subject:"RE\: Past Revelations"

Hi, John,

At 09:22 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote:
Mark, Doesn't this also fit, from Baha'u'llah?

Thanks. I just finished writing a short paper on this subject, and I added it. 

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references

It seems like something very different is being claimed by Bahais
though. I don't think I've ever heard a Muslim call Muhammad the
Revealor. God was the source of the revelation, it was conveyed by
Gabriel, and given to Muhammad. (Saaws) Muhammad was more a passive
recipient in the process. That is part of where the doctrine of
illiteracy (ummi) really plays a role. Just as Mary is said to have
conceived Christ in a way different from the way other men were
conceived. The Quran was also conceived in a way different from how
other books were conceived. But I've had the impression that Bahais
seem to be thinking that in some sense the Quran comes *from* Muhammad
himself.

Peace

Gilberto


On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:37:52 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 1/8/2005 6:01:22 PM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Gilberto:
 Islamically the Quran wasn't written by Muhammad, it comes from God.
 Who said different. Muhammed is the Revealor and I refer to that as
 authorship. Actually, Gabriel revealed the Qur'an to Muhammed as is
 mentioned in the Qur'an.
  
 Regards,
  
 Scott__ 
 
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RE: Past Revelations

Hi, John,

At 09:33 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote:
Have you seen anyone do it from Islamic primary sources.  I'd say it would be 
easier because it is wholly authentic, and much longer. 

Yes, especially in certain branches of Tasawwuf (Sufism). Gilberto has also 
given some examples of texts which could be used to justify either universalism 
or inclusivism.

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Past Revelations

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 07:33:56 -0800 (PST), John Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Mark: IMO, Baha'i soteriology is both particularist and inclusivist. That is
 because the particularity of the Baha'i primary sources admit the
 possibility of redemption for those who are not Baha'is. It is difficult to
 make a similar case, although some have tried, from the texts incorporated
 into the New Testament.
 
 John:  Have you seen anyone do it from Islamic primary sources.  I'd say it
 would be easier because it is wholly authentic, and much longer.


I'm not sure if this is what you are asking for, but they seem to be
relevant. And what I find interesting, especially in those hadith is
that they mention tawhid but they don't insist on believing in
Muhammad (saaws) per se.



Those who believe and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the
Christians and the Sabians. Any who believe in Allah and the Last Day,
and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord on
them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
The Quran, Sura 2, Verse 62

Sahih Bukhari 
Volume 1, Book 3, Number 131: 
Narrated Anas: 


I was informed that the Prophet had said to Mu'adh, Whosoever will
meet Allah without associating anything in worship with Him will go to
Paradise. Mu'adh asked the Prophet, Should I not inform the people
of this good news? The Prophet replied, No, I am afraid, lest they
should depend upon it (absolutely).


Sahih Muslim
Book 001, Number 0039: 
It is narrated on the authority of 'Uthman that the Messenger of Allah
(may peace be upon him) said. He who died knowing (fully well) that
there is no god but Allah entered Paradise

Sahih Muslim
Book 001, Number 0048: 
It is narrated on the authority of Mu'adh b. Jabal that the Messenger
of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Mu'adh, do you know the right
of Allah over His bondsmen? He (Mu'adh) said: Allah and His Apostle
know best. He (the Messenger of Allah) said: That Allah alone should
be worshipped and nothing should be associated with Him. He (the Holy
Prophet) said: What right have they (bondsmen) upon Him in case they
do it? He (Mu'adh) said: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy
Prophet) said: That He would not punish them.


Peace

GIlberto


My people are hydroponic

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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references

Gilberto,

At 09:51 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote:
It seems like something very different is being claimed by Bahais though.

Very much so. Here are my own understandings:

The Baha'i concept of divine Manifestation is probably closer to the mainline 
christologies of Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy, minus 
their incarnationist and anthropomorphic aspects, than it is to certain Islamic 
and Jewish views of Prophets as ordinary humans. 

The Prophet is a reflection of God. One might say that the mainline 
Christianities have been substantially correct about the station of Christ. 
However, they have been largely incorrect concerning the position of the 
Essence of God. 

Although God's Essence is not incarnated into His Manifestations, His Will and 
His Logos are incarnated into Them. One may, in a sense, call each of the 
Prophets God (or, as I prefer, our personal God), as long as one keeps in 
mind the distinction between divine Essence and divine Manifestation.

In addition, each Manifestation is, to use my term, a product of a Prophetic 
ecology. On one level, the Prophet is an ordinary man encountering, or 
embedded and contextualized in, a family, community, society, and culture. His 
consciousness of His divine nature develops only gradually. On another level, 
the Prophet *is* the Word and Will of God, The dialectic or synergy between His 
divinity and humanity allows Him to interact with His fellow human beings.

The Angel Gabriel does not refer to something apart from Muhammad. It was a 
metaphor for His divine nature, His Holy Spirit, which enabled Him, Mirza 
Husayn Ali (Baha'u'llah's human side), to deliver His message. Similar 
metaphors for Holy Spirits were, from a Baha'i perspective, used by Moses (the 
Burning Bush), by Zoroaster (the Sacred Fire), by Jesus (the Dove), by the Bab 
(His vision of the Imam Husayn), and by Baha'u'llah (His vision of the Maiden).

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references

Oops!

The Angel Gabriel does not refer to something apart from Muhammad. It was a 
metaphor for His divine nature, His Holy Spirit, which enabled Him, Mirza 
Husayn Ali (Baha'u'llah's human side), to deliver His message.

I forgot I was talking about Muhammad. 

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:18:52 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto,
 
 At 09:51 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote:
 It seems like something very different is being claimed by Bahais though.
 

Mark:
 Very much so. Here are my own understandings:

 
 The Baha'i concept of divine Manifestation is probably closer to the 
 mainline christologies of Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, and Eastern  
 Orthodoxy, minus their incarnationist and anthropomorphic aspects, than it  
 is to certain Islamic and Jewish views of Prophets as ordinary humans.


Gilberto:
Ok


Mark:
 The Prophet is a reflection of God. One might say that the mainline 
 Christianities have been substantially correct about the station of Christ. 
 However, they have been largely incorrect concerning the position of the 
 Essence of God.
 
 Although God's Essence is not incarnated into His Manifestations, His Will 
 and His Logos are incarnated into Them. One may, in a sense, call each of the 
 Prophets God (or, as I prefer, our personal God), as long as one keeps in 
 mind the distinction between divine Essence and divine Manifestation.

Gilberto:
But if there is this real distinction between the Manifestation and
the Essence of God, what reason would there be to blur that
distinction with language which could lead to confusion? Is it in
order to make it easier for people who come from Incarnational types
of backgrounds (Christians and Hindus I guess) feel more comfortable
as if they don't have to give up as much?


Mark: 
 The Angel Gabriel does not refer to something apart from Muhammad. It was a 
 metaphor for His divine nature, His Holy Spirit, which enabled Him, Mirza 
 Husayn Ali (Baha'u'llah's human side), to deliver His message. Similar 
 metaphors for Holy Spirits were, from a Baha'i perspective, used by Moses 
 (the Burning Bush), by Zoroaster (the Sacred Fire), by Jesus (the Dove), by 
 the Bab (His vision of the Imam Husayn), and by Baha'u'llah (His vision of 
 the Maiden).

Gilberto:
It actually sounds alot like Crowley now. Didn't he have a similar
conception. I forget the exact term now but one adopted the
terminology of spirits and angels  but it was really just an
expression of your True Will?

Peace

Gilberto


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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references

Hi, Gilberto,

At 11:47 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote:
But if there is this real distinction between the Manifestation and the 
Essence of God, what reason would there be to blur that distinction with 
language which could lead to confusion? 

What language?

Is it in order to make it easier for people who come from Incarnational types 
of backgrounds (Christians and Hindus I guess) feel more comfortable as if 
they don't have to give up as much?

Not from my perspective, but I am not much of an apologist.

It actually sounds alot like Crowley now. Didn't he have a similar 
conception. I forget the exact term now but one adopted the terminology of 
spirits and angels  but it was really just an expression of your True Will?

