Re: [Bf-committers] Blender App Central / Add-on Manager
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 2:34 PM, David Jeske dav...@gmail.com wrote: HOWEVER, keep in mind that centralizing an addon 'appstore', especially one that is accessible directly within a product like blender.. creates an increased security responsibility. Blender addons are python, and thus they can do anything to your computer when run. Existance in a centralized appstore tends to imply trust that is not deserved. If submissions are open, malacious addons can be registered. Android/chrome have security models trapping addons into sandboxes to attempt to control this potential vulnerability. (I.e. a google chrome addon is not allowed access arbitrary files on your computer) Screened submissions (Maybe anything that's in the contrib tracker) and some kind of md5 checksum authentication for downloading scripts could solve part of that, I know nothing about sandboxing. This way users would easily be able to get the latest version of their scripts without doing any command line stuff, and that's a big benefit in itself. Davis ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Blender App Central / Add-on Manager
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Davis Sorenson davis.soren...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 2:34 PM, David Jeske dav...@gmail.com wrote: HOWEVER, keep in mind that centralizing an addon 'appstore', especially one that is accessible directly within a product like blender.. creates an increased security responsibility. Blender addons are python, and thus they can do anything to your computer when run. Existance in a centralized appstore tends to imply trust that is not deserved. If submissions are open, malacious addons can be registered. Android/chrome have security models trapping addons into sandboxes to attempt to control this potential vulnerability. (I.e. a google chrome addon is not allowed access arbitrary files on your computer) Screened submissions (Maybe anything that's in the contrib tracker) and some kind of md5 checksum authentication for downloading scripts could solve part of that, I know nothing about sandboxing. This way users would easily be able to get the latest version of their scripts without doing any command line stuff, and that's a big benefit in itself. Davis Correct me if I am wrong but my take on the last HUGE talk about security was that hackers can hack blender if they really want to and there is not much that can be done about it, so we will just accept the risks while trying to minimize them. Seems like the same thing applies here. -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Blender App Central / Add-on Manager
On Jan 10, 2012 8:18 AM, Yousef Hurfoush ba...@msn.com wrote: i think the problem isn't in the wiki or bf-extensions or a new app center it relies on the scripters theme selfs to submit to these repositories, maybe finding some one to do the missing job as a solution would be good? Centralized repositories that allow easy seach/install tend to motivate devs (scripters) to publish. Google chrome extension publishing is probably a good demonstration for a more 'scripter friendly' appstore. Chrome itself contains the tools necessary to wrap up and package an addon, making it easy for scripters. Addons remain self contained custom-extension zip archives even when installed, making management easier. HOWEVER, keep in mind that centralizing an addon 'appstore', especially one that is accessible directly within a product like blender.. creates an increased security responsibility. Blender addons are python, and thus they can do anything to your computer when run. Existance in a centralized appstore tends to imply trust that is not deserved. If submissions are open, malacious addons can be registered. Android/chrome have security models trapping addons into sandboxes to attempt to control this potential vulnerability. (I.e. a google chrome addon is not allowed access arbitrary files on your computer) ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Blender App Central / Add-on Manager
It would be good to avoid having to write our own linux-distro style packaging system, if we can keep it simple+workable we give ourselves a lot less problems. - Campbell IMOHO; I think there are two good systems that we can use as our models. One is the Linux system like Ubuntu with the store or repository. It has the advantage of being easy to use and a repository means that everything is in one place. I would hate do see it be like MS with open source where you have to go all over to find things and half don't work and it is loaded with trojans. The other is the Firefox system of add-ons. Both systems are easy to use and centralized. The other problem is that most add-ons are not well known. I personally don't know what most of the add-ons in preferences do and they are easy to activate and use. I guess this comes back to the documentation problems that exist etc. -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Blender App Central / Add-on Manager
