subject:"Questions lead to questions more often than not"

I'm sorry but I don't think you are appreciating fully what you said before.

Peace

Gilberto




On 10/12/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 You can go that route and engage in higher criticism of Islamic sources
 and if you do I guess I can respect your curiosity or your desire to
 understand certain aspects of history. But if you are willing to do that,
 then you would be rejecting what the Bahai faith says about the Quran and it
 would give the impression that you are just another Western Orientalist
 Islamophobe as opposed to a Bahai.

 Peace

 Gilberto


 Dear Gilberto,

 I make no difference between the validity of the Gospel and the validity of
 the Qur'an and the validity of the Iqan or Aqdas, or the Qayyum'l Asma.

 These are the BOOK. Each is sufficient to the will of God at the time of
 that particular Apostle of God.

 This does not mean that they do not have literary histories however. We know
 that Baha`u'llah was moved to write verses He later chose to destroy rather
 than disseminate because He thought that the will of God.

 Regards,
 Scott






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RE: Questions lead to questions more often than not

But if you are willing to do that, then you would be rejecting what the
Bahai faith says about the Quran and it would give the impression that you
are just another Western Orientalist Islamophobe as opposed to a Bahai.

Dear Gilberto,

 I myself haven't looked into this Yemenite discoveries enough to have a
definite opinion about them, but I would not reject the application of
higher criticism to the Qur'an or even our own scriptures as a matter of
principle. Nor do I think it is necessary to take the letters written on the
Guardian's behalf as meaning there are no mistakes whatsoever in the text of
the Qur'an as we have it today. Let the evidence stand on its own without
resort to authority or to labeling certain approaches as automatically
Islamophobic.

warmest, Susan



 
 
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Re: Questions lead to questions more often than not









 Scott's entitled to his opinion and should study issues from multiplesides, but if you are going to argue that the Quran which exists todayis changed from the original Quran and so the current Quran isincomplete, I don't think that position can be characterized as"pro-Islam" and it still seems pretty clearly inconsistent withstatements in the Bahai writings about the Quran.
Gilberto, I would agree that this position that the Qur'an is incomplete is just as anti-Islamic as believe that the Gospel is incomplete is anti-Christian.

One of the basic beliefs of the Baha'iFaith is Progressive Revelation, whichsays that none of the Books of God are complete-for-all-time,*even if*the original Book is unchanged.

** I guess now, your question comes down to this, and I need to think about it a while: Do the Baha'i writings really say that the Qur'an is absolutely the perfect Book of God, word-for-word, and that (1) all the revelation given to Muhammad is really in the Qur'an, and (2) that "other things" didn't creep into the Qur'an? **

Anyone, any ideas?


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Re: Questions lead to questions more often than not

** I guess now, your question comes down to this, and I need to think about it a while: Do the Baha'i writings really say that the Qur'an is absolutely the perfect Book of God, word-for-word, and that (1) all the revelation given to Muhammad is really in the Qur'an, and (2) that "other things" didn't creep into the Qur'an? **

Gilberto,

I thought about it a while, and here are some what i can think of:

1. Shoghi Effendi taught that religious truth is relative, therefore, none of the Books of God, including the writings of Baha'u'llah, contain all of God's guidance. What each of the Books do contain is the *perfectly appropriate* amount of guidance for their particular time. Therefore, The Gospel was perfectly appropriate until the coming of the Qur'an, which was perfectly appropriate until the coming of the Bayan, which was perfectly appropriate until the coming of the Aqdas.

2.Then any absolutist statements made in the writings must be taken in context. Shoghi Effendi does say that the Qur'an is authentic, and the Qur'an itself says that it is complete. But since religious truth is *relative* in nature (the only absolute is God Himself), then the statement that the Qur'an is authentic and that it is complete is *made in relation to what came before it*. In relation to the Gospel, the Qur'an is perfect, fully authentic, and the complete testament of God.

3. This two points above are backed up by history as well. There was division in early Islam about who's Qur'an was the really Qur'an. See the references below:

