[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music
s being made. I include modern gut >in my plethora of stringings. And Ed, I applaud your >and others' efforts with using gut strings. You've >gotten some very beautiful results with it. > >However, it is a dangerous game for us as players to >be basing important musical considerations solely >around our very limited assumptions of those strings >today. > > > I was recently in South Dakota, examining 2 > > Edlingers. One has a string > > length of 76 cm, the other one 81 or 82 cm. These > > are 13 course baroque > > lutes, not theorbos. They certainly could not be > > string with a gut treble > > up to "f" at 415. > > > >No, what you meant to say is that we can not string it >up to "f" at 415 (or 423 or 445) with one of our guts >today. ;-) > >Chris > > > > > > ed > > > > At 11:43 AM 2/14/2008 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote: > > >Thanks everyone for the responses so far! > > >The info on wind instruments and the prevalence of > > +/- 392Hz etc. is > > >clearbut I am just not convinced yet... > > >For most string instruments, the usual method was > > to tune the highest note > > >as high as comfortable, and go from there. > > >Especially when used for solo work of course. > > >We hear many stories about how wonderful the old > > strings must have been, > > >etc. so I can only suppose that their gut trebles > > >didn't break as easily (perhaps) as ours do. I can > > now use gut f' at 415Hz > > >and 68cm for about 2 weeks before it breaks. > > > > > >If their strings were so much better, than likely > > this would be a longer > > >period.Or, it could mean that they were using a > > higher pitch > > >to begin with, since their strings were so much > > better? I think everyone > > >using full gut would agree that the basses just > > need the extra > > >pitch raising to 400 or 415 to sound really > > optimal. One must always trade > > >off the sound of the chanterelle and the bass notes > > in my personal opnion.. > > > > > >Sure, my lute sounds great at 392 in full gut; but > > in trying to find > > >out/experiment/fantasize about what was typical > > back then, > > >I really wonder if the pitch wasn't higher than we > > imagine...despite all the > > >wonderful recordings in low pitch 392. > > >Are we merely accepting something because it has > > been done that way so > > >often? > > > > > > > > > > > >From: howard posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:03:08 -0800 > > >To: baroque Lutelist > > > > >Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music > > > > > >On Feb 13, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Edward Martin wrote: > > > > > > > Generally, the lute in mid to later 17th century > > France was the d > > > > minor > > > > tuning. The top string was usually at "f". For > > a length of 68 cm, > > > > generally, a gut treble can go to f at a=415. > > If you exceed 68 cm, > > > > the > > > > standard for "a" probably dropped a bit, as with > > my many years of > > > > experience, the treble will break prematurely. > > > > > > > > For example, if your lute is 72 cm mensur, the > > standard should be a > > > > bit > > > > lower, .e. a = 392. > > > > > >No lie. > > > > > >392 seems to have been the standard pitch. at least > > in Paris, judging > > >from the woodwind instruments that came from there > > in the later 17th > > >century. You might want to give it a try even on a > > 68 cm lute and > > >experiment with the lower tension. In spite of > > what you may have > > >heard recently in this part of cyberspace a propos > > of theorbos, > > >French musicians generally and lutenists in > > particular probably were > > >less concerned with loudness than their Italian > > counterparts > > >(contemporary accounts indicate they didn't play > > nearly as loudly), > > >so in stringing there are aesthetic considerations > > at work other than > > >the breaking point of the high string. > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at > > > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > > > > > >-- > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > > >Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1277 - > > Release Date: 2/13/2008 > > >8:00 PM > > > > > > > > Edward Martin > > 2817 East 2nd Street > > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > voice: (218) 728-1202 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Looking for last minute shopping deals? >Find them fast with Yahoo! >Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1277 - Release Date: 2/13/2008 >8:00 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music
ppose that their gut trebles didn't break as easily (perhaps) as ours do. I can now use gut f' at 415Hz and 68cm for about 2 weeks before it breaks. If their strings were so much better, than likely this would be a longer period.Or, it could mean that they were using a higher pitch to begin with, since their strings were so much better? I think everyone using full gut would agree that the basses just need the extra pitch raising to 400 or 415 to sound really optimal. One must always trade off the sound of the chanterelle and the bass notes in my personal opnion.. Sure, my lute sounds great at 392 in full gut; but in trying to find out/experiment/fantasize about what was typical back then, I really wonder if the pitch wasn't higher than we imagine...despite all the wonderful recordings in low pitch 392. Are we merely accepting something because it has been done