[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pesne
I got to it somehow from the youTube preformance that you posted. Here's a small version of the picture. Dale - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dale Young [EMAIL PROTECTED]; BAROQUE-LUTE baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pesne I have no idea which video site that may be. RT - Original Message - From: Dale Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: BAROQUE-LUTE baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 3:17 PM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pesne Maybe the painter was messing with us Or he originally did two identical paintings only one of them had some errors we were supposed to spot. And the correct painting is hidden in an attic in Dusseldorf...Yeah that's it! Anyhow, Roman, You have a really cool picture on your video site of a lautespieler (13 course/rider/reflex pegbox) with a great hat and coat. Can I get a larger format download of that? Dale - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: BAROQUE-LUTE baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 12:15 PM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pesne I am not 100% convinced. Mme Keyserlinck was not a run-of-the-mill cutie, but a noted virtuosa. RT - Original Message - From: David Van Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dale Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: baroque lute list baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED]; peter rauscher [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 1:06 PM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pesne I think Dale's right, it IS a prop, but still interesting as an instrument, that is it probably is not a fake in the Franciolini sense. Though I do now agree that, given the fret spacings, we probably can't be certain the the bridge spacings show a double top course and 12 courses rather than singel top and second and 13 courses. The red basses remain as evidence though. David At 12:49 -0500 4/3/07, Dale Young wrote: Equally spaced ie not graduated in any kind of Pythagorean construct ? Give a cute little girl who is having to rearrange the string spacing to accomodate her little hand an instrument with an abnormally long fingerboard with ungraduated fret spacing... it's a prop. I rest my case ladies and gentlemen. She's still cute. Dale - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: baroque lute list baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED]; peter rauscher [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Dale Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 10:30 AM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pesne There is a 14 fret Schelle in Budapest. RT - Original Message - From: Dale Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: baroque lute list baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED]; peter rauscher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 12:24 PM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pesne Okay, If you're going to make the reach easier, one would have the string spacing compressed toward the hand edge of the fingerboard not away from it. Just me? Thirteen equally spaced frets on the neck, abnormal, at least for 18th century west central european terrestrial lute.(don't want to step on anyone's toes here. Might be the thing for air lute) Dale - Original Message - From: peter rauscher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: baroque lute list baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Dale Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 4:38 AM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pesne Dear List, I think on the painting there is a real lute played by the beautiful lady. I think the reason for the strange stringing is that the sattle and the distance between the strings was changed to fit the smaller fingers of a young lady. do you think the red color of the bass strings is because they are wound with copper? I counted 13 frets - not unusual. regards from austria, peter - Original Message - From: Dale Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: baroque lute list baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 6:22 AM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pesne As for accuracy, I think there are a couple too many frets for reality.Which makes the whole lute thing look more like a prop. She sure is cute. Too bad, she's probably dead by now. Dale - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: baroque lute list baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 12:46 PM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pesne I like her right hand. It looks very relaxed. The pinky is outside the bridge and I bet she would have slid the whole hand gracefully upwards when she needed to reach the lowest sounding courses, keeping the little finger
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pesne
Dear Roman, What a wonderful picture, thank you! Very interesting indeed. I make it a twelve course lute with double top and second courses which, for the date, is very unusual. The red basses to the octave courses are also clearly shown and clearly distinguished from the bright white of the octaves. Also the close spacing of the unfingered bass courses is very striking, so close that it implies quite soft playing of the bass courses. And the useful gap at the nut end between the last of the fingered strings and the first of the unfingered, allowing her to reach for the 8th course without fouling the ninth. I wonder what sort of lute it was, it could be the normal swan-neck German baroque form or some sort of theorbo style extension. Do you know the exact date or more about it? I may have missed some earlier posting if it went to the normal lute list as I'm only subscribed to the baroque list at the moment. Best wishes, David At 18:29 -0400 30/3/07, Roman Turovsky wrote: I have a high-res image of Pesne's portraing of Mme.Kayserlinck, and her lute shows rather unusual stringing: http://polyhymnion.org/swv/Keyserlinck.jpg RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pesne
