acts and hostage
situations. SWAT teams, Hostage Rescue, etc.

Dear Scott,

Well, here's the dictionary defintion:

Of, relating to, or being a group of civilians organized in a military
fashion, especially to operate in place of or assist regular army troops.
http://www.answers.com/topic/paramilitary


In most countries legislative bodies do not control the military either, it
generally does not work well.

I agree and apparently so does Abdu'l-Baha. ;-}




 
 
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RE: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

2005-08-27 Thread Brent Poirier

The institutions the Guardian and the Master write about, the International 
Executive, the International Executive, the International Force -- none of 
these are Baha'i institutions, none of these are under the governance of the 
Universal House of Justice.

This is the secular stage of the internationalization of human society 
envisioned by Shoghi Effendi.

I have never read a statement anywhere in the Baha'i Writings that the 
Universal House of Justice will control an international police or military 
force.

It is my understanding that by the time of the universal recognition of 
Baha'u'llah, by the time the peoples and nations of the world want the 
leadership of the Universal House of Justice, war, prejudice and sectarian 
hatred will have been voluntarily spiritually given up, and involuntarily 
purged, from the face of the earth.

In the as yet untranslated portion of the Dawn-Breakers, the portion dealing 
with the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, Nabil has recorded a statement of 
Baha'u'llah to some princes.  Mr. Taherzadeh has translated some of it:

To the same enquirer Bah'u'llh further said, 'My purpose
in coming to this corrupt world where the tyrants and traitors,
by their acts of cruelty and oppression, have closed the
doors of peace and tranquillity to all mankind, is to establish,
through the power of God and His might, the forces of
justice, trust, security and faith. For instance [in the future]
should a woman ..., who is unsurpassed in her beauty and
adorned with the most exquisite and priceless jewels, travel
unveiled and alone, from the east of the world to the west
thereof, passing through every land and journeying in all
countries, there would be such a standard of justice, trustworthiness and faith 
on the one hand, and lack of treachery
and degradation on the other, that no one would be found
who would wish to rob her of her possessions or to cast a
treacherous and lustful eye upon her beauteous chastity!...'
Then Bah'u'llh affirmed, 'Through the power of God I
shall transform the peoples of the world into this exalted
state and shall open this most great door to the face of all
humanity.
(Quoted in Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah, Volume 2, p. 141)

That gives a glimpse of the world Baha'u'llah has in mind, the world the 
Universal House of Justice will govern.

Brent

 
 
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Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

On 8/26/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That may be true. But I was responding more to how the quote was actuallyused. I'm not necessarily claiming that Shoghi Effendi or Abdul-Bahai or any
other official Bahai spokesperson is necessarily guilty of what I'm talkingabout. But it is pretty clear that some Bahais do actually have thisattitudeDear Gilberto,Fortunately, no individual Baha'i, whatever their attitude, would be in the
position to make such a decision.

Peace

GIlberto

RE: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

2005-08-27 Thread Mark Foster

Title: RE: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

The Universal Court of Arbitration and the International Tribunal are the same. When the Bah' State will be established they will be merged in the Universal House of Justice.
-- From a letter, dated June 17, 1933, written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi
http://bahai-library.com/?file=uhj_equality_monogamy_uhj

It appears to me as though the Guardian believed that the International (or Supreme) Tribunal, which he elsewhere connected with the Lesser Peace, would, in a Baha'i State, become an agency of the Universal House of Justice. Although I see this as the most likely reading, there are other possibilities, too.

The above sentences may reflect Shoghi Effendi's expections at the time, but, as we have recently seen with the Lesser Peace, I don't think anyone will know until the time has come.

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net
... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called
a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com

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RE: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

2005-08-27 Thread Susan Maneck

The Will and Testament states that the House of Justice makes the laws and the 
government enforces them. Presumably the army and the police force would be the 
government, which I take to be the executive functions. 



 
 
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Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

2005-08-27 Thread Iskandar Hai, M.D.

You don't understand. The Babis were not born into Babi families. They
were born into Shi`ah Muslim families for generations. They expected,
according to their own Shi`ah hadith traditions, that the Promised One
would cause rivers of blood to flow. The Shi`ah still have very militant
expectations. The Bab had to contain them. And He did quite well, given
the background circumstances. 