Yes, he even used the term maiden, coincidentally enough, but not in the same 
sense as Baha'u'llah. To Crowley, all these beings were simply names for 
expressions of one's true Will, which is why he regarded himself as a 
nominalist. (For some reason, a lot of writers don't seem to get that point.)

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 12:08:31 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi, Gilberto,
 
 At 11:47 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote:
 But if there is this real distinction between the Manifestation and the 
 Essence of God, what reason would there be to blur that distinction with 
 language which could lead to confusion?

Mark: 
 What language?

Gilberto:
When you say that the Manifestations can be called God.

Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references

At 01:25 PM 1/9/2005, you wrote:
When you say that the Manifestations can be called God.

Oh, okay. It is because Baha'u'llah has said that the Prophets can call 
Themselves God:

 Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare:  I am 
God, He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto.  For it 
hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their 
attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are 
made manifest in the world.  Thus, He hath revealed: Those shafts were God's, 
not Thine.  And also He saith:  In truth, they who plighted fealty unto Thee, 
really plighted that fealty unto God.  And were any of them to voice the 
utterance, I am the Messenger of God, He, also, speaketh the truth, the 
indubitable truth.  Even as He saith:  Muhammad is not the father of any man 
among you, but He is the Messenger of God.  Viewed in this light, they are all 
but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence.  And were they 
all to proclaim, I am the Seal of the Prophets, they, verily, utter but the 
truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt.  For they are all but one person, 
one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation.  They are all the 
manifestation of the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last, the 
Seen and the Hidden - all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost 
Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences.  And were they to say, We 
are the Servants of God, this also is a manifest and indisputable fact.  
-- Baha'u'llah, Gleanings, p.54

He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul 
be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven.  Unto this subtle, this 
mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, 
pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the 
substance of God Himself.  He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double 
station.  The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, 
representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this 
testifieth the tradition:  Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with 
God.  I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He 
is that He is.  And in like manner, the words:  Arise, O Muhammad, for lo, 
the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee.  He 
similarly saith:  There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, 
except that They are Thy Servants.  The second station is the human station, 
exemplified by the following verses: I am but a man like you.  Say, praise 
be to my Lord!  Am I more than a man, an apostle?  These Essences of 
Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God's all-pervasive 
grace.  Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme 
sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the 
effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their 
Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from 
the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations.  
-- Baha'u'llah, Gleanings, pp.66-67)

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 14:16:57 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 At 01:25 PM 1/9/2005, you wrote:
 When you say that the Manifestations can be called God.
 
 Oh, okay. It is because Baha'u'llah has said that the Prophets can call 
 Themselves God:

Sure I understand that. And what I'm saying is that it seems like
there is a high potential for confusion.

Peace

Gilberto
-- 


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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references

Gilberto,

At 02:30 PM 1/9/2005, you wrote:
Sure I understand that. And what I'm saying is that it seems like there is a 
high potential for confusion. 

And there are different viewpoints on this subject among Baha'is. However, I am 
not sure that confusion is always a bad thing.

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Past Revelations

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 21:26:44 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Gilberto:
[The doctrine of the finality of prophethood is] not logically 
necessary but various   Islamic texts inform us that
 Muhammad was the final
 prophet. If I accept Muhammad and the Quran and
 even if I throw out every
 other hadith, I still have convincing
 evidence which leads to the conclusion
 that Muhammad was the last
 prophet.

Gilberto:
 In my opinion to believe otherwise
 means you aren't really taking the
texts or the record seriously. 


Rich:
   I can
 take something seriously, but not agree with it. 

Gilberto:
In general sure. In this case it's different.

Rich:
Ibn Khaldun comes to mind.
 A brilliant man, the Muqaddimah was sheer genius. He was in the employ of
 the Ummayyads. To curry favor with them he wrote a piece denouncing tales of
 the Mahdi as mere folk stories and not Islamic. At the time the Ummayyad
 were going neck and neck with the Abbasids who were really playing the
 eschatology card. It was in the Umayyad's interest to down play this and Ibn
 Khaldun was happy to help his patrons out. While I respect Ibn Khaldun, I
 don't agree with this statement. 

Gilberto:
But as far as I know the Bahai faith doesn't teach that Ibn Khaldun
was  a Manifestation of God or an Infallible interpreter.


 That being said, Judah Ha Levi wrote a book called the kazari in which
 he argues that Christianity and Islam are pale comparasons to Judaism and
 that Moses was the last prophet should I take his text seriously. He's
 considered one of Judaism's best and brightest. How about Aquinas, no
 slouch, pretty convincing evidence for the finality of Christ's revelation
 and the continuing of guidence through church tradition. He said no freedom
 for error. Do I condemn Islam because of him. The Summa was brilliant, he
 was a genius. 
 My point is that every religion, so far has had writers showing
 convincing proofs that prophethood and revelation ended with thier
 revelation and have used scripture to proove it. If you look at that whole
 record the proof for finality tends to dwindle.

That's not very convincing to me because Judaism and Christianity have
plenty of explicit statements discussing revelation and prophets
coming after their founders appeared. Islam is different.

Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]

Dear Khazeh,

My original question:

 So my question to you is whether you are willing to say:
 all that is vouchsafed [to Baháu'lláh] was indeed Mentioned before [to
 Muhammad]?
 Peace
 Gilberto
 
 http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43251.html
 
 Dear Gilberto of course in the spirit of the passage you quote from the Holy
 Qur'an [41:43] the simple answer that you ask me to make is YES, YES.

Gilberto:
Ok. Then if all that was vouchsafed to Bahaullah was already mentioned
to Muhammad, I just think it makes alot more sense for me to look to
those great Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the
meaning of the Quran and the sunnah. And nothing would be lost or
missing by doing so.

Peace

Gilberto

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RE: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references

2005-01-08 Thread Khazeh Fananapazir


Dear Khazeh,

My original question:

 So my question to you is whether you are willing to say:
 all that is vouchsafed [to Baháu'lláh] was indeed Mentioned before [to
Muhammad]?
 Peace
 Gilberto 
 http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43251.html
 
 Dear Gilberto of course in the spirit of the passage you quote from the
Holy Qur'an [41:43] the simple answer that you ask me to make is YES, YES.

Gilberto:
Ok. Then if all that was vouchsafed to Baha'u'llah was already mentioned to
Muhammad, I just think it makes alot more sense for me to look to those
great Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the meaning of the
Quran and the sunnah. And nothing would be lost or missing by doing so.

Peace

Gilberto

Dear Gilberto you wrote
** I just think it makes a lot more sense for me to look to those great
Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the meaning of the Quran
and the Sunnah. And nothing would be lost or missing by doing so.
**

Remember I cannot indicate or prescribe any course of action for you.
I am your servant in the Cause of God. I am a mere transient dust in this
ephemeral world. If it makes sense please do so.
But I would be misleading you to say just rest with part of part of a
single verse of this Mighty and All-embracing Divine Revelation. Dearest
Gilbert all the other verses pertinent to this should be read perused,
meditated upon.

*** O My servants!  The one true God is My witness!  This most great, this
fathomless and surging Ocean is near, astonishingly near, unto you.  BEHOLD
IT IS CLOSER TO YOU THAN YOUR LIFE-VEIN!  SWIFT AS THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE
YE CAN, IF YE BUT WISH IT, reach and partake of this imperishable favour,
this God-given grace, this incorruptible gift, this most potent and
unspeakably glorious bounty. 
(Baha'u'llah:  Gleanings, Page: 326)***
O wayfarer in the path of God!  Take thou thy portion of the ocean of His
grace, and deprive not thyself of the things that lie hidden in its depths.
Be thou of them that have partaken of its treasures.  A dewdrop out of this
ocean would, if shed upon all that are in the heavens and on the earth,
suffice to enrich them with the bounty of God, the Almighty, the
All-Knowing, the All-Wise.  With the hands of renunciation draw forth from
its life-giving waters, and sprinkle therewith all created things, that they
may be cleansed from all man-made limitations and may approach the mighty
seat of God, this hallowed and resplendent Spot. 
(Baha'u'llah:  Gleanings, Pages: 279-280)

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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]

Dear Khazeh, 

You cut and pasted the following assertion:

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:14:52 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Nowhere in the Gospels do we find any reference to the
 unity of nations or the unification of mankind as a 
 whole. When Jesus spoke
 to those around Him, He addressed them primarily as individuals rather than
 as component parts of one universal, indivisible entity. The whole surface
 of the earth was as yet unexplored, and the organization of all its peoples
 and nations as one unit could, consequently, not be envisaged, how much less
 proclaimed or established.

