[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Re: de Visée
Thanks for the info Anthony, quite interesting. I do hope he returns to the theorbo someday... From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 19:02:10 +0100 To: Rob MacKillop [EMAIL PROTECTED], baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] de Visee Rob As far as I know, so unhappy with his playing was Pascal Monteilhet (or at least, not progressing enough ... I know the feeling), that he sold all his lutes and set off for a Pacific island (or similar). I understand that this was the second time he did something of the sort. An intellectual television magazine (oxymoron?) which is often associated with French Baroque music and evenents, likened his departure to that of Rimbaud or of Gaugin: fff Telerama - Robert de Visee - Monteilhet . Le francais Pascal Monteilhet a beaucoup oeuvre pour la renaissance du theorbe. Aujourd'hui comme Rimbaud ou Gauguin, cet explorateur-ne s'embarque loin de l'Europe, pour d'autres aventures, maritimes et exotiques. Mais il nous laisse un formidable temoignage de la noblesse de son instrument et de son repertoire. .. Les suites pour theorbe de Robert de Visee se situent dans le sillage hauturier de d'Anglebert et de Couperin... Le theorbe Un animal de haute cour. Et cet (ultime) recital? Une balise d'allegresse, un fanal d'espoir. Gilles Macassar - Telerama 15 mars 2006 (I removed the accents, I think). But perhaps he has come back. Does anyone know? Anthony Le 28 fevr. 08 =E0 17:46, Rob MacKillop a ecrit : Strange booklet notes: ''...like everyone else, I use strings which do not sound as they should. They produce a sound that is admittedly compelling and powerful, but to my ears too flashy, indeed vulgar, and which hinders the transmission of the discourse.'' So why do it? - might seem like the obvious question. I guess, like me, Pascal prefers gut, but is not satisfied with the current state of gut strings. I think string makers have cracked the manufacture of trebles and mid-range. Still not convinced about those basses. I hope Mimmo's new strings will change our minds. I look forward to trying them someday. Keep up the good work, Mimmo and Dan and whoever else is experimenting. I wouldn't go so far as to say Pascal's strings sound vulgar, and I wouldn't record if that were the case. And I certainly wouldn't rubbish my own sound in my own booklet notes. Ah, the French are different...eh, Anthony? I saw Pascal in Glasgow once, and he was brilliant. No vulgarity anywhere. Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Mercure
Hello all, That is a really nice performance, thanks for that link! By the way: there are still a large numer of CNRS lute editions available directly from CNRS in Paris. You can order online: http://www.cnrseditions.fr/catalogue/recherche.html Just type in the name of the composer. The Mercure is still available, as are a number of other volumes. Just got the Mercure from them about 2 weeks ago, at less than 50% the price of what some stores are selling it for (if they have it). Cheers, Theo From: Bernd Haegemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 20:46:15 +0100 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Manolo Laguillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Mercure Hola Manolo, I'm curious about that french lutenist from the XVII, Mercure. There is a beutiful sarabande in the MS Milleran, without name, and the same is included in the Balcarres MS. I know, the french CNRS published his work, but I don't have the book. There are at least two Mercures, one, often callen Mercure d'Orleans from the renaissance lute repertoire - you will find quite a lot pieces by him in the Schele Ms., of which you own a beautiful facsimile, I believe ;-) , and then the later, baroque Mercure. According to Mary Burwell's tutor he lived for a long time in England. I'm going to send you some pages from the CNRS introduction. A beautiful recording can be found on the website of Thomas Berghan http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/tom/ as http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/tom/sarabande_mercure.mp3 hasta luego B. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music
Thanks everyone for the responses so far! The info on wind instruments and the prevalence of +/- 392Hz etc. is clearbut I am just not convinced yet... For most string instruments, the usual method was to tune the highest note as high as comfortable, and go from there. Especially when used for solo work of course. We hear many stories about how wonderful the old strings must have been, etc. so I can only suppose that their gut trebles didn't break as easily (perhaps) as ours do. I can now use gut f' at 415Hz and 68cm for about 2 weeks before it breaks. If their strings were so much better, than likely this would be a longer period.Or, it could mean that they were using a higher pitch to begin with, since their strings were so much better? I think everyone using full gut would agree that the basses just need the extra pitch raising to 400 or 415 to sound really optimal. One must always trade off the sound of the chanterelle and the bass notes in my personal opnion.. Sure, my lute sounds great at 392 in full gut; but in trying to find out/experiment/fantasize about what was typical back then, I really wonder if the pitch wasn't higher than we imagine...despite all the wonderful recordings