On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 10:42 PM, Campbell Barton ideasma...@gmail.com wrote: Personally I'd like whatever system we use to be a front-end to source control (so devs commit our extension repo and magically get listed) The proposal made by Moraes is very interesting imho. And most of the information is already available, as I show in this mockup: http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=24170 Python can be used to traverse the SVN repository and find all scripts. It doesn't even need to load the entire files, as it just needs the header information. If this is found to be a too large strain on the server, it might also be possible to create a single file containing all headers, which is updated once a day or on every commit. But this probably isn't necessary yet. For the expanded information of each script: it can be retrieved from the wiki and the extensions tracker. Most addons already use a standard template on the wiki, which eases this process even further. This entire system has advantages for both artists and coders. Script writers don't need to take any addtional steps to publish their addons (or presets, themes, etc.) as the system uses the infrastructure that is currently already in place. And secondly it exposes their work to a larger group of users. For artists the main advantage is an improvement in the ease of use. The only two features that would need an expanded infrastructure are the voting system and artist profiles that store their addon collection. But it might be a good idea to first get the basics done (with actual working code) and then add additional features. - Bart ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Blender App Central / Add-on Manager
I think there are two good systems that we can use as our models. One is the Linux system like Ubuntu with the store or repository. It has the advantage of being easy to use and a repository means that everything is in one place. I would hate do see it be like MS with open source where you have to go all over to find things and half don't work and it is loaded with trojans. The other is the Firefox system of add-ons. Both systems are easy to use and centralized. i think the problem isn't in the wiki or bf-extensions or a new app center it relies on the scripters theme selfs to submit to these repositories, maybe finding some one to do the missing job as a solution would be good? The other problem is that most add-ons are not well known. I personally don't know what most of the add-ons in preferences do and they are easy to activate and use. I guess this comes back to the documentation problems that exist etc. adding a simple help system to the addons is easy, especially after the new xml commits Regards Yousef Harfoush ba...@msn.com ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Blender App Central / Add-on Manager
Hi Moraes, Good you remind us, and a promising concept this... it is probably well possible to make this work inside a browser and somehow hook it up via python with Blender itself. Makes it more feasible to implement too. Next steps could also be to add import/exporters, themes, default startup blends, material repositories, node groups... or then even docs, tutorials, video tuts? And then the obvious question pops up But would it allow commercial offers too?. I am well aware of the success of Mac's appstore, Android Market and Ubuntu Centre. It's something we could carefully look into and investigate. Blender Foundation/Instutute is doing good bizz still selling dvds and books, but that won't last forever. Selling (licensed) digital data is not something BF itself should do though, we have a mission to keep things free and open. However; there must be ways to cooperate with a 'closed' world, especially if the boundary is clear, and when the spirit of our project is not in danger (Blender as a full functional open and free environment for 3d creation). -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.orgwww.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 9 Jan, 2012, at 14:22, Mango Jambo wrote: Hi all, At Blender Pro, the Blender conference Brazil, I was talking to Ton, Dalai, Pablo Vasquez and other artists about a great idea for Blender: the Blender Addon/App Central. *The problem today:* - It is hard to find an add-on if you never did before; - Even if you did it, you need to find it again: Blender.org Download wiki Python Scripts (add-ons?) Script Catalog; - Some of them gives an outside link to download, like blenderartist, dropbox, etc.; - To install you need to Download and then install by Blender Add-on install button or copy straight to the add-on folder (and find this folder). Some Add-ons has folders and other files, so the install button doesn't work for it; - We never know if there is a new add-on version (Contrib and External); - We don't know which add-ons are most downloaded or even users feedback about it. Well, there is some Blenderartists threads, but nothing more official about it; - Every time we need to install Blender in another computer, we need to copy/download add-ons again. Some people makes use of Dropbox for it, or copy the Blender user Preferences Folder, but it is not a casual task (mainly for artists, thrust me! ;] ); *Proposal* To transform the current Script Catalog into a friendly and intuitive Add-on/App Manager inside Blender, showing