[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bach's bass lines
A 78cm 10c bass lute in D (presumably Renaissance tuning?) - wow - that sounds like fun. Wish I had one. Wish I had a gallichon in A, 95cms. Wish I had an archlute. I do have an 11c - not designed for powerful continuo playing - a baroque guitar - not suitable for Bach's bass lines - and a theorbo arriving soon. I'll just have to fumble my way through somehow, playing what I can. Martyn has very kindly offered to loan me his mega-large gallichon in A, which intend to take him up on. It will probably lead to more debt, in that I will doubtless want to buy one. It never ends... Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bach's bass lines
Rob wrote: a moot one. Bach did not write his continuo basses for a member of the lute family. <<< Yes, of course, David. That is understood. I was just speculating what one could contribute to a reading of the Art of Music and A Musical Offering, neither of which require continuo support. I would like to play a single line in an ensemble performance, but found it hard to imagine what one would do in such a scenario on a theorbo. You are right, that was your question. I'm all exited about the Musicall Offering as I am going to play (part of it?) later this year. For the Sonata I will bring the archlute. Good continuo instrument for the bass lines Bach wrote, and, perhaps the best reason for me, I know my way around on the instrument. I don't know if we're going to do any of the canons, but if we do I will use the same instrument for convenience sake, although I have a 78cm 10-course bass lute in d' that also has the speed, the range and the chromatics in the bass. And more punch in single-line bass playing than the archlute. I will not bring my theorbo (in A), as the bass-lines go to high, and use chromatics in the lower register. No gallichon here either, but I am tempted to give the large one in A a try. What about the d'-minor theorbo minus the first string, that Benjamin Narvey wrote about in the LSA Quarterly? Would that cover your needs? I'm also sorely tempted by such a continuo lute for Bach c.s. So many lutes to choose from, never enough in one house ... David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bach's bass lines
> > >>>Apart from the fact that it is fun to speculate one these matters, and > good > for us continuo pluckers to find practical answers, perhaps the question > is > a moot one. Bach did not write his continuo basses for a member of the > lute > family. <<< Yes, of course, David. That is understood. I was just speculating what one could contribute to a reading of the Art of Music and A Musical Offering, neither of which require continuo support. I would like to play a single line in an ensemble performance, but found it hard to imagine what one would do in such a scenario on a theorbo. Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bach's bass lines
Dale, I made both my instruments: the smaller in D based on the Stautinger of 1773 and the large single strung continuo one in A on an instrument by Edlinger in Prague. I'm not making for others any more but concentrating on research, playing and directing. David Van Edwards makes good instruments and offers a mandora after Wenger. I also know Martin Bowers has just made one. You'll find their contact details on the Lute Society website Martyn Dale Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Martyn, I want one! Who built yours? I've been circling this idea that a gallichon is THE great, versatile continuo instrument for 18th century vocal and instrumental music. Any savvy rhythm guitarist could step into accompaniment nirvana once (s)he adapted to the pitch variance. Dale - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "Rob MacKillop" ; "Baroque-Lute" Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 12:05 PM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bach's bass lines > Rob, > > I'd be happy to lend you my large single strung gallichon in A for a few > months if you could pick it up and arrange insurance etc. > > regards, > > Martyn > > Rob MacKillop wrote: > I've just been thinking about Bach's bass lines (not the > lute/violin/cello > suites) and the impossibility of playing them as written on either a > baroque > lute (either swan or bass rider), an Italian theorbo or a German Continuo > theorbo - only the Gallichon seems capable, and even then a large c.90 > plus > gallichon in A would suffice. I've been listening to a lot of part music > these last couple of weeks, from Renaissance recorder consorts (in a > beautiful meantone temperament) to A Musical Offering and The Art of Fugue > on viols - and thought how wonderful it would be just shaping a single > line > in a consort: something I haven't done for a long time, and even then not > very often. I'm sure it would help my line phrasing in solo lute pieces. > > So...when my harpsichord friend asked me if I'd like to join her small > ensemble (harpsichord, violin, viola) with my new (Italian) theorbo > (arriving in a couple of weeks time) to explore A Musical Offering and > suchlike, I said 'Yes!'