[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: List confusion
Dear all Recently, I sent a message including photos of three baroqued Renaissance lutes, photographed by Mimmo Peruffo. I considered that the main interest was for the Baroque list, as the photos show the finger marks of Baroque players. However, these are renaissance lutes, so surely of interest to the Renaissance list. There are very few Renaissance tenor and bass lutes that have not been Baroqued. I therefore had to decide to send the message to both. Many renaissance lutists would also be in the audience of a good Baroque lute concert, and therefore most questions that relate to performance of the Baroque lute should interest them. The person who gets the most out of such concerts will surely be the person who understands most about performing such music. I have constantly found it difficult to decide who I should exclude from such a message. Anthony Le 17 déc. 07 à 13:56, Martin Eastwell a écrit : Dear All At the moment, the discussion "Re: RH on the bridge" is split across the main lute list and the baroque lute list. This happens all the time, and is very confusing for most of us! Would we not be better off with a single list? As so often happens, the topic we are discussing strays from pre Dowland to the 18th Century. When does Baroque begin anyway?! Medieval is easier-we all know that the Middle Ages stopped when lutenists gave up the plectrum! An alternative would be for the little bit of information on subscribing added to the end of each message, to also contain guidelines on posting to the correct list. Best wishes Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Oups, sorry Rob, it just came back to my mind, when Theo, said you couldn't trust the marks on a lute in a museum. I have sort of been trained to store apparently completely unrelated data in my mind for future association, at a later date. Theo's message just suddenly triggered this memory. I spotted yourself with the Buchenberg when I was searching for the Van Raalte Brownsea Island lutes. I saw that some of them had ended up in Edinburgh. Initially, I thought the Buchenberg was one of them and wrote to Professor Arnold Myers, Director of the museum, who told me this wasn't in fact the case. However, I don't think anyone expects you to get a good sound out of such a lute, unless you can control the stringing, etc. We listen just to have an idea of how they sound, not how you play. I would say that most of the recordings done on lutes in museums are interesting, but not ideal. I am thinking of the Hoppy recordings on the 1644 Railich (Denis Gaultier), and his recording for Reflexe of Weiss on the Widhalm. Also one of Anthony Bailes' recordings of late German Baroque on reflexe. I imagine they could control the stringing, and yet the sound is still problematic in the mid. However, Mimmo Peruffo told me the Frei pictured on the recent message was wonderful, but perhaps he completely restrung it. There are a few music museums where the instruments are kept in good playing condition such as Finchcocks (harpsichords and forte pianos) I know that there are also demonstrations, or rather were demonstrations at the Musée de la musique of some of the lutes. I attended a concert of gambists, there (Christophe Coin), where they played on original instruments, and when at the end they picked up their own gambas, it was a relief. Yet hearing the original instruments was still interesting. The Rauwolf, obviously does not have quite the same heavyish sound as the Buchenberg, having been completely restored, but there is some element in common, which must be the age of the wood, I imagine. On the English lute society pages,they mention a sound approaching that of the oboe. Sorry you don't remember anything about the finger marks, and in fact that you would rather forget, as I imagined it would be a great moment to get your hands on an such old lute, and guitars. I am obviously too romantic. i didn't think of the cold and perhaps the dust. Regards Anthony Le 17 déc. 07 à 13:59, Rob a écrit : Oh dear, I hoped no-one would spot that on the net! Thanks Anthony! Oh well... The piece is the most boring ever - I've no idea why I thought it suitable! The university asked me to record a CD of a small selection of their instruments. No repairs were made to the instruments, they were just strung up, and I only got a couple of hours to get used to the instruments. The sound recording was also very poor. The string spacing on the Buchenberg was very comfortable, but the strings were more or less just lying on the frets. I couldn't play the first course without getting that zing. Horrible. Don't buy the CD! It was about ten years ago, when I had hair! I've no idea about little-finger marks on the soundboard. I just remember being cold and getting a horrible sound. Never thought I'd see that again! Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 December 2007 12:40 To: T. Diehl-Peshkur; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge? Theo and Rob A thought came to me, that a playable lute, even in a museum does get played by modern lutists, who might leave their traces on the lute. I noticed that Rob played a number of instruments at the EDINBURGH UNIVERSITY COLLECTION OF HISTORIC MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS. Although, did you play them long enough to leave such a trace, Rob? There is a CD of Rob's recordings, mainly on guitare, but also Dowland on the Buchenberg. Here Rob is playing on the Matheus Buchenberg/ Rome/early 17th century Rob McKillop playing * Shoes Rare and Good in All - Lilt Ladie An Gordoun (from the Straloch MS, NLS Adv.MS.5.2.18 c 1627-29) [ Real video ] Click on http://tinyurl.com/yunqyg Web page details at http://tinyurl.com/2yw6tr The indications are that "The sound-board is stained with finger grease along the lower side of the rose and at the upper end of the upper side of the rose, indicating the right hand playing position most often used." Rob obviously had a close look at this, so would you say this was reasonably clear, Rob? I imagine you would have tried to put your hand, as close as possible to that original position? Those old lutes have quite a different tone from modern instruments, the age of the wood no doubt. Regards Anthony Le 17 déc. 07 à 12:35, T. Diehl-Peshkur a écrit : Hello Anthony et al, I am very interested in this topic that is presently being discussed, but it reminds me a lot of the
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: List confusion
Dear Martin and All, I must plead guilty to contributing to the confusion by starting the thread on the main Lute List, but I felt that the issues of playing near the bridge/thumb out/gut stringing were of revelance to both lists and there was a danger that it might lurk in the Baroque List unseen by anyone else. Martin E raises an interesting point - how many people are there who subscribe to the Baroque list and not the main Lute list? If the answer is very few, there could be an argument for amalgamation. Best to All, Martin (S) Martin Eastwell wrote: Dear All At the moment, the discussion "Re: RH on the bridge" is split across the main lute list and the baroque lute list. This happens all the time, and is very confusing for most of us! Would we not be better off with a single list? As so often happens, the topic we are discussing strays from pre Dowland to the 18th Century. When does Baroque begin anyway?! Medieval is easier-we all know that the Middle Ages stopped when lutenists gave up the plectrum! An alternative would be for the little bit of information on subscribing added to the end of each message, to also contain guidelines on posting to the correct list. Best wishes Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: List confusion
On Monday 17 December 2007 13:56, Martin Eastwell rattled on the keyboard: Hi, I asked Wayne to change the mail headers because that's the reason why this happens. A reply on an email should primarily be directed to the list where it originates instead of the person who sent the email. This can be done by substituting the mailing list email address in the reply-to header which now contains the person email address. This is also how many other mailing lists work. Taco > Dear All > > At the moment, the discussion "Re: RH on the bridge" is split across the > main lute list and the baroque lute list. This happens all the time, and is > very confusing for most of us! Would we not be better off with a single > list? > > > As so often happens, the topic we are discussing strays from pre Dowland to > the 18th Century. When does Baroque begin anyway?! Medieval is easier-we > all know that the Middle Ages stopped when lutenists gave up the plectrum! > > > An alternative would be for the little bit of information on subscribing > added to the end of each message, to also contain guidelines on posting to > the correct list. > > > Best wishes > > Martin > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Oh dear, I hoped no-one would spot that on the net! Thanks Anthony! Oh well... The piece is the most boring ever - I've no idea why I thought it suitable! The university asked me to record a CD of a small selection of their instruments. No repairs were made to the instruments, they were just strung up, and I only got a couple of hours to get used to the instruments. The sound recording was also very poor. The string spacing on the Buchenberg was very comfortable, but the strings were more or less just lying on the frets. I couldn't play the first course without getting that zing. Horrible. Don't buy the CD! It was about ten years ago, when I had hair! I've no idea about little-finger marks on the soundboard. I just remember being cold and getting a horrible sound. Never thought I'd see that again! Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 December 2007 12:40 To: T. Diehl-Peshkur; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge? Theo and Rob A thought came to me, that a playable lute, even in a museum does get played by modern lutists, who might leave their traces on the lute. I noticed that Rob played a number of instruments at the EDINBURGH UNIVERSITY COLLECTION OF HISTORIC MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS. Although, did you play them long enough to leave such a trace, Rob? There is a CD of Rob's recordings, mainly on guitare, but also Dowland on the Buchenberg. Here Rob is playing on the Matheus Buchenberg/ Rome/early 17th century Rob McKillop playing * Shoes Rare and Good in All - Lilt Ladie An Gordoun (from the Straloch MS, NLS Adv.MS.5.2.18 c 1627-29) [ Real video ] Click on http://tinyurl.com/yunqyg Web page details at http://tinyurl.com/2yw6tr The indications are that "The sound-board is stained with finger grease along the lower side of the rose and at the upper end of the upper side of the rose, indicating the right hand playing position most often used." Rob obviously had a close look at this, so would you say this was reasonably clear, Rob? I imagine you would have tried to put your hand, as close as possible to that original position? Those old lutes have quite a different tone from modern instruments, the age of the wood no doubt. Regards Anthony Le 17 déc. 07 à 12:35, T. Diehl-Peshkur a écrit : > Hello Anthony et al, > I am very interested in this topic that is presently being > discussed, but it > reminds me a lot > of the so-called =8Ccanals' on Mars that everyone insisted they > saw, even > though there was nothing there. > Looking at the pictures here coldly and without any prejudice one > way or > another, I see nothing of the > clarity in the points you mention. > > In fact all have vast areas of wear for various distances from the > bridge, > not particularized to just one small area. > The newly discovered lute you show has so many scrapings along the > soundboard from repairs and bridge > adjustments that I could never say from the pictures anything about > what is > going on there. > > It is highly laudable to discuss these issues, please don't get me > wrong. > But I think we are going too far in > assumptions. > > For me anyway, much more evidence comes from a more general > standpoint: > Playing nearer the bridge with the 11 course instruments: yes- > that's clear > in a general way by the pictorial evidence, > and I think all using gut will agree to that unequivocally in terms > of the > kind of sound one can produce. > However it only works when you don't need/require the ring finger. > Once the ring finger is needed for arpeggios or special situations, > the > pinky near the bridge placement > simply doesn't work. Even then, however, just moving a little bit > away from > the bridge is enough for a useful sound from the ring finger (for > me: 1-2 > cm). > And in later music there are enough examples where you have to- or > otherwise > stated, where the top players probably just did it anyway. > As devil's advocate: We also have no idea if these lutes could have > been > owned by rank amateurs, who played three or four ditties on them > constantly, > or had poor techniques. Not every old instrument is useful or > beautiful or > informative just because it is old. > I often suspect that the very best instruments, played by the top > players > disappeared first- played to shreds during their lifetime > of performances and travel across Europe. > > I think going further than these =8Ctypes' of general statements, > based solely > on pics (and not the actual thicknesses of the worn out areas > on the soundboard) is just too conjectural. > Just my 2 cents of course, and positively meant! > Cheers, > Theo > > > > From: Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:08:34 +0100 > To: Robert Barto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge? > > Robert > I looked at
[BAROQUE-LUTE] List confusion
Dear All At the moment, the discussion "Re: RH on the bridge" is split across the main lute list and the baroque lute list. This happens all the time, and is very confusing for most of us! Would we not be better off with a single list? As so often happens, the topic we are discussing strays from pre Dowland to the 18th Century. When does Baroque begin anyway?! Medieval is easier-we all know that the Middle Ages stopped when lutenists gave up the plectrum! An alternative would be for the little bit of information on subscribing added to the end of each message, to also contain guidelines on posting to the correct list. Best wishes Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Theo and Rob A thought came to me, that a playable lute, even in a museum does get played by modern lutists, who might leave their traces on the lute. I noticed that Rob played a number of instruments at the EDINBURGH UNIVERSITY COLLECTION OF HISTORIC MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS. Although, did you play them long enough to leave such a trace, Rob? There is a CD of Rob's recordings, mainly on guitare, but also Dowland on the Buchenberg. Here Rob is playing on the Matheus Buchenberg/ Rome/early 17th century Rob McKillop playing * Shoes Rare and Good in All - Lilt Ladie An Gordoun (from the Straloch MS, NLS Adv.MS.5.2.18 c 1627-29) [ Real video ] Click on http://tinyurl.com/yunqyg Web page details at http://tinyurl.com/2yw6tr The indications are that "The sound-board is stained with finger grease along the lower side of the rose and at the upper end of the upper side of the rose, indicating the right hand playing position most often used." Rob obviously had a close look at this, so would you say this was reasonably clear, Rob? I imagine you would have tried to put your hand, as close as possible to that original position? Those old lutes have quite a different tone from modern