votes, comments, updates, favorites, etc. and, optionally, being able to log-in and automatically install my add-ons in another computer/Blender installation. An image is better than a thousand words: http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=24117 (initial layout proposal from the designer and my friend Allan Carvalho) Probably being inside Blender it should be more Blender colors and layout like. *Goals* - To make add-ons looks more friendly, like apps. This could attract more users and more developers; - Being able to log-in for easier management and consistence on any user machine(laptop, home and work pc), like in Google Chrome. This could work for preferences too; - To have vote and comments, increasing user participation, feedback and sharing; - To manage channes (repositories), like on Ubuntu: Official and Partner channels (to exempt Blender Foundation Servers from some Contrib Scripts, how already is today); *References* - https://chrome.google.com/webstore - Unity Store; - Android Market. The big problem is: I can´t code! So I need help, ideas, suggestions from you developers. There is more ideas that I want to discuss about it, so lets keep it warm if you like it! :) Cheers Moraes Junior - aka mangojambo Animator 3D Artist +55 43 88133399 http://www.oniria.com.br ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Blender App Central / Add-on Manager
Another managment overlay for scripts? The current scheme is already way too bureaucratic, wikipages, script tracker, svn,... all sorts of conventions. It's hard what you have to care about, when you just want to maintain a simple script. aurel On 9 January 2012 15:23, Ton Roosendaal t...@blender.org wrote: Hi Moraes, Good you remind us, and a promising concept this... it is probably well possible to make this work inside a browser and somehow hook it up via python with Blender itself. Makes it more feasible to implement too. Next steps could also be to add import/exporters, themes, default startup blends, material repositories, node groups... or then even docs, tutorials, video tuts? And then the obvious question pops up But would it allow commercial offers too?. I am well aware of the success of Mac's appstore, Android Market and Ubuntu Centre. It's something we could carefully look into and investigate. Blender Foundation/Instutute is doing good bizz still selling dvds and books, but that won't last forever. Selling (licensed) digital data is not something BF itself should do though, we have a mission to keep things free and open. However; there must be ways to cooperate with a 'closed' world, especially if the boundary is clear, and when the spirit of our project is not in danger (Blender as a full functional open and free environment for 3d creation). -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.org www.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 9 Jan, 2012, at 14:22, Mango Jambo wrote: Hi all, At Blender Pro, the Blender conference Brazil, I was talking to Ton, Dalai, Pablo Vasquez and other artists about a great idea for Blender: the Blender Addon/App Central. *The problem today:* - It is hard to find an add-on if you never did before; - Even if you did it, you need to find it again: Blender.org Download wiki Python Scripts (add-ons?) Script Catalog; - Some of them gives an outside link to download, like blenderartist, dropbox, etc.; - To install you need to Download and then install by Blender Add-on install button or copy straight to the add-on folder (and find this folder). Some Add-ons has folders and other files, so the install button doesn't work for it; - We never know if there is a new add-on version (Contrib and External); - We don't know which add-ons are most downloaded or even users feedback about it. Well, there is some Blenderartists threads, but nothing more official about it; - Every time we need to install Blender in another computer, we need to copy/download add-ons again. Some people makes use of Dropbox for it, or copy the Blender user Preferences Folder, but it is not a casual task (mainly for artists, thrust me! ;] ); *Proposal* To transform the current Script Catalog into a friendly and intuitive Add-on/App Manager inside Blender, showing votes, comments, updates, favorites, etc. and, optionally, being able to log-in and automatically install my add-ons in another computer/Blender installation. An image is better than a thousand words: http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=24117 (initial layout proposal from the designer and my friend Allan Carvalho) Probably being inside Blender it should be more Blender colors and layout like. *Goals* - To make add-ons looks more friendly, like apps. This could attract more users and more developers; - Being able to log-in for easier management and consistence on any user machine(laptop, home and work pc), like in Google Chrome. This could work for preferences too; - To have vote and comments, increasing user participation, feedback and sharing; - To manage channes (repositories), like on Ubuntu: Official and Partner channels (to exempt Blender Foundation Servers from some Contrib Scripts, how already is today); *References* - https://chrome.google.com/webstore - Unity Store; - Android Market. The big problem is: I can´t code! So I need help, ideas, suggestions from you developers. There is more ideas that I want to discuss about it, so lets keep it warm if you like it! :) Cheers Moraes Junior - aka mangojambo Animator 3D Artist +55 43 88133399 http://www.oniria.com.br ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Blender App Central / Add-on Manager