in low pitch 392. Are we merely accepting something because it has been done that way so often? From: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:03:08 -0800 To: baroque Lutelist baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music On Feb 13, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Edward Martin wrote: Generally, the lute in mid to later 17th century France was the d minor tuning. The top string was usually at f. For a length of 68 cm, generally, a gut treble can go to f at a=415. If you exceed 68 cm, the standard for a probably dropped a bit, as with my many years of experience, the treble will break prematurely. For example, if your lute is 72 cm mensur, the standard should be a bit lower, .e. a = 392. No lie. 392 seems to have been the standard pitch. at least in Paris, judging from the woodwind instruments that came from there in the later 17th century. You might want to give it a try even on a 68 cm lute and experiment with the lower tension. In spite of what you may have heard recently in this part of cyberspace a propos of theorbos, French musicians generally and lutenists in particular probably were less concerned with loudness than their Italian counterparts (contemporary accounts indicate they didn't play nearly as loudly), so in stringing there are aesthetic considerations at work other than the breaking point of the high string. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: I haven't got the guts anymore! (loaded)
Hello all, Indeed, even regarding gut strings, it all seems so complicated. I am in principle really happy with the Larson strings on my 11 course, but at 392 the basses of course work less well than at 415, although everything really stays in tune quite well (in my home) actually even better than the modern strings did. But I couldn't resist, and am now waiting for =8Clambs gut' strings from Damian Strings, all courses in full gut, without loading or even open winding on the lower courses..They cost a fortune, and I pray they will be as nice as I hear my lute in my imagination. In any case I will post any details after I get them on and settled in. By the way: if you are traveling with a lute strung in gut on an airplane or a cold car for several hours, I found that wrapping the lute in transparent kitchen wrap before putting it in the case really helps a lot in avoiding hours of tuning upon arrival. It seems to protect not just the strings, but also the lute from long exposure to heating and humidity changes. Theo From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:37:14 +0100 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: I haven't got the guts anymore! (loaded) Le 14 janv. 08 =E0 18:12, Rob a ecrit : Dear Anthony, I think you'll find the bass register below the 7th course more problematical than the treble. Not only the sound quality of the thick-gut fundamentals, gimped or otherwise, but also the intonation compared to the octave neighbours. Yes this is why I hope that the loaded strings will become available. They don't have that problem. Anthony I might well return to gut in time. This is still very much an experimental phase. Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Gallot
I think the confusion is also increased by the use of Jacques Gallot rather than Gallot le Vieux on Hopi's Gallot recording... From: Mathias R=F6sel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 27 Dec 2007 12:29 GMT To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED], T. Diehl-Peshkur [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Gallot and Jacques Gallot (possibly his nephew, also called le jeune), who Le jeune Gallot is Pierre, son of Alexandre Gallot, the latter being lutenist at the royal court in Poland. Le jeune is the one who published the printed edition of Pieces de luth, which, according to Liddell, contains pieces by his uncle Jacques. Mathias was the author of Pi=C3=A8ces de luth published after 1684 (see introduction to this, facsimile, published by Minkoff, Geneva, 1978). However, here at http://www.musicologie.org/Biographies/g/ gallot_jacques.html, there is no such distinction made, but you can see that the Leipzig texts are the only ones signed -vieux Gallot de Paris-. Gallot Jacques a Euro ! vers 1690 a Euro ! Paris, vers 1690. Luthiste et compositeur, fr=C3=A8re d'Alexandre Gallot =C3=A9galement musicien. On le conna=C3=AEt sous le noms de -vieux Gallot de Paris-. Il est un =C3=A9l=C3=A8ve d'Ennemond Gaultier. Il a publi=C3=A9 =C3! Paris des Pi=C3=A8ces de luth compos=C3=A9es sur differens modes* introduites par un bref trait=C3=A9 sur l'instrument. Les pi=C3=A8ces sont organis=C3=A9es par tonalit=C3=A9 et des menuets sont interpol=C3=A9s. Ses compositions comprennent des portraits musicaux : La Fontange, La Montespan etc. et des tombeaux (Turenne, Cond=C3=A9, Madame). Le manuscrit II 614, Musikbibliothek Leipzig, contient des pi=C3=A8ces sign=C3=A9es -vieux Gallot-. On trouve quelques pi=C3=A8ces sign=C3=A9es -Gallot- dans une s=C3=A9rie d'autres manuscrits : Biblioth=C3=A8que nationale de France ; Biblioth=C3=A8que municipale de Besan=C3=A7on ; Bodleian Library Oxford ; Carl Dolmetsch Library, Haslemere ; Benediktinerstift, G=C3=B6ttweig (Autriche) ; Benediktinerstift Kremsm=C31/4nster (Autriche) ; Nationalbibliothek, Wien (Autriche) ; Hudebn=C3=AD odd=C4=9Bnlun=C3=AD Universitn=C3=AD knihovny, Praha (Biblioth=C3=A8que de l'Universit=C3=A9, d=C3=A9partement de la musique) ; L=C3=A4roverksbiblioteket, Kalmar (Su=C3=A8de). * Pieces de Luth Composees sur differens Modes par J. G. Auec les folies d'Espagnes Enrichies de plusieurs beaux couplets dediees a Mgn. le Comte Destree Viceadmiral de France (Paris sans date) Regards Anthony Le 27 d=C3=A9c. 07 =C3! 10:54, T. Diehl-Peshkur a =C3=A9crit : For the experts amongst us: Does anyone know if the music of Jacques de Gallot is completely contained by the Leipzig MS, together with the Milleran and Barbe MSS? As far as I can see these sources should cover all or almost all of his works, but I am not sure if that is really the case... Thanks in advance, Theo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Doubling The Parts?