Gilberto:
So one way to look at religious history is to strive and make
distinctions among the various religions. You can choose to emphasize
how religions are different from one another. You can say the second
one is better than the first one. The third one is better than the
second one.

Another way to look at religions is to point to the similarities. You
say that world unity wasn't envisioned in the Gospel but even in
Judaism there is a concept of Tikkun Olam or repairing the world
which I've been told is linguistically related to the original
expression for the Bahai term ever advancing civilzation. The vision
was already there in the past. They didn't need someone new to tell
them about it. They just needed to pay attention to what they had.

Even centuries before Jesus in the book of Isaiah the Jews envisioned
how in the future

Isaiah 2:
[4] He shall judge between the nations,
and shall decide for many peoples;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war any more.

Peace

Gilberto


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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:16:50 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 1/8/2005 1:13:34 PM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Gilberto:
 Ok. Then if all that was vouchsafed to Bahaullah was already mentioned
 to Muhammad, I just think it makes alot more sense for me to look to
 those great Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the
 meaning of the Quran and the sunnah. And nothing would be lost or
 missing by doing so.


Scott:
 Baha`u'llah says the knowledge of all the Manifestations was perfect. The
 Revelation to mankind was complete in each one's Self. However, each
 manifestation revealed only what God directed Him to reveal. Therefore
 Muhammed's knowledge was complete, and God's Message was complete in
 Himself. However, what He revealed was limited as God directed.

But the Quran says of itself:

We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered
before their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38)

Here's a story I like which I had discussed a bit on
soc.religion.bahai. I think it would be interesting to mention it
here:

Hillel and Shammai were two great Jewish scholars of the past.

It is said that, in the great days of Hillel and Shammai (before the
time of Jesus) a man came to see Shammai and said, Teach me the torah
while standing on one leg. Shammai promptly picked up a brick and hit
the man
on the side of the head and told him That is impossible, go and learn.
The man then approached Hillel and asked the same of him, he promptly
stood on one leg and said .Treat your neighbour as you would treat
yourself (or in some versions, What is hateful to you, do not do to
others'), that is the torah all the rest is just commentary.

I really like Hillel's answer. I would say that in a real way there is
a huge amount of content already contained in even just La ilaha illa
Allah (No god but God) and the rest is commentary so even just
sticking to the Quran is huge amount of fleshing out and unpacking.
Alot more unpacking with details and examples can be seen if you
include the volumes and volumes of hadith. I don't think anything is
left out. Really.

Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 11:49:53 -0800 (PST), John Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
 Gilberto:
 Ok. Then if all that was vouchsafed to Bahaullah was already mentioned
 to Muhammad, I just think it makes alot more sense for me to look to
 those great Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the
 meaning of the Quran and the sunnah. And nothing would be lost or
 missing by doing so.


 John: 
 But by only looking at the Qur'an, its interpreters, its scholars, its
 saints, etc., you will **not** know which of the verses/teachings to
 consider with the **appropriate** level of degree, emphasis and candor., to 
 quote yourself.

John:
 In other words, Allah has directly intervened through the revelation of
 Baha'u'llah to clarify those questions, those areas of uncertainty.

Gilberto:
IF you believe that God did that through Bahaullah and that he had
that role, sure, that would end the debate. But that's a big if.

Gilberto:
But as a Muslim I can also look let myself be guided by the
interpretations of Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafi, Al-Ghazzali, Rumi, Ibn
al-Arabi, Shah Waliullah, Maturidi, etc. and one advantage is that it
is much more clear and obvious that they are part of a common shared
Islamic tradition. It's not the case that all of their followers are
uniformly condemned as being outside the pale of Islam.

 John:
 Let me setup an analogy to explain this another way.  
 
 (Setup 1) Lets say the Qur'an is the English alphabet A-Z.  
 

OK.

 (Setup 2) Lets also say that since there are different Muslim
 interpretations, from different Muslim scholars, saints, etc., that there
 are different ways to Understand the Holy Qur'an.

Gilberto:
I suspect you might have an exagerated sense of  the extent to which
this is problematic. There is a broad consensus about important
matters. And the areas where scholars disagree generally aren't going
to be worth fighting over.

For example, just among sunnis (Ahl al sunnah wal jamaat) there are
four different interpretations of the laws, four different rites
(Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi, Hanbali) named after the founders. There may
have been aberant periods of history where these differences were more
contentious, but the norm is that followers of one school respect the
rulings of the followers of the other school as valid. They can pray
together, they can pray behind one another, they accept one another as
sunni Muslims. Some of the differences are due to slight differences
in the interpretive principles they apply to the Quran but those
differences are not worth fighting over.

This attitude even extended to theology. For sunnis there are two main
schools. Ashari and Maturidi. Different ways of understanding God,
morality, free-will, etc. Both both are considered valid.

When the scholars disagreed they didn't say I'm the only Muslim and
you are an unbeliever. There was politeness and adab. They said I
believe I'm right with the possibility of being wrong. I believe you
are wrong with the possibility of being right.

John:
  So, the degree and
 emphasis that the various Qur'anic verses need to be understood are not
 all that clear. -  To fit the analogy, lets symbolize this as the Qur'an
 being little wooden blocks of the English alphabet A-Z all thrown into a
 box.  No one knows the order they are supposed to be in.  

One may ask, is Z,
 B, Q, F the correct order?   

Then the situation in Islam might be that all the scholars actually
agree about the order of the letters from
A to W, and some people think it should go X, Y, Z. But then another
group thinks it should go Z, X, Y. But the two groups agree that they
are not going to fight about it because they can still read one
another's books, and they still agree about how all the words are
spelled, and they only have minimal trouble using one another's
dictionaries.

But then the Bahai faith comes along and starts saying that the
alphabet is supposed to go A, Z, X, Q, R, B, V, T, and then throws in
some cyrillic characters in, etc.. The earlier groups had minor
disagreements among themselves, but they all can agree that this new
group is actually wrong.

Peace

Gilberto


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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]

Gilberto: I would say that in a real way there isa huge amount of content already contained in even just "La ilaha illaAllah" (No god but God) "and the rest is commentary" so even juststicking to the Quran is huge amount of fleshing out and unpacking.Alot more unpacking with details and examples can be seen if youinclude the volumes and volumes of hadith. I don't think anything isleft out. Really.
John: To me,your statement is clear testimonyto the Perfection of the Holy Qur'an, the Infinite Power ofthe Wordsfrom God. Iwish that Icouldunveil even one ofthe infinite meanings behind the Qur'anic verses "la ilaha illa Allah" or "In the Name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful", or the seemingly simple letters "Alif Lam Mim".
John: And Iam overtaken with feelings of unworthiness for having been allowed to recognize the Manifestation of His Self and the Fountainhead of His Laws.

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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:24:15 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Dear Khazeh,
 
 My original question:
 
  So my question to you is whether you are willing to say:
  all that is vouchsafed [to Baháu'lláh] was indeed Mentioned before [to
 Muhammad]?
  Peace
  Gilberto
  http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43251.html

  Dear Gilberto of course in the spirit of the passage you quote from the
 Holy Qur'an [41:43] the simple answer that you ask me to make is YES, YES.
 
 Gilberto:
 Ok. Then if all that was vouchsafed to Baha'u'llah was already mentioned to
 Muhammad, I just think it makes alot more sense for me to look to those
 great Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the meaning of the
 Quran and the sunnah. And nothing would be lost or missing by doing so.
 

Khazeh: 
 Dear Gilberto you wrote
 ** I just think it makes a lot more sense for me to look to those great
 Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the meaning of the Quran
 and the Sunnah. And nothing would be lost or missing by doing so.

Khazeh:
 Remember I cannot indicate or prescribe any course of action for you.
 I am your servant in the Cause of God. I am a mere transient dust in this
 ephemeral world. If it makes sense please do so.

OK.