I must disagree with you on that All add-ons or scripts are for users, not for developers. If I want my addon to be used only by me - I wouldn't have made it public in a first place. Believe it or not, but current system is way too difficult for artists. Artists don't have a clue what SVN and other such things are and they will never learn because this is not their field. There are several scripts or addons that people don't know about because it's simply impossible to find them for human being. If I know how to write a script, decided to maintain it - it shouldn't be that hard to follow some rules. I personally maintain a simple script and don't find that very hard to take care about all required stuff. Script without documentation is worth absolutely nothing, no matter how fantastic it is. If it can be used only by its developer? Who needs it? Cheers Bartek Skorupa On 2012-01-09, at 16:19, Aurel W. wrote: Another managment overlay for scripts? The current scheme is already way too bureaucratic, wikipages, script tracker, svn,... all sorts of conventions. It's hard what you have to care about, when you just want to maintain a simple script. aurel On 9 January 2012 15:23, Ton Roosendaal t...@blender.org wrote: Hi Moraes, Good you remind us, and a promising concept this... it is probably well possible to make this work inside a browser and somehow hook it up via python with Blender itself. Makes it more feasible to implement too. Next steps could also be to add import/exporters, themes, default startup blends, material repositories, node groups... or then even docs, tutorials, video tuts? And then the obvious question pops up But would it allow commercial offers too?. I am well aware of the success of Mac's appstore, Android Market and Ubuntu Centre. It's something we could carefully look into and investigate. Blender Foundation/Instutute is doing good bizz still selling dvds and books, but that won't last forever. Selling (licensed) digital data is not something BF itself should do though, we have a mission to keep things free and open. However; there must be ways to cooperate with a 'closed' world, especially if the boundary is clear, and when the spirit of our project is not in danger (Blender as a full functional open and free environment for 3d creation). -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.orgwww.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 9 Jan, 2012, at 14:22, Mango Jambo wrote: Hi all, At Blender Pro, the Blender conference Brazil, I was talking to Ton, Dalai, Pablo Vasquez and other artists about a great idea for Blender: the Blender Addon/App Central. *The problem today:* - It is hard to find an add-on if you never did before; - Even if you did it, you need to find it again: Blender.org Download wiki Python Scripts (add-ons?) Script Catalog; - Some of them gives an outside link to download, like blenderartist, dropbox, etc.; - To install you need to Download and then install by Blender Add-on install button or copy straight to the add-on folder (and find this folder). Some Add-ons has folders and other files, so the install button doesn't work for it; - We never know if there is a new add-on version (Contrib and External); - We don't know which add-ons are most downloaded or even users feedback about it. Well, there is some Blenderartists threads, but nothing more official about it; - Every time we need to install Blender in another computer, we need to copy/download add-ons again. Some people makes use of Dropbox for it, or copy the Blender user Preferences Folder, but it is not a casual task (mainly for artists, thrust me! ;] ); *Proposal* To transform the current Script Catalog into a friendly and intuitive Add-on/App Manager inside Blender, showing votes, comments, updates, favorites, etc. and, optionally, being able to log-in and automatically install my add-ons in another computer/Blender installation. An image is better than a thousand words: http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=24117 (initial layout proposal from the designer and my friend Allan Carvalho) Probably being inside Blender it should be more Blender colors and layout like. *Goals* - To make add-ons looks more friendly, like apps. This could attract more users and more developers; - Being able to log-in for easier management and consistence on any user machine(laptop, home and work pc), like in Google Chrome. This could work for preferences too; - To have vote and comments, increasing user participation, feedback and sharing; - To manage channes (repositories), like on Ubuntu: Official and Partner channels (to exempt Blender Foundation Servers from some Contrib Scripts, how already is
Re: [Bf-committers] Blender App Central / Add-on Manager
