Re: [Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted
Hi Martin, This is the new bump commit, august 2009: http://projects.blender.org/scm/viewvc.php?view=revroot=bf-blenderrevision=21771 The patch was provided by Eeshlo, but he didn't want to maintain it further. It has been added on artist requests because it visually looked much better - at first sight - but the code never got a real review or quality check. On dec 27 last year I mailed to this list a short overview of the problems with the new bump. We also suffered bad noisy normal textures in Sintel all over... The texture code already was an evolved nightmare, and with this commit only became less. I rather not even attempt to understand fix it anymore, but keep 2.56 code work and switch to a revamped shade/ texture system asap. -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.orgwww.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 22 Feb, 2011, at 22:58, Martin Poirier wrote: Before changing everything again, can we go back to the revision that introduced the change in the first place and maybe understand why it was done? There was probably a reason, even if it wasn't a good one, understanding why might be useful. Martin --- On Tue, 2/22/11, Sean Olson seanol...@gmail.com wrote: From: Sean Olson seanol...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted To: bf-blender developers bf-committers@blender.org Received: Tuesday, February 22, 2011, 4:35 PM I also could not agree more. Some standardization here would get rid of plenty of headaches. To be clear, the step that I would like to avoid is under: GIMPing the image on this page: http://www.foro3d.com/f217/blender-normal-mapping-76567.html (It's basically just instructing to invert the green channel) http://www.foro3d.com/f217/blender-normal-mapping-76567.htmlI believe it worked this way in 2.49 and currently works this way also though I have not tested very recently. If I recall the results of the last mailing list conversation on this subject, the consensus was that there is no 'standard' on ways to do normal mapping so Blender's is as good as anybody else's, and is not technically 'wrong'. The problem is that most of the other apps have standardized in 'the other method'. I tried tracking the email thread down, but after about an hour of digging have given up. -Sean On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Morten Mikkelsen mikkels...@gmail.com wrote: Make it standard please, nmaps are something that you usually share between softwares. no point in forcing headaches to users Daniel Salazar May your first born be a son and may your harvest be plentiful!! :) I could not agree more. That's exactly why this patch needs to go in asap. Normal maps are indeed typically exported between tools. 2011/2/22 Knapp magick.c...@gmail.com: Just provide an external tool or add-on to fix the files. Perhaps pop up a warning: this file has a broken bump-map, run XXX to fix it. On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Thomas Dinges blen...@dingto.de wrote: I wouldn't do a hackish button either, if it works correct as in 2.49 it's fine and all we need. Am 22.02.2011 19:33, schrieb Ton Roosendaal: Hi all, The situation is worse apparently; up to Blender 2.49 the normal maps were fine, but the newbump patch in 2.51 made red channel become badly inverted. Having it work like in 2.49 is of course correct. Brings up the question if we should provide a hackish button to support bad normal maps created in the alpha/beta period. Morton's Mario's proposal is to not do this. I agree, it only makes UI uglier... :) -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.org www.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 20 Feb, 2011, at 14:45, Dalai Felinto wrote: Instead of old Blender Normal maps couldn't it be invert color channels [tooltip: old Blender Normal Maps - invert red/green channels? Or Blender was really the only software out there using those inverted? I remember this being discussed a while ago (1year or +) but don't remember what was the outcome of it. -- Dalai 2011/2/20 Ton Roosendaalt...@blender.org: Hi, I think Carsten's proposal is the nicest way, even when a bit ugly. We can add a version patch in .blend files that sets this button active for all old .blends, but not active for newly created textures. -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.org www.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 19 Feb, 2011, at 23:47, Carsten Wartmann wrote: Am 19.02.2011 23:08, schrieb
Re: [Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted
Hi all, The situation is worse apparently; up to Blender 2.49 the normal maps were fine, but the newbump patch in 2.51 made red channel become badly inverted. Having it work like in 2.49 is of course correct. Brings up the question if we should provide a hackish button to support bad normal maps created in the alpha/beta period. Morton's Mario's proposal is to not do this. I agree, it only makes UI uglier... :) -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.orgwww.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 20 Feb, 2011, at 14:45, Dalai Felinto wrote: Instead of old Blender Normal maps couldn't it be invert color channels [tooltip: old Blender Normal Maps - invert red/green channels? Or Blender was really the only software out there using those inverted? I remember this being discussed a while ago (1year or +) but don't remember what was the outcome of it. -- Dalai 2011/2/20 Ton Roosendaal t...@blender.org: Hi, I think Carsten's proposal is the nicest way, even when a bit ugly. We can add a version patch in .blend files that sets this button active for all old .blends, but not active for newly created textures. -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.orgwww.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 19 Feb, 2011, at 23:47, Carsten Wartmann wrote: Am 19.02.2011 23:08, schrieb Dalai Felinto: I wonder if instead of a commandline it would be possible to do this conversion with Python. I'm not sure of the current status of bpy for image handling, but it would be neat to have an addon for that. My idea was having a Button inside the Texture Context, Image Tab (beneath the Normal Map Button) to use old Blender Normal maps. Carsten -- Carsten Wartmann: Autor - Dozent - 3D - Grafik Homepage: http://blenderbuch.de/ Das Blender-Buch: http://blenderbuch.de/redirect.html ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted
Just provide an external tool or add-on to fix the files. Perhaps pop up a warning: this file has a broken bump-map, run XXX to fix it. On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Thomas Dinges blen...@dingto.de wrote: I wouldn't do a hackish button either, if it works correct as in 2.49 it's fine and all we need. Am 22.02.2011 19:33, schrieb Ton Roosendaal: Hi all, The situation is worse apparently; up to Blender 2.49 the normal maps were fine, but the newbump patch in 2.51 made red channel become badly inverted. Having it work like in 2.49 is of course correct. Brings up the question if we should provide a hackish button to support bad normal maps created in the alpha/beta period. Morton's Mario's proposal is to not do this. I agree, it only makes UI uglier... :) -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.orgwww.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 20 Feb, 2011, at 14:45, Dalai Felinto wrote: Instead of old Blender Normal maps couldn't it be invert color channels [tooltip: old Blender Normal Maps - invert red/green channels? Or Blender was really the only software out there using those inverted? I remember this being discussed a while ago (1year or +) but don't remember what was the outcome of it. -- Dalai 2011/2/20 Ton Roosendaalt...@blender.org: Hi, I think Carsten's proposal is the nicest way, even when a bit ugly. We can add a version patch in .blend files that sets this button active for all old .blends, but not active for newly created textures. -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.org www.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 19 Feb, 2011, at 23:47, Carsten Wartmann wrote: Am 19.02.2011 23:08, schrieb Dalai Felinto: I wonder if instead of a commandline it would be possible to do this conversion with Python. I'm not sure of the current status of bpy for image handling, but it would be neat to have an addon for that. My idea was having a Button inside the Texture Context, Image Tab (beneath the Normal Map Button) to use old Blender Normal maps. Carsten -- Carsten Wartmann: Autor - Dozent - 3D - Grafik Homepage: http://blenderbuch.de/ Das Blender-Buch: http://blenderbuch.de/redirect.html ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted
Make it standard please, nmaps are something that you usually share between softwares. no point in forcing headaches to users Daniel Salazar May your first born be a son and may your harvest be plentiful!! :) I could not agree more. That's exactly why this patch needs to go in asap. Normal maps are indeed typically exported between tools. 2011/2/22 Knapp magick.c...@gmail.com: Just provide an external tool or add-on to fix the files. Perhaps pop up a warning: this file has a broken bump-map, run XXX to fix it. On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Thomas Dinges blen...@dingto.de wrote: I wouldn't do a hackish button either, if it works correct as in 2.49 it's fine and all we need. Am 22.02.2011 19:33, schrieb Ton Roosendaal: Hi all, The situation is worse apparently; up to Blender 2.49 the normal maps were fine, but the newbump patch in 2.51 made red channel become badly inverted. Having it work like in 2.49 is of course correct. Brings up the question if we should provide a hackish button to support bad normal maps created in the alpha/beta period. Morton's Mario's proposal is to not do this. I agree, it only makes UI uglier... :) -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.org www.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 20 Feb, 2011, at 14:45, Dalai Felinto wrote: Instead of old Blender Normal maps couldn't it be invert color channels [tooltip: old Blender Normal Maps - invert red/green channels? Or Blender was really the only software out there using those inverted? I remember this being discussed a while ago (1year or +) but don't remember what was the outcome of it. -- Dalai 2011/2/20 Ton Roosendaalt...@blender.org: Hi, I think Carsten's proposal is the nicest way, even when a bit ugly. We can add a version patch in .blend files that sets this button active for all old .blends, but not active for newly created textures. -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.org www.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 19 Feb, 2011, at 23:47, Carsten Wartmann wrote: Am 19.02.2011 23:08, schrieb Dalai Felinto: I wonder if instead of a commandline it would be possible to do this conversion with Python. I'm not sure of the current status of bpy for image handling, but it would be neat to have an addon for that. My idea was having a Button inside the Texture Context, Image Tab (beneath the Normal Map Button) to use old Blender Normal maps. Carsten -- Carsten Wartmann: Autor - Dozent - 3D - Grafik Homepage: http://blenderbuch.de/ Das Blender-Buch: http://blenderbuch.de/redirect.html ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted
I also could not agree more. Some standardization here would get rid of plenty of headaches. To be clear, the step that I would like to avoid is under: GIMPing the image on this page: http://www.foro3d.com/f217/blender-normal-mapping-76567.html (It's basically just instructing to invert the green channel) http://www.foro3d.com/f217/blender-normal-mapping-76567.htmlI believe it worked this way in 2.49 and currently works this way also though I have not tested very recently. If I recall the results of the last mailing list conversation on this subject, the consensus was that there is no 'standard' on ways to do normal mapping so Blender's is as good as anybody else's, and is not technically 'wrong'. The problem is that most of the other apps have standardized in 'the other method'. I tried tracking the email thread down, but after about an hour of digging have given up. -Sean On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Morten Mikkelsen mikkels...@gmail.comwrote: Make it standard please, nmaps are something that you usually share between softwares. no point in forcing headaches to users Daniel Salazar May your first born be a son and may your harvest be plentiful!! :) I could not agree more. That's exactly why this patch needs to go in asap. Normal maps are indeed typically exported between tools. 2011/2/22 Knapp magick.c...@gmail.com: Just provide an external tool or add-on to fix the files. Perhaps pop up a warning: this file has a broken bump-map, run XXX to fix it. On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Thomas Dinges blen...@dingto.de wrote: I wouldn't do a hackish button either, if it works correct as in 2.49 it's fine and all we need. Am 22.02.2011 19:33, schrieb Ton Roosendaal: Hi all, The situation is worse apparently; up to Blender 2.49 the normal maps were fine, but the newbump patch in 2.51 made red channel become badly inverted. Having it work like in 2.49 is of course correct. Brings up the question if we should provide a hackish button to support bad normal maps created in the alpha/beta period. Morton's Mario's proposal is to not do this. I agree, it only makes UI uglier... :) -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.org www.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 20 Feb, 2011, at 14:45, Dalai Felinto wrote: Instead of old Blender Normal maps couldn't it be invert color channels [tooltip: old Blender Normal Maps - invert red/green channels? Or Blender was really the only software out there using those inverted? I remember this being discussed a while ago (1year or +) but don't remember what was the outcome of it. -- Dalai 2011/2/20 Ton Roosendaalt...@blender.org: Hi, I think Carsten's proposal is the nicest way, even when a bit ugly. We can add a version patch in .blend files that sets this button active for all old .blends, but not active for newly created textures. -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.org www.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 19 Feb, 2011, at 23:47, Carsten Wartmann wrote: Am 19.02.2011 23:08, schrieb Dalai Felinto: I wonder if instead of a commandline it would be possible to do this conversion with Python. I'm not sure of the current status of bpy for image handling, but it would be neat to have an addon for that. My idea was having a Button inside the Texture Context, Image Tab (beneath the Normal Map Button) to use old Blender Normal maps. Carsten -- Carsten Wartmann: Autor - Dozent - 3D - Grafik Homepage: http://blenderbuch.de/ Das Blender-Buch: http://blenderbuch.de/redirect.html ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers --
Re: [Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted
Before changing everything again, can we go back to the revision that introduced the change in the first place and maybe understand why it was done? There was probably a reason, even if it wasn't a good one, understanding why might be useful. Martin --- On Tue, 2/22/11, Sean Olson seanol...@gmail.com wrote: From: Sean Olson seanol...