[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Odp: Re: another portrait of S.L. Weiss?
A belated "thank you" to all those who replied to the thread on Weiss portraits!! Bernhard Von: Markus Lutz An: Grzegorz Joachimiak Cc: Bernhard Hofstoetter ; BAROQUE-LUTE Gesendet: 9:54 Montag, 11.Juli 2011 Betreff: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Odp: Re: another portrait of S.L. Weiss? Dear Grzegorz, it might be possible, that there are other portraits/engravings of Weiss, but we don't know. Hoffmann wrote about the engraving of Weiss, that was published as frontispiz in the "Bibliothek ..." and he writes about an engraving by Folin on a portrait of Denner. As the engraving by Folin/Denner is included in the "Bibliothek" these seem to be the same. But: It is true, that we cannot be sure, if there is another engraving, that shows another cut-off of the engraving. Possible, but a little bit of fiction also, as we don't know at the moment any engraving of Weiss that is different from the Bibliothek-engraving. And in my eyes Hoffmann doesn't seem to be a good witness for this. Other documents that speak of another portrait of Weiss I don't know. Another thing is, that we have a picture of the young Johann Sigismund Weiss in "/Le portrait du vrai mA(c)rite dans la personne serenissime de Monseigneur L'Electeur Palatin" by /Giorgio Maria/Rapparini/. And I also found in Gerber, that there was once a portrait in pastel of Adolf Faustinus Weiss, the son of S.L.Weiss, in the library of Hiller. Best regards Markus Am 11.07.2011 01:05, schrieb Grzegorz Joachimiak: > Dear Bernhard and Markus, > > I would like to add that I searched also others engraving portraits of Weiss by Folino. I think that very interesting things are so-called "independent" engraving (not included in "Neue Bibliothek der schAP:nen Wissenschaften ...", Vol. 1, 1765). These informations wrote in Singer's catalogue (H. W. Singer, Allgemeiner Bildniskatalog, Leipzig 1934, no. 95597). One copy was/is (?) in Vienna National Library, two copies were/are in Dresden, one copy was in Breslau/Wroclaw-Stadtbibliothek Breslau > (now in Wroclaw University Library) and one (no mentioned by Singer) is in Paris National Library. > > Probably an engraving from Stadtbibliothek Breslau is actually in Ossolinski National Institute, Department of Prints (Graphic). Look at [1]http://www2.oss.wroc.pl/index.php/english/ (there are only my presumption based on the same possessor's name who had collection of engravings from Stadtbibliothek Breslau. Engraving preserved in "Ossolineum" contains in paper no provenance sign, so I can not be sure). These engravings were obtained and than sold after 2nd World War by Mr. Zdzislaw > Szczyglowski from Raciborz (germ. Ratibor). Department of Prints (Graphic) in Wroclaw University Library also bought graphics in auction from Mr. Szczyglowski from Raciborz so I thought that probably there was the same person who sold in auction "independent" engraving with Weiss's portrait to Ossolineum. Actually in Wroclaw University Library we could find only index card connected of engraving with Weiss's portrait from Stadtbibliothek Breslau. I wrote short article about these things (cf. > semi-annual Polish magazine about baroque history, literature, art: "Barok" 17 (2010) no. 2, pp. 97-105: [2]http://www.neriton.apnet.pl/product_info.php?cPath=47&products_id=64 3 ). > > In Ossolinski National Institute I found others engraving by Folino. In Warsaw Gallery called "Na Tlumackiem" existed among others things two portraits of musicians by Denner: J. A. Hasse and G. F. Haendel. Unfortunately this gallery actually is not exist and we do not know where is this collection now (A. Ryszkiewicz, Kolekcjonerzy i milosnicy, Warszawa 1981). By Folino in Ossolinski National Institute, Department of Prints in Wroclaw (Ossolineum) I found also similar manner of Folino's > engraving technique like portrait of Weiss: e.g. portrait of Stanislaw August with Ciolek coat of arms, bust of Adam Naruszewicz and Maciej Kazimierz Sarbiewski (follow by medallion from 1770). > > Best wishes > > Grzegorz > > > > Dnia 10-07-2011 o godz. 22:04 Markus Lutz napisaAA'(a): >> Dear Bernhard, >> no there isn't any further portrait of Weiss, only the picture by Denner >> and the engraving of this portrait. >> It's true, that Hoffmann writes about three, but the engraving in the >> "Neue Bibliothek der schAP:nen Wissenschaften ...", Vol. 1, 1765, is the >> engraving by Folin! So he is wrong. >> >> On the following site you will find a digital copy of the complete volume: >> [3]http://scout.ub.uni-potsdam.de/fea/digbib/view?did=c1:209&p=1 >> But the quality of the copy, especially of the engraving is very poor. >> >> Also on [4]http://www.tabulatura.com you will find a better copy of it.