that way so often? From: howard posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:03:08 -0800 To: baroque Lutelist Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music On Feb 13, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Edward Martin wrote: Generally, the lute in mid to later 17th century France was the d minor tuning. The top string was usually at "f". For a length of 68 cm, generally, a gut treble can go to f at a=415. If you exceed 68 cm, the standard for "a" probably dropped a bit, as with my many years of experience, the treble will break prematurely. For example, if your lute is 72 cm mensur, the standard should be a bit lower, .e. a = 392. No lie. 392 seems to have been the standard pitch. at least in Paris, judging from the woodwind instruments that came from there in the later 17th century. You might want to give it a try even on a 68 cm lute and experiment with the lower tension. In spite of what you may have heard recently in this part of cyberspace a propos of theorbos, French musicians generally and lutenists in particular probably were less concerned with loudness than their Italian counterparts (contemporary accounts indicate they didn't play nearly as loudly), so in stringing there are aesthetic considerations at work other than the breaking point of the high string. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1277 - Release Date: 2/13/2008 8:00 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 __ __ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/ newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music
Hi Theo, Harpsichords and woodwind did not undergo a radical retuning as did the lute, which very likely dropped in tension as it dropped in pitch. Also, the 11c repertoire is almost exclusively solo - so, what other instruments were tuned to is arguably of no importance. But if you want to tune to 414, 440, or 780, I'm very happy for you to do so. At risk of repeating myself, there is no definite proof for any particular 11c lute at any particular pitch. Secondary and circumstantial evidence will not lead to a definte answer. My bet is that many players used different pitches - even the same player might have used different pitches on different lutes. And I, for one, think that is a good thing. Vive le differance! Cheers :-) Rob On 14/02/2008, T. Diehl-Peshkur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi Rob, > For harpsichords, there are many different studies where is is shown that > the tensile strength the local string product determined the scaling and > pitch of the highest notes. > In other words, the highest string was calculated to be at just near the > breaking point. With violins, perhaps something similar occurred in a > different manner with the e-string and piano pitch as orchestras in Europe > went as high as 460Hz during the late 19th/early 20th century. > > Woodwinds, that seem to be the primary source for many regarding pitch, > are typically played with other instruments, generally not solo. So the > lower pitch of > French woodwinds doesn't really impress. > > In gut, 68cm at 392, we are already at about 2mm for the 11th course > diapasonYet the (better) pictures like the famous Mouton portrait and > other pics one sees seem to have strings not really so thick > visually(Making a jump: if we look at the original Schelle at Yale (OK, > not French, indeed) with a string length of 65cm and 12 and 13 under about > 69cm, then you would need ropes for this lute- unless it was quite high > pitched. They probably just tuned it up until everything sounded convincing > I suppose. > > Rob, in the end, we have no disagreement about pitch- let the lute itself > decide! > However, the longer I think about it, the less I believe that the > (generally) shorter French lutes were as low as the well known players > (read: existing recordings) would have us all believe. > Cheers, > Theo > > > -- > *From: *Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > *Date: *Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:57:14 +0000 > *To: *"T. Diehl-Peshkur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > *Cc: *baroque Lutelist > *Subject: *Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music > > > > >>>On 14/02/2008, *T. Diehl-Peshkur* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > For most string instruments, the usual method was to tune the highest note > as high as comfortable, and go from there.<<< > > > > I haven't found a 17th or 18th-century French source for that. Have you? > Without a quotation to back you up, there is little strength to your > arguement. First of all you say 'MOST string instruments', and then 'USUAL > method'. What evidence do you have? I don't want to seem as though I am > attacking you over this, as I'm not. My view is that there is so little > exacting evidence, that any stance is hard to justify. I also agree with > David's points. When it comes to solo playing, let your instrument teach you > what IT wants. If that be 394 or 417, then so be it. > > Rob > > -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music