. But now I'm not sure what contribution one could > make on such an instrument in such a setting with such music. Doubling the > bass line would be odd as I'd have to leap octaves all over the place, the > viola is taking care of the tenor line, the violin the soprano line. The > harpsichord could play bass and alto/second treble line. There's nothing > left to play! We could look at those pieces with more than four voice > parts, > but somehow it is all beginning to lack integrity. On the other hand, it's > just friends getting together - not a serious recording project. But I > just > can't 'hear' where the theorbo would fit in. Can't afford a gallichon as > well... > > What to do? Ideas? > > Rob > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > - > Rise to the challenge for Sport Relief with Yahoo! for Good > -- > - Rise to the challenge for Sport Relief with Yahoo! for Good --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bach's bass lines
Sterling, Still some debate here. The very early (say late 17th/early 18th C) gallichon (ie tuned in A string length in 90s) does seem to have been differentiated from the mandora (in D string length in 60s/70s) at that time. But towards the mid 18th C as the smaller instrument became more popular (esp amongst amateurs possibly as a result of the complexities of the 13 course Dm lute) the instrument in D also came to be called the gallichon and, indeed, some sources use the two words at different places in the MS. I speculated way back in '79 that size or the peghead style (ie bent back lute style or viol style) might have been used to distinguish the two but this is only based on the fact that some of the early large A gallichons had viol type pegheads. We're little further on from this A bit like the 'chitarrone' and the 'tiorba' the names might have been interchangeable by the 1750s. MH sterling price <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I had a chance to play a mandora\gallichon for the first time last summer at the lute making workshop with David Van Edwards. Of course, I also had a hand in making it too:) It was fun to play and Martyn was kind enough to send over some mandora music for us to try out on the instrument. Not sure-is there a difference between a mandora and gallichon? Are gallichons usually bigger than mandoras? Sterling Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bach's bass lines Despite what the Barbarous Barber might say, Martyn is a very talented man - he made his own gallichon, and is also a leading scholar in the world of the gallichon, and although I've never heard him play, I'm told he is a fine performer too. Maybe he would make you one, Dale? If not, I'm sure most luthiers would like to try. The questions are: what pitch, string length, single or double courses, and how many courses? It does seem to have been overlooked my most of us as a very useful continuo instrument. High Baroque bass lines do tend to get very chromatic, and the gallichon does seem to be the only instrument of the lute family which could play them. Rob On 21/02/2008, Dale Young wrote: > > Martyn, > I want one! Who built yours? Dale > -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs - Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Inbox. --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bach's bass lines
Yes, my view is indeed that the gallichon/mandora (both the A and the D/E size) always used overwound strings and were perhaps even developed especially to make use of these, then newly invented, strings. I'm afraid tho' that this is pure speculation since I've no evidence for it other than a low A, (ie the A below the bass line) for the early Gallichon is very low even for an instrument of string length in the 90s when compared to other continuo lutes. Note that I'm talking about the very large continuo instrument here (ie in A tuning). This is probably the instrument advocated by Kuhnau for leading the (bowed) basses and for which there are florid bass lines for many sacred cantatas by Tellemann. There is evidence that the smaller instruments (ie string lengths from mid 60s [in E] to mid 70s [in D] were only ever used for solo or ensemble work playing from tablature (there are many for solo and much chamber music - see Lynda Sayces article for a good listing - much of the solo repertoire is, frankly, not very good) and that the large instruments were professional continuo instruments only. I'm developing a paper around this and other matters. There is one problem however, there is no evidence for these instruments use outside the German speaking lands or Bohemia and Moravia or Austria proper. MH Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Mimmo sent me an interesting idea. He agreed that I could forward