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Odp: Re: another portrait of S.L. Weiss?
If my memory isn't playing me false and the instrument is a single neck
it might indeed rule out Weiss since, as you suggest, there's no record
of him being associated with the gallichon/mandora. It'll take me time
to dig out the pic which is buried somewhere in what passes for my
filing 'system' - but I will try. As I recall, the representation I'm
thinking of is quite small so details like pegs were not shown
Martyn
--- On Mon, 11/7/11, Rob MacKillop wrote:
From: Rob MacKillop
Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Odp: Re: another portrait of S.L.
Weiss?
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "BAROQUE-LUTE"
Date: Monday, 11 July, 2011, 9:56
Interesting point, Martyn. I don't have the picture to hand. How many
strings or tuning pegs are shown? I still think the four-string
gallichon of circa 90cms length would make a great baroque bass
instrument. It's not an instrument I've ever seen associated with
Weiss, but that means little.
Rob
On 11 July 2011 09:52, Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
Good point Rob, but, if we're thinking of one of the pictures, I
recall it seems to show a large lute with a single neck. Whilst this
could, of course, be the engraver's own fancy it might suggest the
performer is playing a gallichon (large continuo
type)..
Martyn
--- On Mon, 11/7/11, Rob MacKillop <[2]robmackil...@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Rob MacKillop <[3]robmackil...@gmail.com>
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Odp: Re: another portrait of S.L. Weiss?
To: [4]mar...@gmlutz.de
Cc: "BAROQUE-LUTE" <[5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Monday, 11 July, 2011, 9:33
I am well out of my depth here, so apologies, but are there not also
a
couple of paintings or engravings which might show Weiss at work?
One
is an opera setting, with a possible Weiss in the orchestral pit?
The
other is a small ensemble gathering, with a possible Weiss playing a
long German theorbo (i.e. not a theorbo-lute)? Not exactly
'portraits',
but worth mentioning, maybe?
Rob MacKillop
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Odp: Re: another portrait of S.L. Weiss?
Interesting point, Martyn. I don't have the picture to hand. How many strings or tuning pegs are shown? I still think the four-string gallichon of circa 90cms length would make a great baroque bass instrument. It's not an instrument I've ever seen associated with Weiss, but that means little. Rob On 11 July 2011 09:52, Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: Good point Rob, but, if we're thinking of one of the pictures, I recall it seems to show a large lute with a single neck. Whilst this could, of course, be the engraver's own fancy it might suggest the performer is playing a gallichon (large continuo type).. Martyn --- On Mon, 11/7/11, Rob MacKillop <[2]robmackil...@gmail.com> wrote: From: Rob MacKillop <[3]robmackil...@gmail.com> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Odp: Re: another portrait of S.L. Weiss? To: [4]mar...@gmlutz.de Cc: "BAROQUE-LUTE" <[5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Monday, 11 July, 2011, 9:33 I am well out of my depth here, so apologies, but are there not also a couple of paintings or engravings which might show Weiss at work? One is an opera setting, with a possible Weiss in the orchestral pit? The other is a small ensemble gathering, with a possible Weiss playing a long German theorbo (i.e. not a theorbo-lute)? Not exactly 'portraits', but worth mentioning, maybe? Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 3. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 4. mailto:mar...@gmlutz.de 5. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Odp: Re: another portrait of S.L. Weiss?
Good point Rob, but, if we're thinking of one of the pictures, I recall it seems to show a large lute with a single neck. Whilst this could, of course, be the engraver's own fancy it might suggest the performer is playing a gallichon (large continuo type).. Martyn --- On Mon, 11/7/11, Rob MacKillop wrote: From: Rob MacKillop Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Odp: Re: another portrait of S.L. Weiss? To: mar...@gmlutz.de Cc: "BAROQUE-LUTE" Date: Monday, 11 July, 2011, 9:33 I am well out of my depth here, so apologies, but are there not also a couple of paintings or engravings which might show Weiss at work? One is an opera setting, with a possible Weiss in the orchestral pit? The other is a small ensemble gathering, with a possible Weiss playing a long German theorbo (i.e. not a theorbo-lute)? Not exactly 'portraits', but worth mentioning, maybe? Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Odp: Re: another portrait of S.L. Weiss?