 But I would be misleading you to say just rest with part of part of a
 single verse of this Mighty and All-embracing Divine Revelation.


Gilberto:
But Muslims aren't just resting with a part. Remember, we agreed. ALL
that is vouchsafed to Baháu'lláh was indeed Mentioned before to
Muhammad. ALL of it. There is nothing missing.

And in the Quran it says:

We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered
before their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38)

Even if you want to say that it isn't enough to consult the Quran and
you want to read more writings for guidance, there are plenty of
materials by Muslim awliya which give out details, and explanations,
and go into the topics of the Quran with more and more depth.

Besides, is more revelation really the problem here? Maybe it's just
me, but from my perspective, humanity's biggest problem isn't
ignorance as much as forgetfulness. As human beings, to a large degree
I think we know what we ought to be doing. We know we shouldn't steal
and murder. We know we shouldn't exploit and take advantage of other
people. We know we should try to get along better with our fellow man.
We know we should be more generous and fight less. We know we
shouldn't lie. What we need is to figure out how to do the things we
already know we are supposed to be doing. And I'm not persuaded that
we need a new revelation in order to accomplish that.

Peace

Gilberto



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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references

2005-01-08 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 1/8/2005 3:41:20 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
But Muslims aren't just resting with a part. Remember, we agreed. ALLthat is vouchsafed to Baháu'lláh was indeed Mentioned before toMuhammad. ALL of it. There is nothing missing.And in the Quran it says:We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gatheredbefore their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38)
It is like Christ saying: "I have many things to tell you now, but you cannot bear them."

Muhammed left NOTHING out that He was bidden to write down by God.

Was that ALL Muhammed was aware of? I do not think so.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]

2005-01-08 Thread Popeyesays

In a message dated 1/8/2005 2:59:21 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
But the Quran says of itself:We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gatheredbefore their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38)
Muhammed did not leave anything out of the Book that He was told to reveal.

042.052 PICKTHAL: And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path,
057.016 YUSUFALI: Has not the Time arrived for the Believers that their hearts in all humility should engage in the remembrance of Allah and of the Truth which has been revealed (to them), and that they should not become like those to whom was given Revelation aforetime, but long ages passed over them and their hearts grew hard? For many among them are rebellious transgressors.
069.040
PICKTHAL: That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger.
069.041 PICKTHAL: It is not poet's speech - little is it that ye believe! 069.042 PICKTHAL: Nor diviner's speech - little is it that ye remember! 069.043 PICKTHAL: It is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. 069.044 PICKTHAL: And if he had invented false sayings concerning Us, 069.045 PICKTHAL: We assuredly had taken him by the right hand 069.046PICKTHAL: And then severed his life-artery, 069.047 PICKTHAL: And not one of you could have held Us off from him. 069.048 PICKTHAL: And lo! it is a warrant unto those who ward off (evil). 069.049PICKTHAL: And lo! We know that some among you will deny (it). 069.050 PICKTHAL: And lo! it is indeed an anguish for the disbelievers. 069.051 PICKTHAL: And lo! it is absolute truth. 069.052 PICKTHAL: So glorify the name of thy Tremendous Lord.
Muhammed revealed only what God bade Him reveal, whatever else He might have known.
Baha`u'llah makes it clear that no Messenger speaks other than that which He is instructed to say.

This is true of EACH revelation. One hears Baha`u'llah make the claim to be a Messenger and accepts it or denies it. Some choose one way and some the other. That is between each individual and God. I believe God's Mercy is as boundless as His Justice.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:43:50 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 1/8/2005 2:59:21 PM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 But the Quran says of itself:
 
 We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered
 before their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38)


 Muhammed did not leave anything out of the Book that He 
 was told to reveal.

I don't think that the verses you point to encourage or require the
kind of reading you are talking about. It doesn't seem to make sense
to think that Muhammad was omniscient but then held back important
spiritual truths from the ummah. The Quran doesn't suggest it.

Peace

Gilberto




  
 042.052 
 
 PICKTHAL: And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our
 command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We
 have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo!
 thou verily dost guide unto a right path, 
 057.016 
 YUSUFALI: Has not the Time arrived for the Believers that their hearts in
 all humility should engage in the remembrance of Allah and of the Truth
 which has been revealed (to them), and that they should not become like
 those to whom was given Revelation aforetime, but long ages passed over them
 and their hearts grew hard? For many among them are rebellious
 transgressors. 
 069.040
 
 PICKTHAL: That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger. 
 
 
 069.041 
 PICKTHAL: It is not poet's speech - little is it that ye believe! 
 069.042 
 PICKTHAL: Nor diviner's speech - little is it that ye remember! 
 069.043 
 PICKTHAL: It is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. 
 069.044 
 PICKTHAL: And if he had invented false sayings concerning Us, 
 069.045 
 PICKTHAL: We assuredly had taken him by the right hand 
 069.046 
 PICKTHAL: And then severed his life-artery, 
 069.047 
 PICKTHAL: And not one of you could have held Us off from him. 
 069.048 
 PICKTHAL: And lo! it is a warrant unto those who ward off (evil). 
 069.049 
 PICKTHAL: And lo! We know that some among you will deny (it). 
 069.050 
 PICKTHAL: And lo! it is indeed an anguish for the disbelievers. 
 069.051 
 PICKTHAL: And lo! it is absolute truth. 
 069.052 
 PICKTHAL: So glorify the name of thy Tremendous Lord. 
 
 
 Muhammed revealed only what God bade Him reveal, whatever else He might have
 known.
 
 Baha`u'llah makes it clear that no Messenger speaks other than that which He
 is instructed to say.
 
  
 
 This is true of EACH revelation. One hears Baha`u'llah make the claim to be
 a Messenger and accepts it or denies it. Some choose one way and some the
 other. That is between each individual and God. I believe God's Mercy is as
 boundless as His Justice.
 
  
 
 Regards,
 
  
 
 Scott
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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38]

2005-01-08 Thread Khazeh Fananapazir

 In message
http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43290.html
Dear Gilberto you make several points. This servant, again in the spirit of
amity and affectionate dialogue will remember! And number them and make some
replies. Please God you will look at them with a kindly gaze.
Gilberto:
Point 1] But Muslims aren't just resting with a part. Remember, we agreed.
...

[khazeh replying lovingly]: when I said part of it the it referred to
the Bahaullah Passage that you appear to like. And by part I mean your
appreciation of the first part of the three verse passage quoted at the end
of this letter again [fully!]
Gilberto Simpson
Point 2] 
ALL that is vouchsafed to Baháu'lláh was indeed Mentioned before to
Muhammad. ALL of it. There is nothing missing.

[khazeh humbly]. There is naught missing but the rest of the verse from the
Iqtidaaraat is not looked at by your good self so far.

Gilberto Simpson
Point 3]
And in the Quran it says:

We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered before
their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38)

[khazeh kindly]. We did not leave anything out. Yes certainly dear brother.
But using the same logic, the exact syllogism, the Jews said that the Holy
Quran affirms most strongly that their Book [the Old Testament/the
Tenakh/the Torah] had EVERYTHING COMPLETELY _ NOTHING WAS LEFT OUT OF THE
TORAH. Therefore a fortiori [as they say in logic] people should stay with
the Torah because the Quran affirms it was all there before.
006.154 
YUSUFALI: Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those
who would do right, AND EXPLAINING ALL THINGS IN DETAIL,- and a guide and a
mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. 
PICKTHAL: Again, We gave the Scripture unto Moses, COMPLETE for him who
would do good, AN EXPLANATION OF ALL THINGS, A GUIDANCE AND A MERCY, that
they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. 
SHAKIR: Again, WE GAVE THE BOOK TO MUSA TO COMPLETE (OUR BLESSINGS) ON HIM
WHO WOULD DO GOOD (TO OTHERS), and making plain all things and a guidance
and a mercy, so that they should believe in the meeting of their Lord.