it to you guys. I think Martyn holds a similar position? Rob Silk bass strings like the 19th c guitars Rob. My point of wiwe of course This is why I think that the Gallicone was so suitable on bass line and powerful. My idea is that the guitar copyed it and added the 6th bass. There are no any document that justify this point. I just consider that this instrument is of the same proportion of a classical guitar of the Torres- time. And so: gallicone in D: 70-73 cms Guitar in E: 65 cms more or less All is so well relate. different than d minor lutes, tined a third higher F. In practise they, on gallicone,. employed the close wound silk strings, no the open ones. And the 4th was close wound, this time. You immage a sound powerfull like our guitars with basses with less sustain due to a silk silk. MImmo Ciao Mimmo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Rise to the challenge for Sport Relief with Yahoo! for Good --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bach's bass lines
Mimmo sent me an interesting idea. He agreed that I could forward it to you guys. I think Martyn holds a similar position? Rob Silk bass strings like the 19th c guitars Rob. My point of wiwe of course This is why I think that the Gallicone was so suitable on bass line and powerful. My idea is that the guitar copyed it and added the 6th bass. There are no any document that justify this point. I just consider that this instrument is of the same proportion of a classical guitar of the Torres- time. And so: gallicone in D: 70-73 cms Guitar in E: 65 cms more or less All is so well relate. different than d minor lutes, tined a third higher F. In practise they, on gallicone,. employed the close wound silk strings, no the open ones. And the 4th was close wound, this time. You immage a sound powerfull like our guitars with basses with less sustain due to a silk silk. MImmo Ciao Mimmo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bach's bass lines
Rob wrote: I've just been thinking about Bach's bass lines (not the lute/violin/cello suites) and the impossibility of playing them as written on either a baroque lute (either swan or bass rider), an Italian theorbo or a German Continuo theorbo - only the Gallichon seems capable, and even then a large c.90 plus gallichon in A would suffice. Apart from the fact that it is fun to speculate one these matters, and good for us continuo pluckers to find practical answers, perhaps the question is a moot one. Bach did not write his continuo basses for a member of the lute family. So I think it's up to us to adjust ourselves, or our lutes, to Bach whenever we play his music. My usual Bach continuo lute is an archlute in g'. Seven strings on the fingerboard, 8 = E, 9 = E-flat. It works for me. David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bach's bass lines
I had a chance to play a mandora\gallichon for the first time last summer at the lute making workshop with David Van Edwards. Of course, I also had a hand in making it too:) It was fun to play and Martyn was kind enough to send over some mandora music for us to try out on the instrument. Not sure-is there a difference between a mandora and gallichon? Are gallichons usually bigger than mandoras? Sterling Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bach's bass lines Despite what the Barbarous Barber might say, Martyn is a very talented man - he made his own gallichon, and is also a leading scholar in the world of the gallichon, and although I've never heard him play, I'm told he is a fine performer too. Maybe he would make you one, Dale? If not, I'm sure most luthiers would like to try. The questions are: what pitch, string length, single or double courses, and how many courses? It does seem to have been overlooked my most of us as a very useful continuo instrument. High Baroque bass lines do tend to get very chromatic, and the gallichon does seem to be the only instrument of the lute family which could play them. Rob On 21/02/2008, Dale Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Martyn, > I want one! Who built yours?Dale > -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bach's bass lines
Despite what the Barbarous Barber might say, Martyn is a very talented man - he made his own gallichon, and is also a leading scholar in the world of the gallichon, and although I've never heard him play, I'm told he is a fine performer too. Maybe he would make you one, Dale? If not, I'm sure most luthiers would like to try. The questions are: what pitch, string length, single or double courses, and how many courses? It does seem to have been overlooked my most of us as a very useful continuo instrument. High Baroque bass lines do tend to get very chromatic, and the gallichon does seem to be the only instrument of the lute family which could play them. Rob On 21/02/2008, Dale Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Martyn, > I want one! Who built yours? Dale > -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bach's bass lines