Dear Grzegorz, it might be possible, that there are other portraits/engravings of Weiss, but we don't know. Hoffmann wrote about the engraving of Weiss, that was published as frontispiz in the "Bibliothek ..." and he writes about an engraving by Folin on a portrait of Denner. As the engraving by Folin/Denner is included in the "Bibliothek" these seem to be the same. But: It is true, that we cannot be sure, if there is another engraving, that shows another cut-off of the engraving. Possible, but a little bit of fiction also, as we don't know at the moment any engraving of Weiss that is different from the Bibliothek-engraving. And in my eyes Hoffmann doesn't seem to be a good witness for this. Other documents that speak of another portrait of Weiss I don't know. Another thing is, that we have a picture of the young Johann Sigismund Weiss in "/Le portrait du vrai mérite dans la personne serenissime de Monseigneur L'Electeur Palatin" by /Giorgio Maria/Rapparini/. And I also found in Gerber, that there was once a portrait in pastel of Adolf Faustinus Weiss, the son of S.L.Weiss, in the library of Hiller. Best regards Markus Am 11.07.2011 01:05, schrieb Grzegorz Joachimiak: Dear Bernhard and Markus, I would like to add that I searched also others engraving portraits of Weiss by Folino. I think that very interesting things are so-called "independent" engraving (not included in "Neue Bibliothek der schönen Wissenschaften ...", Vol. 1, 1765). These informations wrote in Singer's catalogue (H. W. Singer, Allgemeiner Bildniskatalog, Leipzig 1934, no. 95597). One copy was/is (?) in Vienna National Library, two copies were/are in Dresden, one copy was in Breslau/Wroclaw-Stadtbibliothek Breslau (now in Wroclaw University Library) and one (no mentioned by Singer) is in Paris National Library. Probably an engraving from Stadtbibliothek Breslau is actually in Ossolinski National Institute, Department of Prints (Graphic). Look at http://www2.oss.wroc.pl/index.php/english/ (there are only my presumption based on the same possessor's name who had collection of engravings from Stadtbibliothek Breslau. Engraving preserved in "Ossolineum" contains in paper no provenance sign, so I can not be sure). These engravings were obtained and than sold after 2nd World War by Mr. Zdzislaw Szczyglowski from Raciborz (germ. Ratibor). Department of Prints (Graphic) in Wroclaw University Library also bought graphics in auction from Mr. Szczyglowski from Raciborz so I thought that probably there was the same person who sold in auction "independent" engraving with Weiss's portrait to Ossolineum. Actually in Wroclaw University Library we could find only index card connected of engraving with Weiss's portrait from Stadtbibliothek Breslau. I wrote short article about these things (cf. semi-annual Polish magazine about baroque history, literature, art: "Barok" 17 (2010) no. 2, pp. 97-105: http://www.neriton.apnet.pl/product_info.php?cPath=47&products_id=643 ). In Ossolinski National Institute I found others engraving by Folino. In Warsaw Gallery called "Na Tlumackiem" existed among others things two portraits of musicians by Denner: J. A. Hasse and G. F. Haendel. Unfortunately this gallery actually is not exist and we do not know where is this collection now (A. Ryszkiewicz, Kolekcjonerzy i milosnicy, Warszawa 1981). By Folino in Ossolinski National Institute, Department of Prints in Wroclaw (Ossolineum) I found also similar manner of Folino's engraving technique like portrait of Weiss: e.g. portrait of Stanislaw August with Ciolek coat of arms, bust of Adam Naruszewicz and Maciej Kazimierz Sarbiewski (follow by medallion from 1770). Best wishes Grzegorz Dnia 10-07-2011 o godz. 22:04 Markus Lutz napisał(a): Dear Bernhard, no there isn't any further portrait of Weiss, only the picture by Denner and the engraving of this portrait. It's true, that Hoffmann writes about three, but the engraving in the "Neue Bibliothek der schönen Wissenschaften ...", Vol. 1, 1765, is the engraving by Folin! So he is wrong. On the following site you will find a digital copy of the complete volume: http://scout.ub.uni-potsdam.de/fea/digbib/view?did=c1:209&p=1 But the quality of the copy, especially of the engraving is very poor. Also on http://www.tabulatura.com you will find a better copy of it. Kenneth Sparr writes there: "Silvius Leopold Weiss. Copper engraving [1765] by Bartolomeo Folino [1730-after 1808] , after a painting (c. 1740), now lost, by Balthasar Denner [1685-1749]. This engraving (a copy of which is in the author's collection) was included in the first volume of Neuen Bibliothek der schönen Wissenschaften und freyen Künste, Leipzig 1765. The reasons for dating the original painting to c. 1740 is that it shows Weiss in his "mature" years and that Denner in 1740 also portrayed Johann Adolf Hasse, who was the leader of the court orchestra at Dresden. It is hardly likely that the engraving was made b