---

The second traditionin Usul Kafi which has been widely misinterpreted,states that what has been revealed to Prophet was as much as 17000 verses.Although this tradition is not rated authentic, there are twoexplanations for that. The first possibility mentioned by our scholarsis that, the verses of Quran were originally shorter, and when thecompanions compiled the Quran, they appended short verses and therebythe number of verses reduced without any change to content of Quran.The second possibility is that which was given by Shaikh Saduq (RA)who is the number one Shi'a scholar in the field of Hadith: "We say that so much of revelation has come down which is not embodied in the present Quran that if it were to be collected, its extent would undoubtedly be 17000 verses ... Although all
of them were revelation but they (the extra ones) are NOT a part of Quran. If they would be a part of Quran, it would surely have been included in the Quran we have."Shi'i reference: Shi'ite Creed (al-I'tiqadat al-Imamiyyah), by Shaykh Saduq, English version, pp 78-79.The transcript of the Quran that Imam Ali wrote contained commentaryand hermeneutic interpretation (Tafsir and Ta'wil) from the HolyProphet some of which had been sent down as revelation but NOT as apart of the text of Quran. A small amount of such texts can be found insome traditions in Usul al-Kafi and else. These pieces of information wereDivine commentary of the text of Quran which was revealed along withQuranic verses but were NOT parts of Quran. Thu!
s the
commentary versesand Quranic verses could sum up to 17000 verses. As Sunnis know, HadithQudsi is also revelation, but they are not a part of Quran. In fact Qurantestifies that anything that Prophet said was revelation. Allah Almightysaid in Quran about Prophet Muhammad that: "Nor does he (Muhammad) speak out of his desire. It is no less than a revelation that is revealed." (Quran 53:3-4).Thus all the speeches of Prophet were revelation, and surely the speechesof Prophet was not limitted to Quran. It includes interpretation of Quran(part of which were direct revelation) as well as his Sunnah (part of whichwere indirect revelation).
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Re: Questions lead to questions more often than not

therefore, none of the Books of God, including the writings of Baha'u'llah, contain all of God's guidance.

This isn't really true, because since we are living in the time of the Baha'u'llah, I can say that the writings of Baha'u'llah *do* contain *all* of God's guidance for us.

Follow my logic?
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Re: Questions lead to questions more often than not

On 10/12/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  But if you are willing to do that, then you would be rejecting what the
 Bahai faith says about the Quran and it would give the impression that you
 are just another Western Orientalist Islamophobe as opposed to a Bahai. 

 Gilberto, you are so fair and thoughtful and analytical in so many areas,
 but when it comes to the Qur'an, you become unfair, in my view.  Why, in
 your view, does thoughtful analysis of the Qur'an label someone as an
 Islamophobe, but similar analysis of the Bible labels the same person
 enlightened?

I don't remember if I used the term enlightened. But okay, let me try
to be more careful. Forget the term Islamophobe. In general I think it
is legitimate to question all sorts of things. If people want to
criticize the Quran and hold its origins up to scrutiny. Fine. I'm not
opposed to that in general.

But I would think that if someone is going be a Bahai and represent a
Bahai view, then that implies that the discussion should happen within
certain parameters. So for example, I've come across more than a few
fundamentalist Christians who argue that Muhammad (saaws) was a child
molestor or a bloodthirsty tyrant (audhubillah) but I wouldn't expect
a Bahai to make an argument like that because the Bahai faith holds a
very high opinion of Muhammad.

Or to give another example, I would *expect* a Bahai to say that
Muhammad was not the last prophet. So that would be an area where
orthodox Islam teaches one thing, and it makes sense that the Bahai
faith disagrees.

But now to go back to what Scott said, I would *expect* a secular
Westerner (especially an Islamophobic one)  to easily accept academic
arguments which cast doubt on the Quran's origins. But I wouldn't
expect a Bahai to accept the same arguments because (in my
understanding) it also undermines the foundations of the Bahai faith
as well as the foundations of Islam.

So I think it would be fair to say that Scott seems more willing to
attack the foundations of Islam, in this particular way, than I would
have expected from a Bahai. It was a comment that I would not have
expected from a Bahai but I would have expected it from someone with
more animostiy to Islam. I'm NOT saying that Scott is actually that
way. But he acted in ways reminiscent to people like that.

Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: Questions lead to questions more often than not

2005-10-12 Thread Scott Saylors

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

So I think it would be fair to say that Scott seems more willing toattack the foundations of Islam, in this particular way, than I wouldhave expected from a Bahai. It was a comment that I would not haveexpected from a Bahai but I would have expected it from someone withmore animostiy to Islam. I'm NOT saying that Scott is actually thatway. But he acted in ways reminiscent to people like that.PeaceGilberto

Dear Gilberto,

I made no attack at all. I said that Islam will have to adapt, just as Cjristianity has had to adapt, as Judaism has had to adapt, as Baha`i will have to adapt in the future when that time comes in its evolution. The eternal faith of God never changes, but all the Revelations have a cycle from birth to senescence. This is the basis for the quality of "relative truth". It is always perfect relevant to the Revelation, it is never complete in itself.

That is no more an attack on Islam than it is an attack on Baha`i.

Dealing with these questions as if they are somehow an attack on the truth of Islam is going to be insufficient for Islam to adapt.

Regards,
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee

RE: Questions lead to questions more often than not


So was the Guardian wrong when he said this.

Dear Gilberto,

There is your absolutist thinking again. The letter written on the
Guardian's behalf (not in his own words) was making the point that where the
Bible and the Qur'an differed the Qur'an had authority because it
represented the Manifestation's own words, unlike the Bible.
 but if you are going to argue that the Quran which exists today
is changed from the original Quran and so the current Quran is
incomplete, I don't think that position can be characterized as
pro-Islam and it still seems pretty clearly inconsistent with
statements in the Bahai writings about the Quran.