instruments, the age of the wood no doubt. Regards Anthony Le 17 déc. 07 à 12:35, T. Diehl-Peshkur a écrit : Hello Anthony et al, I am very interested in this topic that is presently being discussed, but it reminds me a lot of the so-called =8Ccanals' on Mars that everyone insisted they saw, even though there was nothing there. Looking at the pictures here coldly and without any prejudice one way or another, I see nothing of the clarity in the points you mention. In fact all have vast areas of wear for various distances from the bridge, not particularized to just one small area. The newly discovered lute you show has so many scrapings along the soundboard from repairs and bridge adjustments that I could never say from the pictures anything about what is going on there. It is highly laudable to discuss these issues, please don't get me wrong. But I think we are going too far in assumptions. For me anyway, much more evidence comes from a more general standpoint: Playing nearer the bridge with the 11 course instruments: yes- that's clear in a general way by the pictorial evidence, and I think all using gut will agree to that unequivocally in terms of the kind of sound one can produce. However it only works when you don't need/require the ring finger. Once the ring finger is needed for arpeggios or special situations, the pinky near the bridge placement simply doesn't work. Even then, however, just moving a little bit away from the bridge is enough for a useful sound from the ring finger (for me: 1-2 cm). And in later music there are enough examples where you have to- or otherwise stated, where the top players probably just did it anyway. As devil's advocate: We also have no idea if these lutes could have been owned by rank amateurs, who played three or four ditties on them constantly, or had poor techniques. Not every old instrument is useful or beautiful or informative just because it is old. I often suspect that the very best instruments, played by the top players disappeared first- played to shreds during their lifetime of performances and travel across Europe. I think going further than these =8Ctypes' of general statements, based solely on pics (and not the actual thicknesses of the worn out areas on the soundboard) is just too conjectural. Just my 2 cents of course, and positively meant! Cheers, Theo From: Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:08:34 +0100 To: Robert Barto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge? Robert I looked at the photos again, and noticed another variation apart from the one you mentionned which was as follows: "Only the first is really close to the bridge. (1 and 3 are relatively close): 1) The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683' http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster1.JPG 3) The third has no label http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster3.JPG 2 and 4 really not close to the bridge : 2) The second is a 'Magno dieffopruchar a venetia/1604 Matthias Fux/ R=C3=B6m. Kays. May- / Hoff-Lautenmacher in Wien 1685/ zuegericht' http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster2.JPG 4) The fourth is 'Jakob Wei=CE'/Lauthen-und Gei-/17 genmacher in Saltzburg'. 13 course lute with broken bass rider http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster4.JPG But no sign of on the bridge or behind as one sees on many portraits and instruments." RB First, I wonder whether this variation above is sufficient to consider it as relating to two different techniques: thumb completely out, thumb not completely out (but perhaps not in). other explanations seem possible. However, what surprises me, is that the last two (3 & 4) seem to have a very precise fixed finger position
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Theo I have only looked at the photos, obviously Mimmo Peruffo studied the lutes at close quarters, and even I think played the Frei, as he said it sounded beautiful. Thus, if he took the photo afterwards, perhaps you can just make-out Mimmo's finger position ... The fact these survived and have not been restored, could mean that they only had one owner, and less wear, but not that they had not been played at all. The wear marks seem fairly clear to me. The fact that there is one clear mark on two of them, and a continuous mark on the other, rather than two or three separate marks, could indicate they had only had one player. I have no idea whether there are any indications about the owners to be found at the museum. These lutes would have been quite costly at the time when they were baroqued. These were not Malers, but we do have the discussion by Mace about two baroqued Malers. Mace as you know says " There are diversities of Mens Names in Lutes; but the Chief Name we most esteem, is Laux Maller, ever written with Text Letters: Two of which Lutes I have seen (pittifull Old, Batter'd, Crack'd Things) valued at 100 l. a piece. Mr Gootiere, the Famous Lutenist in His Time, shew'd me One of Them, which the King paid 100 l. for. (...). I have often seen Lutes of three or four pounds price, far more Illustrious and Taking, to a common Eye". We see that the king, and one of Jacques Gaultier's students bought these lutes, not Gaultier, himself, who might have