Hi. RE: wiki --- It always amuses|depresses me when I hear talking like that about the wiki. Not that I'm a mediawiki fanboy (and I mean it) but let's face it: millions of people use Wikipedia to _communicate_, and I don't hear them lament as much as I hear in the blender circles. The wiki syntax is very simple and you hardly need to use deep/nerdy stuff to express your idea or knowledge. See http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Contents#Editing to get going (avoid the advanced section, you don't really need it to write simple text). Even if it was a bit more complex (and as you can see it's not) from people that use Blender I'd expect it's a snap. IMHO it has more to do with some people in these circles being (or feeling :P) artists and hence having a natural sense of rejection towards hierarchies/organization/structure and (oh my!) rules. I can understand that, and writing documentation is boring and not fun, but it's the act of documenting being boring, not the tool per-se. Long story short, IMHO it's just a pre-concept (or in many cases, lazyness) stopping you from using the wiki. RE: addons --- There has been discussion and a proposal for a similar project, see http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/User:Mindrones/Bf-extensions/External_addons but for a lack of time it just didn't happened yet. Not perfect but still I provide the link as a reference in case it can be useful. Here again, I'm pretty much amused (but again also quite depressed) when I hear people lamenting the current situation of bf-extensions repository. Try to do a leap back to 3 years ago and you'll understand what I mean. Even if you were lucky enough to find the script you wanted in google, you had to report bugs to the developer in mail or via forum, and the fix was uploaded to some personal website or worst, on some sharing site (which is the reason why we deleted all the external links from scripts when we started): most of them were just broken. So, again, IMHO it's just a pre-concept that things are so awful in bf-extensions. I don't like the idea of having separate repositories from the one in BF svn, and pretending that they become official (distributed in or through blender), for the simple reason that if you can put work into those projects you could instead put effort in the BF repository project, and help improve stuff, review scripts, provide patches, gather people, explain some basic rules, spread the word, etc: it would grow a lot faster and healthier. Bf-extensions is not perfect, and yeah there are some rules, but they have been decided based on common sense and they work well if, as said in a previous mails, you want to share with the public. Regards, Luca ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Blender App Central / Add-on Manager
I would just like to point out that listing a script into wiki pages does not take much time! i know (probably half an hour to write good docs), but tell that to the scripters! (how are you explaining that there are too many scripts not in the wiki) also bf-extensions does have some rules, makes you waiting for approval to include it in contrib-addons and that alone could take weeks or months, instead of submitting directly. Long story short, IMHO it's just a pre-concept (or in many cases, lazyness) stopping you from using the wiki. exactly! NOW how a app central would change that? Regards Yousef Harfoush ba...@msn.com ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Blender App Central / Add-on Manager
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 8:23 AM, Yousef Hurfoush ba...@msn.com wrote: I would just like to point out that listing a script into wiki pages does not take much time! i know (probably half an hour to write good docs), but tell that to the scripters! (how are you explaining that there are too many scripts not in the wiki) also bf-extensions does have some rules, makes you waiting for approval to include it in contrib-addons and that alone could take weeks or months, instead of submitting directly. IMHO _this_ is the problem. currently I don't spend enough time on script review, but there are also not many other people peer-reviewing addons which would help a lot. I also miss users testing new addons and kicking devs to review, it seems all to common for someone to post their addon into our extensions upload section and nothing happens :(, To alleviate this problem we have been giving developers access to `contrib`, where they can develop their script and users can test - so the review process happens when moving from contrib to trunk, which is working OK but we still have a backlog of un-reviewed addons :S. By comparison wiki docs are less of an issue IMHO, to begin with they can have a template and add a paragraph of text explaining what the script does. IMHO contrib scripts dont need to have a wiki page - to lower the barrier of entry a bit especially if devs didnt use a wiki before. To sum up - we need to get better at reviewing work quick - an extension repo is solving a different problem. Long story short, IMHO it's just a pre-concept (or in many cases, lazyness) stopping you from using the wiki. exactly! NOW how a app central would change that? Regards Yousef Harfoush ba...@msn.com ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers -- - Campbell ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