David gave the best description. It is more a matter of tension, than it is pitch. I am uncertain if the strings back in the period were better than ours today. That is unproven, and as we have no strings of which to compare, we really cannot assume they were better than what is available today. I was recently in South Dakota, examining 2 Edlingers. One has a string length of 76 cm, the other one 81 or 82 cm. These are 13 course baroque lutes, not theorbos. They certainly could not be string with a gut treble up to "f" at 415. ed At 11:43 AM 2/14/2008 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote: >Thanks everyone for the responses so far! >The info on wind instruments and the prevalence of +/- 392Hz etc. is >clearbut I am just not convinced yet... >For most string instruments, the usual method was to tune the highest note >as high as comfortable, and go from there. >Especially when used for solo work of course. >We hear many stories about how wonderful the old strings must have been, >etc. so I can only suppose that their gut trebles >didn't break as easily (perhaps) as ours do. I can now use gut f' at 415Hz >and 68cm for about 2 weeks before it breaks. > >If their strings were so much better, than likely this would be a longer >period.Or, it could mean that they were using a higher pitch >to begin with, since their strings were so much better? I think everyone >using full gut would agree that the basses just need the extra >pitch raising to 400 or 415 to sound really optimal. One must always trade >off the sound of the chanterelle and the bass notes in my personal opnion.. > >Sure, my lute sounds great at 392 in full gut; but in trying to find >out/experiment/fantasize about what was typical back then, >I really wonder if the pitch wasn't higher than we imagine...despite all the >wonderful recordings in low pitch 392. >Are we merely accepting something because it has been done that way so >often? > > > >From: howard posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:03:08 -0800 >To: baroque Lutelist >Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music > >On Feb 13, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Edward Martin wrote: > > > Generally, the lute in mid to later 17th century France was the d > > minor > > tuning. The top string was usually at "f". For a length of 68 cm, > > generally, a gut treble can go to f at a=415. If you exceed 68 cm, > > the > > standard for "a" probably dropped a bit, as with my many years of > > experience, the treble will break prematurely. > > > > For example, if your lute is 72 cm mensur, the standard should be a > > bit > > lower, .e. a = 392. > >No lie. > >392 seems to have been the standard pitch. at least in Paris, judging >from the woodwind instruments that came from there in the later 17th >century. You might want to give it a try even on a 68 cm lute and >experiment with the lower tension. In spite of what you may have >heard recently in this part of cyberspace a propos of theorbos, >French musicians generally and lutenists in particular probably were >less concerned with loudness than their Italian counterparts >(contemporary accounts indicate they didn't play nearly as loudly), >so in stringing there are aesthetic considerations at work other than >the breaking point of the high string. > > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > >-- > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1277 - Release Date: 2/13/2008 >8:00 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music
>>>On 14/02/2008, T. Diehl-Peshkur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > For most string instruments, the usual method was to tune the highest note > as high as comfortable, and go from there.<<< I haven't found a 17th or 18th-century French source for that. Have you? Without a quotation to back you up, there is little strength to your arguement. First of all you say 'MOST string instruments', and then 'USUAL method'. What evidence do you have? I don't want to seem as though I am attacking you over this, as I'm not. My view is that there is so little exacting evidence, that any stance is hard to justify. I also agree with David's points. When it comes to solo playing, let your instrument teach you what IT wants. If that be 394 or 417, then so be it. Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music
Thanks everyone for the responses so far! The info on wind instruments and the prevalence of +/- 392Hz etc. is clearbut I am just not convinced yet... For most string instruments, the usual method was to tune the highest note as high as comfortable, and go from there. Especially when used for solo work of course. We hear many stories about how wonderful the old strings must have been, etc. so I can only suppose that their gut trebles didn't break as easily (perhaps) as ours do. I can now use gut f' at 415Hz and 68cm for about 2 weeks before it breaks. If their strings were so much better, than likely this would be a longer period.Or, it could mean that they were using a higher pitch to begin with, since their strings were so much better? I think everyone using full gut would agree that the basses just need the extra pitch raising to 400 or 415 to sound really optimal. One must always trade off the sound of the chanterelle and the bass notes in my personal opnion.. Sure, my lute sounds great at 392 in full gut; but in trying to find out/experiment/fantasize about what was typical back then, I really wonder if the pitch wasn't higher than we imagine...despite all the wonderful recordings in low pitch 392. Are we merely accepting something because it has been done that way so often? From: howard posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:03:08 -0800 To: baroque Lutelist Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music On Feb 13, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Edward Martin wrote: > Generally, the lute in mid to later 17th