154. Thumma atayna Moosa alkitaba tamaman AAala allathee ahsana watafseelan
likulli shay-in wahudan warahmatan
So the Text of the Quran says the Book of Moses was TAMAAM  complete
[nothing left out]. It repeats again in the same verse : The Book of Moses
was TAFSEELAN LIKULLI SHAIN = AN EXPLANATION OF ALL THINGS
 So this servant would say by this logic of quoting 6:38 they would go on to
say look: we have priority and Our Book is complete. and so on
Remember dearest I am not arguing. I am just offering what I think are true
insights 

Gilberto Simpson
Point 4]
Maybe it's just me, but from my perspective, humanity's biggest problem
isn't ignorance as much as forgetfulness. As human beings, to a large degree
I think we know what we ought to be doing. We know we shouldn't steal and
murder. We know we shouldn't exploit and take advantage of other people. We
know we should try to get along better with our fellow man. We know we
should be more generous and fight less. We know we
shouldn't lie. What we need is to figure out how to do the things we
already know we are supposed to be doing. And I'm not persuaded that
we need a new revelation in order to accomplish that.

http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43290.html

[khazeh] in reply to Point 4.
The latest Revelation confirms the ethics of the past the reminding that the
Comforter was to accomplish. I am a Bahai so with great affection, from my
perspective [as you kindly mentioned your perspective above] this applies:
Namely:
Does not the very operation of the world-unifying forces that are at
work in this age necessitate that He Who is the Bearer of the Message of God
[Bahaullah]  in this day should not only REAFFIRM that self-same exalted
standard of individual conduct inculcated by the Prophets gone before Him,
but embody in His appeal, to all governments and peoples, THE ESSENTIALS OF
THAT SOCIAL CODE, THAT DIVINE ECONOMY, which must guide humanity's concerted
efforts in establishing that all-embracing federation which is to signalize
the advent of the Kingdom of God on this earth? 
(The Writings)

Again in
 http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43290.html 

you say Gilberto 
Point 5]
*there are plenty of materials by Muslim awliya which give out details, and
explanations, and go into the topics of the Quran with more and more
depth.**

[khazeh] replies lovingly:
You seem to have a high regard for the Muslim Awliya [Saints/Holy
Ones/Plural of Wali]. This is wonderful. But let me share with you something
from one of these Awliyaas. Some would say the Noblest Highest Khaatam al
Awliyaa [the Seal of all the Awliya] namely Ibn Arabi. I have here on the
shelf all his books have read them since 30 years. 
In his biggest book Futuuh.aat in the Chapter 366 He says:
**after the disciples of the Mahdi are slain [martyred] 
Waah.idun minhum

Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references

2005-01-08 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 1/8/2005 6:01:22 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Gilberto:Islamically the Quran wasn't written by Muhammad, it comes from God.
Who said different. Muhammed is the Revealor and I refer to that as authorship. Actually, Gabriel revealed the Qur'an to Muhammed as is mentioned in the Qur'an.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]

Gilberto: It doesn't seem to make sense to think that Muhammad was omniscient but then held back important spiritual truths from the ummah. The Quran doesn't suggest it.
John: It is explained by the Qur'an as the Qiyamah, Surah 75.
"1. I swear by the Day of Resurrection; 2. And I swear by the self-reproaching person (a believer). 3. Does man (a disbeliever) think that We shall not assemble his bones? 4. Yes, We are Able to put together in perfect order the tips of his fingers. 5. Nay! (Man denies Resurrection and Reckoning. So) he desires to continue committing sins. 6. He asks: "When will be this Day of Resurrection?" 7. So, when the sight shall be dazed, 8. And the moon will be eclipsed, 9. And the sun and moon will be joined together (by going one into the other or folded up or deprived of their light, etc.) 10. On that Day man will say: "Where (is the refuge) to flee?" 11. No! There is no refuge! 12. Unto your Lord (Alone) will be the place of rest that Day. 13. On that Day man will be informed of what he sent forward (of his evil or good deeds), and what he lef!
t behind
(of his good or evil traditions)."

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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:43:47 -0800 (PST), John Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 Gilberto:  It doesn't seem to make sense to think that Muhammad was
 omniscient but then held back important spiritual truths from the ummah. The
 Quran doesn't suggest it.
 
 
 John:  It is explained by the Qur'an as the Qiyamah, Surah 75.
 

Could you specifically point to which verse you have in mind and how
it points to what we are talking about?

PEace

GIlberto




 1. I swear by the Day of Resurrection; 2. And I swear by the
 self-reproaching person (a believer). 3. Does man (a disbeliever) think that
 We shall not assemble his bones? 4. Yes, We are Able to put together in
 perfect order the tips of his fingers. 5. Nay! (Man denies Resurrection and
 Reckoning. So) he desires to continue committing sins. 6. He asks: When
 will be this Day of Resurrection? 7. So, when the sight shall be dazed, 8.
 And the moon will be eclipsed, 9. And the sun and moon will be joined
 together (by going one into the other or folded up or deprived of their
 light, etc.) 10. On that Day man will say: Where (is the refuge) to flee?
 11. No! There is no refuge! 12. Unto your Lord (Alone) will be the place of
 rest that Day. 13. On that Day man will be informed of what he sent forward
 (of his evil or good deeds), and what he lef! t behind (of his good or evil
 traditions). 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]



 John: It is explained by the Qur'an as the Qiyamah, Surah 75. Gilberto: Could you specifically point to which verse you have in mind and howit points to what we are talking about?
John: What I meant wasthat there are things that will take placeduringQiyamah thatare beyond the Qur'an.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com 

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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38]

Dear Khazeh, 

I'll focus on the more essential aspects to hopefully not get caught
up in details and stick to the more central issues.

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:06:34 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  In message
 http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43290.html
 Dear Gilberto you make several points. This servant, 
 again in the spirit of amity and affectionate dialogue 
 will remember! And number them and make some
 replies. Please God you will look at them with a kindly 
 gaze.



 Gilberto:
 Point 1] But Muslims aren't just resting with a part. Remember, we agreed.
 
 [khazeh replying lovingly]: when I said part of it 
 the it referred to
 the Baha'u'llah Passage that you appear to like. And by 
 part I mean your
 appreciation of the first part of the three verse passage  quoted at the end 
  of this letter again [fully!]

Gilberto:
First things first. If you think the passage forms a unit then it is
good to understand each of its parts.

 Point 2]
 ALL that is vouchsafed to Baháu'lláh was indeed Mentioned before to
 Muhammad. ALL of it. There is nothing missing.

 [khazeh humbly]. There is naught missing but the rest of the verse from the
 Iqtidaaraat is not looked at by your good self so far.

Gilberto:
I've read the whole passage which you shared. I commented on part of
it because it seemed the most relevant.


 Point 3]
 And in the Quran it says:
 
 We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will  be gathered 
 before their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38)
 
 [khazeh kindly]. We did not leave anything out. Yes 
 certainly dear brother.
 But using the same logic, the exact syllogism, the Jews 
 said that the Holy
 Qur'an affirms most strongly that their Book [the Old Testament/the  
 Tenakh/the Torah] had EVERYTHING COMPLETELY _ NOTHING WAS LEFT OUT OF THE
 TORAH. Therefore a fortiori [as they say in logic] people should stay with 
 the Torah because the Qur'an affirms it was all there before.

Gilberto:
I follow your logic and I actually would agree with your conclusion up
to a certain point, but there is a difference.
I actually believe that the original Torah should be thought of as the
word of God just as much as the Quran. I would assume that in it one
could find great depth and wisdom that could guide one to living a
life pleasing to God. I actually believe that there is a lot which is
beautiful and spiritual in Judaism which Christians don't appreciate.
I actually wouldn't try to demean the Torah by saying that the Torah
isn't suitable for cities or in a world with modern technology.

One issue which should be raised however, is that the Torah was a
revelation given to Moses. But if you actually study the history of
the text and modern Biblical scholarship, virtually no Biblical
scholar actually believes that the current first five books of the
Bible (the Penteteuch) was entirely written by Moses (as). The most
widely accepted understanding is something called the documentary
hypothesis. Where scholars have traced the contributions of 4
different authors and styles in the book. And there are indications
that these 4 source materials weren't combined until several centuries
after Moses.

So I'm sure that at least part of the original Torah of Moses is
contained in the Penteteuch but I don't think that the PEnteteuch is
the same as the Torah.