From: David Van Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Roman, What a wonderful picture, thank you! Very interesting indeed. I make it a twelve course lute with double top and second courses which, for the date, is very unusual. The red basses to the octave courses are also clearly shown and clearly distinguished from the bright white of the octaves. Also the close spacing of the unfingered bass courses is very striking, so close that it implies quite soft playing of the bass courses. And the useful gap at the nut end between the last of the fingered strings and the first of the unfingered, allowing her to reach for the 8th course without fouling the ninth. I wonder what sort of lute it was, it could be the normal swan-neck German baroque form or some sort of theorbo style extension. I suspect the latter. Note the saddle where there are 2 visible notches of the missing first course. The strings are in a more or less normal position at the body joint, but quite far from the edge of the fingerboard near the saddle. Do you know the exact date or more about it? I may have missed some earlier posting if it went to the normal lute list as I'm only subscribed to the baroque list at the moment. I don't have the date, but it is 2nd quarter to be sure. RT Best wishes, David At 18:29 -0400 30/3/07, Roman Turovsky wrote: I have a high-res image of Pesne's portraing of Mme.Kayserlinck, and her lute shows rather unusual stringing: http://polyhymnion.org/swv/Keyserlinck.jpg RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pesne
I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Mme had an idiosyncratic stringing. She was a player of renown (supposedly birds avoided chirping when she played), and presumably inspected the details before accepting the commissioned. RT - Original Message - From: Gernot Hilger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: BAROQUE-LUTE baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 8:28 AM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pesne It appears that the lute was a painter's requisite lying around and the upper courses just got slack and slipped at the nut. There is no sensible reason to arrange the strings intentionally. At the bridge it can be seen that there is no course missing. Funny that somebody caring to depict the different string types should be so careless as not to rearrange the string band. g On 31.03.2007, at 13:49, Roman Turovsky wrote: From: David Van Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Roman, What a wonderful picture, thank you! Very interesting indeed. I make it a twelve course lute with double top and second courses which, for the date, is very unusual. The red basses to the octave courses are also clearly shown and clearly distinguished from the bright white of the octaves. Also the close spacing of the unfingered bass courses is very striking, so close that it implies quite soft playing of the bass courses. And the useful gap at the nut end between the last of the fingered strings and the first of the unfingered, allowing her to reach for the 8th course without fouling the ninth. I wonder what sort of lute it was, it could be the normal swan-neck German baroque form or some sort of theorbo style extension. I suspect the latter. Note the saddle where there are 2 visible notches of the missing first course. The strings are in a more or less normal position at the body joint, but quite far from the edge of the fingerboard near the saddle. Do you know the exact date or more about it? I may have missed some earlier posting if it went to the normal lute list as I'm only subscribed to the baroque list at the moment. I don't have the date, but it is 2nd quarter to be sure. RT Best wishes, David At 18:29 -0400 30/3/07, Roman Turovsky wrote: I have a high-res image of Pesne's portraing of Mme.Kayserlinck, and her lute shows rather unusual stringing: http://polyhymnion.org/swv/Keyserlinck.jpg RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pesne
Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 08:43:10 +0100 (BST) From: Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Pesne To: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank you for this. Indeed, but I wonder about the accuracy of the painter: for example - the 'first' course (doubled?) at the bridge runs to the second (or possibly third if two highest are single) course at the nut; - the spacing of courses is significantly uneven (especially the basses). Perhaps he painted the lute in later, from an incorrectly strung instrument, after painting his illustrious sitter or he wasn't bothered about such details provided the sitter looked good on the canvas MH Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a high-res image of Pesne's portraing of Mme.Kayserlinck, and her lute shows rather unusual stringing: http://polyhymnion.org/swv/Keyserlinck.jpg RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - New Yahoo! Mail is the ultimate force in competitive emailing. Find out more at the Yahoo! Mail Championships. Plus: play games and win prizes. - The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pesne
As for accuracy, I think there are a couple too many frets for reality.Which makes the whole lute thing look more like a prop. She sure is cute. Too bad, she's probably dead by now. Dale - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: baroque lute list baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 12:46 PM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pesne I like her right hand. It looks very relaxed. The pinky is outside the bridge and I bet she would have slid the whole hand gracefully upwards when she needed to reach the lowest sounding courses, keeping the little finger outside and parallel to the bridge the whole time. I'm sure she could play and remain pretty and dignified alla Mary Burwel. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