century France was the d > minor > tuning. The top string was usually at "f". For a length of 68 cm, > generally, a gut treble can go to f at a=415. If you exceed 68 cm, > the > standard for "a" probably dropped a bit, as with my many years of > experience, the treble will break prematurely. > > For example, if your lute is 72 cm mensur, the standard should be a > bit > lower, .e. a = 392. No lie. 392 seems to have been the standard pitch. at least in Paris, judging from the woodwind instruments that came from there in the later 17th century. You might want to give it a try even on a 68 cm lute and experiment with the lower tension. In spite of what you may have heard recently in this part of cyberspace a propos of theorbos, French musicians generally and lutenists in particular probably were less concerned with loudness than their Italian counterparts (contemporary accounts indicate they didn't play nearly as loudly), so in stringing there are aesthetic considerations at work other than the breaking point of the high string. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music
I play at 392 with a string length of 69. My baroque guitar is also at 392 for de Visee. This is a home recording of my 11c: http://www.rmguitar.info/mp3s/11c/TombeauDeDuBut.mp3 Some like that low pitch, others don't. You will read conflicting reports about pitch during this period in France, and ultimtely you will have to make your own choice. I've made mine. Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music
On Feb 13, 2008, at 6:42 PM, Edward Martin wrote: > Yes, the French seem to have played at a lower standard. Well, let's not be unkind... > Even Hoppy > Smith's Vieux Gaultier recording was at 392. I didn't know Hoppy was =06French. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music
Yes, the French seem to have played at a lower standard. Even Hoppy Smith's Vieux Gaultier recording was at 392. ed At 05:03 PM 2/13/2008 -0800, howard posner wrote: >On Feb 13, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Edward Martin wrote: > > > Generally, the lute in mid to later 17th century France was the d > > minor > > tuning. The top string was usually at "f". For a length of 68 cm, > > generally, a gut treble can go to f at a=415. If you exceed 68 cm, > > the > > standard for "a" probably dropped a bit, as with my many years of > > experience, the treble will break prematurely. > > > > For example, if your lute is 72 cm mensur, the standard should be a > > bit > > lower, .e. a = 392. > >No lie. > >392 seems to have been the standard pitch. at least in Paris, judging >from the woodwind instruments that came from there in the later 17th >century. You might want to give it a try even on a 68 cm lute and >experiment with the lower tension. In spite of what you may have >heard recently in this part of cyberspace a propos of theorbos, >French musicians generally and lutenists in particular probably were >less concerned with loudness than their Italian counterparts >(contemporary accounts indicate they didn't play nearly as loudly), >so in stringing there are aesthetic considerations at work other than >the breaking point of the high string. > > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1275 - Release Date: 2/12/2008 >3:20 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music
On Feb 13, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Edward Martin wrote: > Generally, the lute in mid to later 17th century France was the d > minor > tuning. The top string was usually at "f". For a length of 68 cm, > generally, a gut treble can go to f at a=415. If you exceed 68 cm, > the > standard for "a" probably dropped a bit, as with my many years of > experience, the treble will break prematurely. > > For example, if your lute is 72 cm mensur, the standard should be a > bit > lower, .e. a = 392. No lie. 392 seems to have been the standard pitch. at least in Paris, judging from the woodwind instruments that came from there in the later 17th century. You might want to give it a try even on a 68 cm lute and experiment with the lower tension. In spite of what you may have heard recently in this part of cyberspace a propos of theorbos, French musicians generally and lutenists in particular probably were less concerned with loudness than their Italian counterparts (contemporary accounts indicate they didn't play nearly as loudly), so in stringing there are aesthetic considerations at work other than the breaking point of the high string. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music
Generally, the lute in mid to later 17th century France was the d minor tuning. The top string was usually at "f". For a length of 68 cm, generally, a gut treble can go to f at a=415. If you exceed 68 cm, the standard for "a" probably dropped a bit, as with my many years of experience, the treble will break prematurely. For example, if your lute is 72 cm mensur, the standard should be a bit lower, .e. a = 392. My 2 cents worth. ed At 11:43 PM 2/13/2008 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote: >Hello collective wisdom! >Is there a general consensus about pitch for 68cm string length lutes and >17th century (solo) French lute music? >Of course there is no real perfect answer; and many pitches would have been >used, but I am curious what everyone is using >in their everyday playing situations... >Thanks, >Theo > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1275 - Release Date: 2/12/2008 >3:20 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