been showing the same scorn about their pitiful state as Mace is doing here. Nevertheless, the king and the wealthy student would have been taught by Gaultier, and others like him. If they could afford the most expensive lutes, they could afford the best teachers. One would suppose the traces, they left would be very similar to those that would have been made by Mr Gooti=E8re. That of course does not mean they were good players, I would agree with you there. Jacques did not just leave traces on lute bellies, by all accounts (See Janet Snowman, in an article, dated December 2006, entitled APOL LO Academy Pictures On-Line, Robert Spencer) http://tinyurl.com/239h99 http://www.ram.ac.uk/NR/rdonlyres/FDD0941B-F4BC-41B9-B6C0- BEDF2E6E3B4C/0/spencersheetfinal.pdf where it is not question of << the goodness of his hands >> or his delicate touch, but the quality of his dentition : << in 1643 a London surgeon's casebook describe `Mr Ashberrie (a lutanist) at night was bitten by Gottier, the French Luteniste in Covent Garden, had a piece of his cheek bitten out, an inch or more down to the lower jaw. I stiched it and dressed it'. A little over literal in the practice of the mordent ? Regards Anthony if what I see is a pattern of wear, Le 17 dec. 07 =E0 12:35, T. Diehl-Peshkur a ecrit : > Hello Anthony et al, > I am very interested in this topic that is presently being > discussed, but it > reminds me a lot > of the so-called =8Ccanals' on Mars that everyone insisted they > saw, even > though there was nothing there. > Looking at the pictures here coldly and without any prejudice one > way or > another, I see nothing of the > clarity in the points you mention. > > In fact all have vast areas of wear for various distances from the > bridge, > not particularized to just one small area. > The newly discovered lute you show has so many scrapings along the > soundboard from repairs and bridge > adjustments that I could never say from the pictures anything about > what is > going on there. > > It is highly laudable to discuss these issues, please don't get me > wrong. > But I think we are going too far in > assumptions. > > For me anyway, much more evidence comes from a more general > standpoint: > Playing nearer the bridge with the 11 course instruments: yes- > that's clear > in a general way by the pictorial evidence, > and I think all using gut will agree to that unequivocally in terms > of the > kind of sound one can produce. > However it only works when you don't need/require the ring finger. > Once the ring finger is needed for arpeggios or special situations, > the > pinky near the bridge placement > simply doesn't work. Even then, however, just moving a little bit > away from > the bridge is enough for a useful sound from the ring finger (for > me: 1-2 > cm). > And in later music there are enough examples where you have to- or > otherwise > stated, where the top players probably just did it anyway. > As devil's advocate: We also have no idea if these lutes could have > been > owned by rank amateurs, who played three or four ditties on them > constantly, > or had poor techniques. Not every old instrument is useful or > beautiful or > informative just because it is old. > I often suspect that the very best instruments, played by the top > players > disappeared first- played to shreds during their lifetime > of performances and travel across E
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Weiss's Suite # 26 (Bes major - Dresden)
Who can tell ? :-) However it does make it clear that borrowing from yourself, and copying/pasting (with or without transpositions) it seems were a part and parcel of the great composers- all points regarding the =8Carchitectural formality' of the suite form aside... Theo From: H L Pakker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:54:06 +0100 To: Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Weiss's Suite # 26 (Bes major - Dresden) Hello, Weiss's Suite # 26 (Bes major - Dresden) is a complation of several pieces taken from several suites from the London ms. What can we learn about this compilation? Were they considered as ''very nice', 'successful', or what? Best regards, Henk Pakker -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Weiss's Suite # 26 (Bes major - Dresden)
Hello, Weiss's Suite # 26 (Bes major - Dresden) is a complation of several pieces taken from several suites from the London ms. What can we learn about this compilation? Were they considered as ''very nice', 'successful', or what? Best regards, Henk Pakker -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Hello Anthony et al, I am very interested in this topic that is presently being discussed, but it reminds me a lot of the so-called =8Ccanals' on Mars that everyone insisted they saw, even though there was nothing there. Looking at the pictures here coldly and without any prejudice one way or another, I see nothing of the clarity in the points you mention. In fact all have vast areas of wear for various distances from the bridge, not particularized to just one small area. The newly discovered lute you show has so many scrapings along the soundboard from repairs and bridge adjustments that I could never say from the pictures anything about what is going on there. It is