Re: Copper garden tools, ..still
Manfred, The copper issue seems to me one where analysis of the soil is needed. Here is a site which has a pretty full set of data: http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/envision/sudbury/ccme_canadian/ Because of the use of copper based fungicides in, especially, orchards, there may be some soils with excessive copper in which the use of copper tools would be ill advised. Swine manures frequently contain copper in amounts and forms that are deleterious to earthworms, and soils which are regularly and heavily treated with such manures would probably not benefit from the use of copper tools. OTOH, copper is often low in soils, and in such soils the use of copper tools may add enough copper to make a positive difference. Looking over the tools in question I noted that they were intended for soils *already* under cultivation, not as primary tillage tools. I wonder if there are sources for the sort of strong alloy tools Steve Storch is talking about. I would still likely want to treat a low copper situation with a naturally rich copper source, matrixed in compost/vermicompost, in relatively precise amounts. Copper tools may have virtues beyond the application of copper to the soil, but I would hesitate to use them unless I knew the soil really needed copper. Frank Teuton lks : I checked with Lee Valley Tools, and apparently they don't carry the copper-button Hoe anymore. I've requested info on their old stock. I remember it more as a large copper rivet whose sloughing-off would be much less imposing than sprinkling around filings of copper, methinks. I did not purchase one at the time because i could not reconcile Frank's similar concern with any copper in the ground without a basis in existing presence , and the voluminous amount --suggested by Schauberger-via -Steve --thru the use of several plowshares at a time. Frank, Steve, : does it repulse worms/microlife, or over-ridingly benefit in water-retention properties? Should we be that concerned as Schauberger seemed to be? The proportion of copper in bronze is obviously less than a pure copper contact. Incidentally, Lee Valley also sold longish copper strips -1-inch wide for slugs in the garden for its electro/chemical reaction. ...manfred
Re: Copper garden tools, ..still
Manfred and All: Peaceful Valley Farm Supply www.groworganic.com carries a hook-type cultivator with copper rivet for about $24. You mention Lee Valley Tools. Probably a lot of folks in the U.S. aren't familiar with this Canadian company, which carries high quality garden and woodworking tools at very reasonable prices, even more reasonable considering that the U.S. dollar is worth $1.60 Canadian these days.. Their classic reprint series of books, long out of print until they republished them, is very interesting. And, they have the ORIGINAL duct tape--twice as strong and twice as sticky!www.leevalley.com 800-267-8767 Woody Aurora Farm is the onlyunsubsidized, family-run seed farm in North America offering garden seedsgrown using Rudolf Steiner's methods of spiritual agriculture. http://www.kootenay.com/~aurora -Original Message-From: Manfred Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: Saturday, March 02, 2002 8:24 PMSubject: Re: Copper garden tools, ..still Folks : I checked with Lee Valley Tools, and apparently they don't carry the copper-button Hoe anymore. I've requested info on their old stock. I remember it more as a large copper rivet whose sloughing-off would be much less imposing than sprinkling around filings of copper, methinks. I did not purchase one at the time because i could not reconcile Frank's similar concern with any copper in the ground without a basis in existing presence , and the voluminous amount --suggested by Schauberger-via -Steve --thru the use of severalplowshares at a time. Frank, Steve, : does it repulse worms/microlife, orover-ridingly benefit in water-retention properties? Should we be that concerned as Schauberger seemed to be?The proportion of copper in bronze is obviously less than a "pure" copper contact. Incidentally, Lee Valley also sold longish copper strips -1-inch wide for slugs in the garden forits electro/chemical reaction. ...manfred
Re: Copper garden tools, ..still
Looking over the tools in question I noted that they were intended for soils *already* under cultivation, not as primary tillage tools I wonder if there are sources for the sort of strong alloy tools Steve Storch is talking about My read is that Viktor Schauberger was advocating farm implements that were plated with copper but were not made of copper Frank, et al, - Most cattle feeds are supplemented with copper to the point that are considered to be dangerous to sheep (sheep apparently cannot eliminate cooper appropriately and it eventually becomes toxic in their systems) Does this added copper interfere with the decomposition of cow pies in the pasture? And what about me, BD grower who likes to treat his cows to a bucket or so of feedstore sweetfeed a week (just as he likes to treat himself to a bucket or so of Ben and Jerry's a week, at least until 7 Stars brings out Kimberton Krunch) Is there enough copper blowby in small amounts of feed like that to make that maure inappropirate (counterindicated) for barrel compost? Thanks