I don't think it is either pro or anti-Islamic in and of itself. Granted if
the Qur'an has had significant changes that would present some problems. If
it is merely incomplete it would not effect its authoritative nature, at
least from a Baha'i standpoint.

warmest, Susan




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Re: Questions lead to questions more often than not

2005-10-12 Thread Scott Saylors

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On 10/12/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Scott's entitled to his opinion and should study issues from multiple sides, but if you are going to argue that the Quran which exists today is changed from the original Quran and so the current Quran is incomplete, I don't think that position can be characterized as "pro-Islam" and it still seems pretty clearly inconsistent with statements in the Bahai writings about the Quran. Gilberto, I would agree that this position that the Qur'an is incomplete is just as anti-Islamic as believe that the Gospel is incomplete is anti-Christian.OK. Let's start with that. Scott actually did suggest that there wasan old copy of the Quran with extra verses which disagreed with thestandard Uthmanic text followed by Sunnis and Shias all over theworld. So he actually *is* suggesting that the Quran is incomplete, soby your defi!
nition
his position *is* anti-Islamic.

I stated that at this point there appear to be further verses in the oldest versions of the Qur'an. This does not mean that the Qur'an as we have known it is unauthentic.
---At the same time, Bahais will often swear up and down that they arenot anti-Islamic. And so that is exactly why I thought Scott'sposition was odd and worth commenting on.
-
I said nothing anti-Islamic. I did not say the Qur'an was in error, I said it appears to be subject to a literary history just like the Bible.
-But secondly, from my side, I think I would actually say quite plainlythat I disagree with certain teachings widely held by mainstreamChristians. I might try to be polite and not go out of my way tooffend, but I don't think I would be inclined to mince words. I'm nota Christian. I disagree with certain parts of the Bible. Ifconsciously not being a Christian is "anti-Christian" so be it. I trynot to be mean. I think Christians can be great people. I haveChristian friends. But I don't believe as they believe. For me that isjust being candid and honest.
--

I would note further that it does not make any demand on you to think of Islam as adaptive either. Islam HAS adapted in its history. It adapted from the wordsof the Prophet when Abu Bakr and Uthman took up the sword. It adapted to the disappearance of the Imamate. It adapted to the end of the Caliphate. Islam has adapted in the past, and it will be called upon to adapt in the future, or it will fragment, splinter and break. If Islam does fail in that regard it says NOTHING about the truth of the Prophet and His words as recorded in the Qur'an whcih are divine writ - whether we have to rethink what is in the Qur'an or not.

Judaism had to adapt to the building of the Temple. It had to adapt to the loss of the Temple. It has done so. The services at a synagogue have little to do with the worship at the Temple, there is no priesthood anyhmore, but Judaism adapted.

Christianity adapted too. It adapted to reach the gentiles, it adapted to the Nicaean council, it adapted to the Reformation. It adapted to the Renascence and the Age of Enlightenment.

Judaism was most forced to adapt when the Temple was lost after the Revelation of Christ but before it was firmly established. Christianity had to adapt substantively to the challenge of Muhammed particularly in the years when Islam was being firmly established.

This is because there was a new Revelation. Judaism did not recognize Christ's Revelation. Christianity did not recognize the Revelation of Muhammed, but both were forced to adapt.

In my personal religious opinion. The loss of the Caliphate and the new discovery of the Yemeni fragments are the beginnings of Islam's dance with adaptation that the Revelation of Baha`u'llah brought about.

That has nothing to do with the fact that Gilberto is a muslim who does not accept the possibility of new revelation. Individual muslims are forced to adapt constantly in their faith as the world changes around them. They should take some pride and comfort in the fact that Islam has adapted to change in the past and should be able to do so again in the future.
--But then when I look at the Bahai faith, I also see places where theBahai faith disagrees (in a similar way) with basic Islamic teachingsand basic Christian teachings, but Bahais will often not say in aclear open way what all of those differences of opinion are. I'm notquestioning anyone's intentions but it gives the impression of beingless than candid.
-

"Religion must be voluntary". No one expects you to accept what you cannot accept. But Islam in the point of view of the Baha`i Faith will just have to adapt to this new revelation, acknowledged or not.
- ** I guess now, your question comes down to this, and I need to think about it a while: Do the Baha'i writings

Re: Questions lead to questions more often than not

So I would say that since the Bahai writings distinguish between theQuran and the Bible and say that the Quran is entirely authentic(while not saying the same about the Bible) it seems like that wouldrule out a Bahai from accepting a "higher criticism" type of approach"notwithstanding the opinion of certain historians".