Moreover, as I mentioned before, I really liked the story of Hillel.
If a Jewish person wanted to say that all of Judaism could be summed
up with that which would be hateful to you, do not do to others and
they wanted to say that was a complete religion I actually don't think
I would want to argue with them (Especially if they were serious and
thorough about how they did it). (While discussing this issue in
soc.religion.islam earlier I was pleasantly surprised to learn that
there actually was an attempt to make a religion of Hillelism.)


 006.154
 YUSUFALI: Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those
 who would do right, AND EXPLAINING ALL THINGS IN DETAIL,- and a guide and a
 mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.

Yes, I would actually accept that and have no problem with that verse.
I think the basic idea of perennialism actually fits in rather well
with the Quran. The same essential truths which were given to
Muhammad, were also given to Jesus, were also given to Moses, was also
given to all the prophets. For me personally, the main thing Islam has
going for it is that the teachings were clearly and faithfully
transmitted. I wouldn't say the same thing about Christianity and
Judaism. Although in their original forms they would have been
essentially the same teachings as Islam.



 So this servant would say by this logic of quoting 6:38 they would go on to
 say look: we have priority and Our Book is complete.


Firstly, I don't think time is a big factor. Just because they are
first doesn't give them any automatic credit. Just as the recentness
of the Bahai faith gives them any

Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]



G: Could you specifically point to which verse you have in mind and howit points to what we are talking about?
J: 
(1) On Al-Qiyamatu'l Udhma, the Great Resurrection, God will say things and answer questions that are not in the Qur'an:
[2:210] : Will they wait until Allah comes to them in canopies of clouds, with angels (in His train) and the question is (thus) settled? but to Allah do all questions go back (for decision). 
(2) On Al-Qiyamatu'l Udhma, there will be proclamations (mighty Blast from the Caller) that are not in the Qur'an:
[50:41-2]: And listen for the Day when the Caller will call out from a place quiet near,- The Day when they will hear a (mighty) Blast in (very) truth: that will be the Day of Resurrection. 
(3) On Al-Qiyamatu'l Udhma, everyone will die and be resurrectionon an earth that will shine in a new way. 
[39:68-69]: "And there shall be a blast on the Trumpet, and all who are in the Heaven and all who are on the earth shall expire, save those whom God shall vouchsafe to live. Then shall there be another blast on it, and lo! arising they shall gaze around them: and the earth shall shine with the light of her Lord." 
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Re: Past Revelations

2005-01-07 Thread Rich Ater









  
Ok, other than gender (which I would momentarily exclude only because
I've had that argument several times before and I just want to think
about something else) what would be a concrete example of how we need
more revelation due to human imperfection? I guess what would be an
ideal or principle which is "missing" from one religion, but present
in a later one. Or some other kind of example which would show the
need for *progressive* revelation.
  

Back in thge early 1800s someone suggested that we close the patent
office because everything had already been invented. It was short
sighted. I don't believe that we will ever know everything, it's one of
humanity's limitations. This being the case there will always be need
of new teachers and new laqws to fit the times we live in. I guess for
me, I see Islams legal code as being spent in this time. I also see us
as being able to understand more and in deeper ways than we could in
the past..

  

  
  
As we continue to grow and are able to accept
more, revelation continues. The Muslim concept that revelation ended with
Muhammad (PBUH) and that now God has to find other ways to  
communicate with us ties the hand of God.

  
  

  
  
I don't think anyone is saying that the end of prophethood is
logically necessary.

 Fair enough. The Bab and Baha'u'llah are prophets who came after
Muhammad, since the end of prophethood is not logically necessary I see
no reason to believe it has ended.

  

Rich
  


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Re: Past Revelations

2005-01-07 Thread Gilberto Simpson

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 15:13:45 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  
 Ok, other than gender (which I would momentarily exclude only because
I've
 had that argument several times before and I just want to think
about
 something else) what would be a concrete example of how we need
more
 revelation due to human imperfection? I guess what would be an
ideal or
 principle which is missing from one religion, but present
in a later one.
 Or some other kind of example which would show the
need for *progressive*
 revelation.
 

 I don't believe that we will ever know everything, it's  one of humanity's 
 limitations. This being the case there will always be need of new
 teachers and new laqws to fit the times we live in. I guess for me, I see
 Islams legal code as being spent in this time. I also see us as being able
 to understand more and in deeper ways than we could in the past..

Gilberto:
But specifically how?
 
[...]

 As we continue to grow and are able to accept
 more, revelation continues.

But what I'm wondering about is if there is something genuinely new
that can't be attained through Islam? Why not just try to be a
deepened Muslim?

 The Muslim concept that revelation ended with
Muhammad (PBUH) and that now
 God has to find other ways to 
communicate with us ties the hand of God.

Gilberto:
I really think that we should let the matter drop.
 
Gilberto:
 I don't think anyone is saying that the end of prophethood is
logically
 necessary. 

Rich:
   Fair enough. The Bab and Baha'u'llah are prophets who came
 after Muhammad, since the end of prophethood is not logically necessary I
 see no reason to believe it has ended.
 

Gilberto:
It's not logically necessary but various Islamic texts inform us that
Muhammad was the final prophet. If I accept Muhammad and the Quran and
even if I throw out every other hadith, I still have convincing
evidence which leads to the conclusion that Muhammad was the last
prophet.

In my opinion to believe otherwise means you aren't really taking the
texts or the record seriously.

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: Past Revelations

2005-01-07 Thread Tim Nolan

I guess what would be an ideal or principle which is "missing" from 
one religion, but present in a later one. Or some other kind of example 
which would show the need for *progressive* revelation.
Is the sunlight of Thursday sufficient for Friday?
Isn't it necessary for the sun to rise anew each day?
Doesn't each day need it's own, fresh supply of light?
The need for a new revelationfrom God
isn't only a matter of new teachings. It is also that
humanity is in need of a fresh outpouring from the
boundless Ocean of God's knowledge and love.

The Revelation of Baha'u'llah isn't limited to the
words in the books He authored. This revelation,
like the revelations before it, is a flood of spiritual
light and power. Even those who do not know 
Baha'u'llah's teachings are affected by the
breezesof the Spirit, by the Divine Music
that He brought. 
That's how I see it.


As to specific new teachings not found in past religions,
the Baha'i Faith has a firm, clearly stated, Covenant, written
by Baha'u'llah Himself, and later extended and explained
by Abdu'l Baha, which prevents divisions in the Baha'i community. 
Because of this clear, written Covenant, the rightful successors
of Baha'u'llah were, in fact recognized and the entire Baha'i 
community turned to Abdu'l Baha, then to Shoghi Effendi, 
now to the Universal House of Justice. It is true that there
have been handful of unfaithful, misguided souls who left
the Covenant, but except for those, the Baha'i community 
has remained united.The only reason this has been possible is
that we have the written, emphatic, unambiguous words
of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l Baha, which establish the Covenant.

No other religion, not even Islam, has such a firm Covenant.
Apparently humanity has progressed to the point where
it was ready for such a Covenant.

Tim Nolan
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Re: Past Revelations

2005-01-07 Thread John Smith



G: In my opinion to believe otherwise [Prophethood continues]means you aren't really taking the texts or the record seriously.
J: IfBaha'is **didn't** take the Prophet as the Seal seriously, then Baha'u'llah would **not**have the legitimacy to make the claims that He did. In other words, the only step after the 'End'  'Seal' is God Himself. **This** is why this Day is the Day of God, the Day of Resurrection, the Day of Judgement.
Baha'u'llah in the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf:
In truth I say: On this day the blessed words "But He is the Apostle of God, and the Seal of the Prophets" have found their consummation in the verse "The day when mankind shall stand before the Lord of the worlds." Render thou thanksgiving unto God, for so great a bounty. 