highly laudable to discuss these issues, please don't get me wrong. But I think we are going too far in assumptions. For me anyway, much more evidence comes from a more general standpoint: Playing nearer the bridge with the 11 course instruments: yes- that's clear in a general way by the pictorial evidence, and I think all using gut will agree to that unequivocally in terms of the kind of sound one can produce. However it only works when you don't need/require the ring finger. Once the ring finger is needed for arpeggios or special situations, the pinky near the bridge placement simply doesn't work. Even then, however, just moving a little bit away from the bridge is enough for a useful sound from the ring finger (for me: 1-2 cm). And in later music there are enough examples where you have to- or otherwise stated, where the top players probably just did it anyway. As devil's advocate: We also have no idea if these lutes could have been owned by rank amateurs, who played three or four ditties on them constantly, or had poor techniques. Not every old instrument is useful or beautiful or informative just because it is old. I often suspect that the very best instruments, played by the top players disappeared first- played to shreds during their lifetime of performances and travel across Europe. I think going further than these =8Ctypes' of general statements, based solely on pics (and not the actual thicknesses of the worn out areas on the soundboard) is just too conjectural. Just my 2 cents of course, and positively meant! Cheers, Theo From: Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:08:34 +0100 To: Robert Barto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge? Robert I looked at the photos again, and noticed another variation apart from the one you mentionned which was as follows: > "Only the first is really close to the bridge. (1 and 3 are > relatively close): > 1) The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683' > http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster1.JPG > 3) The third has no label > http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster3.JPG > > 2 and 4 really not close to the bridge : > > 2) The second is a 'Magno dieffopruchar a venetia/1604 Matthias Fux/ > R=C3=B6m. Kays. May- / Hoff-Lautenmacher in Wien 1685/ > zuegericht' > http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster2.JPG > > 4) The fourth is 'Jakob Wei=CE'/Lauthen-und Gei-/17 genmacher in > Saltzburg'. 13 course lute with broken bass rider > http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster4.JPG > > But no sign of on the bridge or behind as one sees on many > portraits and instruments." RB First, I wonder whether this variation above is sufficient to consider it as relating to two different techniques: thumb completely out, thumb not completely out (but perhaps not in). other explanations seem possible. However, what surprises me, is that the last two (3 & 4) seem to have a very precise fixed finger position: 3) The third has no label http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster3.JPG 4) The fourth is 'Jakob Wei=CE'/Lauthen-und Gei-/17 genmacher in Saltzburg'. 13 course lute with broken bass rider http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster4.JPG This would seem to imply that any sound variation would be obtained by swivelling the hand, but keeping the little finger firmly placed; while the first two show a longish patch showing a more variable little finger position: 1) The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683' http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster1.JPG 2) The second is a 'Magno dieffopruchar a venetia/1604 Matthias Fux/ R=C3=B6m. Kays. May- / Hoff-Lautenmacher in Wien 1685/ zuegericht' http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster2.JPG This could show that sound variation was obtained by a movement on the soundboard, the finger not fixed. However, this interpretation implies that the lute was played by only one person. Can we be sure about that? Might the lutes 1 & 2 have been played by more than one person, but the lutes 3 and 4 by only one? The fact that there is no break in the moveable position could indicate that it WAS the same player. If the two positions: close to the bridge (1 and 3), but not so close to the bridge (2 and 4), could perhaps be explained by a player adapting to string type
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Robert I looked at the photos again, and noticed another variation apart from the one you mentionned which was as follows: > "Only the first is really close to the bridge. (1 and 3 are > relatively close): > 1) The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683' > http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster1.JPG > 3) The third has no label > http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster3.JPG > > 2 and 4 really not close to the bridge : > > 2) The second is a 'Magno dieffopruchar a venetia/1604 Matthias Fux/ > R=C3=B6m. Kays. May- / Hoff-Lautenmacher in Wien 1685/ > zuegericht' > http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster2.JPG > > 4) The fourth is 'Jakob Wei=CE'/Lauthen-und Gei-/17 genmacher in > Saltzburg'. 