I guess you are right. The whole of the existing Qur'an is authentic. But, there is a lot more that should have been in the Qur'an that was left out. The missing pieces are in the writings of Baha'u'llah.
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Re: Questions lead to questions more often than not

But, there is a lot more that should have been in the Qur'an that was left out. The missing pieces are in the writings of Baha'u'llah.

It all seemslike a continuous learning process. My own statement above doesn't sit well with me.

I guess if I want tobe true to the message of the Baha'i Revelation, I have to stay away from summarizing something as complex as the relationship between the Qur'an and the Aqdas into a single sentence.

Regards,
Hajir
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RE: Questions lead to questions more often than not

I think based on the Writings of the Guardian, we know that "The whole of the existing Qur'an is authentic." is true, at least this is how I understand it at the present time.

Now to my statement"But, there is a lot more that should have been in the Qur'an that was left out."No, I don't think this is accurate. Come to think of it, Baha'u'llah says that each Manifestation revealed a Book based on the capacity of its audience, so the Qur'an was perfect for its time, and its contentshaven't changed since then. 

Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
" I guess you are right. The whole of the existing Qur'an is authentic.But, there is a lot more that should have been in the Qur'an that was leftout."Dear Hajjir,Do we really know this? If so, on what basis?warmest, SusanThe information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediat!
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Re: Questions lead to questions more often than not

2005-10-12 Thread Mark A. Foster

Gilberto,

At 10:39 AM 10/12/2005, you wrote:
So he actually *is* suggesting that the Quran is incomplete, so by your 
definition his position *is* anti-Islamic.

Using your definition, anyone who has a viewpoint different from most Muslims 
would be anti-Islamic. 

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 



 
 
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Re: Questions lead to questions more often than not

On 10/12/05, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto,

 At 10:39 AM 10/12/2005, you wrote:
 So he actually *is* suggesting that the Quran is incomplete, so by your 
 definition his position *is* anti-Islamic.

 Using your definition, anyone who has a viewpoint different from most Muslims 
 would be anti-Islamic.


That's not *my* definition.

Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: Questions lead to questions more often than not

On 10/12/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 So was the Guardian wrong when he said this.

 Dear Gilberto,

 There is your absolutist thinking again.

I think you are mischaracterizing what I'm saying. I'm certainly
capable and willing to make fine nuanced distinctions about issues
like this. The above, in particular was a question, not a dogmatic
absolutist claim.

 The letter written on the
 Guardian's behalf (not in his own words) was making the point that where the
 Bible and the Qur'an differed the Qur'an had authority because it
 represented the Manifestation's own words, unlike the Bible.

That's one interepretation.

  but if you are going to argue that the Quran which exists today
 is changed from the original Quran and so the current Quran is
 incomplete, I don't think that position can be characterized as
 pro-Islam and it still seems pretty clearly inconsistent with
 statements in the Bahai writings about the Quran.

 I don't think it is either pro or anti-Islamic in and of itself. Granted if
 the Qur'an has had significant changes that would present some problems. If
 it is merely incomplete it would not effect its authoritative nature, at
 least from a Baha'i standpoint.

If the Bahai faith is saying that the Quran as it was known in Iran is
the authentically transmitted scripture of the Muhammadan dispensation
it does.

Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: Questions lead to questions more often than not

2005-10-12 Thread Scott Saylors

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On 10/12/05, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: snip I don't think it is either pro or anti-Islamic in and of itself. Granted if the Qur'an has had significant changes that would present some problems. If it is merely incomplete it would not effect its authoritative nature, at least from a Baha'i standpoint.If the Bahai faith is saying that the Quran as it was known in Iran isthe authentically transmitted scripture of the Muhammadan dispensationit does.PeaceGilberto

I see the nuance here, Gilberto. If I quote John 3:16 by itself. It is certainly "accurate" and it is certainly "incomplete" at the same time.

Regards,
Scott

RE: Questions lead to questions more often than not




Dear 
Gilberto, 

It is 
not the transmission that makes it authentic, it is the source. 


warmest, Susan 

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Scott 
  SaylorsSent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 8:10 PMTo: 
  Baha'i StudiesSubject: Re: Questions lead to questions more often 
  than not
  
  
  Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote: 
  
On 10/12/05, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: snip 
I don't think it is either pro or anti-Islamic in and of itself. Granted 
if the Qur'an has had significant changes that would present some 
problems. If it is merely incomplete it would not effect its 
authoritative nature, at least from a Baha'i standpoint.If 
the Bahai faith is saying that the Quran as it was known in Iran isthe 
authentically transmitted scripture of the Muhammadan dispensationit 
does.PeaceGilberto

I see the nuance here, Gilberto. If I quote John 3:16 by itself. It is 
certainly "accurate" and it is certainly "incomplete" at the same time.

Regards,
Scott
  
  
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RE: Questions lead to questions more often than not