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted To: bf-blender developers bf-committers@blender.org Received: Tuesday, February 22, 2011, 4:35 PM I also could not agree more. Some standardization here would get rid of plenty of headaches. To be clear, the step that I would like to avoid is under: GIMPing the image on this page: http://www.foro3d.com/f217/blender-normal-mapping-76567.html (It's basically just instructing to invert the green channel) http://www.foro3d.com/f217/blender-normal-mapping-76567.htmlI believe it worked this way in 2.49 and currently works this way also though I have not tested very recently. If I recall the results of the last mailing list conversation on this subject, the consensus was that there is no 'standard' on ways to do normal mapping so Blender's is as good as anybody else's, and is not technically 'wrong'. The problem is that most of the other apps have standardized in 'the other method'. I tried tracking the email thread down, but after about an hour of digging have given up. -Sean On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Morten Mikkelsen mikkels...@gmail.comwrote: Make it standard please, nmaps are something that you usually share between softwares. no point in forcing headaches to users Daniel Salazar May your first born be a son and may your harvest be plentiful!! :) I could not agree more. That's exactly why this patch needs to go in asap. Normal maps are indeed typically exported between tools. 2011/2/22 Knapp magick.c...@gmail.com: Just provide an external tool or add-on to fix the files. Perhaps pop up a warning: this file has a broken bump-map, run XXX to fix it. On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Thomas Dinges blen...@dingto.de wrote: I wouldn't do a hackish button either, if it works correct as in 2.49 it's fine and all we need. Am 22.02.2011 19:33, schrieb Ton Roosendaal: Hi all, The situation is worse apparently; up to Blender 2.49 the normal maps were fine, but the newbump patch in 2.51 made red channel become badly inverted. Having it work like in 2.49 is of course correct. Brings up the question if we should provide a hackish button to support bad normal maps created in the alpha/beta period. Morton's Mario's proposal is to not do this. I agree, it only makes UI uglier... :) -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.org www.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 20 Feb, 2011, at 14:45, Dalai Felinto wrote: Instead of old Blender Normal maps couldn't it be invert color channels [tooltip: old Blender Normal Maps - invert red/green channels? Or Blender was really the only software out there using those inverted? I remember this being discussed a while ago (1year or +) but don't remember what was the outcome of it. -- Dalai 2011/2/20 Ton Roosendaalt...@blender.org: Hi, I think Carsten's proposal is the nicest way, even when a bit ugly. We can add a version patch in .blend files that sets this button active for all old .blends, but not active for newly created textures. -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.org www.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 19 Feb, 2011, at 23:47, Carsten Wartmann wrote: Am 19.02.2011 23:08, schrieb Dalai Felinto: I wonder if instead of a commandline it would be possible to do this conversion with Python. I'm not sure of the current status of bpy for image handling, but it would be neat to have an addon for that. My idea was having a Button inside the Texture Context, Image Tab (beneath the Normal Map Button) to use old Blender Normal maps. Carsten -- Carsten Wartmann: Autor - Dozent - 3D - Grafik Homepage: http://blenderbuch.de/ Das Blender-Buch: http://blenderbuch.de/redirect.html ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted
Before changing everything again, can we go back to the revision that introduced the change in the first place and maybe understand why it was done? There was probably a reason, even if it wasn't a good one, understanding why might be useful. We already know exactly what is going on. We know exactly how and why the channels have to be set. I promise you. It will conform to the standard that is most common. The old spaces didn't support a real binormal (meaning +/- sign was not maintained). It was rather broken as it was. It was almost luck whether you got one thing or another. This is also why it was essentially useless for exporting any normal map out of blender. A new system has already been put in place which replaces the generated tangent spaces. These support mirroring and a sign +/-1 to create a bitangent with the correct orientation. This is not something mindlessly thrown in at the last minute. Martin --- On Tue, 2/22/11, Sean Olson seanol...@gmail.com wrote: From: Sean Olson seanol...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted To: bf-blender developers bf-committers@blender.org Received: Tuesday, February 22, 2011, 4:35 PM I also could not agree more. Some standardization here would get rid of plenty of headaches. To be clear, the step that I would like to avoid is under: GIMPing the image on this page: http://www.foro3d.com/f217/blender-normal-mapping-76567.html (It's basically just instructing to invert the green channel) http://www.foro3d.com/f217/blender-normal-mapping-76567.htmlI believe it worked this way in 2.49 and currently works this way also though I have not tested very recently. If I recall the results of the last mailing list conversation on this subject, the consensus was that there is no 'standard' on ways to do normal mapping so Blender's is as good as anybody else's, and is not technically 'wrong'. The problem is that most of the other apps have standardized in 'the other method'. I tried tracking the email thread down, but after about an hour of digging have given up. -Sean On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Morten Mikkelsen mikkels...