13 course lute with broken bass rider > http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster4.JPG > > But no sign of on the bridge or behind as one sees on many > portraits and instruments." RB First, I wonder whether this variation above is sufficient to consider it as relating to two different techniques: thumb completely out, thumb not completely out (but perhaps not in). other explanations seem possible. However, what surprises me, is that the last two (3 & 4) seem to have a very precise fixed finger position: 3) The third has no label http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster3.JPG 4) The fourth is 'Jakob Wei=CE'/Lauthen-und Gei-/17 genmacher in Saltzburg'. 13 course lute with broken bass rider http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster4.JPG This would seem to imply that any sound variation would be obtained by swivelling the hand, but keeping the little finger firmly placed; while the first two show a longish patch showing a more variable little finger position: 1) The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683' http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster1.JPG 2) The second is a 'Magno dieffopruchar a venetia/1604 Matthias Fux/ R=C3=B6m. Kays. May- / Hoff-Lautenmacher in Wien 1685/ zuegericht' http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster2.JPG This could show that sound variation was obtained by a movement on the soundboard, the finger not fixed. However, this interpretation implies that the lute was played by only one person. Can we be sure about that? Might the lutes 1 & 2 have been played by more than one person, but the lutes 3 and 4 by only one? The fact that there is no break in the moveable position could indicate that it WAS the same player. If the two positions: close to the bridge (1 and 3), but not so close to the bridge (2 and 4), could perhaps be explained by a player adapting to string type or tension or because of hand size, or perhaps thumb out (1 & 3), not so far out (2 & 4); however, the fixed finger (3 & 4), moveable finger (1&2) difference, can't be given such an explanation, and must surely imply two different playing techniques. The problem is that the little finger swivel, or glide techniques do not correspond to the "close to the bridge less close to the bridge position". It would have been easier to fathom had there been a coincidence between the two. Then we would clearly have two globally different techniques. Anthony Le 16 dec. 07 =E0 21:55, Robert Barto a ecrit : > Anthony, > > Thank you very much for these pictures. > > What's actually interesting about them is how two are close to the > bridge > and two are not. Only the first is really close to the bridge. (1 > and 3 are > relatively close, 2 and 4 really not.) But no sign of on the bridge or > behind as one sees on many portraits and instruments. > > So what does this tell us? > > Robert > -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
En garde! www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Martin Shepherd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 December 2007 09:26 To: baroque lutenet Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge? The less gleeful look on M.Mouton's face presumably indicates that he was more reliable in the matter of cheques, but then he was not an écossais Martin Rob wrote: >Please be careful, Anthony. The photo of me grinning like an idiot does not >show me playing a la Mouton. I have now adopted, more or less, Mouton's >technique which is closer to the bridge than I am using in that photo. I say >more or less, because, of course, the position is not fixed, is quite fluid >and allied to the subtle dynamic and tonal nuances of the music. When that >photo was taken I had only seen the lute for a few minutes and hadn't really >played anything. I was grinning because Martin had just accepted a dud >cheque, the value of which he will discover tomorrow! > >Rob > >-Original Message- >From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >The example he chooses is Charles Mouton, so we can compare with the >rh position that Rob has also adopted; >Rob: http://tinyurl.com/2dlsa3 > >Charles: http://tinyurl.com/yvlvvq > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
The less gleeful look on M.Mouton's face presumably indicates that he was more reliable in the matter of cheques, but then he was not an écossais Martin Rob wrote: Please be careful, Anthony. The photo of me grinning like an idiot does not show me playing a la Mouton. I have now adopted, more or less, Mouton's technique which is closer to the bridge than I am using in that photo. I say more or less, because, of course, the position is not fixed, is quite fluid and allied to the subtle dynamic and tonal nuances of the music. When that photo was taken I had only seen the lute for a few minutes and hadn't really played anything. I was grinning because Martin had just accepted a dud cheque, the value of which he will discover tomorrow! Rob -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The example he chooses is Charles Mouton, so we can compare with the rh position that Rob has also adopted; Rob: http://tinyurl.com/2dlsa3 Charles: http://tinyurl.com/yvlvvq To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