Martyn, I want one! Who built yours? I've been circling this idea that a gallichon is THE great, versatile continuo instrument for 18th century vocal and instrumental music. Any savvy rhythm guitarist could step into accompaniment nirvana once (s)he adapted to the pitch variance. Dale - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Rob MacKillop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Baroque-Lute" Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 12:05 PM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bach's bass lines Rob, I'd be happy to lend you my large single strung gallichon in A for a few months if you could pick it up and arrange insurance etc. regards, Martyn Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I've just been thinking about Bach's bass lines (not the lute/violin/cello suites) and the impossibility of playing them as written on either a baroque lute (either swan or bass rider), an Italian theorbo or a German Continuo theorbo - only the Gallichon seems capable, and even then a large c.90 plus gallichon in A would suffice. I've been listening to a lot of part music these last couple of weeks, from Renaissance recorder consorts (in a beautiful meantone temperament) to A Musical Offering and The Art of Fugue on viols - and thought how wonderful it would be just shaping a single line in a consort: something I haven't done for a long time, and even then not very often. I'm sure it would help my line phrasing in solo lute pieces. So...when my harpsichord friend asked me if I'd like to join her small ensemble (harpsichord, violin, viola) with my new (Italian) theorbo (arriving in a couple of weeks time) to explore A Musical Offering and suchlike, I said 'Yes!'. But now I'm not sure what contribution one could make on such an instrument in such a setting with such music. Doubling the bass line would be odd as I'd have to leap octaves all over the place, the viola is taking care of the tenor line, the violin the soprano line. The harpsichord could play bass and alto/second treble line. There's nothing left to play! We could look at those pieces with more than four voice parts, but somehow it is all beginning to lack integrity. On the other hand, it's just friends getting together - not a serious recording project. But I just can't 'hear' where the theorbo would fit in. Can't afford a gallichon as well... What to do? Ideas? Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Rise to the challenge for Sport Relief with Yahoo! for Good --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bach's bass lines
There's a thought. I'll write to you privately, Martyn. Rob On 21/02/2008, Martyn Hodgson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Rob, > > I'd be happy to lend you my large single strung gallichon in A for a few > months if you could pick it up and arrange insurance etc. > > regards, > > Martyn > -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bach's bass lines
Rob, I'd be happy to lend you my large single strung gallichon in A for a few months if you could pick it up and arrange insurance etc. regards, Martyn Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I've just been thinking about Bach's bass lines (not the lute/violin/cello suites) and the impossibility of playing them as written on either a baroque lute (either swan or bass rider), an Italian theorbo or a German Continuo theorbo - only the Gallichon seems capable, and even then a large c.90 plus gallichon in A would suffice. I've been listening to a lot of part music these last couple of weeks, from Renaissance recorder consorts (in a beautiful meantone temperament) to A Musical Offering and The Art of Fugue on viols - and thought how wonderful it would be just shaping a single line in a consort: something I haven't done for a long time, and even then not very often. I'm sure it would help my line phrasing in solo lute pieces. So...when my harpsichord friend asked me if I'd like to join her small ensemble (harpsichord, violin, viola) with my new (Italian) theorbo (arriving in a couple of weeks time) to explore A Musical Offering and suchlike, I said 'Yes!'. But now I'm not sure what contribution one could make on such an instrument in such a setting with such music. Doubling the bass line would be odd as I'd have to leap octaves all over the place, the viola is taking care of the tenor line, the violin the soprano line. The harpsichord could play bass and alto/second treble line. There's nothing left to play! We could look at those pieces with more than four voice parts, but somehow it is all beginning to lack integrity. On the other hand, it's just friends getting together - not a serious recording project. But I just can't 'hear' where the theorbo would fit in. Can't afford a gallichon as well... What to do? Ideas? Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Rise to the challenge for Sport Relief with Yahoo! for Good --