If a Baha'i fornicates or uses drugs and manages to successfuly hide it
from Baha'i institutions, obviuosly s/he can't be punished. But this is
quite different from what Tim, Susan, Brent, and I have been saying about
the function and responsibilities of the Baha'i Universal House of Justice
as being responsible for safeguarding and promoting world peace 
tranquillity, protecting human dignity, etc., etc. Issues of governance
are not in the hands of indidual Baha'is, they are the prerogative of the
Universal House of Justice. But Baha'i administrative institutions are not
supposed to pry into the private lives of individuals in their bedrooms,
etc. Except, when it becomes public and Baha'i administrative institutions
then have to deal with it. Baha'i Writings and the constitution of the
Universal House of Justice call on Baha'i to love their fellow human
beings, to be long-suffering, patient, forbearing, and tolerant; not to
persecute any one.

Regarding rude and offensive language: with all due respect, quite
frankly, I found your comment about Baha'is putting people in ovens quite
distasteful, unwarranted, and offensive too. 

Warm regards, 
Iskandar





 
 
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Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

On 8/27/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You don't understand. The Babis were not born into Babi families. Theywere born into Shi`ah Muslim families for generations.

No, I understood that part. But once they became Babis they were no longer Muslims. That is why I objected to you calling them Muslims.

They expected,according to their own Shi`ah hadith traditions, that the Promised Onewould cause rivers of blood to flow. The Shi`ah still have very militant
expectations. The Bab had to contain them. And He did quite well, giventhe background circumstances.

From things I've read, that seems a little too simple.

On the migration of the Russian ambassador, to create an atmosphere of chaos and strife in Iran, Bab wrote the following sentences in Bayan,

O my followers! Surely Allah has made fighting obligatory for you. You must conquer the cities and the people for Babism and don't be at peace with those who reject Babism. (Bayan, Arabic Chapter 1)

Allah has made obligatory on every Babi king that he should not let a single person remain alive in his kingdom who does not accept Babism. (Bayan, Arabic Chapter1 ) 3. Loot and plunder the properties of those who do not accept Babism. (Bayan, Arabic Chapter 1) 4. Erase all the books from the face of the earth except those written about Babism (Bayan, Arabic Chapter 1) 5. O enemies of Bab!! Even if you bathe 1000 times, you will never become clean, (Bayan, Persian Chapter 2 ) 6. If a Babi acquires a thing from a non-Babi, then by the transfer of the thing, it becomes lawful for him. (Bayan, Chapter 4)

http://www.geocities.com/thebahaitruth/bahai03.html

Those aren't Muslim hadith. Those are apparently Babi teachings.
Peace

Gilberto

Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

2005-08-27 Thread Hasan Elias







Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi:



http://www.geocities.com/thebahaitruth/bahai03.html

Those aren't Muslim hadith. Those are apparently Babi teachings.



Gilberto, it is not impartial for the study to mention a Web Site where there are a lot of misrepresentations and antagonistic spirit towards the Bah' Faith.
"...religious truth is not absolute but relative..."
Shoghi Effendi






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Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

On 8/27/05, Hasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi:

http://www.geocities.com/thebahaitruth/bahai03.html

Those aren't Muslim hadith. Those are apparently Babi teachings.

Gilberto, it is not impartial for the study to mention a Web Site where there are a lot of misrepresentations and antagonistic spirit towards the Bah' Faith.

And I would be totally sympathetic with that position if we were talking about simplistically parroting general fuzzy subjective claims made by such a website, but instead what we are talking about are specific quotes from the Babi scriptures.

If you can tell me that the website is just objectively lying and those quotes really aren't in the Babi writings I am willing to hear whatever evidence you have in that direction.

Peace

Gilberto

Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

2005-08-27 Thread Iskandar Hai, M.D.

First of all, that website is an unscholarly polemical attack on the Babi
and Baha'i religions; it's full of misrepresentations, distortions,
mistranslations, false claims and outright errors. If you read Arabic, you
can see and read the Arabic Bayan for yourself on the web. For instance,
here is Chapter 1 of the Arabic Bayan: 
http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/areprint/bab/A-F/b/bayana/ba082.gif  

http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/areprint/bab/A-F/b/bayana/bayana.htm 
So, please find those quotes for me in the Arabic Bayan and we can then
have a discussion. 