@gmail.com wrote: Make it standard please, nmaps are something that you usually share between softwares. no point in forcing headaches to users Daniel Salazar May your first born be a son and may your harvest be plentiful!! :) I could not agree more. That's exactly why this patch needs to go in asap. Normal maps are indeed typically exported between tools. 2011/2/22 Knapp magick.c...@gmail.com: Just provide an external tool or add-on to fix the files. Perhaps pop up a warning: this file has a broken bump-map, run XXX to fix it. On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Thomas Dinges blen...@dingto.de wrote: I wouldn't do a hackish button either, if it works correct as in 2.49 it's fine and all we need. Am 22.02.2011 19:33, schrieb Ton Roosendaal: Hi all, The situation is worse apparently; up to Blender 2.49 the normal maps were fine, but the newbump patch in 2.51 made red channel become badly inverted. Having it work like in 2.49 is of course correct. Brings up the question if we should provide a hackish button to support bad normal maps created in the alpha/beta period. Morton's Mario's proposal is to not do this. I agree, it only makes UI uglier... :) -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.org www.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 20 Feb, 2011, at 14:45, Dalai Felinto wrote: Instead of old Blender Normal maps couldn't it be invert color channels [tooltip: old Blender Normal Maps - invert red/green channels? Or Blender was really the only software out there using those inverted? I remember this being discussed a while ago (1year or +) but don't remember what was the outcome of it. -- Dalai 2011/2/20 Ton Roosendaalt...@blender.org: Hi, I think Carsten's proposal is the nicest way, even when a bit ugly. We can add a version patch in .blend files that sets this button active for all old .blends, but not active for newly created textures. -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.org www.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 19
Re: [Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted
further I plan to add [invert image colors] [invert red channel] [invert green channel] [invert blue channel] [invert alpha channel] ??? operators to the image editor. they can be used to adjust old bakes or imported normalmaps and might even prove useful under other circumstances. cheers, mario On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Morten Mikkelsen mikkels...@gmail.com wrote: Before changing everything again, can we go back to the revision that introduced the change in the first place and maybe understand why it was done? There was probably a reason, even if it wasn't a good one, understanding why might be useful. We already know exactly what is going on. We know exactly how and why the channels have to be set. I promise you. It will conform to the standard that is most common. The old spaces didn't support a real binormal (meaning +/- sign was not maintained). It was rather broken as it was. It was almost luck whether you got one thing or another. This is also why it was essentially useless for exporting any normal map out of blender. A new system has already been put in place which replaces the generated tangent spaces. These support mirroring and a sign +/-1 to create a bitangent with the correct orientation. This is not something mindlessly thrown in at the last minute. Martin --- On Tue, 2/22/11, Sean Olson seanol...@gmail.com wrote: From: Sean Olson seanol...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted To: bf-blender developers bf-committers@blender.org Received: Tuesday, February 22, 2011, 4:35 PM I also could not agree more. Some standardization here would get rid of plenty of headaches. To be clear, the step that I would like to avoid is under: GIMPing the image on this page: http://www.foro3d.com/f217/blender-normal-mapping-76567.html (It's basically just instructing to invert the green channel) http://www.foro3d.com/f217/blender-normal-mapping-76567.htmlI believe it worked this way in 2.49 and currently works this way also though I have not tested very recently. If I recall the results of the last mailing list conversation on this subject, the consensus was that there is no 'standard' on ways to do normal mapping so Blender's is as good as anybody else's, and is not technically 'wrong'. The problem is that most of the other apps have standardized in 'the other method'. I tried tracking the email thread down, but after about an hour of digging have given up. -Sean On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Morten Mikkelsen mikkels...@gmail.com wrote: Make it standard please, nmaps are something that you usually share between softwares. no point in forcing headaches to users Daniel Salazar May your first born be a son and may your harvest be plentiful!! :) I could not agree more. That's exactly why this patch needs to go in asap. Normal maps are indeed typically exported between tools. 2011/2/22 Knapp magick.c...@gmail.com: Just provide an external tool or add-on to fix the files. Perhaps pop up a warning: this file has a broken bump-map, run XXX to fix it. On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Thomas Dinges blen...