Or, might I add an even simpler suggestion: because it sounds interesting... The doubling of parts exists in all kind and and periods of musicmaking, often just for the coloration it provides From: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 08:07:36 -0800 To: baroque Lutelist baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Doubling The Parts? What I mean is: when performing that in an ensemble, what's the point of the lute doubling one of the other parts? Projection in a large performance space may have been an issue; it could have been a way of creating a super-lute. spaces. Haydn's piano trios often have a similar texture, with the violin and cello playing what the piano plays, or vice versa. It's still fashionable to speculate that Haydn was compensating for the instrument's weak treble, or bass, or whatever. A simpler explanation is that players or listeners liked that sort of thing. It certainly makes it easier to know when you're playing the right notes, which might be a consideration in a casual evening's music-making when everyone has eaten and imbibed well. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Hello Anthony et al, I am very interested in this topic that is presently being discussed, but it reminds me a lot of the so-called =8Ccanals' on Mars that everyone insisted they saw, even though there was nothing there. Looking at the pictures here coldly and without any prejudice one way or another, I see nothing of the clarity in the points you mention. In fact all have vast areas of wear for various distances from the bridge, not particularized to just one small area. The newly discovered lute you show has so many scrapings along the soundboard from repairs and bridge adjustments that I could never say from the pictures anything about what is going on there. It is highly laudable to discuss these issues, please don't get me wrong. But I think we are going too far in assumptions. For me anyway, much more evidence comes from a more general standpoint: Playing nearer the bridge with the 11 course instruments: yes- that's clear in a general way by the pictorial evidence, and I think all using gut will agree to that unequivocally in terms of the kind of sound one can produce. However it only works when you don't need/require the ring finger. Once the ring finger is needed for arpeggios or special situations, the pinky near the bridge placement simply doesn't work. Even then, however, just moving a little bit away from the bridge is enough for a useful sound from the ring finger (for me: 1-2 cm). And in later music there are enough examples where you have to- or otherwise stated, where the top players probably just did it anyway. As devil's advocate: We also have no idea if these lutes could have been owned by rank amateurs, who played three or four ditties on them constantly, or had poor techniques. Not every old instrument is useful or beautiful or informative just because it is old. I often suspect that the very best instruments, played by the top players disappeared first- played to shreds during their lifetime of performances and travel across Europe. I think going further than these =8Ctypes' of general statements, based solely on pics (and not the actual thicknesses of the worn out areas on the soundboard) is just too conjectural. Just my 2 cents of course, and positively meant! Cheers, Theo From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:08:34 +0100 To: Robert Barto [EMAIL PROTECTED], baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge? Robert I looked at the photos again, and noticed another variation apart from the one you mentionned which was as follows: Only the first is really close to the bridge. (1 and 3 are relatively close): 1) The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683' http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster1.JPG 3) The third has no label http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster3.JPG 2 and 4 really not close to the bridge : 2) The second is a 'Magno dieffopruchar a venetia/1604 Matthias Fux/ R=C3=B6m. Kays. May- / Hoff-Lautenmacher in Wien 1685/ zuegericht' http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster2.JPG 4) The fourth is 'Jakob Wei=CE'/Lauthen-und Gei-/17 genmacher in Saltzburg'. 13 course lute with broken bass rider http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster4.JPG But no sign of on the bridge or behind as one sees on many portraits and instruments. RB First, I wonder whether this variation above is sufficient to consider it as relating to two different techniques: thumb completely out, thumb not completely out (but perhaps not in). other explanations seem possible. However, what surprises me, is that the last two (3 4) seem to have a very precise fixed finger position: 3) The third has no label http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster3.JPG 4) The fourth is 'Jakob Wei=CE'/Lauthen-und Gei-/17 genmacher in Saltzburg'. 