Second, you still don't get my point. Or maybe you just don't want to.
Anyhow, the early Babis had Shi`ah Muslim expectations. Thirdly, although
the Babi religion is now recognized as an independent religion different
from Islam and Christianity, the early Babis did not have that
self-understanding. At least, an overwhelming Majority of them didn't. The
fact the Bab managed to contain the zealots is simply astounding.

Fourthly, the Bab teaches that sovereignty and dominion, *in principle*,
belongs to the Manifestation of God; but, in actual practice, He lays out
certain stipulations and conditions that have to be fulfilled before any
Babi can seize anthing. For example, He says that if such an act causes
grief (or sadness) (i.e., huzn in Arabic), then it can't be done. On a
concrete level and in actual practice, He makes it impossible. 

Warmest regards, 
Iskandar 






 
 
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Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

2005-08-27 Thread Scott Saylors

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On the migration of the Russian ambassador, to create an atmosphere of chaos and strife in Iran, Bab wrote the following sentences in Bayan,

"O my followers! Surely Allah has made fighting obligatory for you. You must conquer the cities and the people for Babism and don't be at peace with those who reject Babism". (Bayan, Arabic Chapter 1)
"Allah has made obligatory on every Babi king that he should not let a single person remain alive in his kingdom who does not accept Babism. (Bayan, Arabic Chapter1 ) 3. "Loot and plunder the properties of those who do not accept Babism. (Bayan, Arabic Chapter 1) 4. "Erase all the books from the face of the earth except those written about Babism" (Bayan, Arabic Chapter 1) 5. "O enemies of Bab!! Even if you bathe 1000 times, you will never become clean", (Bayan, Persian Chapter 2 ) 6. "If a Babi acquires a thing from a non-Babi, then by the transfer of the thing, it becomes lawful for him". (Bayan, Chapter 4)

http://www.geocities.com/thebahaitruth/bahai03.html

Those aren't Muslim hadith. Those are apparently Babi teachings.
Peace

Gilberto

Dear Gilberto,

You can find a reputable translation of the Bayan into English at: http://bahai-library.com/provisionals/bayan.html#1-1. This is Dennis McEoin's translation, and may have some problems, but its bound to be better than what you are getting from that particular website. At least you can get it in context. How many times has the Qur'an and Muhammed been defamed by people screaming bad translations of verses out of context?

Regards,

Scott

Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)

On 8/27/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On the migration of the Russian ambassador, to create an atmosphere of chaos and strife in Iran, Bab wrote the following sentences in Bayan,

O my followers! Surely Allah has made fighting obligatory for you. You must conquer the cities and the people for Babism and don't be at peace with those who reject Babism. (Bayan, Arabic Chapter 1)

http://www.geocities.com/thebahaitruth/bahai03.html

Those aren't Muslim hadith. Those are apparently Babi teachings.
Peace

Gilberto

Dear Gilberto,

You can find a reputable translation of the Bayan into English at: http://bahai-library.com/provisionals/bayan.html#1-1
. This is Dennis McEoin's translation, and may have some problems, but its bound to be better than what you are getting from that particular website. At least you can get it in context. How many times has the Qur'an and Muhammed been defamed by people screaming bad translations of verses out of context.

Thank you for the website. I'll look at them when I have time. I've already borrowed a paper copy of the Bab's writings some time ago and read through most of it. (But the book itself wasn't complete). This will hopefully expand my exposure.

I totally agree that sometimes things can be taken out of context. At least personally when I've seen people do that to Muslim texts, it has been pretty straightforward for me to find the context and at least say *something* to those people to better explain what is going on. In the Bahai case I haven't often seen that. More often, I've heard people criticize, dismiss and ignore the content of anti-Bahai websites on the grounds that they are anti-Bahai websites.

But thanks again for the info about the Bayan, I'll look through it.

Peace

Gilberto

Re: 2000 Years of suffering (Was Baha'is in Nazi Germany)