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Re: Past Revelations

2005-01-07 Thread John Smith

G: But what I'm wondering about is if there is something genuinely newthat can't be attained through Islam? Why not just try to be adeepened Muslim?
Here are some in my view:
1. The Covenant of Baha'u'llah naming Abdu'l-Baha as successor, thus ensuring perservation of its Unity and doctrinal integrity.
2. The desciption of Progressive Revelation as successive improvements due to the evolution of human mind. Indirectly support of Scientific Evolution.
3. Use of the Feminine to describe God and the Manifestation, elevating the station of Femininity to Divinity. Now, truely, are men and women equal.
4. Acceptance ofthe Divinity of Christ Establishing the Divinity of Muhammad.
5. Establishing the Oneness of God even AFTER acceptance ofthe Divinity of the Manifestation.
6. Equating the Non-believer with the Believers (non-Baha'is = Baha'is), therefore truely establishing the Oneness of Humanity.
7. Unequivocal statement that All religious truth is relative, thus establishing the Unaccessibility of God (we can't even understand an Absolute, everything is relative).
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Re: Past Revelations

2005-01-07 Thread John Smith





G: But what I'm wondering about is if there is something genuinely newthat can't be attained through Islam? Why not just try to be adeepened Muslim?
Here is another:
8. Baha'u'llah's body of Sacred Scripture(i.e. = Qur'an, not = Hadith), ismore voluminous and covers a wider scope than in any other religion, including the Qur'an.
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Re: Past Revelations

2005-01-07 Thread Rich Ater

I don't believe that we will ever know everything, it's one of humanity's limitations. This being the case there will always be need of new
teachers and new laqws to fit the times we live in. I guess for me, I see
Islams legal code as being spent in this time. I also see us as being able
to understand more and in deeper ways than we could in the past..

Gilberto:
But specifically how?

It varies from age to age. I wish I could give you a simple answer,
but I can't.

[...]

As we continue to grow and are able to accept
more, revelation continues.

But what I'm wondering about is if there is something genuinely new
that can't be attained through Islam? Why not just try to be a
deepened Muslim?

Maybe you can, whom I to say. I just know that I can't. I really
have looked at Islam deeply, Gilberto, and it only takes me so far. If
you takes you farther hamdu'lilah.

Gilberto:
I really think that we should let the matter drop.

Yes it's been beaten to death. Consider it dropped.

Gilberto:

I don't think anyone is saying that the end of prophethood is

logically

necessary.

Rich:
Fair enough. The Bab and Baha'u'llah are prophets who came

after Muhammad, since the end of prophethood is not logically necessary I
see no reason to believe it has ended.

Gilberto:
It's not logically necessary but various Islamic texts inform us that
Muhammad was the final prophet. If I accept Muhammad and the Quran and
even if I throw out every other hadith, I still have convincing
evidence which leads to the conclusion that Muhammad was the last
prophet.

In my opinion to believe otherwise means you aren't really taking the
texts or the record seriously.

I can take something seriously, but not agree with it. Ibn Khaldun
comes to mind. A brilliant man, the Muqaddimah was sheer genius. He was
in the employ of the Ummayyads. To curry favor with them he wrote a
piece denouncing tales of the Mahdi as mere folk stories and not
Islamic. At the time the Ummayyad were going neck and neck with the
Abbasids who were really playing the eschatology card. It was in the
Umayyad's interest to down play this and Ibn Khaldun was happy to help
his patrons out. While I respect Ibn Khaldun, I don't agree with this
statement.
That being said, Judah Ha Levi wrote a book called the kazari in
which he argues that Christianity and Islam are pale comparasons to
Judaism and that Moses was the last prophet should I take his text
seriously. He's considered one of Judaism's best and brightest. How
about Aquinas, no slouch, pretty convincing evidence for the finality
of Christ's revelation and the continuing of guidence through church
tradition. He said no freedom for error. Do I condemn Islam because of
him. The Summa was brilliant, he was a genius.
My point is that every religion, so far has had writers showing
convincing proofs that prophethood and revelation ended with thier
revelation and have used scripture to proove it. If you look at that
whole record the proof for finality tends to dwindle.

Rich

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Re: Past Revelations

2005-01-04 Thread Rich Ater









  

Gilberto:
  
  
 I see your point and would tend to agree with you in
mundane examples
but when you are talking about divine revelation I think
you start to run into problems.

  
  
Rich:
 How so?

Gilberto:
In the mundane case it is easier to deal with the idea that nothing is
perfect so its not a big deal for it to be improved upon later. Like a
sports record... there is always going to be someone else later who
will run faster, be stronger, jump higher, farther, etc. But thinking
of God in that way comes out very much like faint praise. It tends to
accuse God of limitation and imperfection.

Gilberto,

 Sorry for taking so long to respond, it has been a very busy week.
I see your point, however, it is not God's perfection that is in
question nor His limitations; He has none. It is humanity's that are
the issue in Baha'i theology. The need for continuous revelation is due
to the human race's imperfection and limitations. As we continue to
grow and are able to accept more, revelation continues. The Muslim
concept that revelation ended with Muhammad (PBUH) and that now God has
to find other ways to communicate with us ties the hand of God. God
created us logical and inteligent, I cannot see the logic in ending
revelation in 10 AH anymore than I can see the logic of ending it in 33
AD

Rich

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Re: Past Revelations

2005-01-04 Thread Gilberto Simpson

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 13:40:39 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Gilberto:
 
  I see your point and would tend to agree with you in
 mundane examples but
 when you are talking about divine revelation I think you start to run into
 problems.

 Rich:
 How so?

Gilberto:
In the mundane case it is easier to
 deal with the idea that nothing is
perfect so its not a big deal for it to
 be improved upon later. Like a
sports record... there is always going to be
 someone else later who
will run faster, be stronger, jump higher, farther,
 etc. But thinking
of God in that way comes out very much like faint praise.
 It tends to
accuse God of limitation and imperfection.

Rich:
Gilberto,Sorry
 for taking so long to respond, it has been a very busy week.

Gilberto:
It's Ok.

Rich:
 I see your
 point, however, it is not God's perfection that is in question nor His
 limitations; He has none. It is humanity's that are the issue in Baha'i
 theology. The need for continuous revelation is due to the human race's
 imperfection and limitations.

Ok, other than gender (which I would momentarily exclude only because
I've had that argument several times before and I just want to think
about something else) what would be a concrete example of how we need
more revelation due to human imperfection? I guess what would be an
ideal or principle which is missing from one religion, but present
in a later one. Or some other kind of example which would show the
need for *progressive* revelation.


 As we continue to grow and are able to accept
 more, revelation continues. The Muslim concept that revelation ended with
 Muhammad (PBUH) and that now God has to find other ways to  
 communicate with us ties the hand of God.


Firstly, the idea that God *has* to do anything ties to the hand 

Secondly, the more precise claim is that prophethood has ceased. But,
in Islam,  there are still many and diverse ways for God to
communicate with and guide humanity through all sorts of non-prophets.

 God created us logical and inteligent, I cannot see
 the logic in ending revelation in 10 AH anymore than I can see the logic of
 ending it in 33 AD
 

I don't think anyone is saying that the end of prophethood is
logically necessary.

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: Past Revelations

2004-12-28 Thread Gilberto Simpson

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:23:00 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote
 On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:45:16 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Not true. If I praise the grandeur of Rome it does not mean that
 I think we should remain ruled by emperors or that if I say that Rome's time
 has
 passed and modern democracy is an improvement that I have ceased to
 admire Rome.


Gilberto:
  I see your point and would tend to agree with you in
 mundane examples
 but when you are talking about divine revelation I think
 you start to run into problems.

Rich:
 How so?

Gilberto:
In the mundane case it is easier to deal with the idea that nothing is
perfect so its not a big deal for it to be improved upon later. Like a
sports record... there is always going to be someone else later who
will run faster, be stronger, jump higher, farther, etc. But thinking
of God in that way comes out very much like faint praise. It tends to
accuse God of limitation and imperfection.

Peace

Gilberto



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Re: Past Revelations

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 06:38:01 -, Brent Poirier
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 The Baha'i Writings are filled with praise of the previous 
 Revelations sent down by God.  Similarly, the Writings of all  of the 
 Prophets praise the Revelations that preceded Them.
 
 At the same time, a Revelation is sent for a specific 
 season.  When that season is finished, the force of the 
 Revelation is spent.

I think that for a lot of people, if you say that their religion is
finished and its force is spent, that would tend to contraadict and
overwhelm the claim that you are praising those revelations.