13 course lute with broken bass rider http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster4.JPG This would seem to imply that any sound variation would be obtained by swivelling the hand, but keeping the little finger firmly placed; while the first two show a longish patch showing a more variable little finger position: 1) The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683' http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster1.JPG 2) The second is a 'Magno dieffopruchar a venetia/1604 Matthias Fux/ R=C3=B6m. Kays. May- / Hoff-Lautenmacher in Wien 1685/ zuegericht' http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster2.JPG This could show that sound variation was obtained by a movement on the soundboard, the finger not fixed. However, this interpretation implies that the lute was played by only one person. Can we be sure about that? Might the lutes 1 2 have been played by more than one person, but the lutes 3 and 4 by only one? The fact that there is no break in the moveable position could indicate that it WAS the same player. If the two positions: close to the bridge (1 and 3), but not so close to the bridge (2 and 4), could perhaps be explained by a player adapting to string
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Weiss's Suite # 26 (Bes major - Dresden)
Who can tell ? :-) However it does make it clear that borrowing from yourself, and copying/pasting (with or without transpositions) it seems were a part and parcel of the great composers- all points regarding the =8Carchitectural formality' of the suite form aside... Theo From: H L Pakker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:54:06 +0100 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Weiss's Suite # 26 (Bes major - Dresden) Hello, Weiss's Suite # 26 (Bes major - Dresden) is a complation of several pieces taken from several suites from the London ms. What can we learn about this compilation? Were they considered as ''very nice', 'successful', or what? Best regards, Henk Pakker -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Stringing
8' + 4' is taken from harpsichord/organ terminology; I thought it was commonplace usage..8' simply means fundamental, 4' the octave (string or pipe, whatever.) It is used often in organological texts and books as well in the description of instrument pitches. Theo From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 08:06:05 -0600 To: T. Diehl-Peshkur [EMAIL PROTECTED], baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Stringing All baroque lutes, to my knowledge, were strung with octaves at the 6th course. I do not understand what you mean, by 8'+4. ed At 11:31 AM 12/16/2007 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote: Hello collective :-) Just a short question: is it clear form the 11 course instruments that the 6th course was always 8' + 4' strung? Would like to make mine unison, but am not sure of the original examples... Theo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1185 - Release Date: 12/15/2007 12:00 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Theorbo
Hi Rob, Interesting. This is all new info for me. You will be getting an instrument at 86 cm- so quite full sized. Can you describe any problems of dealing with that length and playing more soloist pieces? Isn't that quite difficult? Thanks, Theo From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 16:58:53 - To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Theorbo Hi Theo, Some confusion here. Assuming de Visee used the small theorbo, it would be strung in the old tuning but with both the first and second courses down an octave AND the whole thing moved up in pitch so that the first course is a D. This is what I meant when I said you could tune it in D, not D minor tuning. I apologise for not being explicit enough. But it is not certain that he used a small theorbo for his solo pieces, but probable. However, should you want to play Piccinini and Kapsberger as well - they would have been unlikely to play their music on a theorbo in D. But let's get things in perspective, if you want to play both Italian and French theorbo music to yourself, I wouldn't get too worked up about pitch. You say you are mainly concerned with late repertoire, so de Visee in old tuning, with the first two courses down an octave, based on D would be perfect, in my opinion. I have a theorbo arriving in January/February, but at 86 cms I will be tuning it in A, but definitely playing de Visee alongside Piccinini and Kapsberger. Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: T. Diehl-Peshkur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 December 2007 16:48 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Theorbo Hello Rob, Name's Theo :-) Thanks for the info. I assumed that the old renaissance lute tuning with a re-entrant chanterelle was still used by Visee et al, and only know Visee from recordings. Do you mean that a D minor tuning can be used on such a 14 course instrument? Thanks, Theo From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 16:33:44 - To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Theorbo Hi (what's your first name?) All the surviving solo repertoire (and I'm sure someone will correct me if am wrong) is for 6 courses on the fingerboard. Some players prefer seven for continuo reasons. At the string length you are thinking about, you could tune it in D, as in the small French theorbe de pieces. Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: T. Diehl-Peshkur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 December 2007 15:24 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Theorbo I had a request to all the performers/teachers among you here. Any help would be appreciated. I am on a waiting list for a theorbo to used only for solo music, almost exclusively late (like de Visee) although it might occasionally be used to play with very small ensembles at home, or a few early pieces at some time in the far future. The only points for me is to have it strung only in gut (which should not be difficult, I assume), and also on the small side (74/76 cm stoppable string length, probably 8+6.) My hands are not small, but used to 68/70 length, and I am concerned that anything too big will be a problem for me. The model will be Sellas, a multi-ribbed version. Final pitch to play at is not an issue, since I am on my own for that.. If there are any issues I should think about, or watch out for regarding string length or string grouping (like 7+7?), please do let me know, as I have the time now to discuss change details, and I only know baroque lute- so I am a total theorbo newbie. Thanks all! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan
Hello Sterling, Sorry it is, as written by the editors and born out of the texts of the Peters Edition. Please check D. A. Smith's as well as Crawford's forwards to the complete edition. D. A. Smith claimed ALL of London was for 11 course; however Crawford has (for good reason) not translated that part of Alton's German forward, because that is incorrect. A second scribe added a number of lower bass notes in a different handwriting to much of the existing 11 course music; this is even visible for us mere mortals in the distinct slant of the added 5's and 6's in the music. Only a number of these pieces have these lower courses written down in the original scribe's handwriting. Compare for instance in Weiss Quelle: London/Tabulatur I 43 verso measure 26, look at the way the =8C4' is written; idem 42 recto measure 41. Then look at the Courante, 43 recto, measures 69, 70, 71, 72 and note the extreme right sided slant- unlike all the other notes on both pages, which are almost straight or slanting leftwards. These are typical examples.. Long live the 11 course lute- which has a massive library of literature for it- even Weiss :-) ! Theo From: sterling price [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:03:29 -0800 (PST) To: T. Diehl-Peshkur [EMAIL PROTECTED], baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan - Original Message -Half of Weiss' output is for 11 course lute (the entire London MS, with only a few exceptions). Now I -know- that is not true. And a good deal of the London MS is for 13 course. Not sure of the exact numbers though. Sterling Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Weiss: use of 5th and 6th course
Hello, Today I had the time to look through part of the facsimile of Vol. 1 of the Peters Edition of Weiss (London Manuscript). My search was specifically for pieces by Weiss that use only 11 courses, not 13, since I am lucky to be picking up a new 11 course lute in October. I came across some simple things that set me wondering (by the way, I am a harpsichordist by training, not really a lutenist- yet, so if my thinking is skewed, just say so.) I got puzzled by the Sonata 12 in A major (starting on page 51v) where everything is clearly for 11 course lute, going down only to the 11th course with a (4) below staff...Except for ONE note in ONE movement, the Menuet on page 54r, measure 15 which uses one single note on course 12 (5) for B. I find this utterly strange, but maybe I am missing something here. Why is this strange to me? Well, if we assume the one note on the 12th course was on a 13 course lute, then why did Weiss avoid using the low A of the 13th course for a piece written in A Major? It seems rather unnatural, even peculiar to me. Indeed, it is not in keeping with they way he uses low notes in other pieces. In addition, the other Sonata in A Major No. 16, within volume 1 of the London Manuscript on the other hand makes full use of the 13th course A everywhere... In my mind, only four reasons are possible for this =8Clone note' as far as I can judge: -Was this Sonata meant for a 12 course lute, so there was no low A available, just a B which was used just once? -is this perhaps an example of one of his first pieces written for the 13 course lute and he (or his pupil ?) were getting used to it? -A mistake or addition? -The piece originally belonged to another suite and was copied here inadvertently without regard to the =8C13 course nature' of the other pieces in (Volume 1 anyway) of the London manuscript? (The ms is not chronological as Time Crawford and others have already clearly noted, so could this be an earlier piece to begin with?) If any of the experts who inhabit this list could give me any ideas or comments about this, I would be really keen to hear from you, as I am really intrigued by it. Thanks in advance, Theo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