Re: Copper garden tools, ..still
The use of copper is not quite related to copper as a soluble element, but as a ''mineral'' in its raw elemental form in very small and tiny filings as the soil abrades micro-amounts of the cu away from the tool Iron destroys soils water holding capacity and certainly has other deleterious effects, yet we do not analyze the need for iron when we apply a steel implement to our soils and abrade this elementinto our soils SStorch
Re: Copper garden tools, ..still
Frank, et al, - Most cattle feeds are supplemented with copper to the point that are considered to be dangerous to sheep (sheep apparently cannot eliminate cooper appropriately and it eventually becomes toxic in their systems). Does this added copper interfere with the decomposition of cow pies in the pasture? I hate to waffle but the short answer is, I don't know. If the levels are too high, then several members of the detritivore community will be inhibited, according to stuff I read from the site I posted to Manfred and the list earlier. If the levels are just right, everything is beautiful. There definitely is enough copper in commercial swine manure to inhibit earthworm (Eisenia fetida and Eisenia andrei) activity. Precomposting the manure apparently changes the valence of the copper rendering it harmless to the worms. If you made a compost or vermicompost with your cattle manure, and then made a tea from that, and applied it to the pasture, it may contain copper adapted microbes that would hasten the transformation of your fresh manure copper into something local fauna could handle. Sounds like a good question to pose to Elaine, among others. Frank
Re: Copper garden tools, ..still
Regarding Copper tools -- if you like fine tools -- then, why not buy some? But -- do you use a tiller -- do you use a disc plow -- do you use a spader? Obviously, if a person is doing mostly gardening -- there will be more need for hand tools and perhaps the copper is best. But, if you are using any of the above heavy equipment -- the most wear and deposit in the soil will be from those heavier implements. Honestly, can't see how it will matter much either way... Best. Wayne *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Sharon and Wayne McEachern http://www.LightExpression.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] A Divine Program for Healing and Transformation and Expressing the Light A Ministry Dedicated to the Divine Process *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Re: Copper garden tools, ..still
According to my old Engineers Charts the following figures are given: Copper coldworked (the hardest type) Tensile strength 17 - 25 Tons psi Hardness 80 -100 Brinnel Phosphor Bronze Tensile strength 15 - 20 tons psi Hardness 170 -180 Brinnel Mild steel Tensile strength 25 -34 tons psi Hardness 125 - 175 Brinnel Hard facing Hardness 700 - 800 Brinnel I point this out not say there is anything wrong with what you say, but to show that the points even in phosphor bronze will wear very quickly. Obviously this is what is wanted to spread the copper into the ground, I would not expect the points to last long. David C - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, 3 March 2002 6:38 PM Subject: Re: Copper garden tools, ..still In a message dated 3/2/02 11:23:17 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Frank, Steve, : does it repulse worms/microlife, or over-ridingly benefit in water-retention properties? Should we be that concerned as Schauberger seemed to be? No worms and soil flora and fauna will not be repulsed but encouraged. Schauberger recommended phosphor-bronze, almost as hard as steel...sstorch
Re: Copper garden tools, ..still
Folks : I checked with Lee Valley Tools, and apparently they don't carry the copper-button Hoe anymore. I've requested info on their old stock. I remember it more as a large copper rivet whose sloughing-off would be much less imposing than sprinkling around filings of copper, methinks. I did not purchase one at the time because i could not reconcile Frank's similar concern with any copper in the ground without a basis in existing presence , and the voluminous amount --suggested by Schauberger-via -Steve --thru the use of severalplowshares at a time. Frank, Steve, : does it repulse worms/microlife, orover-ridingly benefit in water-retention properties? Should we be that concerned as Schauberger seemed to be?The proportion of copper in bronze is obviously less than a "pure" copper contact. Incidentally, Lee Valley also sold longish copper strips -1-inch wide for slugs in the garden forits electro/chemical reaction. ...manfred
Re: Copper garden tools, ..still
In a message dated 3/2/02 11:23:17 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Frank, Steve, : does it repulse worms/microlife, or over-ridingly benefit in water-retention properties? Should we be that concerned as Schauberger seemed to be? No worms and soil flora and fauna will not be repulsed but encouraged. Schauberger recommended phosphor-bronze, almost as hard as steel...sstorch