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: Past Revelations

2004-12-27 Thread Mark A. Foster

Gilberto,

At 07:54 AM 12/27/2004, you wrote:
I think that for a lot of people, if you say that their religion is finished 
and its force is spent, that would tend to contraadict and overwhelm the 
claim that you are praising those revelations.

I would want to see the passage on which that statement was made. I do not take 
`Abdu'l-Baha's seasonal analogy as evidence He believed that the force of a 
Revelation could be spent. 

When a person goes from third to fourth grade, the energy of third grade is not 
spent or lost. However, just as the child would normally move on (while still 
benefiting from the knowledge gained in the previous grade), there is a need 
for further Revelation. 

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Past Revelations

2004-12-27 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 12/27/2004 8:41:38 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I would want to see the passage on which that statement was made. I do not take `Abdu'l-Baha's seasonal analogy as evidence He believed that the force of a Revelation could be spent. 
Just because the followers and clergy of a revelation allowed the revelation to fall into ineffectiveness and empty ritual does not mean that the Revelation is "spent". It is uncovered from the dross of empty ritual when the new Revelation is born. So the fulfillment of the Quran is in the revelation of the Bab, so to speak.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Past Revelations

2004-12-27 Thread Popeyesays

In a message dated 12/27/2004 10:45:54 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I'm not sure what you mean. Consider a specific example. Fasting inRamadan. The Quran clearly orders Muslims to fast in the month ofRamadan. And for Muslims this is experienced even today as a veryspiritual time to reflect on their relationship with God, to getaspiritual recharge, to become more disciplined, and to spirituallygrow in all sorts of ways.And while I agree that there are probably individual Muslims who don'tspiritually benefit from their fasting in the fullest possible way Icertainly would not say that in general it is an empty ritual. And Icertainly don't see how the Bahai form of fasting is somehowspiritually any deeper or more fulfilling.
The fast actually goes back further than Islam. Christianity has the example of Jesusfast for forty days in the wilderness and this is reflected in the practice of Lent. Fasting is part and parcel of Hinduism and Buddhism, animism even. So how is the spiritual aspect of the fast in Islam a new idea?

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Past Revelations

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:48:37 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 12/27/2004 10:45:54 AM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 I'm not sure what you mean. Consider a specific example. Fasting in
 Ramadan. The Quran clearly orders Muslims to fast in the month of
 Ramadan. And for Muslims this is experienced even today as a very
 spiritual time to reflect on their relationship with God, to geta
 spiritual recharge, to become more disciplined, and to spiritually
 grow in all sorts of ways.
 
 And while I agree that there are probably individual Muslims who don't
 spiritually benefit from their fasting in the fullest possible way I
 certainly would not  say that in general it is an empty ritual. And I
 certainly don't see how the Bahai form of fasting is somehow
 spiritually any deeper or more fulfilling.

Scott:
 The fast actually goes back further than Islam. Christianity has the example
 of Jesusfast for forty days in the wilderness and this is reflected in the
 practice of Lent. Fasting is part and parcel of Hinduism and Buddhism,
 animism even. So how is the spiritual aspect of the fast in Islam a new
 idea?

Gilberto:
I am actually totally okay with the idea of Islamic rituals having
precents in other faiths. I am not claiming that Islam is the new and
improved, new-fangled religion for the current time. I think Islam is
that Old Time Religion which is still appropriate for our times
because it has been faithfully transmitted and because and because it
hits on something basic in the human condition.

Although I might say that generally Christians (in my experience)
don't fast. And that Lent is something different different from what
Jesus is described as doing. The Catholic people I know have typically
given up things like coffee or chocolate for lent. Some might give up
wine (except for communion). I know one Catholic who gave up binge
drinking (not drinking) for Lent.

So in some sense Ramadan is more like some of the older or more
traditional forms of fasting than current Christian practice.

But again, the question remains, in what sense has the fasting in
Ramadan become an empty ritual which has been fulfilled in the Bab.
Are you saying that literally the Bab makes Muslims (ordinary sense)
better Muslims?

Peace

GIlberto


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Re: Past Revelations

2004-12-27 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 12/27/2004 2:57:58 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
But again, the question remains, in what sense has the fasting inRamadan become an empty ritual which has been fulfilled in the Bab.Are you saying that literally the Bab makes Muslims (ordinary sense)better Muslims?
The Fast of Ramadan is not an empty ritual. Never said it was.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Past Revelations

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:28:53 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 12/27/2004 2:57:58 PM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 But again, the question remains, in what sense has the fasting in
 Ramadan become an empty ritual which has been fulfilled in the Bab.
 Are you saying that literally the Bab makes Muslims (ordinary sense)
 better Muslims?
 The Fast of Ramadan is not an empty ritual. Never said it was.
  


So what did you have in mind when you said:

Just because the followers and clergy of a revelation allowed the
revelation to fall into ineffectiveness and empty ritual does not mean
that the Revelation is spent. It is uncovered from the dross of
empty ritual when the new Revelation is born. So the fulfillment of
the Quran is in the revelation of the Bab, so to speak.

?

Peace

Gilberto

-- 


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Re: Past Revelations

2004-12-27 Thread John Smith

I think that for a lot of people, if you say that their religion is finished and its force is spent, that would tend to contraadict and overwhelm the claim that you are praising those revelations.
Your view does not makes sense to me because the Qur'an praises Jesus even though it is (in most Muslims' view) corrupt. Please elaborate on this.
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Re: Past Revelations

2004-12-27 Thread John Smith



G:
But again, the question remains, in what sense has the fasting in Ramadan become an empty ritual which has been fulfilled in the Bab. Are you saying that literally the Bab makes Muslims (ordinary sense) better Muslims?
JS:
Yes, I think that the implication is that in some miraculous way ordinary Muslims will be better Muslimsby simply being in love with Baha'u'llah and following his laws: "Love me that I may love thee. If thou lovest me not, my Love can in no wise reach thee." (Hidden Words)
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Re: Past Revelations

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:55:04 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I think that for a lot of people, if you say that their religion is
 finished and its force is spent, that would tend to contraadict and
 overwhelm the claim that you are praising those revelations.

 Your view does not makes sense to me because the Qur'an praises Jesus even
 though it is (in most Muslims' view) corrupt.  Please elaborate on this.

Gilberto:
Be careful with pronouns.. Jesus is highly praised, yes. It's the
Bible which is described as corrupt. I'm not sure I would say that the
Quran praises Christianity. Many mainstream Christian doctrines and
practices are specifically held up for criticism. I would say the
Quran certainly praises Jesus and of course would respect the Gospel
(but then there is a question of where it can be found exactly).
Moreover the Quran also praises the behavior of individual Christians
but also criticizes the behavior of others.


My people are hydroponic

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Re: Past Revelations

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:05:11 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 But then by following his laws wouldn't that imply converting?
 
 
 Yes.  In my view, it does.  'Conversion', I believe, is the first paragraph
 of the Aqdas in one word.
 

So you aren't talking about the Bab or Bahaullah helping Muslims
become better Muslims. You are talking about Muslims, not being
Muslims anymore and becoming Bahais.

Peace

Gilbetrto



 
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Re: Past Revelations

2004-12-27 Thread John Smith



G:
So you aren't talking about the Bab or Bahaullah helping Muslimsbecome better Muslims. You are talking about Muslims, not beingMuslims anymore and becoming Bahais.J:
By Muslim I mean a follower of the 'eternal Faith of God', not the Religion of Prophet Muhammad.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com 

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Re: Past Revelations

2004-12-27 Thread Rich Ater





Gilberto,
 Not true. If I praise the grandeur of Rome it does not mean that I
think we should remain ruled by emperors or that if I say that Rome's
time has passed and modern democracy is an improvement that I have
ceased to admire Rome.
Rich

Gilberto Simpson wrote:

  On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 06:38:01 -, Brent Poirier
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  
The Baha'i Writings are filled with praise of the previous 
Revelations sent down by God.  Similarly, the Writings of all  of the Prophets praise the Revelations that preceded Them.

  
   
  
  
At the same time, a Revelation is sent for a specific 
season.  When that season is finished, the force of the 
Revelation is spent.

  
  
I think that for a lot of people, if you say that their religion is
finished and its force is spent, that would tend to contraadict and
overwhelm the claim that you are praising those revelations.

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: Past Revelations