@dingto.de wrote: I wouldn't do a hackish button either, if it works correct as in 2.49 it's fine and all we need. Am 22.02.2011 19:33, schrieb Ton Roosendaal: Hi all, The situation is worse apparently; up to Blender 2.49 the normal maps were fine, but the newbump patch in 2.51 made red channel become badly inverted. Having it work like in 2.49 is of course correct. Brings up the question if we should provide a hackish button to support bad normal maps created in the alpha/beta period. Morton's Mario's proposal is to not do this. I agree, it only makes UI uglier... :) -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.org www.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 20 Feb, 2011, at 14:45, Dalai Felinto wrote: Instead of old Blender Normal maps couldn't it be invert color channels [tooltip: old Blender Normal Maps - invert red/green channels? Or Blender was really the only software out there using those inverted? I remember this being discussed a while ago (1year or +) but don't remember what was the outcome of it. -- Dalai 2011/2/20 Ton Roosendaalt...@blender.org: Hi, I think Carsten's proposal is the nicest way, even when a bit ugly. We can add a version patch in .blend files that sets
Re: [Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted
I recall having to do that too Daniel. It seems like something that I have to re-look-up every time I'm trying a workflow with outside software and normal maps. -Sean On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 2:24 PM, Daniel Salazar - 3Developer.com zan...@gmail.com wrote: Do I remember right or you not only had to invert some channels but switch ones? like green with red or something? I only had to do this once (thankfully) Daniel Salazar www.3developer.com ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted
Hi, I think Carsten's proposal is the nicest way, even when a bit ugly. We can add a version patch in .blend files that sets this button active for all old .blends, but not active for newly created textures. -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.orgwww.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 19 Feb, 2011, at 23:47, Carsten Wartmann wrote: Am 19.02.2011 23:08, schrieb Dalai Felinto: I wonder if instead of a commandline it would be possible to do this conversion with Python. I'm not sure of the current status of bpy for image handling, but it would be neat to have an addon for that. My idea was having a Button inside the Texture Context, Image Tab (beneath the Normal Map Button) to use old Blender Normal maps. Carsten -- Carsten Wartmann: Autor - Dozent - 3D - Grafik Homepage: http://blenderbuch.de/ Das Blender-Buch: http://blenderbuch.de/redirect.html ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted
Instead of old Blender Normal maps couldn't it be invert color channels [tooltip: old Blender Normal Maps - invert red/green channels? Or Blender was really the only software out there using those inverted? I remember this being discussed a while ago (1year or +) but don't remember what was the outcome of it. -- Dalai 2011/2/20 Ton Roosendaal t...@blender.org: Hi, I think Carsten's proposal is the nicest way, even when a bit ugly. We can add a version patch in .blend files that sets this button active for all old .blends, but not active for newly created textures. -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.org www.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 19 Feb, 2011, at 23:47, Carsten Wartmann wrote: Am 19.02.2011 23:08, schrieb Dalai Felinto: I wonder if instead of a commandline it would be possible to do this conversion with Python. I'm not sure of the current status of bpy for image handling, but it would be neat to have an addon for that. My idea was having a Button inside the Texture Context, Image Tab (beneath the Normal Map Button) to use old Blender Normal maps. Carsten -- Carsten Wartmann: Autor - Dozent - 3D - Grafik Homepage: http://blenderbuch.de/ Das Blender-Buch: http://blenderbuch.de/redirect.html ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
[Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted
Hi all, Blender is exporting normal maps with red and green channel inverted relative to the geometry we actually export with our exporters and I would very much like to fix this. This would make blender export normal maps which are very similar to most tools out there and it would make sense to people trying to use them in their own engines. What we are talking about is a very minor tweak. There's one place that writes them and two places that read them. I would only have to do a minor adjustment there. It will be different from maps baked with blender previously but then that ship has already sailed when we gave normal maps the overhaul that we did to support mirroring, order-independence of faces, vertices on faces, welding etc. So when you think about it this is a relatively minor tweak in comparison. So I am thinking might as well do it proper. Kaito has asked me to ask you guys if you are ok with it? Here's hoping for the best :) Thanks, Morten, ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted
Am 19.02.2011 16:22, schrieb Morten Mikkelsen: Hi all, Blender is exporting normal maps with red and green channel inverted relative to the geometry we actually export with our exporters and I would very much like to fix this. This would make blender export normal maps which are very similar to most tools out there and it would make sense to people trying to use them in their own engines. Good! It will be different from maps baked with blender previously but then that This does mean that old scenes render incorrect? Just to clarify. Or will there be some compatibility switch? Carsten Kaito has asked me to ask you guys if you are ok with it? Who's that guy hanging around there all the time? ;-) -- Carsten Wartmann: Autor - Dozent - 3D - Grafik Homepage: http://blenderbuch.de/ Das Blender-Buch: http://blenderbuch.de/redirect.html ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted
This does mean that old scenes render incorrect? Just to clarify. Or will there be some compatibility switch? Mario (lmg) suggests we'll throw in a commandline for how to do batch convert in image magic. The inversion we're talking about corresponds to ctrl+i in photoshop btw. It's essentially (in 8 bit): val_new = 255 - val_cur; applied to red and green. This will make the normals stored in the map correspond to tangent space generated from the geometry we actually export in all of our exporters. Like I said since we have already done an overhaul on how normal maps work to get them to work properly and support mirroring, face/face verts order-independence, welding independence etc. We might as well be sure to get it right now. Seems like now or never, And this is a small adjustment on the change that is already in anyway. Cheers, Morten. On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 7:51 AM, Carsten Wartmann c...@blenderbuch.de wrote: Am 19.02.2011 16:22, schrieb Morten Mikkelsen: Hi all, Blender is exporting normal maps with red and green channel inverted relative to the geometry we actually export with our exporters and I would very much like to fix this. This would make blender export normal maps which are very similar to most tools out there and it would make sense to people trying to use them in their own engines. Good! It will be different from maps baked with blender previously but then that This does mean that old scenes render incorrect? Just to clarify. Or will there be some compatibility switch? Carsten Kaito has asked me to ask you guys if you are ok with it? Who's that guy hanging around there all the time? ;-) -- Carsten Wartmann: Autor - Dozent - 3D - Grafik Homepage: http://blenderbuch.de/ Das Blender-Buch: http://blenderbuch.de/redirect.html ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted
I wonder if instead of a commandline it would be possible to do this conversion with Python. I'm not sure of the current status of bpy for image handling, but it would be neat to have an addon for that. my 2 cents, Dalai 2011/2/19 Morten Mikkelsen mikkels...@gmail.com: This does mean that old scenes render incorrect? Just to clarify. Or will there be some compatibility switch? Mario (lmg) suggests we'll throw in a commandline for how to do batch convert in image magic. The inversion we're talking about corresponds to ctrl+i in photoshop btw. It's essentially (in 8 bit): val_new = 255 - val_cur; applied to red and green. This will make the normals stored in the map correspond to tangent space generated from the geometry we actually export in all of our exporters. Like I said since we have already done an overhaul on how normal maps work to get them to work properly and support mirroring, face/face verts order-independence, welding independence etc. We might as well be sure to get it right now. Seems like now or never, And this is a small adjustment on the change that is already in anyway. Cheers, Morten. On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 7:51 AM, Carsten Wartmann c...@blenderbuch.de wrote: Am 19.02.2011 16:22, schrieb Morten Mikkelsen: Hi all, Blender is exporting normal maps with red and green channel inverted relative to the geometry we actually export with our exporters and I would very much like to fix this. This would make blender export normal maps which are very similar to most tools out there and it would make sense to people trying to use them in their own engines. Good! It will be different from maps baked with blender previously but then that This does mean that old scenes render incorrect? Just to clarify. Or will there be some compatibility switch? Carsten Kaito has asked me to ask you guys if you are ok with it? Who's that guy hanging around there all the time? ;-) -- Carsten Wartmann: Autor - Dozent - 3D - Grafik Homepage: http://blenderbuch.de/ Das Blender-Buch: http://blenderbuch.de/redirect.html ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] normal maps, red/green channel inverted
Am 19.02.2011 23:08, schrieb Dalai Felinto: I wonder if instead of a commandline it would be possible to do this conversion with Python. I'm not sure of the current status of bpy for image handling, but it would be neat to have an addon for that. My idea was having a Button inside the Texture Context, Image Tab (beneath the Normal Map Button) to use old Blender Normal maps. Carsten -- Carsten Wartmann: Autor - Dozent - 3D - Grafik Homepage: http://blenderbuch.de/ Das Blender-Buch: http://blenderbuch.de/redirect.html ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
